This is an effort on my part to consolidate the discussion of Paladins. I have been trying to keep up with all the other ideas that have been coming up over the last few days with the release but at this point it has become impossible. So I imagine that Jason and the team are having a hell of a time trying to read this plus everything else. So here we are one properly labled and stated thread for this subject and all contained within.
Non-Issues:
Paladin d8 is a typo, it is d10.
Paladin Alignment, I would like it but i dont see it happening.
Issues:
Auras Should they be switchable? Should they have more or less?
Smite Evil, should it effect chaotic as well? Should it be per encounter/rounds? Should it do so many d6s in place of strait damage?
Special Mount/Weapon of diety, why not both? Should it extend to armors and shields? How much useage should it have?
Paladin Abilities score spread, how do we cure it? Built int half-celestial or saint?
And these are just a few of the factors that need to be dealt with for Paladins.
An issue I see alot is paladin casting and how it should be handled well making it completely Charisma based would free up the paladins wisdom points. Moving also making them spontaneous would make paladins more effective as a warrior allowing them to adapt to changes is battle or enemies.
You're right, there are more and more threads popping up, and it's becoming impossible to follow them all. This post makes as much sense as any to compile everything.
I had a thought as to a flavor change to the bonded weapon concept (though it could be applied to a bonded armor or shield as well), originally posted in the Thoughts on Paladins thread:
At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
I actually liked what they did with paladins. I mean, a couple more tweaks might be good, but no point in playing a perfectly balanced system.
My ideas:
-Double the amount of 'lay on hands' and double the damage from a smite attack
-Good will save. This is only logical, and I have no idea why they wouldn't have a good will save. Hell, I'm on board for giving a paladin all three good saves, but meh.
To Heaven's Agent
I like this for the bonded weapon, and maybe some feats related to specific dieties to gain extra abilities. I am not sure what right now but I feel it could use something.
To Valderan
I dont think doubling it is a good idea but maybe feats that improve it. Also there was a lay of hands that replaced removed disease which I like I will have to dig it up and repost it. I think allowing lay on hands to do more would make the ability worth paying attention to.
As for base abilities of Paladins I think they should have a good will save as well or possibly and intermediate save such as scouts battle fortitude. possibly tie this in with the DR /evil into a new ability. Conviction (Ex) At levels *blank x 3* paladin gains +1 to will saves and 1-2/evil DR at 20th level accesion rounds their DR off to an even 5-10/evil.
To Heaven's Agent
I like this for the bonded weapon, and maybe some feats related to specific dieties to gain extra abilities. I am not sure what right now but I feel it could use something.
I agree, it still seems to be missing. . .something.
I'm convinced a permanent bonded item, even if some of its abilities must be invoked to be used, is the right start. What lies further down that path, I'm unsure as well. That said, it may simply be a matter of the idea seeming incomplete because there's been no consensus as to how many times the abilities can be used in a day.
Well its use depends completely on its ability, IF we are going the path of a static bonus then we need no duration or useage but then we have to consider how powerful a bonus. On the other hand if we stay with the current bonus (+6) I would have to say give it 1 minute per 4 levels (5 at 20) that can be split into minute uses. So 5 minutes means 5 1 minute uses or 2 2minute uses with a 1 minute use and so fourth.
Well its use depends completely on its ability, IF we are going the path of a static bonus then we need no duration or useage but then we have to consider how powerful a bonus. On the other hand if we stay with the current bonus (+6) I would have to say give it 1 minute per 4 levels (5 at 20) that can be split into minute uses. So 5 minutes means 5 1 minute uses or 2 2minute uses with a 1 minute use and so fourth.
My concept has both static and variable bonuses.
The enhancement bonus is static, so the weapon always serves as a +1 weapon (or greater, if the paladin has it further enhanced by someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armors).
The weapon properties are what have to be invoked, and increase in magnitude from +1 at level 5 to +6 at level 20. As to how often they can be invoked, I'm still unsure which of the proposed methods I prefer at this point; I won't have time to test them myself for some time (I hate semester finals).
When I get home I will check some of the other weapon systems ie weapon of legacy, ancestral relic and the like to see if we can pull something from that. I know the complete divine gives every diety's relic which I think would be a good base for the system.
