I'd like to get people thinking about the prestige classes in the core rules. We've all been concentrating on the the core classes, but I think we should be voicing our concerns about prestige classes. While we can't do a whole lot about the closed-content prestige classes, we can definitely voice our opinions about the ones that show up in Pathfinder.
I'm going to break this into two parts: My thoughts about existing prestige classes (only the ones I have a comment about), and prestige classes we could use to bridge some gaps in the existing core rules.
Arcane Archer, Archmage, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge: My problem with these prestige classes is that they give full caster progression PLUS additional abilities. I really think that at least one level of spellcasting should be sacrificed for each of these prestige classes.
Archmage: Open up Arcane Fire to be any type of energy. I wouldn't mind if an Archmage could be made to vanish by rolling some of the abilities directly into the Wizard (or Sorcerer) class.
Duelist: Kill the prestige class and roll Canny Defense, Grace, Acrobatic Charge and Elaborate Parry into Combat Maneuvers, giving some teeth to a Fighter who wants to be a Dex fighter (or a Rogue who chooses Combat Maneuver as his Rogue Talent).
Hierophant: The divine equivalent of Archmage, which doesn't get automatic spell progression, which I think should be remedied.
Horizon Walker: Fire this prestige class, or give it some reason for Rangers to consider it. Right now, it's pretty weaksauce.
Loremaster: Kill loremaster secret #6 & #7. Move Secret #8,9 & 10 up to starting at #6. Make #9 a metamagic secret, allowing you to reduce the level requirement of one metamagic feat you know by one (minimum 0 level modifier). I'd like to sea #10 add +2 to Int or Cha.
Shadowdancer Rangers have to wait until 17th level to get Hide in Plain sight and Shadowdancers get it at 1st level? Yeah, that's fair.
Thaumaturgist Planar Cohort should act like a special mount or animal companion. It should NOT restrict the character from having a cohort from the Leadership feat (though it should still cause a minus to the leadership score, as animal companions, familiars and such do).
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New/modified prestige classes:
Brute: A party friendly Frenzied Beserker. Something for the barbarian to look forward to.
I'd also like to see a cleric/rogue prestige class, something along the lines of how the Arcane Trickster helps Wizard/Rogues.
I'd also like to see a monk prestige class - they seem fairly rare other than Drunk Monk - which I'm tired of seeing popping up in just about every game with a Monk in it that I've run. Maybe something that makes an interesting Rogue/Monk or Fighter/Monk combination.
A True Necromancer-type prestige class would also be appreciated. Something that works well as a Cleric/Necromancer combination without being outrageous.
A pure melee master class. We've got Theurge for Wizard/Cleric mixes, Arcane Trickster for Wizard/Rogue mixes and Archmage which intensifies the wizard (and Hierophant which "intensifies" Cleric/Druids). I'd like to see one that allows mixing of Fighter/Rogue as an effectively deadly mix, and one that intensifies the Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger's combat ability.
Arcane Blade: What the Arcane Archer Archer does for ranged attacks, this should do for melee attacks - also letting fighters get a little "magical" without having to become full-out spellcasters. Please don't give it to elves only
Racial prestige classes - Dwarves have dwarven defender and elves have Arcane Archer. I'd like to see a decent Gnome prestige class (something to give them a reason to be illusionists, perhaps?) and one for Halflings (not a mimic of halfling outrider, please - maybe "Burglar" that's a mix of lucky ol' Bilbo Baggins and quest-driven Frodo & crew). Half-orcs could use one and I think it'd be interesting to come up with one for Half-elves. Above all, there should be one that is HUMAN only.
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Uh....I'm pretty sure Arcane Archer gets no caster progression? Just a nit-pick...maybe I'm remembering it wrong...
Anyway, losing a caster level makes many spell based prestige classes unplayable.
Having no restriction can open up some pretty powerful classes without penalty though, you've got a point.
I'd favor some kind of happy medium, although I couldn't tell you what that could be.
Horizon Walker and Duelist are both pretty horrible though, I agree with you there.
Uh....I'm pretty sure Arcane Archer gets no caster progression? Just a nit-pick...maybe I'm remembering it wrong...
Anyway, losing a caster level makes many spell based prestige classes unplayable.
Having no restriction can open up some pretty powerful classes without penalty though, you've got a point.
I'd favor some kind of happy medium, although I couldn't tell you what that could be.
Horizon Walker and Duelist are both pretty horrible though, I agree with you there.
whoops - my bad, your right on Arcane Archer. Not sure what I was thinking.
ONE caster level is doable, Eldritch Knight does it already. It won't prevent any class from getting its 9th level spells and is no different that the one-level difference between when wizards and sorcerers gain new spell levels. At worst, changing one level to only gain a caster level bump but no extra spells would be a step in the right direction.
