Here are my concerns about spellcaster specialists, not in any particular order.
1. Diviners:
--Their abilities are far too powerful in comparison to other specialists' abilities. The ability to act on a surprise round is huge, and the ability to cast the equivalent of true strike on the fighter once per day is icing on the cake.
2. Abjurers:
--Resistance to one energy 10 at level 20 is kind of pointless. It either should be changed to resistance to all energies, or it should be increased in value.
--Protective ward is completely negated by rings of deflection, and the amount of time it lasts is insignificant with the time taken to activate it. Perhaps the time taken to activate it could be a move action or the radius could be increased or the bonus could be increased.
3. Conjurers:
--The bonus to AC is inconsequential, especially since it can't be enchanted. Furthermore, mage armor really shouldn't be a conjuration spell, as is the general consensus (I believe). Why not give a bonus to conjured monsters (as per the class itself)? For instance, they could have the ability to cast summon monster spells as a standard action rather than a full-round action, their monsters could get bonuses, etc.
--Acid dart: it just doesn't fit the conjurer. I realize that, technically, it is conjuration, as the acid is summoned from the Elemental Plane of Acidburning (or somesuch), but the "feel" of the conjurer is not nuking. Why not change this to the summon monster equivalent of the Animal Domain?
--The ability to cast summon monster I is very weak. With all the other specialist abilities, I could see myself using them. Magic missile, silent image, true strike, etc. However, summon monster I is just so bad that it hurts. Unfortunately, there's not a lot to choose from in the PHB in order to make a suitable replacement, so I'm not sure what to suggest for this one.
4. Enchanters:
--A +6 to social skills is okay, but enchanters will still be lacking in the social skills department. Perhaps Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidate could be made class skills?
--An enchanter actually trying to use dazing touch is a dead enchanter. This should be given a range, and the HD limit is really harsh. Perhaps this could be increased to HD+4, at the least (especially with the once-affected-immune-for-a-day limit)?
5. Evokers:
--The evoker's specialist bonus is pretty weak. It's like a crippled version of the warmage's edge. Considering the existence of save-or-dies/save-or-you're-screweds, this needs to be bumped up a little. My suggestion was to make spells that do dice of damage do +1 damage per dice. (Of course, even then damage spells are weak. It might be balanced to allow the +1 damage/die and the +5 damage.)
6. Necromancers:
--As with the enchanter, a necromancer trying to use this ability is a dead necromancer. I understand that it's supposed to "finish off" wounded enemies, but a range on it would be nice (especially considering that enemies don't really have a chance to stabilize).
7. Transmuters:
--The transmuter ability is outdone by items that cost 36,000gp. The transmuter's ability either needs to be changed so that it's more than +6 at level 20, or it needs something else in its place.
--The telekinetic fist doesn't make much sense for a transmuter. In fact, that seems more like an evoker thing (what with the punching force and all). Yes, telekinesis is a transmutation spell, but it still doesn't seem to fit. I think that it would better fit the transmuter to give him the ability to grow natural weapons--maybe one at level 1, two at level 5, and three at level 10? (His low HD and BAB would keep this from being too powerful, methinks.)
8. Why is the save for the abilities based on Charisma? I know they're SLAs, but come on, they're going to be pretty useless for a wizard if they have a Cha-based save.
Aside from these things, I love what you’re doing with the game. Keep up the good work!
As with the enchanter, a necromancer trying to use this ability is a dead necromancer. I understand that it's supposed to "finish off" wounded enemies, but a range on it would be nice (especially considering that enemies don't really have a chance to stabilize).
Assuming that you are talking about the grave touch ability, I think a range on it would be too much.
Anyhow, one of my players and I were just discussing the necromancer in particular, and specialists in general on our own messageboards. Rather than rehash it all, I'll just post the exchange:
I took a scan through the new rules for pathfinder wizards and specialists and generally I don't like them. They seem to turn specialists into mini prestige classes but take away a lot of flexibility. All wizards basically have to specialize (there is universal for those that don’t want to pick the others but you still have that as a specialty. Also you get a better hit die – d6, which should really make everyone want to be a wizard sine the d4 hit die is the worst thing about them.