To me, the paladin class is an example of their stated design goals of backwards compatibility and ease of conversion of our silos of 3e material. I don't look at this Pathfinder Paladin and get a headache at how much I'll have to write in the margins of my Dungeon magazines and modules.
|
To me, the paladin class is an example of their stated design goals of backwards compatibility and ease of conversion of our silos of 3e material. I don't look at this Pathfinder Paladin and get a headache at how much I'll have to write in the margins of my Dungeon magazines and modules.
"Post Its" work much better than writing in your mags/mods!
First off, I'm not sure what thread I posted in when I said that I missed detect evil, but all I can say is that I have bad eyesight apparently. Now that I've actually printed this thing out and sat down to read it, here are my thoughts.
First off, thank you for leaving in everything that would be an OGL paladin, and just adding to them. This is great, and I hope it stays this way.
Now, to the issues I have:
Divine Bond (chosen weapon): Why can this ability only be used with a deity's favored weapon? I know many, many paladins that don't use their deity's favored weapon. A lot of gods that are eligible to have paladins have favored weapons that aren't the best choice for a paladin (for example, gods like Azuth in the Forgotten Realms).
Divine Bond (Weapon Bonuses): I know this is going to sound like I'm arguing to facilitate laziness, but gosh darnit, I am. Could we get a chart of the +3 available and a summary of which qualities are equivalent to what plus?
I don't mind looking this up myself, but my paladin player might like to have that information in the class entry, since its not normally something she would have to know off hand. It might make it easier and faster to say "okay, I have X bonus at this level, that's equal to power Y, that's what I pick."
Divine Bond (chosen weapon): Why can this ability only be used with a deity's favored weapon? I know many, many paladins that don't use their deity's favored weapon. A lot of gods that are eligible to have paladins have favored weapons that aren't the best choice for a paladin (for example, gods like Azuth in the Forgotten Realms).
Very true. Sure, a paladin of Abadar could make use of a divine bond crossbow, but to do so effectively ends up defining that paladin in a way that can be very limiting. The same could be said for a paladin of Erastil, and his or her divine bond longbow. And think of the poor paladins of Irori, with their divine bond unarmed strike; would that even work?
Well paladin would be gaining an ability like clerical domains where a god COULD choose your weapon or if you are a paladin not within the bounds of a religion you would just choose your own favored weapon.
Also I think paladin being completely Charisma based spontaneous casters, with an intermediate will save. would handle some of the paladin point spread issue. The drawback is paladins will lose their wisdom which kind of turns them into a duskblade with divine spells. The mechanics would not match the fluff which is the greatest developement mistake anyone can make.
I stand by the incorperation of the half celestial template over the later 10 levels (11-20) in four boasts. I know it throws alot of abilities out there but paladin uses them all show ability stacking shouldnt be a concern. This path also will reinforce the champion of good fluff of the paladin.
|
|
I have two thoughts on paladins in Alpha 2 release.
#1. I think paladins should get to smite evil more often. It is their signature ability and IMO something they should get more of. I think something like (3 + Charisma modifier)/day seems more reasonable to me. Only being able to do it once per day till 4th lvl seems just silly to me. Alternatively, make a feat called "Extra Smiting" or something more clever... The feat would give the paladin +4 smite attempts per day. If you want to make a super smiter, take it multiple times and let it stack. This is like the Extra Turning feat for clerics, but applies to the paladin signature ability.
#2. I think they should be Charisma based spell casters. I don't mind them preparing spells ahead of time, but making them Charisma casters would reduce the multi-stat dependency slightly, and hold with, what i see, the idea of a marshal leader of the church.
I think Smite should per encounter, with 5 per encounter at 20th. I also think Smite should be measured in d6s which would allow for a decent amount of damage at 1-2 and a fair amount of damage at level 15-20.
|
|
I think Smite should per encounter, with 5 per encounter at 20th. I also think Smite should be measured in d6s which would allow for a decent amount of damage at 1-2 and a fair amount of damage at level 15-20.
I can see the per encounter argument, but that negates the need to measure your response to something. Giving them an increased number per day would still force them ration their uses, but if they came into a big "boss" fight, they could blow all their uses against him. I guess i'm a fan of the more flexibility of increased per day, rather than the per encounter.
I do like your idea of the d6s though. It makes it similar to sneak attack, and allows the damage to scale which is a good idea.