Have you looked at most of these prestige classes, very few of them are even as powerful as the new Pathfinder core classes
My thoughts if you dont find a great campign based prestige class (giant slayer ROTRL) Or one of the broken ones why not stay in these great core classes
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Have you looked at most of these prestige classes, very few of them are even as powerful as the new Pathfinder core classes
My thoughts if you dont find a great campign based prestige class (giant slayer ROTRL) Or one of the broken ones why not stay in these great core classes
Sometimes it's a case of the concept not quite fitting into the classes as they stand. The most obvious one is anything that goes "arcane warrior" - without an OGL duskblade, the closest we can get is the eldritch knight (shrug). It's what my wife's character is going to be when we convert... She's playing a sorcerer/swashbuckler, and rather than a straight multiclass, she wants to do both, and that pretty much leaves eldritch knight for her.
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Archmage: Open up Arcane Fire to be any type of energy. I wouldn't mind if an Archmage could be made to vanish by rolling some of the abilities directly into the Wizard (or Sorcerer) class.
Archmage should not be a Prestige Class, it should be Wizard (or Sorc?) levels 16-20. Only single-minded dedication allows you to reach those lofty heights of power (gives a player a good reason NOT to go to Prestige Classes)
Sometimes it's a case of the concept not quite fitting into the classes as they stand. The most obvious one is anything that goes "arcane warrior" - without an OGL duskblade, the closest we can get is the eldritch knight (shrug). It's what my wife's character is going to be when we convert... She's playing a sorcerer/swashbuckler, and rather than a straight multiclass, she wants to do both, and that pretty much leaves eldritch knight for her.Have you looked at most of these prestige classes, very few of them are even as powerful as the new Pathfinder core classes
My thoughts if you dont find a great campign based prestige class (giant slayer ROTRL) Or one of the broken ones why not stay in these great core classes
Yeah thats the other reason concepually I forgot to mention that one
My only thoughts toward presitge classes in PFRPG has not been how to adapt existing ones (OGL or non-OGL), but instead hoping to see ones that evocative of the Golarion setting instead of just a collection of abilities no matter how cool they may be (which there are plenty I love in concept). I would rather see Paizo spend their time putting serious thought into how exactly each prestige class fits into the setting and where in in Golarion they originate. The Hellknights are an obvious choice, but I am sure there are others. I am not well-versed in the Golarion setting to suggest them though. This is why I am also a great fan of 'entrance tests and quests" to join a prestige class not just deciding you want to be one. I think this makes for great story (the test or quest itself), more organic character (wanting to be join this prestige class ever since she was 9) and plugging the character more solidly into the setting.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
World specific prestige classes were part of what I loved so much about the bulk of the Forgotten Realms regional books. The sense of place was solid for all of them and mentioning them in specific to that region makes them a nice exotic flavor in another region...Overheard in Calimshan: "A Shou Disciple? What's a Shou Disciple? How the hell did you do that in armor?! Monks dont wear armor!!!"
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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I'm eager to see this as well. But I'd also like to see the core classes become trees unto themselves. I really want to see Paizo tackle variant builds for classes.
Oh, me too, definitely. I'm much more interested in the 11 base classes than the prestige classes (except the blackguard; I kinda hope that shows up in alpha 3) but still, I'm curious.
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Scrounger- A goblin Prestiege class which effectivly provides the Goblin with the ability to add Appraise Ranks to a Spot Check (Spotting something like a Key left in a lock, or a Gem in the Garbage pile).
4 Core Classes
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
Wizard
10 Core Races
Human
Elf
Goblin
Dwarf
Halfling
Gnome
Kobold
Doppleganger
Araena
Orc
Bastard Breeds
Plague Elf (Half Elf/Half Human)
Midden Elf (Half Elf/Half Orc)
Bog Elf (Half Elf/Half Troll)
Erg (Half Orc/Half Human)
PRESTIEGE CLASSES
Paladin
Ranger
Druid
Necromancer
Shadowblade
Artisan
Crusader
Scout
Race Specific Prestiege Classes
Scrounger (Goblin only)
I really like horizon walker conceptually.
There are a few things i'd like to see with regards to prestige classes.
Firstly; prestige classes with varing numbers of levels. If the classes idea can be expressed in two levels, make it a two level prestige class. if it takes 6, have it be a six level class. Don't over stretch a concept, or give it less space than it needs.
I tend to agree that archmages should be level 15 to 20 wizards.
However, i would love to see a prestige class built for specialist mages at level 15. Master of [school name]. which would give them slightly reduced advancement on their spell progression, but would allow them to continue with progession in their schools abilities, and give bonus to these. Perhapes free metamagic effect on these abilities or an improvement to the schools ability.
