I play a lot of Sorcerers, mostly because I think that playing Wizards is not challenging. I have a few suggestions for the new Sorcerer:
1. Remove the 2nd level. This means that sorcerers get their spell levels at the same time as Clerics or Wizards (2nd level spells at 3rd level, for example). Having playtested this in several campaigns, I can tell you that its needed.
2. Don't do the bloodline thing only. Seriously. I know that Sorcerers need something so that you don't PrC out immediately. We accept that.
However, there are a lot of flavorful reasons to have innate magical power, and a supernatural bloodlines is only one of those.
Here are some potential ideas:
--Born under a favored star
--Reincarnated hero who remembers magic from his previous life
--Pact with demons/elemental kings/gods/ancestors/other planar forces
--Failed Wizard/Cleric/etc who could not order his mind despite his magical talent
--Peasant magician who learned his magic from scraps of magical formula he found/stole from Wizards
--Raised among the fey/demons/aranea/dragons/kenku/gnomes, and you learned their innate magic.
--Anointed in a magical place. Maybe you drank from a mysterious pool and are now a water mage or you faced your dark side in an evil temple and now draw power from that.
--Royal Blood. You gain power from a royal/priestly/guild/heroic breeding program rather than supernatural blood, or one of your parents was a powerful wizard or cleric.
--Surviver of a magic cataclysm. After the Rain of Colorless Fire, you now have fire burning in your viens.
--Mystic. You were imprisoned in a featureless cell and were almost driven mad by visions. These visions brought magic power that helped you escape.
--Artist. In your search for the perfect expression, you learned the secret of magical power.
3. Let them cast metamagic on the fly, instead of making it harder. In my experience, Sorcerers don't use metamagic unless they use a non-core book to pay feats for the ability to do it spontaneously, so they might as well just get it free instead of being double-taxed for the privilege.
4. Add a known spell per spell level. After much playtesting, this is essential to preventing player boredom. Having a choice of one spell each time you get a spell level makes being a spontaneous caster a joke.
5. Let Sorcerers cast spontaneously from a spellbook. Make them pay a higher spell slot cost or more slots or something, but give the poor Sorcerer a reason to care when a powerful spellbook of magical lore turns up.
6. Remove familiars. Its fine for Wizards, but it doesn't fit the Sorcerer's flavor. Maybe they should get an Awesome Presence ability that reflects their connection to elemental forces of magic.
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3. Let them cast metamagic on the fly, instead of making it harder. In my experience, Sorcerers don't use metamagic unless they use a non-core book to pay...
Even better: give them free metamagic feats, reflecting their use of magic is Art to the Wizard's Science; they can put a little more in it, or a little less (a la Monte Cook's Heightened & Lessened spells), they can use Stilled or Silent versions on the fly. And of course they need none of that Material Component schtick.
Good ideas, K. Personally, I think that the warlock and sorcerer need to be merged. As much as I'm not looking forward to 4e, what they're doing with the sorcerer sounds like a good, flavorful way of handling the class.
In my game I killed the warlock and gave the sorcer his stuff.blast DR stuff like that works really well
Lots of good points.
I favor more options and variants in game. I'd like to seem them based more off the base generic spellcaster class with a few freebie +1 meta Wujen Spell Secrets at every few levels or the psion class and really scaling spells/powers.
I'd like the option of taking a Bloodline feat or spell domain like the variant domain wizard with a feat.
Spell chain scaling. The first level Charm Person as a known spell can also be used as the fourth level Charm Monster spell by expending a level 4 spell slot and Mass Charm Monster with a level 8 spell slot.
In my game I killed the warlock and gave the sorcer his stuff.blast DR stuff like that works really well
I could see that working for a Pact with Devils or
Devil Bloodlline Sorcerer, but considering all the other potential character concepts, it won't work as a blanket fix.I suspect that the Devs will do something like the specialist schools and domains in the Alpha doc, but for bloodlines.