My idea for smite:
1. Smite Evil +1d6
5. Smite Evil +2d6 (Magic)
10 Smite Evil +3d6 (Silver)
15 Smite Evil +4d6 (Adamantine)
20 Smite Evil +5d6 (Banishment)
Smite recharges every 5 rounds (feat called quciken smite which lets it recharge faster), and still adds you charisma to attack. If an encounter drags to long you can smite twice in the same one and you can use smite in every encounter but never spam it.
|
I'm still a fan of Paladins losing spellcasting and instead gaining a Domain. Community, Glory, Good, Healing, and Law all stand out as appropriate picks. I've never much enjoyed the 3rd ed view of paladins as spellcasters.
I like this idea, I like this ALOT! Don't forget Sun, Strength, and maybe War too.
Well a domain would be nice but would you just get the bonus or also the ability to cast the domain spells? I really like the idea of paladin having a small group of spells though.
Are there even domain powers anymore or even domain spells?
|
As i have suggested in previous threads: it is my opinion the best thing that can happen to the paladin is to remove spellcasting, and remove the useless repetitive remove disease ability and instead have remove disease and other such healing / malady remedy as part of the lay on hands. use smite evil to add more abilities to use it for to replace a few of the martial spells, and just make the class overall more martial in nature and not a spellcaster.
it doesnt need good will save or all since Divine Grace makes all saves much better.
I took the Alpha 2 released paladin, added what I really liked from that to the ideals I had for a paladin, and created one that I am going to use to replace paladin for my upcoming campaigns; my players love it.
And it has more of a goodly champion than just a holy warrior aspect.
Here is a link to my messageboard for my existing campaign - in which I have posted my version of the paladin. I invite you to take a look for yourself.
http://z6.invisionfree.com/World_Of_Mydian/index.php?showtopic=619
(note since it is for my homebrew campaign world, the description is specific to that world - but it is very compatible)
Robert
Well to start I think Paladins should ahve spellcasting but not alot. (less then or equal to 50% of a cleric). It would be nice and fluffy Paladins should have medium will save (similar to scout). I just dont think they would be weak willed characters.
"Now I found something which I thought was intresting:
I'm quite disappointed that one of the more fundamental issues of playing a paladin hasn't been addressed here. Giving the paladin a better ability set is good, but it should not be forgotten that RPG stands for ROLE-PLAYING game, and the paladin class has had more than a share of role-playing related issues.
That "said", I shall elaborate. Many players have complained or argued about how a paladin should be played. The "code of conduct" given in the open game content gives a rigid and slightly obscure set of guidelines that a paladin must follow. In actual gameplay that can unfortunately become a problem of interpretation. The following points should help to iron out what must be done to "update" the paladin's code of conduct for better gameplay.
1. The paladin must respect legitimate authority. Different gods have different ethos, so whether an authority is recognized as legitimate by the paladin must depend on whether the paladin's deity recognizes the authority as legitimate.
2. The paladin must act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). A god of justice may require his champions to conceal their identities as part of an investigation of evil activities. That requires a considerable amount of lying. Law enforcement is natural for a paladin, being a LAWFUL good divine champion. Undercover work is dishonest yet often necessary to defend the innocent against some of the most evil villains and their wicked schemes.
Use of poison in of itself is not dishonorable. A lawful good god of strategy would probably condone poison use against evil foes if it meant preventing the deaths of those that the paladin is sworn to defend. Some monsters may not even be defeatable without the use of a powerful poison or a powerful artifact. If the poison is easily attained (the essence of a local root perhaps) but the artifact isn't, what is the paladin to do when the giant draconic abberation is less than a day away from decimating a village? Perhaps he should just pray for the intervention of his deity's avatar or temporary superman powers,..........unless his deity is busy at the moment fighting in a battle against an evil deity in another realm. What then?
Using poison to assassinate a political rival is dishonorable. Using poison to kill a high-ranking military commander to stop or delay an evil army's march to give hundreds of defenseless villagers time to evacuate is divine strategy at its finest (A paladin can't be expected to smite the whole army after all, and an evil bad guy can't be expected to accept an open challenge in all due fairness).
And so forth? Those three words can kill the fun of playing with a paladin if the player or game master interprets "honor" in a way that the other people at the table can't stand. More specific rules varying by deity would not only solve this problem but also add flavor to the character and the campaign.
Helping those in need and punishing those who threaten innocents is fine but the method should depend on what the individual deity deems as acceptable. Varying codes by deity will give many players the option to play the paladin they want to play rather than a single rigid archetype.
---On a side note, multi-classing should also always depend on the deity's ethos, as has been done in a certain campaign setting that features a certain two-scimitar wielding dark elf on the cover of more than one of its books..."