Until we've seen and playtested all the classes and spells to satisfaction, I think any talk of prestige class is premature and just down right wasteful.
Yes have to agree. We need to see how the base classes work first
I really like horizon walker conceptually.
There are a few things i'd like to see with regards to prestige classes.
Firstly; prestige classes with varing numbers of levels. If the classes idea can be expressed in two levels, make it a two level prestige class. if it takes 6, have it be a six level class. Don't over stretch a concept, or give it less space than it needs.
I tend to agree that archmages should be level 15 to 20 wizards.
However, i would love to see a prestige class built for specialist mages at level 15. Master of [school name]. which would give them slightly reduced advancement on their spell progression, but would allow them to continue with progession in their schools abilities, and give bonus to these. Perhapes free metamagic effect on these abilities or an improvement to the schools ability.
This is why i liked having both the full prestige classes (1-10 levels) and the intermediate prestige classes (1-5). Some concepts just dont need 10 levels to cover them. I dont think having too many variables in how many levels a prestige class has is a good idea. FIve and ten works well. At most i would say go with 2,5 and 10. But honestly, if it comes out to 2 levels then flesh it out more until 5 levels.
The various divine intermediate classes from the Realms setting (divine champion, divine seeker, divine disciple and arcane devotee) were really solid 5 level prestige classes that were nice for connecting a character to a specific deities church or a religious based campaign.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I think their is an arguement for single level prestige classes, which are accessible at low levels.
I think that most prestige classes should be droped and made be buildable with the core classes all along.
You want an arcane archer/spellblade? Make a fighter/wizard and choose the right feats/class abilities.
Prestige Classes should be exactly what they are named for: Prestigious Roles in the setting you are playing that have a very specific.. well Role.
I mean something like The Purple Dragon Knights or maybe the Red Wizards of Thay.
Know what I mean?
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I think that most prestige classes should be droped and made be buildable with the core classes all along.
You want an arcane archer/spellblade? Make a fighter/wizard and choose the right feats/class abilities.Prestige Classes should be exactly what they are named for: Prestigious Roles in the setting you are playing that have a very specific.. well Role.
I mean something like The Purple Dragon Knights or maybe the Red Wizards of Thay.Know what I mean?
I know what you mean, but I disagree. Vehemently. I think people get too caught up in the name. Prestige classes make a nice toolbox for any number of things. Limiting them to what you suggest would be selling the system short.
I don't care about the name, I care about the general use of Prestige Classes as they are right now.
It's just that for each and every thing it appears a Prestige Class is needed.
Let's take the Thief Acrobat. It's abilities could also be easily incorporated into the Rogue.
Or the Duelist, or the Archmage, or ...
I just say: Make the Core Classes A LOT more flexible and customizable, so all those Prestige Classes that are just like "multiclassing-but-in-one-class" aren't needed anymore.
F.e. I REALLY like PrC like the Bloodmage, but those Thief acrobats, duelists, tempests and what not else, really p*sses me off!
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I don't care about the name, I care about the general use of Prestige Classes as they are right now.
It's just that for each and every thing it appears a Prestige Class is needed.
Let's take the Thief Acrobat. It's abilities could also be easily incorporated into the Rogue.
Or the Duelist, or the Archmage, or ...I just say: Make the Core Classes A LOT more flexible and customizable, so all those Prestige Classes that are just like "multiclassing-but-in-one-class" aren't needed anymore.
F.e. I REALLY like PrC like the Bloodmage, but those Thief acrobats, duelists, tempests and what not else, really p*sses me off!
Of the examples you listed, I can see your point on about half. But just because we have a fighter class doesn't mean that, for instance, the Dervish PrC is pointless. Some other examples I like are things like the Shadowbane Inquisitor or eldritch disciple that make odd multiclass combinations viable options. I'd rather play a shadowbane inquisitor than a paladin10/rogue 10, even if the class abilities from paladin and rogue partially carried into the new prestige class because there's stuff in that PrC that isn't in either the paladin or rogue class that makes the disparate abilities from the two component classes synergize better. An even better example might be the skullclan hunter. The proverbial elephant in the room with a lot of the "multiclass facilitators" is that they do more than continue a few key class abilities; they also tend to contribute "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" abilities to the equation. The obvious exception to this is the mystic theurge, but even in the DMG, you see a solid example: the arcane trickster. Things like impromptu sneak attack and ranged legerdemain are and SHOULD only available to people who have bother to train in both covert ops/skullduggery skills AND magic. They represent the synergy of two disparate skill sets. Another excellent example is the arcane hierophant and its familiar companion. Rather than the druid/wizard(or sorcerer) having a small, delicate, intelligent familiar and a big, dumb but durable animal companion, he focuses all of his efforts on one creature and imbues it with both intelligence and sturdiness. An eldritch disciple infuses his blast with positive energy and heals an allay from across the battlefield. An eldritch theurge tacks a fireball onto his eldritch blast and takes out an enemy general and his entire lower-level command staff with one well-placed shot. A skullclan hunter sneaks into a vampire's castle and takes the beast down with single, quick volley of lethal sword blows. I LOVE stuff like that. None of that's possible with feats or multiclassing, and I don't think it should be. Tricks like the ones mentioned above should require the kind of dedication taking levels of a PrC represents.