Specifically for necromancer:
It seems like you lose the bonus necro spell/level/day but in exchange get
- Can control double the amount of undead as normal at any given time (This is the biggest benefit but to be fair might be a bit out of balance as I could basically have control over 8 melee NPCs of my level
- Gain some spell like abilities that are basically necromancer spells (this I don’t really like because it says I have to use these spells instead of picking my own extra necro spells per day
- Access to prohibited spells in exchange for giving up bonus powers for the day (this seems silly to me, I shouldn’t get access to prohibited schools at all) and I’d rather pick my own extra necromancy per day ability by picking my extra spells per day out each day rather than go by their pre-selected “school powers” that do the same thing with less fun for me
- No longer required to make one of your 2 free spells per level in your specialty (seems odd to me that this was dropped)In the end, I think the new rules for wizards/specialist force you to give up some flexibility and in exchange (at least for necromancers) you get to be way more powerful than you should be.
Good analysis.
To counterpoint somewhat, I think part of this is because you are actually playing your 3.5 necromancer as a specialist (focusing on necromancy spells to a significant degree, using your undead schtick, etc.), whereas I think many people choose a specialty for the extra spells but then just play it as generalist wizard (i.e. other than the token domain spell, most other spells have just as much of a chance from being from any other school). So in that sense, the more tightly focused Pathfinder versions does a good job of making a necromancer feel much different than say, an enchanter.
At any rate, I agree that some of the stuff sounded a little over the top, which is why I suggested discussing the rules rather than just telling you to go ahead with them. And since you don't like them either, it's a no-brainer, we'll stick with the current version for the time being.
For the sake of perspective, my groups reception of other Pathfinder rules so far is as follows. My players all welcomed the new race rules with open arms (party includes humans, a half-elf, and an elf (played by Toocan, above). We tried the CMB grapple (only once so far, too soon for significant feedback). We discussed the new Turn Undead and the reaction was favorable, but it hasn't come up in play yet. Finally, we discussed the skill system briefly, but the players all prefer to spend points on their own (though I like the new system as potential NPC shortcut).
What did Davelozzi see as "over the top" about the specialists?
Well, i am assuming he means doubling the HD of undead I can control. Having quadruple the melee power of my 4 player party (and all the other wizard spells) just seems bad for the enjoyment of the rest of the players. and my hit dice are better.
for me, I don't like my extra spells that I pick getting traded for spell likes someone else picked and havine the DCs all shrink because my charisma is 5 (Int 18 or 20 with new elf rules)
Ah, that. Well, if it makes you feel any better, necromancers would still be overpowered without the doubling.
In general - fewer spells and more abilities - why grant spells to people who cast spells, give them something more unique when possible
For Abjurers:
I like these: 1st, 8th, 12 (boring but ok), 20th.
I'm not thrilled with these:
2nd: Shield - This is boring but livable. How about at 10th+ specialist, you can quicken it.
4th: Resist Energy - Very boring. Make it an instant action that lasts 1 round. Think Energy Aegis.
6th: Dispel Magic - Very boring. Allow conversion of spells to use in counterspells. This is the abjuration specialist.
10th: Stone Skin - Nope! What about counterspell as an immediate action 2/day
14th: Spell turning – Nope! I like it once a day, but make it an option upon making a successful save against a spell. In effect, that makes it an immediate action, but certainly more flavorful.
16th: Spell Immunity - Nope. Allow the Abjurer to sacrifice a spell of equal level the spell/effect he failed a save on to re-roll a save once a day, or sacrifice a spell of equal level to allow a save when none is allowed. 1/day
18th: Prismatic Sphere - Nope! He may not even be able to cast the other prismatic spells, so I do not like this flavor wise. I'd suggest allow him to ignore an abjuration spell or effect cast at (his level, his level +4 if not cast by an abjurer) 1/day. Walk through a foes prismatic sphere/wall of force/what ever.
Bob
The conjurer list
1st Acid Dart - Conjure obstacle (wind/water...), as standard action, block a single attack with a burst of element, giving that attack a -4 to hit. Now the conjurer can do something every round, even if not adding directly to damage dealt.
2nd Summon Monster I - a useless spell and boring. What about conjuring a burst of wind/water...), that forces a target to save or else move a 5' square chosen by target. x/day
4th Web - Boring! Conjurations are quicker, so summon monster becomes viable!
