OK, so I love the idea to recharge the staff. I always hated the idea that I have created this potent iconic item that will go Kaput in about 2 weeks. In fact, this is something I couldn't tolerate much at all.
I do have a concern about the recharge rate and the cost though. 1 charge for maximum level means that at 18th level I spend a 9th level slot to add an "ice storm" to my staff of frost. It seems a rather steep trade.
If this was to limit the power of the staff in between game sessions I understand, but I think the cost is still rather high.
Perhaps you guys can tell me the design concept behind it.
Yes, this was a concern I noticed as well. It seems odd that at 15th level, I can recharge a staff with an 8th level slot, but when I hit 17th level, I suddenly need a 9th level slot to recharge the same staff. Perhaps the level of slot required should be based on the highest level spell the staff can cast. So a staff of frost would require a 5th-level slot to recharge.
Otherwise, I love the fact you can recharge staves now!
Please do fix this. For all the 1st level apprentices forced to recharge staves for their masters, I beg you!
[JOKE]
I concur that staves should gain rage points when struck for damage in combat.
[/JOKE]
Seriously, I know there's a better fix than just 'highest level spell the staff can cast'. I'm just WAY too sleepy.
I'm off to fix that...
seems to me like 1 charge per level of spell given up would work best.
1st level=1 charge,3rd=3 charges 8th=8 charges. sounds fair but if thats to much what about 1 charge per 2 levels?
|
I would suggest that using a spell slot equal in level to that of the highest level spell the staff can cast would be appropriate and balanced.
So a staff of Defense requires am 8th level slot and a staff of Frost takes only a 5th level slot? I don't know...
I mean a staff of Frost uses 2 charges for Cone of Cold, and a staff of Defense uses 3 charges for Shield of Law. How about a set level per charge, say 1 charge for a 5th level spell and 2 for a 9th level spell?
Put me in the group of people who really like the new staff rules (and oh yeah, good point about the recharging).
I don't think that the number of charges a spell costs should affect the recharge rate - multiple charges to cast a spell makes creation cheaper, and a cheaping out on your staff means it takes longer to recharge.
Love the staffs. They are fantastic. I agree with the idea of 'Highest Spell in staff' to recharge. Max level is pretty extreme.
Out of curiosity can a Wizards Impliment be turned into a Staff?
Also agree. Higest level spell on the staff sounds like a good rule. I'm not sure about the limit of 10 charges, though. Anybody?
Also agree. Higest level spell on the staff sounds like a good rule. I'm not sure about the limit of 10 charges, though. Anybody?Love the staffs. They are fantastic. I agree with the idea of 'Highest Spell in staff' to recharge. Max level is pretty extreme.
Out of curiosity can a Wizards Impliment be turned into a Staff?
I agree with the highest-levle spell on the staff or the highest level of spells you can cast, whichever is lower. This is because, theoretically, a 7th-level character could get a staff of frost, but never be able to recharge it then.
I think it should be 10 still, but powerful ones have an exception for 20, like staff of power.
The one difficulty with the "highest level effect" of the staff is that the poor characters who can't yet cast spells of the highest level are unable to recharge their staves. Yes, you could say that a 3rd level wizard shouldn't be running around with staves of fire, but the rogue17/evoker3 should have just as much right to this fancy piece of wood as a 9th level diviner.
Perhaps given the new rules about attuning magic items to a particular person could be used here. The staff only works for the last person to recharge a staff. Sure, you could have your apprentice recharge your 200,000 GP staff for you , but now he's the only person who can use it?
No, 10 charges sounds pretty good to me. Any more and it just turn into an arcane bazooka, less and it feels useless. 10 isn't likely to get all used up in a day, but if you do, you feel like you've gotten pretty good use out of it.
The one difficulty with the "highest level effect" of the staff is that the poor characters who can't yet cast spells of the highest level are unable to recharge their staves. Yes, you could say that a 3rd level wizard shouldn't be running around with staves of fire, but the rogue17/evoker3 should have just as much right to this fancy piece of wood as a 9th level diviner.
Perhaps given the new rules about attuning magic items to a particular person could be used here. The staff only works for the last person to recharge a staff. Sure, you could have your apprentice recharge your 200,000 GP staff for you , but now he's the only person who can use it?
Read my post above.
I agree with the highest-levle spell on the staff or the highest level of spells you can cast, whichever is lower. This is because, theoretically, a 7th-level character could get a staff of frost, but never be able to recharge it then.