I really hope that they allow for other Sorcerer concepts.
I really hope that they allow for other Sorcerer concepts.I wouldn't mind seeing the Sorcerer class steered more in the direction of the Warlock, or at least something to help make them feel like more than a Wizard with a very small spells-known list who doesn't prepare spells in advance :D
Considering that the Sorcerer is vastly less powerful than the Wizard, and yet more user-friendly from a adventure-designer and player standpoint, I hope they get some love.
Indeed. I proposed a spell-point system, like how psionics works (but still being arcane spells), Here.
To refine my initial idea, based on some thoughts here and there, I say a re-vamped Sorcerer would be as follows:
- Bonus Feat (1st): Heighten Spell
- No penalty for using Metamagic.
- No familiar (just an idea, not a biggie) - can take the feat if desired. Replace with some kind of heritage ability, chosen at 1st level, if you like (not necessary for me, but hey, it's an idea).
- Wild Surge: as per the Wilder class (expanded psionics handbook), i.e. can boost your caster level at the risk of suffering a backlash.
- Spell Points: as per power points for a Psion (but using Cha).
- Spells Known: as per a Psion (3 x 1st at 1st level, then +2 per level; max spell level is (level +1) / 2, rounded down i.e. can take 2nd level spells at 3rd level etc.
- Cantrips: as per a pathfinder wizard, but only from the universal list (if you wanted to get fancy, you could add heritage lists, but then you'd probably also want heritage 'schools' or similar - too much for me, keep it simple)
- Spell Casting: cast any known spell, as long as you have enough spell points; caster level for a spell can be any from 1 to your own caster level (more if you wild surge); point cost is caster level chosen; DC set by Cha and free Heighten Spell means the DC goes up as you use more points. For example, using a 7th level Sorcerer with 16 Cha - cast a 1d4+1 magic missile for 1 spell point, two missiles for 3 points, four missiles for 7 points (can't get 5 missiles unless you can wild surge and/or overchannel to caster level 9); cast charm person at DC 14 and 1 hour duration for 1 point, for 7 points it's DC 17 and 7 hours.
- You can then add in feats like Overchannel and Talented, to allow further boosting of maximum caster level.
That's about it really - the idea is to be fairly simple, and yet different from the way a wizard works. The flavour is still pretty much that of the 3.5 sorcerer, and in fact the changes to the mechanics are not really radical surgery, but they get more flexibility over how they choose and use their limited number of spells known. If you want to get more fancy, add heritage abilities, and/or some kind of focus they get / can choose (e.g. +1 DC or free +1 caster level (also raises the cap) on enchantment spells).
edit: with the right choice of Cantrip, and one or more feats (Psionic Shot, modified to be less damage, and no psionic focus required) to boost the damage, you can effectively replace the need for a Warlock class here too (e.g. unlimited acid orbs).
I believe, from having a few Psions in my current campaigns now, that these changes would make the Sorcerer a much more viable choice for a PC, on par with a wizard.
Yeah, good ideas K and Lord Magus.
Heres what I've thought of:
- 4 + Int skills and better skill list
- Light Armor Proficiency and ability to cast spells in Light Armor
- More spells known
- Bonus feats like Wizard
Yeah, good ideas K and Lord Magus.
Heres what I've thought of:
- 4 + Int skills and better skill list
- Light Armor Proficiency and ability to cast spells in Light Armor
- More spells known
- Bonus feats like Wizard
Thanks.
I've noticed in Pathfinder that they already have a better skill list. They get UMD, which has been a houserule in every 3.X game I've every played. The additional skills every other level is just as good as more skills, so a blanket improvement is not needed.