6th Stinking Cloud - Boring! Summon/conjure can appear in an occupied square - reflex save or knock target prone, if made the summon/conjure fails or is knocked into an adjacent square. 1/day
8th Dimensional Steps - this one I like.
10th Major Creation - boring, but it fits the theme.
12th Wall of Iron - boring, and kind of weird (hey, all conjurers like to summon iron walls, its fun!) I'd rather the ability to offset 1/day, summon a visible barrier to another location long enough to sneak through (like passwall, but w/out same limits). I can offset the door (summon the door I want through to this corner of the room, pass through, and then it goes back to were it was.
14th Plane Shift - boring, but it fits the theme.
16th Maze - boring, but it fits the theme.
18th Gate – boring, but it fits the theme.
20th Summoning Master - I like this one!
Perhaps replace one of the boring ones with the ability to undo a teleport 1/day (recall that friend that got teleported away against his will, or go back to where you teleported from last round).
Another could be take over a summoned creature, or perhaps a banishment/dismissal against summoned creatures x/day?
Bob
Ah, that. Well, if it makes you feel any better, necromancers would still be overpowered without the doubling.
Well, ok sure. Maybe. So then you double their key ability?
In general - fewer spells and more abilities - why grant spells to people who cast spells, give them something more unique when possible
I dont' really agree with that... spells are why you become a wizard and the spells you pick make you unique. For a 3.5 specialist, you are supposed to give up 2 schools AND 1/2 of your free spells should come from your specialist school.
If the goal of this change was to give abilities instead of spells to make you unique - then it fails at that by replaceing self selected spells (unique) with pre selected abilities (same for everyone) that mostly mimic spells but are less likely to work becasue they rely on cha not int.
oh and
"6. Necromancers:
--As with the enchanter, a necromancer trying to use this ability is a dead necromancer. I understand that it's supposed to "finish off" wounded enemies, but a range on it would be nice (especially considering that enemies don't really have a chance to stabilize)."
toss in spectral hand (2nd lvl spell) and you have a decent range on any touch spell and a +2 to hit.
Well, ok sure. Maybe. So then you double their key ability?
All wizards are overpowered, even evokers. Not much one can do about it.
Universal school has wish as an SLA, and SLAs "ha[ve] no verbal, somatic, or material component[s], nor [do they] require a focus or have an XP cost."
To be honest, it's not that bad--at that level, who cares about an extra 25k gp per day?--but still, it's a tad...unfair?
yeah, I guess they just don't need a boost and they are getting one so it seems silly.
Well, I think discussing the actual powers is somewhat tedious, as everyone seems to have different opinions on rather special problems. Like surprise rounds, which do not happen very often in the games I know.
But aside from that, I think the current concept behind specialist wizard design has more problems than the actual design itself. In another thread, I said that specialist do not feel really special. But the concept seems to be to make them feel special. It does not seem that they should be able to cast more spells of their specialty (3.5E), or to cast spells which are harder to resist, but to do rather unique things that make them feel different.
Let me give an example. I think the best designed specialist is the Diviner. Why that? Because his powers, although some of them are also spell-like abilites, are completely in line with the concept. And the scrying powers are pretty unique. So that one works quite nicely (if maybe a little too good), I guess.
The Evoker on the other hand is pretty, well, boring. The little difference in damage just is not enough to make the class feel like being the „artillery“. Which is what the class, at least to me, is all about. What’s worse now is that his „specials“ are actually worse than spells cast by another Enchanter with the same Int score.
So while the Diviner works, at least for me, many of the others don't. They are not better at casting, they cannot cast more, and they do not feel special.
I hope you see my point. What would I hope for, from a player’s perspective, If "making feel Specialist special" really IS the design concept for Pathfinder Specialist:
Make it feel special. If you play a specialist, you and only you should be able to do it. If someone else can do it, you should be significantly better. Charisma-based SLAs probably don't help with that.
Give more choices. As it stands now, you chose being a specialist once and there you go. I think it would really help sticking with the class if you had a coice (between two spell-like abilites for example) every now and then. The „Familiar vs. Bonded Object“ choice is a very good example for a hard choice. More of that please.
What did Davelozzi see as "over the top" about the specialists?
