Let me start off by saying that I love the auras, and the additional smite uses. Well done!
My issue is still with remove disease as a mandatory class feature. The multiple uses per day will come in handy for playing "Curse of the Crimson Throne," or "Age of Worms," but outside of that, it's almost always going to be a wasted feature. Suggestions:
1. Paladins get divine spells. Remove disease is a divine spell. If a paladin wants to do remove diseases, let him prepare it as a spell and be done with it. The spell level for the paladin list could be lowered from 4th to maybe 2nd, in this case.
2. Expand "lay on hands," and allow paladins to swap hp of healing for the ability to remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration, etc. This would actually be my preferred solution.
Director of Games
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The problem here is not with Remove Disease as a class feature. It lies with the fact that disease is not a viable threat in most games once they reach 5th level. Many of the rules in release 2 (afflictions and Remove Disease itself) are an attempt to fix this problem.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The problem here is not with Remove Disease as a class feature. It lies with the fact that disease is not a viable threat in most games once they reach 5th level. Many of the rules in release 2 (afflictions and Remove Disease itself) are an attempt to fix this problem.
Mr. Bulmahn,
Thanks for your reply. The Release 2 rules for poisons and diseases are a much-needed change, and I agree completely that they go a long way towards making those things viable threats again.I do still question whether most parties are going to encounter diseases that need curing 5 times a day, though, especially when the vast majority of adventures don't have ANY. Still, if your mind is made up, I can always houserule.
Thanks.
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Let me start off by saying that I love the auras, and the additional smite uses. Well done!
My issue is still with remove disease as a mandatory class feature. The multiple uses per day will come in handy for playing "Curse of the Crimson Throne," or "Age of Worms," but outside of that, it's almost always going to be a wasted feature. Suggestions:
1. Paladins get divine spells. Remove disease is a divine spell. If a paladin wants to do remove diseases, let him prepare it as a spell and be done with it. The spell level for the paladin list could be lowered from 4th to maybe 2nd, in this case.
2. Expand "lay on hands," and allow paladins to swap hp of healing for the ability to remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration, etc. This would actually be my preferred solution.
Kirth - that was exactly what I suggested a while ago on a Paladin-related thread. (I'm sure you saw it - as you seem to follow these threads pretty closely).
In fact my suggestion was to scrap paladin spells altogether, and allow the Lay on Hands to function as a myriad of affliction and malady remedies.
To me, Remove Disease 5 times per day (which is what you getting at the high levels) is just highly redundant IMO - especially since a) removing disease is a simple matter of a spell, b) the onset time of most diseases easily allows a cleric to rest and memorize it (if he doesn't already have a potion or scroll in his inventroy) before most diseases really have an effect.
All of this suggestion came before the Barbarian and his "rage" points, but using that as a model - I could see Lay On Hands having a number of points that grows with levels, and the various spells that can normally used to remove maladies be incorporated as a "lay on hands cost" from the point pool.
Cure lt Wounds 1 point
Remove Fear 1 point
Remove Paralysis 2 point
Lesser Restor 2 point
Cure Disease 3 point
Neutralize Poison 4 point
and can even undo certain "conditions" such as Nauseated, Sickened, Stunned, etc.
Then if you're concerned that losing spells makes the paladin less "martially" effective, thats when you make Smite Evils' a little more diverse and utilized to make up the differece - all of this replaces and balances the fact that they no longer cast spells.
That all being said - Paladins are my favorite class by far - and I think that what Paizo did with them is leagues better than what they were.
Robert
Robert,
Yes, I remembered you proposing it, and others as well. It was a great idea then, and deserved to be brought up again. It just fundamentally makes sense.
I'm fond of paladin spells -- Relics and Rituals (the first one) has some particularly useful and "flavorful" ones -- so I'd like to keep them if possible, but folding the disease removal in with either the spells or the laying of hands is logical, streamlined, and elegant, and removes a cumbersome separate mechanic that many paladins go their entire career without ever once using.
Then again, taking individual spells out of the spell list and making them required class abilities has been a hallmark of Pathfinder design (Cf. the new Wizard class), so I expect we'll see MORE of that sort of thing in the future, as opposed to less of it. I can see it now: "Ranger: 4th level--pass without trace 1/day, 2/day at 8th..."