On the issue of armor: I don't think armor proficiency is right. At high levels, light armor is Celestial Full Plate, so its just like heavy armor proficiency. Sorcerers don't really need to be fighting Wizards, which is what people have tried to make them
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Since I tend to look more into the flavour-side of the class, I must admire the imagination you've put on this, K. No longer is a sorcerer born since his aunt or uncle was some sort of a dragon or a magical being. This would also bring up new kinds of adventure hooks and hobbies and traditions, as youngsters attempt to achieve magical aplitude by foreign rituals, or venture to hidden caves they found abandoned.
I might suggest some sort of a list about possible ways of achieving sorcery (Favored Stars, Heir of a Hero, Royal Blood etc.), and give a minor bonus depending on which you choose. This would give further variation to the class.
I must say that armor still doesn't feel like "the thing the mages do". You also have to be wary not to make Sorcerer more powerful than a wizard. If the 2nd level is removed, they are almost on the equal level. Wizard's prestige would lie in the repository of spells, where as sorcerer would be able to cast more often, quicker, same level, and so on.
I also agree on familiars. Sorcerers have an innate way of casting spells, but it shouldn't magically bring them a bird or such. This'd be a welcome modification. Hopefully the designer are reading this proposal!
And spell books! A sorcerer always frowns when a spell book is found. I can already imagine how a sorcerer places her hand on the magic text and lets the magic flow through her, whereas the wizards would read their foes the last words they'll hear. Yeah, I like this.
Metamagic... so they could cast as a standard action? This would definitely make them useful. They'd still burn more power from the sorcerer, thus limiting the abuse of those.
More spells? Yes. Definitely. Also make sure no warmages, beguilers or such variants enter the game. They make the sorcerer frown.
Skills.. I don't think sorcerers should get all that much more than 2+int. Wizards, on the other hand, should get 4+int. They're the educated ones!
All in all, this looks very good.
Sorcerers are going to be a hard topic.
Currently, they are effective yet can be a bit boring, hence the changes should probably be 1 part mechanics and 2 parts fluff at best.
The fluff will be widely disputed though. There are a billion things you can do to make the sorc a bit more interesting, yet everybody will have a different idea on that.
I see the sorc as possibly the most debated class...already being effective in the game, not as overpowering as the cleric, Druid, and Wizard at high levels, but still seemingly wanting a bit more.
In my game I killed the warlock and gave the sorcer his stuff.blast DR stuff like that works really wellI could see that working for a Pact with Devils or
Devil Bloodlline Sorcerer, but considering all the other potential character concepts, it won't work as a blanket fix.I suspect that the Devs will do something like the specialist schools and domains in the Alpha doc, but for bloodlines.
I really hope that they allow for other Sorcerer concepts.
I dont see an issue. the blast I allow them to pick energy type such as
fire,cold,sonic,acid,negative .also I allow it to be traded for another ability examplefey:chose two of the following .they man be used at will
Pass without Trace: One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Detect Animals or Plants: Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Detect Snares and Pits: Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Faerie Fire: Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Hide from Animals: Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.
Longstrider: Your speed increases by 10 ft.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
then damage reduction well thats just the magic flowing in them. I do not give them invocations though .
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I like the idea of bloodlines, such as celestial, fey, infernal, or draconic...but it might be nice if each one wasn't a set-in-stone choice. I would think a sorcerer would harness power where they find it, and may mingle bloodlines.
I kind of like the idea of merging warlocks and sorcerers to a degree, but maybe that'll kill too much backwards compatability.
I just hope it's unique and interesting.
The changes to the wizard and cleric have been cool but not overpowering for what they traded in...in most cases they are less powerful than the versatile spell choices they had ranging 1-9.
Sorcerers don't really need a big power-up but that blank list after first level familiar is rather bland. Basically seasoning is needed rather than more meat...problem is I doubt there will be a consensus on seasoning.
As for the mechanics choices, I suggested them because they tended to be the things I corrected first through PrCs, feats, or houserules, or the things I didn't use because of the lack of PrCs, feats, or houserules.
For example, I always picked up more bonus spells ASAP through PrCs so that when I gained a new spell level I had two spells to choose from.