I don't know if I was referring to the specialists in particular with that comment, I think what I meant was more along the lines that in general Pathfinder includes some definite power ups, and that we wanted to review the various changes before adopting them full cloth. Its worth noting that although I did cross-post the conversation here, the context of the original post was that it was made on or own boards in reference to adopting rules in our own campaign.
You make some good points, Daeinar.
My thoughts on these guys is very different.
Here are my concerns about spellcaster specialists, not in any particular order.
1. Diviners:
The Diviner absolutely blows. Badly. The strength of Diviners is adapting to situations and circumventing plot-based obstructions. But the Diviner presented here actually has fixed divinations that may or may not be useful for any particular adventure. Even the ones selected are pretty obscure a lot of the time. I mean seriously, tongues? We're seriously not even talking about something that you could build a strategy around like clairvoyance.
The Diviner should get abilities that make them capable and effective at finding information. But they don't. A Diviner should probably be Sensing Motive and Finding Traps (currently Deception and Perception). A Diviner should probably be getting more versatility out of their Divinations - possibly allowing them to spontaneously convert prepared divinations into different known divinations or something. As is, writing Diviner on your sheet just means that if the DM tries to stump you with Invisible Stalkers or obscure languages you're covered. That's totally weak sauce, because it's way too obscure.
2. Abjurers:
The Abjurer sucks hard. Defensive powers are in general not as good as offensive powers. Energy Resistance 5 is simply never a big deal at any level. The protective Ward just doesn't matter in the face of casting magic circle against evil.
Abjurers need to up in your face protecting the party from attacks in real and meaningful fashion from level 1.
3. Conjurers:
The Conjurer is very strong, but schizophrenic and doesn't really get his thing until several levels in. Battlefield control spells like web and stinking cloud are awesome in their effect and scale smoothly and effectively out to quite high levels. Dimension Step is strong and useful eternally once it becomes available, and I sincerely don't think the authors even understand how ridiculously powerful major creation is when cast as a spell-like ability (as written you can simply put enemies into Adamantine cages with no save allowed. You can even cover them in acid without making an attack roll or allowing a save). Major Creation is normally forbidden as a combat spell because of its long casting time alone, but a spell-like ability is always used as a standard action.
In any case, at low level the Conjurer doesn't even give a hint of the kind of character he is going to be. The random (and useless) AC bonus, the totally out-of-place (and again useless) Acid Dart, it definitely drags for the first several levels. Frankly, Summoning Master should be the first level ability. Having a celestial hawk following you around all day is perfectly reasonable for a 1st level character.
4. Enchanters:The Enchanter is awesomely powerful. I will say without reservation that getting an enhancement bonus to skills without making them class skills is lame, as the lack of in-class modifiers is an effective penalty which rapidly outpaces the bonus. Things of note:
- Dazing Touch needs a duration! The Daze condition does not inherently last only one round and is only removed by heal and limited wish. So seriously any ability which gives the Dazed condition should also give a duration. Seems like it would be 1 round. It's still a really good ability, even though the hit die limits are rather harsh (most level appropriate monsters actually have more hit dice than you).
- Why don't you ever get Charm Monster? That's really weird.
5. Evokers:
The Evoker is weak sauce at all levels, especially low levels. He hands out small amounts of damage and we cry for him. His special powers are dumb and his attacks are small. I would rather have a PHB Barbarian on the team than a Pathfinder Evoker. Small amounts of damage delivered by a fragile character. It's really grim until wall of force comes on the scene.
6. Necromancers:
As stated elsewhere extensively, the Necromancer abilities are completely worthless until like 7th level. And most of this is completely unthematic. The Necromancer needs a schtick and a direction. Right now it's just a mess. A haphazard list of non-synergizing spells taken at random from various exclusive necromancer concepts.
7. Transmuters:
The Transmuter needs to decide if he's going to be changing guy, telekinesis guy, or buffing guy. The current transmuter is schizophrenic and as a direct result ineffective.
-Frank
Well, we might disagree on some thins, but we do agree that there is a lack of focus in the specialist abilities. Maybe characters should just be able to choose a single specialist spell to be used as an SLA 1/day?
Right, but still to me this sounds like YOU get to pick for ME the spells I get to use. Sure, you call them spell like abilities so that they are less powerful, but still.