The problem here is you could still hand all your staves over to your apprentice to charge for you.
No, 10 charges sounds pretty good to me. Any more and it just turn into an arcane bazooka, less and it feels useless. 10 isn't likely to get all used up in a day, but if you do, you feel like you've gotten pretty good use out of it.
Thank you. That's just the sort of response I was looking for. I see your point.
I agree with the highest-levle spell on the staff or the highest level of spells you can cast, whichever is lower. This is because, theoretically, a 7th-level character could get a staff of frost, but never be able to recharge it then.The problem here is you could still hand all your staves over to your apprentice to charge for you.
How about if you can only use it or recharge it if you have had it with you for 24 hrs. that way if you want your aprentice to recharge it for you you wont be able to use it for 2 days (1 day for the aprentice to be able to recharge it an 1 more day for you to be able to use it)
It makes a condition where you basically get 1 charge/day of normal use, so the fact that you can save them up and drop all 10 in one day seems overpowered by comparison. Either they recharge too slowly or hold too many charges, and it's difficult to tell which.
Is it even worth the benefit of trading you're highest level slot for one charge from your favorite staff? Odds aren't good that it will be of equal benefit. In most cases it will be of less benefit, but the worst case scenario is trading up to effectively get more benefit out of that one slot per day. Either way is a balance issue, and I'm not sure it can be solved with this kind of recharging.
|
The one difficulty with the "highest level effect" of the staff is that the poor characters who can't yet cast spells of the highest level are unable to recharge their staves. Yes, you could say that a 3rd level wizard shouldn't be running around with staves of fire, but the rogue17/evoker3 should have just as much right to this fancy piece of wood as a 9th level diviner.
I would see that as a benefit rather than a problem. Consider the Staff of Wishes, which blasts off a Wish per charge. Mind-blowingly expensive and powerful, one would suppose. I would be bad enough if Enoch the 1st level wizard could lay his hands on it. If he could recharge it simply by blowing the slot he would have put his Magic Missile in, then surely the item is totally unbalanced in that regard. The evoker 3/rogue 17 is a powerful character - but he still can't muster a fireball under his own steam, so why should he suddenly have the magical puissance to use the Almighty Staff of Meteor Storm? He should have stuck to his wizarding if he wanted that, and toned down the sneaking and stabbing.
Perhaps the new rules about attuning magic items to a particular person could be used here. The staff only works for the last person to recharge a staff. Sure, you could have your apprentice recharge your 200,000 GP staff for you , but now he's the only person who can use it?
Wouldn't that make a staff useless as treasure, since the only person who could use it is the person you just offed to get it?
More generally, I think these rules have some quite interesting implications. Staves in 3e were simply big wands, except you could use your own caster levels and so on. The PF staves are very different, rechargeable items, and so should not be considered in the same way. I like these new rules, as they make staves rather special, and the preserve of high level mages, which I think is only right.
More generally, I think these rules have some quite interesting implications.
Yes! I really like these rules and, as a group who uses quite a few staves, I'm looking forward to testing them. The 'highest level spell slot' thingy got me to raise my eyebrows a bit too.
I mean, it's no problem to re-charge it this way during down time, but it seems steep that as your wizard/sorcerer etc. levels up, they actually get worse at recharging. And a 9th level slot for a low level staff (e.g. fireball) is plain not worth it.
I don't have a great suggestion for a replacement rule, it's a bit tricky to cover all of the variables. Perhaps something could be worked out based on the GP price of the staff? E.g. spell slots equal to GP/10,000 ? So the staff of frost would recharge with a level 2 slot, the staff of power would recharge with a level 17 spell slot (!) and the staff of size alteration with a level 1 spell slot.
The other two look about right, but the staff of power is way off. Perhaps this formula should max out at lvl 9 (or 10 using the Epic Level Handbook)? I think a level 9 spell should be able to recharge a staff.
Also, on another note, my group immediately noticed this:
Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff are on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells.
Our Paladin player was thrilled to be able to help the Wizard recharge his staff of dispelling as she rarely uses that slot each day. We couldn't see anything wrong with this RAW, but thought it would be best to throw it out there and see,
a) was this intended?
b) does this break anything (core) that we're missing?
Thoughts?
Peace,
tfad
Perhaps the new rules about attuning magic items to a particular person could be used here. The staff only works for the last person to recharge a staff. Sure, you could have your apprentice recharge your 200,000 GP staff for you , but now he's the only person who can use it?