Another example is that in all the years of playing DnD as a player I've only played Sorcerers, and I've noted that I've never picked up metamagic. Ever.
On the topic of flavor choices, I really hope they don't pigeonhole Sorcerers into "bloodline mages." Considering that DnD is world full of magic, there should be many reasons why someone would develop magical powers naturally. The idea that you can only gain Sorcerer magic because someone in your family was a xenophile is a little gross.
A lot of this stuff sounds really good.
There seems to be a bit of a consensus about warlocks and sorcerers being merged/taking from one another. In several of my games, I completely eliminated sorcs in favor of warlocks.
My trouble with sorcerers is that their powers are supposed to be natural, but they cast spells with verbal and somatic components. Their powers should be 'point and shoot,' methinks. I don't really see how the flavor of 'born with magical powers' fits with the type of casting a wizard gets at all. At the least, everything should be stilled/silenced automatically.
Uh . . . no consensus here. I'd like to see how sorcerers work being tweaked a bit closer to what they look like in 3.5 (i.e. the same way clerics and wizards got tweaked) rather than try to bolt on Warlock tricks to them.
Plus, for backwards compatibility, I don't think it would be wise to make "core" Pathfinder sorcerers half warlocks themselves, in case someone might want to run a full on warlock from their 3.5 sources.
There was an article in Kobold Quarterly 3 that had some really interesting abilities for "bloodline" sorcerers, which didn't really change the "niche" that sorcerers occupy in the game or make them too much like warlocks.
Also, there could be a "bloodline" for naturally talented individuals, kind of like the "universal" school for wizards, that just represent someone that has a natural talent for magic without rigid schooling.
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I don't want to see Sorcerers become freaks. If you're a human, you're human.. not ten generations removed dragon. The "breeding" rules are well established through the 3 editions of D&D and have never changed. To say if you're a Sorcerer you must have a descendant of Race-X is just contradictory to me.
I'm not against the heritage feats that relate to dragon, demon, devil, etc offspring because feats actually alter that character from a character that doesn't take them but is the same race and class.
I just don't think a CORE CLASS should in anyway determine how the character came to be.
Now, if done well, I would support a specialist blend of sorcerer. Where something like bloodlines was implemented but it'd have to be along the lines of aligning yourself with that type of monster to gain it's benefits. So a elven "dragon" sorcerer wouldn't necessarily be a descendant of a dragon, but he drew his power from some kind of connection he establishes at level 1 with them. Allow each Player to decided how/why that character came to be associated with that type as part of their backstory.. just like wizards are suppose to have a reason for being specialists. But there must be a Universal specialist-like option for those that just wanted to be "natural spellcaster."
Basically if you want to be dragonesque fine, but let me be a pure blood elf that's just got a special talent for magic but doesn't need to study, or an evil human who finds an affinity with demons.
Some ideas I'd like to see:
Remove spellcraft, knowledge(arcana) as class skills. Sorcerers don't study magic, so they shouldn't know this stuff.
Eschew materials for free.
Up the number of cantrips they can cast - give them -at will- cantrips like clerics.
In general - I want more cantrips! There's lots of 3rd party cantrips out there. You can't have enough.
No familiars.
Don't let sorcerers cast spells that require and XP cost or require a material focus or anything like that.
Uh . . . no consensus here. I'd like to see how sorcerers work being tweaked a bit closer to what they look like in 3.5 (i.e. the same way clerics and wizards got tweaked) rather than try to bolt on Warlock tricks to them.
Plus, for backwards compatibility, I don't think it would be wise to make "core" Pathfinder sorcerers half warlocks themselves, in case someone might want to run a full on warlock from their 3.5 sources.
There was an article in Kobold Quarterly 3 that had some really interesting abilities for "bloodline" sorcerers, which didn't really change the "niche" that sorcerers occupy in the game or make them too much like warlocks.