I like choices in the game.
I'd prefer that at certain levels a specialist receives a few limited choices of his special school based on several class spells or class themes. Possibly a lower level spell with meta applied to it.
All PC specialists wouldn't be the same but there can always be the generic default based on most specialist choosing specific abilites.
Right, but still to me this sounds like YOU get to pick for ME the spells I get to use. Sure, you call them spell like abilities so that they are less powerful, but still.They're not spells, they're spell-like abilities, which are MORE powerful. SLAs give so many benefits, primarily: no material components, standard action casting time, and don't need a spell book. Suddenly no wizard is helpless without his spell book, and every specialist can do certain things even when caught unprepared.
The challenge is that not every spell can be safely turned into a spell-like ability without game-breaking consequences. Thus, the compromise is a pre-generated list of options, probably with the stipulation that the GM is free to remove or add to the list for home games.
Another consideration: a list of SLAs, such as I suggest above for Necromancy, can include spells not normally available to wizards, such as raise death or deathward. I'd love to see every specialist list have a few unique or out-of-class SLAs (much like the psion).
Finally, granting many uses, or a meta-magiced use, of a low-level spell provides a lot of flavor. A free teleport cast as a swift action is priceless, especially if I didn't need to invest in Quicken Spell-like Ability to get it (presently no list gives that, but the conjuration or universal list could). Even using summon monster I several times a day -- while mechanically weak against the BBEG -- provides much flavor. A conjurer's mansion will always be staffed, she will always have low-level goons to throw at possible traps or to ferry items from here to there or to misdirect foes, etc.
My main concern is that the current Alpha 1.1 incarnation offers NO choices, and many of the assigned elements are... unfocused. Conjuration is a particularly unfocused list, notably because the conjuration school is burdened with the 3.5 designers' need to make it 'useful.' I'd say, let the evoker do artillery damage, and let the conjurer...
^ What he said.
Somewhere else I posted examples of tiered abilities, so specialists work similar to rogues.
I reprint the Necromancer below.
I suspect the abilities could be a little more "special" but this was for proof-of-concept. After a month, I still believe this is an example of a better way to handle specialists.
Necromancy School - Lesser Talents
At levels 1, 2, 4, 6 and 8, select one talent from the list below. You can use each selected talent as a spell-like ability. Options:
--Grave Touch (at will)
--Ray of enfeeblement (1/day per 2 caster levels)
--False life (1 hr/level spread over one or more recipients)
--Detect undead (at will)
--Hide from undead (extends to 4 other party members, 1/day)
--Animate dead (skeletons and zombies only, duration 1 hour (?), a total number of Hit Dice equal to or less than caster level)
--Disguise self (3/day, but only to appear as undead)Necromancy School - Advanced Talents
At levels 10, 12 and 14, select one talent from the list below. You can use each selected talent as a spell-like ability 1/day unless stated otherwise. Options:
--Polymorph (undead form only, 1/day as swift action)
--Create undead (1/day)
--Finger of death (1/day)
--Speak with dead (at will but still subject to spell's limitations)
--Vampiric Touch (3/day)
--Spectral hand (at will)
--Deathward (self only, 1/day as swift action)Necromancy School - Archmagi Talents
At levels 16, 18 and 20, select one archmagi talent from the list below. You can use the selected talent as a spell-like ability 1/day unless stated otherwise. Options:
--Horrid Wilting (1/day)
--Energy Drain (1/day)
--Deathless (type changes to undead, permanent)
--Raise Dead (1/day)
--Deathward (self only, permanent)
--Magic jar (3/day)
--Shapechange (undead form only, 1/day as swift action)
I like this, while I would like to see more abilities outside of SLA I do like them being like this.
How come no one seems to think this is broken from page 47 Necromancy?
Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you prepare spells of your opposition schools, excess undead immediately become free-willed and do not return to your control when you regain this bonus. You choose which undead are released.
Seriously with the text as written why wouldn't the Necromancer have something super good like a 8HD Vampire at first level?
Sure the DM can always over rule any PC choice in game but this is something that should be addressed with a side note.
How come no one seems to think this is broken from page 47 Necromancy?
Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you prepare spells of your opposition schools, excess undead immediately become free-willed and do not return to your control when you regain this bonus. You choose which undead are released.Seriously with the text as written why wouldn't the Necromancer have something super good like a 8HD Vampire at first level?
Sure the DM can always over rule any PC choice in game but this is something that should be addressed with a side note.
Try and control a Vampire at level 1.
isn't it assumed that you need a way to gain control? I don't think that ability kicks in until you get animate dead or something similar...
isn't it assumed that you need a way to gain control? I don't think that ability kicks in until you get animate dead or something similar...
Why would someone make that assumption?
First it clearly says the PC can control 8HD of undead per level.
Second all the other specialist abilities work from the level they are acquired so why would only Necromancers be penalized?
*Sighs.*
It is impossible for a necromancer to control undead without first getting the ability to exercise control over them. Furthermore, the 8 HD/level is in contrast to the traditional 4 HD/level limit on spellcasters. I thought this was pretty obvious.
*Sighs.*
It is impossible for a necromancer to control undead without first getting the ability to exercise control over them. Furthermore, the 8 HD/level is in contrast to the traditional 4 HD/level limit on spellcasters. I thought this was pretty obvious.
I keep reading posts along that vein but ALL the other specialist schools except universalists (which clearly notes they do not get anything) get their SPECIALS which work from level 1 so why not Necromancers? Why isn't there a note specifying that?
As presently written a 1st level Necromancer can easily be interpreted to control 8HD of undead of his choice (due to his class specialist ability) which could be game breaking depending on what is chosen (I'm thinking Shadow or Vampire here) so why not just fix the rule?
Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you prepare spells of your opposition schools, excess undead immediately become free-willed and do not return to your control when you regain this bonus. You choose which undead are released.
Abjuration School
Specialist Bonus: You gain resistance 5 to an eneregy of your choice, chosen when you prepare your spells. This resistance can be changed each day. At 11th level, this resistance increases to 10.
Conjuration School
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +2 armor bonus to your armor class. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 caster levels you possess, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Divination School
Specialist Bonus: You can always act in the surprise round, but you are still considered f lat-footed until you take an action.
Enchantment School
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +2 enhancement bonus on Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 caster levels you possess, up to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Evocation School
Specialist Bonus: Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals damage, it deals +1 damage. This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray. This damage is of the same type as the spell. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 caster levels you possess, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Illusion School
Specialist Bonus: Any illusion spell you cast with a duration of “concentration” lasts an additional 2 rounds after you stop maintaining concentration. This bonus increases by 1 round for every 5 levels you possess, to a maximum of 6 rounds at 20th level.
Transmutation School
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +1 enhancement bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution). This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 caster levels you possess to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. You can change this bonus to a new ability score when you prepare spells.
Universal School
The universal school does not grant a specialist bonus.
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I too could say to have problems with wizard's specialisation granting just more and more SLAs. I'd wish for something more imaginative. Conjurers could cast summoning spells as standard actions (free Reach metamagic), Abjuration could give SR instead (10 + ½CL or something, merely an example), Evokers could apply metamagic feats to Evocation spells with one level slot lower, etc.
I keep reading posts along that vein but ALL the other specialist schools except universalists (which clearly notes they do not get anything) get their SPECIALS which work from level 1 so why not Necromancers? Why isn't there a note specifying that?As presently written a 1st level Necromancer can easily be interpreted to control 8HD of undead of his choice (due to his class specialist ability) which could be game breaking depending on what is chosen (I'm thinking Shadow or Vampire here) so why not just fix the rule?
There's nothing to fix. The control pool is a game effect that is specifically created by the spell animate dead, not by other things. So when you have a feat, a specialist bonus, or a domain which affects the number of hit dice of controlled undead you get, that doesn't do anything for you unless and until you get access to the spell animate dead. And while the traditional way to handle this involves waiting for you to get it normally, you can actually give yourself a control pool by casting from scrolls.
Of course, your control pool is also set by your caster level the last time you cast the spell, so the Necromancer Specialist ability is numerically worthless until they get to 4th level (since any scroll would set your control pool to at least 28 hit dice even without using that ability).