BTW, Robert, I really like your "lay hands" points, and will houserule them that way even if Pathfinder sticks with remove disease as a separate ability. Thanks! Together with the increased smite usages and very cool auras that Mr. Bulmahn has added, we'll have a newly revitalized paladin, worth playing for 20 levels instead of just three.
--Erik
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Robert,
BTW, Robert, I really like your "lay hands" points, and will houserule them that way even if Pathfinder sticks with remove disease as a separate ability. Thanks! Together with the increased smite usages and very cool auras that Mr. Bulmahn has added, we'll have a newly revitalized paladin, worth playing for 20 levels instead of just three.
--Erik
Thank you very much. I'll send you my proposed version of a variant class (w/o spells).
As for the three level - absolutely agreed - except that the Divine Grace still adds that big boon a low level makes paladin-dipping very ideal for charisma based classes (sorc, bard, even cleric).
Jason and co. indeed did a great job making the paladin worth playing for the duration - something I've never seen done since 3rd edition came out.
Robert
I really like the lay on hands idea, in fact my group has always used a revised paladin from the GitP boards that has that ability as well as auras like the pathfinder paladin. I would prefer the remove disease to be incorporated with lay on hands and then have other smite or aura options to replace the current remove disease ability.
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Let me start off by saying that I love the auras, and the additional smite uses. Well done!
My issue is still with remove disease as a mandatory class feature. The multiple uses per day will come in handy for playing "Curse of the Crimson Throne," or "Age of Worms," but outside of that, it's almost always going to be a wasted feature. Suggestions:
1. Paladins get divine spells. Remove disease is a divine spell. If a paladin wants to do remove diseases, let him prepare it as a spell and be done with it. The spell level for the paladin list could be lowered from 4th to maybe 2nd, in this case.
2. Expand "lay on hands," and allow paladins to swap hp of healing for the ability to remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration, etc. This would actually be my preferred solution.
Kirth - that was exactly what I suggested a while ago on a Paladin-related thread. (I'm sure you saw it - as you seem to follow these threads pretty closely).
In fact my suggestion was to scrap paladin spells altogether, and allow the Lay on Hands to function as a myriad of affliction and malady remedies.
To me, Remove Disease 5 times per day (which is what you getting at the high levels) is just highly redundant IMO - especially since a) removing disease is a simple matter of a spell, b) the onset time of most diseases easily allows a cleric to rest and memorize it (if he doesn't already have a potion or scroll in his inventroy) before most diseases really have an effect.
All of this suggestion came before the Barbarian and his "rage" points, but using that as a model - I could see Lay On Hands having a number of points that grows with levels, and the various spells that can normally used to remove maladies be incorporated as a "lay on hands cost" from the point pool.
Cure lt Wounds 1 point
Remove Fear 1 point
Remove Paralysis 2 point
Lesser Restor 2 point
Cure Disease 3 point
Neutralize Poison 4 pointand can even undo certain "conditions" such as...
I suggested (on another thread) that all Paladin's abilities should function like this (i.e. activated with points). I think your list is very good, and I'd sure like to see the Paladin being a more "practical" healer than cleric, focusing on removing those nasty conditions.
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All of this suggestion came before the Barbarian and his "rage" points, but using that as a model - I could see Lay On Hands having a number of points that grows with levels, and the various spells that can normally used to remove maladies be incorporated as a "lay on hands cost" from the point pool.
Cure lt Wounds 1 point
Remove Fear 1 point
Remove Paralysis 2 point
Lesser Restor 2 point
Cure Disease 3 point
Neutralize Poison 4 pointand can even undo certain...
I forgot Remove Blindness or Deafness 3 points
# of points per day: Paladin Level + Cha Mod.
Robert
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I agree with converting the Paladin's Lay On Hands ability to a sort of "Divinity Points" pool much like the Barbarian's new Rage Points. 1 pt. for a Cure Light Wounds doesn't seem unreasonable and it allows the Paladin to serve as a major force of healing in the party, but prevents him from being able to lend massive aid to injured party members in the heat of combat (which should be the cleric's ability via spells like heal).
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Another option would be to give the paladin a selection of different abilities (of which Remove Disease would be one) that all borrow from the same "positive energy" pool.
Maybe some short-term personal combat buffs, various condition removal effects, and some sort of 'ray of smite" (which would also need a "smite evil' use.
It would give the paladin a little more of the flexibility that folks have been after, and turn an ability that sees little use in most campaigns into something a little more usable.