Also, there could be a "bloodline" for naturally talented individuals, kind of like the "universal" school for wizards, that just represent someone that has a natural talent for magic without rigid schooling.
Sorry, I guess that was a little presumptuous of me. I'm just concerned that without a major overhaul, they'll just stay second rate wizards (where, to me, if their magic has such different sources, they should show that mechanically). What type of stuff did that bloodline do?
In the KQ 3 article, instead of a familiar you got an ancestral spirit, something that hangs around related to where you got your power from. It granted alertness, bonuses to skill checks, bonuses to the DC of your divinations, and DR 5/something based on the type of ancestral spirit (at 9th level).
You also got a bonus language based on your ancestor, and a +3 bonus to a skill check based on what the ancestor was.
A lot of it was modified familiar abilities, but the DR and the divination and skill checks were kind of an interesting change.
If you don't like the "inborn" bloodline, this could still work as a spirit that is just drawn to the sorcerer because of his power, sort of like a medium starting to speak with spirits or the like.
In the KQ 3 article, instead of a familiar you got an ancestral spirit, something that hangs around related to where you got your power from. It granted alertness, bonuses to skill checks, bonuses to the DC of your divinations, and DR 5/something based on the type of ancestral spirit (at 9th level).
You also got a bonus language based on your ancestor, and a +3 bonus to a skill check based on what the ancestor was.
A lot of it was modified familiar abilities, but the DR and the divination and skill checks were kind of an interesting change.
If you don't like the "inborn" bloodline, this could still work as a spirit that is just drawn to the sorcerer because of his power, sort of like a medium starting to speak with spirits or the like.
That's fine, but I guess I just want something more. The sorcerer is just too much like the wizard to me. I can see that a lot of people don't like the 'at will' powers, but I'm worried that giving them abilities akin to the new cleric/wiz abilities is just cointinuing the problem.
That's fine, but I guess I just want something more. The sorcerer is just too much like the wizard to me. I can see that a lot of people don't like the 'at will' powers, but I'm worried that giving them abilities akin to the new cleric/wiz abilities is just cointinuing the problem.In the KQ 3 article, instead of a familiar you got an ancestral spirit, something that hangs around related to where you got your power from. It granted alertness, bonuses to skill checks, bonuses to the DC of your divinations, and DR 5/something based on the type of ancestral spirit (at 9th level).
You also got a bonus language based on your ancestor, and a +3 bonus to a skill check based on what the ancestor was.
A lot of it was modified familiar abilities, but the DR and the divination and skill checks were kind of an interesting change.
If you don't like the "inborn" bloodline, this could still work as a spirit that is just drawn to the sorcerer because of his power, sort of like a medium starting to speak with spirits or the like.
I don't really know if a list of abilities per level is the right answer, but I do know that there is absolutely no reason to not PrC out of Sorcerer. The only thing you lose is Familiar abilities, but considering that I don't use one because I don't need the XP loss when the puny think dies.
That being said, something would have to increase with level. Here are some ideas:
1. With his mechanical hand, the Iron Sorcerer gains Construct immunities and SR as he levels.
2. The Water Sorcerer is aquatic at first level and even gains abilities like fast healing in running water and the abilty to become a living whirlpool.
3. The Lost on the Astral Plane Sorcerer gains a number of free Quickens per day, and with each new Sorcerer level applies them to higher spell levels. He also ages slower.
4. The Reincarnated Sorcerer gains feats and skills tied to his old class.
5. The Dark Sorcerer adds different damaging effects for free, and higher levels means higher spell levels (this can be like the metamagics that make a spell cause a negative level, have fear effects, or damaging effects).
6. The Genie Sorcerer gains permissions to use specific kinds of gates to the Elemental planes, and immunities to those planes.
7. The Mystic Sorcerer gains a pocket dimension like a rope trick that evolves into a magnificent mansion and then a demiplane.