The Paladins code, which does need revision I was thinking that we could take the crusaders code (if anyone has seen kingdom of heaven). It does address all the points of being a paladin:
“Be brave and upright that God may love thee; speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death; safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. That is your oath.”
It is simple but it tells everything, a paladin is not and inquisitor and undercover work is left to spies and inquisitors. Paladins should never stoop to that level. Ravages replace poisons in the paladins arsenal. I know I am on the verge of suggesting exalted characters but If you want paladin to be lawful good than why not go all the way. There is a simple understanding paladins should have with all nature, god, and law which is that they will do no wrong. If they do then they are not a paladin, and those that are will always act in good faith.
I could go on but I am sure my point is clear. You cant make the paladin's code a mechanical or a interchangable. It is the good that just is and those that can understand it will follow that path.
Just read roberts paladin which isnt that bad I kinda like what you did with lay on hands but I kinda found the lay on hands still kinda powerful, almost if not more so then a clerics ability to cast.
Use of poison in of itself is not dishonorable. . .
I never felt reason that paladins couldn't use poison was because it was dishonorable. As you said, it is a valid strategy and tactic.
However, I still think poison use should be prohibited, not on a basis of honor or dishonor, nor of good or evil (an argument I have seen as well); it's a matter of being unlawful. Poison, by its very nature, wreaks chaos on the victim's body. Its sole purpose is to disrupt and/or destroy, both factors that specifically violate a lawful perspective.
|
|
Just read roberts paladin which isnt that bad I kinda like what you did with lay on hands but I kinda found the lay on hands still kinda powerful, almost if not more so then a clerics ability to cast.
Thanks for th props! I did wonder about that a bit; but after playtesting a 10th level paladin of that type he only had 8 curing points (1/2 pal level + 17 CHA mod of +3), I was okay with it. One day he did 1 Neutralize Poison, and 2 Lesser Restores and was done for the day.
The next day he used 2 cure mods, a remove fear, and a cure lt wounds.
The third day he Removed Sickened Condition on two people, a Cure Mod Wounds a Remove Fear and a Cure Light Wounds.
Each of those days he exhausted all of his lay on hands abilities for the day and looking back on that vs the 10th level cleric - there was no comparison on the amount of spellcasting; let alone the power the cleric has with his domain power and superior turning ability.
Robert
|
|
Well a domain would be nice but would you just get the bonus or also the ability to cast the domain spells? I really like the idea of paladin having a small group of spells though.
Are there even domain powers anymore or even domain spells?
Domains for clerics dont have a "Domain Spell" that you memorize at each level; instead you get domain powers that you can use; (see cleric) as your cleric level advances, the domain powers you have access to become more powerful. Clerics get access to two domains and get the powers from both.
Robert
Personally, i do not believe that paladins should lose their spells, as that would make converting a pain in the arse.
Casting off of cha is fine, not a huge change.
losing spell casting for the domain progression of the cleric would be cool though, though i would have it be a class ability switch such as from unearthed arcana.
Smiting evil more yes please!
but dont change how much damage it deals, smite is uniform across alot of things and would be a pain to remember.
I would like if paladins gained access to something like a domain that could seperate different types of paladins. I dont think paladins should lose spellcasting though. Possible explore avenues such as auras or different types of existing abilities that would allow you to customize your paladin through varient options.
Also we should explore some non-core classes that are similar to a paladin and use what they did correctly to fix paladin (ie knight, marshal, and scout).
|
|
My idea for smite:
1. Smite Evil +1d6
5. Smite Evil +2d6 (Magic)
10 Smite Evil +3d6 (Silver)
15 Smite Evil +4d6 (Adamantine)
20 Smite Evil +5d6 (Banishment)Smite recharges every 5 rounds (feat called quciken smite which lets it recharge faster), and still adds you charisma to attack. If an encounter drags to long you can smite twice in the same one and you can use smite in every encounter but never spam it.
If the DR system will not be reworked from 3.5, I sure wouldn't mind seeing the paladin's Smite "upgrading" with levels. Good ideas -- I like them! :)
That is the smite I am currently using with my group and its not really different then regular smite ability just seems to transition the levels alittle more smoothly. Also the 20th level banishment ability is complete someone elses idea because I took it from pathfinder and is a great back end ability for smite. Wizards should hang their head in shame for not adding it.