So yeah, the ability is completely worthless for low level characters, simply by virtue of the fact that it directly affects spells that low level characters currently do not and cannot know. That makes it badly written power, but it doesn't make it in any way unclear as to what it does. It doesn't, for example, allow you to dumpster dive through monster manuals and grab hugely powerful undead. You actually have to create them with spells, meaning that generally speaking your undead are going to be pretty weak compared to your level.
-Frank
Folks -- the spell-like abilities should be distinctly worse than a free spell slot since the disadvantage to casting a "prohibited" spell is so small. The Pathfinder specialist wizard is basically the 3.5 generalist wizard with some extra SLAs added (and maybe another bonus ability, depending on his spell list for the day). Personally, I think the abilities should be quite weak (the 3.5 generalist wizard is strong enough as-is, IMO) and the abilities for the "Universal" specialist should be even weaker still.
For the folks worried about Wish as an SLA, I believe that it was mentioned that all XP costs would be eliminated, so Wish will have to be rewritten anyways.
Regarding the unfocused or haphazard layout of the spell like abilities. I really don't have a problem with this. The character progression of the wizard can be focused without this list then adding to the already powerful class that is the wizard. I don't see the need to specifically focus these abilities and wouldn't really want to.
Basically the wizard is powerful enough without giving him spell like abilities that conform to an optimized character build. I can see heading somewhat in the direction seeing they are specialists but I don't see the need for optimization.
Also, these SLA's are more powerful because they don't leave the wizard defenseless but at the same time are less powerful because they don't increase via his primary statistic as well. When the enchanter goes to use his 10th level ability of Hold Monster that uses his 13 charisma and then looks at it in comparison to his memorized spell that uses his modified 24 intelligence, there will be a realization that while these abilities are good to have they aren't overpowering, especially given the consideration that you will now not be able to pick one specifically for the right situation. Anybody who loves (or hates) the wizard can tell you how useful that ability is.
I'm more concerned about the same type of abilities used on the sorc and pray that they will be available to the bard who needs a step-stool.
As for unique powers, I certainly don't have a problem with that idea...but I'm not sure they all have to mesh in a cohesive way to make the class more powerful. Adding deathward and perhaps changing the 6th level ability to something that resembles desecrate would be good, but wouldn't really have to be the desecrate spell.
For example, you could give an aura ability that effects undead you have created or controlled, giving them +1 to attack, damage, saves, and giving them 1 temporary hit point/HD...then have this bonus increase to +2 at 15th level. You could call it, "Death Link", or some name like that without giving it the other powers that should be reserved for the cleric (like destroying alters to gods and making it inherently evil).
I do not think that giving them stackable abilities at each level to head them to a unique and powerful specific build is a good idea though. We can still use PrC's for that and the power increase really wouldn't be needed. I am for a specialist being able to use the full measure of his selected school with effectiveness and added flavor though.
The reason to tweak abilities to mesh is not for power or optimization, which I don't care about (I don't like playing hopeless characters, but I'm not a power gamer either). Instead, some people are asking for a little more focus because:
a) Some of the abilities evoke a "huh??" response.
b) A little more focus will maximize the flavor.
Well, some people are explicitly asking for more power. Here are Frank Trollman's comments on some of the specialists:
* "ineffective"* "weak sauce"
* "sucks hard"
* "absolutely blows"
And these comments are for options that are strictly more powerful than the 3.5 generalist wizard, one of the toughest (core) classes around! But I suppose what you're really competing with is not with [vanilla 3.5 wizard], but with [3.5 wizard + prestige class] which requires some extra abilities to be competitive.
I like the more flavourful, unique specialist powers myself, but the more of those you add, the more you're getting away from backwards compatibility (it seems to me).
Hmmm...am I the only one who would like to see more at-will powers and no 1/day SLAs?
Hmmm...am I the only one who would like to see more at-will powers and no 1/day SLAs?
Pretty much. Especially if they wouldn't just be Spells turned At-Will.
What is wrong with with at-will powers over SLAs? I'd personally rather see the evoker able to create icebursts and cones of flame at-will rather than getting to cast something that has a Reflex save with a DC modified by Charisma.
Thats what I said, I just want them to be original things rather than just stuffed pulled from the spell list. And is it just me or do Ice spells make more sense on the Conjurers spell list than the Evoker?