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The problem here is not with Remove Disease as a class feature. It lies with the fact that disease is not a viable threat in most games once they reach 5th level. Many of the rules in release 2 (afflictions and Remove Disease itself) are an attempt to fix this problem.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Just because the PCs aren't threatened by disease after level 5 doesn't mean it's insignificant past that time, as the current adventure path is a vivid illustration of. Paladins are required to be good, and good people care about more than themselves....
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2. Expand "lay on hands," and allow paladins to swap hp of healing for the ability to remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration, etc. This would actually be my preferred solution.
I like this idea. Mabe have "Lay on Hands" work more like the "Touch of Vitality" ability from the PHB2s "Dragon Shaman"
You would gain a pool of points like the new Barbarian's but it would work like "Lay on Hands" then you could spend more points (say 10) for remove a disease, or neutralize a poison. Then spend some more points (say 20) for restoration.Just use the "Touch of Vitality" as reference
2. Expand "lay on hands," and allow paladins to swap hp of healing for the ability to remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration, etc. This would actually be my preferred solution.
I like this idea. Mabe have "Lay on Hands" work more like the "Touch of Vitality" ability from the PHB2s "Dragon Shaman"
You would gain a pool of points like the new Barbarian's but it would work like "Lay on Hands" then you could spend more points (say 10) for remove a disease, or neutralize a poison. Then spend some more points (say 20) for restoration.
Just use the "Touch of Vitality" as reference
I also like the idea of expanding the "lay on hands" ability to include the remove disease and other afflictions but I am not too fond of the point system myself. This seems to be on the right track though and I could probably adapt to a point system, it's just not what I would prefer.
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I also like the idea of expanding the "lay on hands" ability to include the remove disease and other afflictions but I am not too fond of the point system myself.
The word 'point' gets a knee-jerk reaction from me as well. Some sort of gamey term like 'Channelings' or 'Devotions' or whatever might be more flavorful, with the various curative effects being described as requiring as many 'Channelings uses' as their spell level, with the Paladin getting 'Channeling uses' per day equal to his class level + Cha mod or something. A 5th level Paladin with a Cha 14 would end up with 7 spell levels worth of the appropriate spells usable as SLAs, including the Cure Wounds spells, Remove Disease, etc.
He might also be able to cast those as spells as well, to supplement those numbers, in case of attempting to help a village that has suffered attack by plague zombies or something.
Or the 'Channelings' pool could be significantly larger, and his Smite abilities might also tap into it, allowing him to Smite or Cure, depending on the needs of the day.
In any event, he shouldn't be able to use his faith to 'channel' a spell effect of more than half his class level, rounded up. A 1st level Paladin with a Cha 16 would have 4 'channelings,' but shouldn't be able to Remove Disease before 5th level or Neutralize Poison before 7th, just like a Cleric.
I'd avoid "channeling" (due to its use as the new "turn/rebuke" name), but "points" is indeed lame. I'd keep the hp healing capacity of Lay on Hands the same, and swap hp directly for condition removal, maybe a 3 hp per spell level equivalent (e.g., lesser restoration costs 6 hp of lay hands potential, remove disease costs 9 hp, neutralize poison costs 12, etc.). This would by default impose a level limit, unless your Charisma is unreasonably high.
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Well, although I still used the word "points" in my version of the paladin - i can change it in favor of a better term. That being said, the version I wrote for my own campaign which will replace the paladin as written in my next upcoming campaign that I run does have thise "curing points" and there is a clause as Set suggested that a paladin must be a certain level before he can do these types of curing.....
If you're intereted in reading what I've done (a hybrid of Pathfinders' and my own ideas - many of which we've discussed on these boards....) you can view it here on my campaign messageboard I keep.
http://z6.invisionfree.com/World_Of_Mydian/index.php?showtopic=619
Robert
I'd avoid "channeling" (due to its use as the new "turn/rebuke" name), but "points" is indeed lame. I'd keep the hp healing capacity of Lay on Hands the same, and swap hp directly for condition removal, maybe a 3 hp per spell level equivalent (e.g., lesser restoration costs 6 hp of lay hands potential, remove disease costs 9 hp, neutralize poison costs 12, etc.). This would by default impose a level limit, unless your Charisma is unreasonably high.
As pointed out before, the Dragon Shaman has exactly this ability. It sounds like a great idea to me!