8. The Kenku Sorcerer that learned the Kenku's innate magic gains an additional spell known at each level to represent "Kenku magic", and all your spells require you to have some kenku feature like a magic mask, cloak of kenku feathers, or wing grafted on.
9. The Pacted Sorcerer gains both responsibilities and powers as he advances. So while he may gain a spell-like at one level, he can only use it if he sacrifices a goat that day. PrCing will only advance responsibilities.
10. The Born under a Favored Star Sorcerer get a bonus to a single skill, and the ability to alter his own luck.
I think the Sorcerer should be distinguished based on what he is. He's a charisma based pure caster.
The word "charisma" refers to a rare gift/trait perhaps given by divine providence found in certain human personalities usually including extreme charm and a 'magnetic quality of personality'.
A sorcerer, then, excels in convincing others to do what he wants. Personally, I would extend that to mean 'can convince supernatural entities such as demons, nature spirits, etc. to do what he wants'.
I would also use magic as an explanation for how his gift manifests - that is, use magic to convince others to do what he wants. That would primarily be illusions and charms.
He's not an entertainer like the bard. He doesn't worship gods like the cleric. He doesn't study old dusty scrolls.
It seems like you want the Sorcerer to be the Bard. Considering how the poor 3.X Bard needs a rewrite, your ideas can go there. The bard really can just be someone who dazzles with illusions and enchantments at low level, and at high level bargains with outsiders.
I alway considered Sorcerers to be exactly what the flavor text implies: users of arcane magic whose power does not come from formulas and texts. Considering the number of potential character concepts that both aren't already represented and naturally would fall under a Sorcerer-type class, I think it should stay as it is.
I think tearing a rift in time and space in order to make contact with an alien being of great power and then connive that being into, for example, causing it to rain acid upon your enemies is well beyond the scope of the bard. Of course, that may just be my personal opinion.
Well, I've never heard a party member say "Oh no, its a bard!"
I think a Bard is perfect for seducing a powerful being from another plane to come under its own steam. Evil bards could threaten demons and good bards could beseech angels and neutral bards could flatter faeries or out-logic elementals. You could even give them Final Fantasy-type summons where the monster appears, casts its spell, then vanishes by the end of the turn.
They could also put to sleep armies, fight and cast spells, and generally be the Bard of 2e that people actually respected. 3e took a powerful class and made it into a Rogue/Sorcerer with none of the strong points of either (or even the balance of a real multi-class with a double progression PrC).
The whole "give the party a nearly meaningless bonus" power-set has to go. Turn them back into warrior poets with roguish skills, and I might care again.
I agree with K on this one, making the Sorcerers masters of illusion, deceit, and summoning/conjuring is more the province of Bards than Sorcerers. I play mostly Sorcerers, so I'm very interested to see what comes out of the next release. I particularly like what has been discussed about the different heritages (and I don't just mean the bloodlines). The only thing I worry about with them is if they allow for mixed bloodline/heritage, it might give the Sorcerer too much power.
I particularly like what K has suggested for the heritages because they seem to be well thought out and fit with the current image of the Sorcerer. Though the arcane points idea has some interesting concepts, I think it varies too far from the 3.5e Sorcerer.
I agree that the Sorcerer should get some kind of mechanics upgrade, possibly using free Metamagic feats (I also have never really used them except when I played a Tainted Sorcerer), but should get a major fluff overhaul. The Sorcerer has too many weaknesses compared to the Wizard just because he/she can spontaneously cast. The Sorcerer needs something to really differentiate his/herself from the Wizard other than just being a spontaneous caster.
I agree that the class could probably lose the Knowledge(arcana) skill, but there is no way that it could lose the Spellcraft skill. That skill has too many uses (from being aware of what spells are going on around the caster and recognizing spell effects to being able to craft your own spells when you get to epic levels) to get pulled from the Sorcerer's skill list.
Sorcerers gaining spells of new levels at the same rate as wizards would make them dramatically more viable and awesome. It would also be an excellent precedent for other spontaneous classes with the same problem, like Favored Soul.