Wouldn't that make a staff useless as treasure, since the only person who could use it is the person you just offed to get it?
Not really, as the finding wizard would simply have to put a charge into the stave after finding it, and he's all set to go. What it would mean is that you can't reach into a treasure pile during the encounter, grab a random staff and start blasting, but I'm pretty sure you can't do that anyway.
Love the revised staves.
Wands?
I would see that as a benefit rather than a problem. Consider the Staff of Wishes, which blasts off a Wish per charge. Mind-blowingly expensive and powerful, one would suppose. I would be bad enough if Enoch the 1st level wizard could lay his hands on it. If he could recharge it simply by blowing the slot he would have put his Magic Missile in, then surely the item is totally unbalanced in that regard.
Unfortunately, with recharging staves in play now, you simply can't have a Staff of Wishes, no matter how mind-blowingly expensive they are. For a "paltry" sum of 10 times the material component for Wish (plus the really meager sum of the cost of making the staff itself), you essentially have a source of unlimited Wishes. All you have to do is sacrifice a Meteor Swarm, Foresight, or some other relatively useless 9th level spell, and it "magically" becomes a Wish spell with no material component. All staves that involve spells with costly material components will have to have some sort of recharging restrictions.
A question about recharing a bonded stave: I've been assuming from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 that once a 3.5 bonded staff ran out of charges, you would be able to re-enchant the bonded object as a different staff. But now that you can recharge them, are you stuck with the bonded Staff of Size Alteration you made at 8th level when you're at a level to make a bonded Staff of Power? Sure, you could "lose" your old staff and do the ritual to bond with a new stick, but it seems to me that flavour of a bonded staff is a treasured length of wood that you've tended to and cared for throughout your entire career, a symbol that the peasants come to recognize, etc., not something to throw away when you've outgrown it.
A question about recharing a bonded stave: I've been assuming from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 that once a 3.5 bonded staff ran out of charges, you would be able to re-enchant the bonded object as a different staff. But now that you can recharge them, are you stuck with the bonded Staff of Size Alteration you made at 8th level when you're at a level to make a bonded Staff of Power?
Check out p.116 of the Alpha, Adding New Abilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
I'm assuming that this rule also applies to a Wizard's bonded [X].
:)
tfad
All staves that involve spells with costly material components will have to have some sort of recharging restrictions.
I'd fix it this way:
"To recharge a staff, you have to spend the most costly material component of all spells stored in it."
All staves that involve spells with costly material components will have to have some sort of recharging restrictions.I'd fix it this way:
"To recharge a staff, you have to spend the most costly material component of all spells stored in it."
Pretty much my thought on that as well.
Unfortunately, with recharging staves in play now, you simply can't have a Staff of Wishes, no matter how mind-blowingly expensive they are. For a "paltry" sum of 10 times the material component for Wish (plus the really meager sum of the cost of making the staff itself), you essentially have a source of unlimited Wishes.
...
All staves that involve spells with costly material components will have to have some sort of recharging restrictions.
Since Staves are no longer really "charged" items, they should probably follow the rules of a permanent item, which require 100 copies of the material component, or 50 copies if it is a up to 5 uses "per day" item. A staff could technically be used 10 times in a day, but with a recharge of 1/day, I think 50 copies would be fair. That puts a Staff of Wish at somewhere around 115K + 1.25M (first figure is based on 3.5, don't have the PF staff figures in front of me, but they aren't all that different), for a total of 1,365,000 g.p. (plus 1 9th level slot per day under the proposed change), for unlimited wishes.
I'd call that a bit cheaper than the 250,000 x.p. a staff of wishes would cost under 3.5, but still pretty well epic. I mention this in particular because under 3.5 the "Master Staff' epic feat would allow unlimited wishes in a similar way by using 9th level slots to power the staff.
Potential for brokenness: limited.
If you're truly going to determine that such an item is epic... then you need to also multiply the final cost by 10.
I've been thinking about staves and the 20th level Arcane Sorcerer build.
Granted, it is a 20th level ability, but a 20th level sorcerer can have a staff that can cast 8th or 9th level spells (due to crafting cost reduction from Arcane Bond ability) and can blow all of his/her 1st-3rd level spell slots to use that spell from the staff without expending a charge. This works out to 22 casting (assuming only level 1-3 spell slots are used, as well as the full 10 charges possible.)