Imagen smite evil at level 1, and with a cha of 14:
+2 attack (not bad), +1 damage (useless).
This would remain so until level 3ish, now look at my system.
+2 attack (still fine), +1d6 (1-6 possible damage much better).
This would allow the first level character to be more effective. Looking at smite evil as an ability it is a vastly underpowered attack being it is condidtional (target must be evil) and limited (so many times per day or encounter).
Look at sneak attack its a conditional and unlimited ability which does an additional d6 every other level, which is a metric buttload more then paladins can do verse their favored enemy.
Also dont forget the tactile pleasure of rolling a handful of d6s for damage.
|
Divine Bond (chosen weapon): Why can this ability only be used with a deity's favored weapon? I know many, many paladins that don't use their deity's favored weapon. A lot of gods that are eligible to have paladins have favored weapons that aren't the best choice for a paladin (for example, gods like Azuth in the Forgotten Realms).Very true. Sure, a paladin of Abadar could make use of a divine bond crossbow, but to do so effectively ends up defining that paladin in a way that can be very limiting. The same could be said for a paladin of Erastil, and his or her divine bond longbow. And think of the poor paladins of Irori, with their divine bond unarmed strike; would that even work?
Could their be a seperate paladin list?
Kinda like... Paladins may choose their deity's favoured weapon, or their deity's saintly weapon - these weapons were used by warrior saints of the faith in the distant past and have been co-opted into the deity's paladin traditions.
Then use this option to give everyone who doesn't have one a sword, axe or hammer option.
Thing I kinda liked about weapon groups is that this becomes less of a problem being that Moridian favors weapon group (dwarf), now all moridian followers can choose the type of dwarven racial weapon they want or is convient for them. Then followers of Kord have Heavy Blades, and so on and so forth.
Now you get a couple options for your diety's weapon and also dont lose the ability in a pinch when you switch weapons.
An idea that came out of my thread on this was to roll smite, lay on hands, remove disease, turn undead, and potentialy paladin spellcasting into one overarching point system. As mentioned here before, getting rid of paladin spellcasting would be a pain for conversion, but the rest could potentialy be rolled into a "Holy Points" system. Spend a point to cure, or more points to channel positive energy like a cleric or remove disease. Spend a point to smite, and possibly even channel extra holy points into increasing the damage on a singular smite.
If spellcasting stays, definately needs to be cha-based.
I prefer streight damage to an equivalent amount of d6s because stright damage is multiplied by crits. Which makes for fun times when your a grey guard rolling with a scythe...
Essentialy the probem with smite is not that its streight damage, but that it is underpowered. You could just as easily do something like +cha to attack, +(cha + paladin level) to damage. Or even just double your paladin level to damage. It would probably solve the underpoweredness of the ability just as well as giving it d6s.
Very true. Sure, a paladin of Abadar could make use of a divine bond crossbow, but to do so effectively ends up defining that paladin in a way that can be very limiting. The same could be said for a paladin of Erastil, and his or her divine bond longbow. And think of the poor paladins of Irori, with their divine bond unarmed strike; would that even work?
I use a "Dedicated" weapon quality (100g.p. extra) where a weapon (or shield) is inscribed or shaped with the deity's symbol and ceremonialy blessed so they can be used as a holy symbol.
A cleric of Irori uses a dedicated "Fist-headed" heavy mace. That could be used for paladins of different deities.
I dont know d6s for paladin just feels better and works pretty well in combat testing. Also you can still multiply it.
I dont know d6s for paladin just feels better and works pretty well in combat testing. Also you can still multiply it.
You can? Last I checked extra dice were never modified by crits. Did that change in Pathfinder?
The possibilities...... 0_0
Why not just let Paladins smite whomever (whoever?/whatever?) they want? I mean if a Paladin is in a situation where he/she is able to Smite (making an attack roll), then the creature probably deserves it. I can certainly see cases where a neutral (and even a good) aligned creature or person may need to be smited. Non-evilly aligne beings occasionally do evil things.
If the Paladin uses the ability inappropriately then she/he will be getting a little talking to from the higher powers.
This way you don't have to detect evil before smiting because it wont fail due to the target's alignment, and it makes the ability more usable in a given session. The smite ability can be used when the player feels it is appropriate not when the DM (GM/PM?) puts in the proper creature.
Ive always allowed players to multiply damage for smite and everyone has always let me.
Smiting anyone defeats the fluffy of smiting, I wouldnt change it.