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I really like horizon walker conceptually.
There are a few things i'd like to see with regards to prestige classes.
Firstly; prestige classes with varing numbers of levels. If the classes idea can be expressed in two levels, make it a two level prestige class. if it takes 6, have it be a six level class. Don't over stretch a concept, or give it less space than it needs.
I tend to agree that archmages should be level 15 to 20 wizards.
However, i would love to see a prestige class built for specialist mages at level 15. Master of [school name]. which would give them slightly reduced advancement on their spell progression, but would allow them to continue with progession in their schools abilities, and give bonus to these. Perhapes free metamagic effect on these abilities or an improvement to the schools ability.
I agree conceptually. I really don't care for the 10 level prestige classes. 5, 4, and 3 level prestige classes are fine.
Of course, Paizo may be in a better position to just leave the litany of prestige classes (and other core classes) alone and present in the Pathfinder RPG a short chapter on converting classes. Actually, I think a chapter like that is a necessity regardless.
Archmage, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge: My problem with these prestige classes is that they give full caster progression PLUS additional abilities. I really think that at least one level of spellcasting should be sacrificed for each of these prestige classes.
Archmage is too easy, agreed. Loremaster prereq's are *really* stringent, I think it works fine. Mystic Theurge has the argument (that I don't fully agree with) that you are sacrificing 3 levels of spellcasting by multi-classing in the first place to take it. Making every third level or so an "either or" level works for me.
However, since Specialist and Domain abilities are *class* features now, that is an additional loss to taking these, which greatly lessens the brokenness inherit in them. Additionally Archmage sacrifices spell slots for its abilities, which are scarcer due to this as well.Archmage: Open up Arcane Fire to be any type of energy.
Arcane Fire is typeless currently, not fire. Adjusting it to "Any" type, instead of "None" works for me, but I don't think that was your issue with it.
Duelist: Kill the prestige class and roll Canny Defense, Grace, Acrobatic Charge and Elaborate Parry into Combat Maneuvers, giving some teeth to a Fighter who wants to be a Dex fighter (or a Rogue who chooses Combat Maneuver as his Rogue Talent).
I've only seen two Duelists - a 15th level epic vampire NPC one that was an absolute monster, and a 2nd level one that hasn't really gotten into it's abilities yet. It seems nicely balanced to me generally though.
Hierophant: The divine equivalent of Archmage, which doesn't get automatic spell progression, which I think should be remedied.
I used to agree, but noted that Hierophant *does* get caster level progression, and doesn't require sacrificing spell slots. They seem roughly balanced, if not necessarily equal choices.
Horizon Walker: Fire this prestige class, or give it some reason for Rangers to consider it. Right now, it's pretty weaksauce.
Give it reason - way too cool a name to waste, otherwise full agreement.
Shadowdancer Rangers have to wait until 17th level to get Hide in Plain sight and Shadowdancers get it at 1st level? Yeah, that's fair.
Just wanted to note that they get different kinds of Hide in Plain sight (natural setting vs. shadows) - I'd say it's fair all things considered, but the one dip into shadowdancer (a fairly easy class to take) can be a bit annoying.
Thaumaturgist switched to arcane or divine
Definitely - so weird that its not. Also - it seems that almost *any* caster taking this class would already have Augment Summoning, especially given the prereq's. That needs to be a replaceable power, or just a prereq for the class.
Hierophant only advances Caster Level, it does not grant you access to new spells. This is very different from the Archmage who does get spell level progression. Archamges will get 9th level spells, Hierophants won't.
Mastery of Energy would need to be revised anyways give the change in turning rules. Hierophant really could stand some revision.
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A lot of people's first impression of the Horizon Walker is that it's underpowered. In truth, it's a pretty powerful prestige class. It pops up every so often on the wizards boards.
It may not be the overpowered PrC that IotSFV is but it has some respectable class abilities at most levels:
1) You are immune to fatigue, and anything that would cause you to become exhausted makes you fatigued instead. Think combination with barbarian, half-vampire template, or just plain immunity to a lot of spells that induce exhaustion.
2) You have 60-foot darkvision, or 120-foot darkvision if you already had darkvision from another source.
3) +4 bonuses on Hide, Listen, Spot, Move Silently, Climb, and Swim
4) Climb and Swim speed increases
5) The nifty Dimension Dooring