OK, SW: SAGE did it, and the horrible 4e is probably doing it, and D20 Modern did it too. How about adding Talent trees to each class? Perhaps even rather than the exta abilities per level and specialist schools? Just a thought, but it would add more versatility to each class and make it easier, in my opinion, to balance everything. Preference wise, something along the lines of way SW:SAGA did would be fine for me.
I first saw talent trees in d20 Modern and was rather impressed with them. Already the 3e ranger is headed in that direction with the combat mastery stuff. Why not expand it? Reasons I could see might be lack of time, resources (space, ideas), and/or backward compatibility.
One of the reasons I brought this up is the fact that even with the mods added by Pathfinder, the core classes are still a bit underwhelming when compared to those from Tome of Battle and tome of Magic, not to mention ohter D20 supplements. Talent trees would put the Core Classes on more evn footing I think, and would only need to be available for the Core Classes.
Talent Trees are also a good way to improve overview.
I mean the layout of the Talent trees is just way better then those long texts in the 3.5/PF books.
Oh so way ahead of you. I was doing this prior to Paizo's announcement for my own version. Granted it's not really backwards compatible in large part. d20 Modern's Talent Trees were a very inspired method for dealing with class abilities. Keep in mind these weren't even what I'd call Alpha draft status. Excerpts (this is long):
Under this rebuild all classes now get talents at 1st level and very odd level there after. This is in place of all prior 3.5 class abilities (including spell casting which is now gained through talents).
Fury Talent Tree
Rage: A barbarian can fly into a rage a once per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he has selected the tireless rage talent, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).
A barbarian can fly into a rage once per encounter. Entering a rage is an immediate action. You may use rage again during the same day by spending a base 4 energy points, increasing by 4 energy points.
Improved Rage: A barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at –2.
Prerequisites: Rage, 7 or more barbarian class levels.
Advanced Rage: A barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at –2.
Prerequisites: Rage, 15 or more barbarian class levels.
Indomitable Will: While in a rage, a barbarian gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.
Prerequisite: Improved rage.
Tireless Rage: A barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.
Prerequisite: Advanced Rage.
Acidic Fury: While in a rage, a barbarian channels elemental energy through is body and weapons. His acid resistance increase by 5, his melee weapons and natural weapons deal an extra 1d6 acid damage.
Prerequisite: Rage, acid resistance.
Concussive Fury: While in a rage, a barbarian’s sonic resistance increases by 5, his melee weapons and natural weapons deal an extra 1d6 sonic damage.
Prerequisite: Rage, sonic resistance.
Fiery Fury: While in a rage, a barbarian’s cold resistance increases by 5. His melee weapons and natural weapons deal an extra 1d6 fire damage.
Prerequisite: Rage, fire resistance.
Icy Fury: While in a rage, a barbarian’s cold resistance increases by 5. His melee weapons and natural weapons deal an extra 1d6 cold damage.
Prerequisite: Rage, cold resistance.
Shocking Fury: While in a rage, a barbarian’s electricity resistance increases by 5. His melee weapons and natural weapons deal an extra 1d6 electricity damage.
Prerequisite: Rage, electricity resistance.
Whirling Fury: While raging, a barbarian may forgo most of the normal benefits of rage and instead focus on his speed. The barbarian retains his bonus to Strength, but loss his bonus to Constitution and Will saves. He does not suffer a penalty to his armor class while raging. Instead gains dodge bonus to his armor class and reflex saves, equal to the bonus he would normally receive on his Will saves.
While using whirling rage, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
Prerequisite: Rage, improved fast movement.
Weapon Supremacy Talent Tree
Weapon Focus: You gain Weapon Focus as bonus as feat.
Weapon Specialization: Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon. You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. You may increase this damage bonus to +6 for one round by paying 5 energy points.
Perquisites: Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 5.
Weapon Mastery: Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Specialization. When using other weapons in the same category as your chosen weapon you gain +1 bonus to attack rolls and opposed checks. This bonus does not stack with the one you gain from weapon focus. You can add the damage bonus from Weapon Specialization to these weapons for encounter by spending 9 energy points.
Perquisites: Weapon specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 9.
Improved Focus: The attack bonus with your chosen weapon increases to +2
Perquisites: Weapon focus, fighter level 7.
Improved Specialization: Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Specialization. You gain an additional +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon (+4 total). You may increase this damage bonus to +6 for one round by paying 6 energy points.
Perquisites: Improved weapon focus with selected weapon, weapon specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 11.
Improved Mastery: The attack bonus your gain from weapon mastery increases to +2.
Perquisites: weapon mastery, improved weapon specialization, fighter level 15.
Advanced Focus: The attack bonus with your chosen weapon increases to +3
Perquisites: Improved weapon focus, fighter level 13.
Advanced Specialization: Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Improved Specialization. You gain an additional +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon (+6 total). You may increase this damage bonus to +6 for one round by paying 6 energy points.
Perquisites: Advanced weapon focus, improved weapon specialization, fighter level 17.
Advanced Mastery: The attack bonus your gain from weapon mastery increases to +3.
Perquisites: weapon mastery, improved weapon specialization, fighter level 21.
I still think Talent trees are the way to go versus the expanded abilities being given to the lcasses in PF or, even worse, the ridiculous stuff WOTC is putting out for 4e.
Right. Why just have a multicaster problem with actual spellcasters when we can have every class require continual investment to keep from falling behind the power curve?
I wish I had extra arms so that I could give Talent Trees four thumbs down. They are exactly the opposite direction of anything that would be helpful to the game. Yes, Paladins and Fighters need some love. They need to be allowed to do nice things at medium and high levels. They need this badly. But they shouldn't be jacked out of viable multiclassing rules to make that work, and we shouldn't have to learn additional subsystems.
-Frank
Talents can work Mr. Trollman if they are set up correctly. Also how is that 'curve' any different from what happens now? If a character multiclasses he losses out on the class abilities of higher levels. Currently in 3.5 spell-casters have the most to loose at higher levels. But we all know that Spell-caster are overpowered when compared to their non-caster alternatives.
Again, I did give a good amount of thought to this before Pathfinder was announced. The solution was to add a feat (along with giving characters more feats, period) that increased a Character's effective level in a class by 3 (or so) for meeting requirements of Talents, and such.
What I had worked would would have allowed a Fighter/Wizard to have focused in about a single tree for each class. What the character lost in direct class abilities they gained in versatility. In the Fighter/Wizard example the character skill could have ended up being able to cast 9th level spells (however on the order of 1 per day) and have followed most of the Fighter's altered weapon specialization tree.
I can take the time and clean up what what I was working and make it available online if people are interested.
However I don't see Talent Trees being good for Pathfinder. Using them correctly requires to much of a change from 3.5, and would be better off as a 4e (but not WotC 4th, IMO they botched that implementation badly).
We've already got class talent trees - they're just hardwired. Sneak attack is a talent tree. Fighter bonus feats is a talent tree. Turn Undead is a (one level) talent tree. Spells per day is a talent tree.
If the classes were broken down and actually defined that way, it would be much easier to customize classes which would be a good thing.
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One thing to consider with Talent Trees is whether its backwards compatible. I would assume that to implement Talent Trees, you'd have to remove class special abilities for purposes of balance.
Of course, a variant I've been proposing can cover this as well - class variants. People who want different builds for their characters can take on a separate tree of special abilities, like the Urban Ranger from Unearthed Arcana, or the Urban Druid, from Dragon Magazine, or perhaps mix and match.
It would seem that building in variants would be much easier and much more backwards compatible than developing talent trees.
But again, this is not to say that I don't like Talent Trees. I do. Very much.