Yes and no. While summoning ice makes sense as conjuration, thermal manipulation does not. However, conjuration does everything as it is, so no boosts there.
What about this:
Every specialist gets to pick one spell from each spell level he can cast that is in his school (and on his spell book) and once per day, he can cast those spells as a spell like ability, except unlike a normal SLA, he can use his normal DC for that spell level and school AND he has to abide by the normal requirements for the spell.
That would maintain the backwards compatibility aspect of the plan.
There's nothing to fix. The control pool is a game effect that is specifically created by the spell animate dead, not by other things. So when you have a feat, a specialist bonus, or a domain which affects the number of hit dice of controlled undead you get, that doesn't do anything for you unless and until you get access to the spell animate dead. And while the traditional way to handle this involves waiting for you to get it normally, you can actually give yourself a control pool by casting from scrolls.
Of course, your control pool is also set by your caster level the last time you cast the spell, so the Necromancer Specialist ability is numerically worthless until they get to 4th level (since any scroll would set your control pool to at least 28 hit dice even without using that ability).
So yeah, the ability is completely worthless for low level characters, simply by virtue of the fact that it directly affects spells that low level characters currently do not and cannot know. That makes it badly written power, but it doesn't make it in any way unclear as to what it does. It doesn't, for example, allow you to dumpster dive through monster manuals and grab hugely powerful undead. You actually have to create them with spells, meaning that generally speaking your undead are going to be pretty weak compared to your level.
-Frank
I disagree with that interpretation since the class special doesn't specify that and all the other wizard specials work from fist level using suggested wealth by level.
Will most DMs let Necromancer - 1's control a 8 HD vampire? Probably not but as written the possiblity exists for to many games and personally it's not something I want to see discussed as being legal by RAW on the boards.
Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you prepare spells of your opposition schools, excess undead immediately become free-willed and do not return to your control when you regain this bonus. You choose which undead are released.
As currently written there is a hugely abuseable loophole regarding controlling undead since it is very easy to interpret that Necromancers control 8 HD of undead at first level and 16 HD of undead at second level and 24 HD of undead at third level and so forth because it doesn't say the necromancer had to make them or they can't have more HD than their caster which is broken.
Rewrite the necromancer class special better for the PFRPG or give the Necromancer a better class special.
The rule needs to clearly break down the undead control mechanic regarding undead type and hit dice controlled by the necromancer or it is broken as written for to many games.
Animate Dead is a level 4 arcane necromancy spell. A scroll has a market price of 1,050 gp in the DMG and the class doesn't gain the supernatural ability to animate undead without cost until Necromancer - 8.
I'm sorry, CastleMike, but you are in the minority here. What you're arguing is akin to arguing that the rules need to say that a character has to be able to breathe or he dies.
Hmmm...am I the only one who would like to see more at-will powers and no 1/day SLAs?Pretty much. Especially if they wouldn't just be Spells turned At-Will.
Me too.
I would love to see one other on each of the list because their looks like one. Perhaps since we have one damage, one RP or utility spell.
or an at-will ability like an aura. That being said, it doesn't have to be overtly powerful, IMO. One of the reasons I'm thrilled with these changes is because they add flavor without gutting the class.
Well, yeah. Castle mike is not correct about the rul, but it isn't completely clear either. I am playing a necromancer who is level 7, and so having studied how that all works, I fully realized that this was a bonus that kicks in later once you could animate/control undead. (someone less familiar with the rule could easily wonder if he gets' sumthin at 1st level)
It goes from a completely useless power to one of the more over powered specialists once you hook up with animate dead.
I mean, based on my experience with animate dead, it's a pretty sick spell if the rest of your party can deal with the fact that you’re using it. Then you get to double what you can control... so you could at 8th level be walking around with 10 6 HD troll skeletons (previously 5) then you hook up with mind poison to keep the enemy clerics at bay and your roll over everything.
Anyway, even my DM was confused about how you use this power at 1st level…
I don't see any issue with the wording. Anyway, that's neither here nor there when it comes to the point of this topic: specialist spellcasters need boosts in some cases and nerfs in others.
Also, wish as an SLA has the potential for borkenation. While 25k per day isn't a huge deal at level 20 given the average adventure, it could get more than a little ridiculous if the party wants to take a few weeks off so that the wizard can craft some items.