Removing Knowledge: Arcana would be a terrible idea, but for a reason that may not be apparent: it's a prerequisite for a LOT of arcane prestige classes. This is a(nother) problem I've run into with Favored Souls; they don't get Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, and they also don't get Turn Undead, which leaves them with about nil full-spell-progression non-arcane-only prestige classes.
Rather than "making the Sorcerers masters of illusion, deceit, and summoning/conjuring," why not make sorcerers the masters of magic? Sure, wizards get a few abilities to complement their studies, but sorcerers should have the raw power of the arcane at their disposal. I would almost like to see an Incarnum-esque system where sorcerers have a pool of "essence" that they infuse into the spells they cast (where "spells" are "at-will powers"). That is probably too great a deviation from the norm (and more than a little 4e, I suspect).
This may not be a popular idea, but what about using the OGL Expanded Psionics rules for sorcerers, and making "mind magic" a "source" of magic for Sorcerers?
My big thing would be at-will powers and versatility. Also, psionics doesn't do necromancy or illusions, unfortunately.
Bard weapon and melee abilities are important for about two levels of their whole lives. They don't get sneak attack, or full base attack, or rage, or anything. They fight like an Aristocrat or an Expert. An NPC class with a medium BAB and a martial weapon. At very low levels, having a long sword to fall back on when spells don't work is a good deal. It's moderately important. But at high level, your attacks don't even hit enemies of your level unless you load up on strength enhancements, full bab, fighter feats, offensive class features and so on and so forth.
The fact that a 7th level Bard has a longsword at all doesn't even matter. It's high time that people realize that split concept classes like the Bard need a huge upswing if they are to compete on multiple platforms at all. Bards start out behind Barbarians in melee. But as they go up in level, they also progress in melee combat advances slower. This means that the numbers they need to roll to accomplish things keep moving up the d20 as they go up in level until the Bard is best off just running away rather than attempting to swing a sword at all.
To really honestly be a Fighting/Singing/Spellcasting/Skillmonkey you'd have to really Mystic Theurge it from the get go. And I mean really do it. Properly. Like getting the same kind of bonuses to attack and damage that a Barbarian is getting at every level past first. They start out behind. The fact that leveling them causes them to fall more behind just makes Bards expire as a worthwhile character at mid level. Their melee abilities become worthless, then their spellcasting becomes worthless, then they are worthless. That's why people complain so much about Bards in campaigns with 7th level and higher characters and don't complain about them in games with 1st-4th level characters in them.
-Frank
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Wow, nice thread.
I definitely like some of the sorcerer ideas here: the extra spells known , casting from spellbooks, and replacements for familiars (be they bloodline powers or not) seem like a must for me. I also agree with an alternate metamagic cost, perhaps by burning additional spell slots to alter the effects (although in some cases the metamagic feats would have to be adjusted in power).
The sorcerer really needs a schtick though, and Wizards didn't help by taking every single stereotype of sorcerer and making a 20-level base class out of it (Warlock, Warmage, Beguiler, Binder etc.) I enjoy some of those classes, but they leave the sorcerer with very little to do. Perhaps the sorcerer could just be looking for magical power of any kind though, whether to assimilate it, destroy it, safeguard it or share it with the world. Giving sorcerers an ability set similar to divine feats or the Archmage, where they burn spellslots for more "raw", broader use effects than actual spells, might be the way to go. Powers could be to expend more charges from a magic item, apply metamagic effects to his spells, control magical effects in an area, teleport objects to random planes or make them explode, or so on. They might be more untargeted, more general purpose, generally less specific than spells to give a sorcerer a feel of working with raw magic. These might be divided into their own "Per day use" section, like Turn Undead or Bardic Music, but I like the idea of using spell slots. Give them a way to get more slots via feats or magic items if they don't have enough already. A sorcerer would only know a few of these tricks, but they would define his style, and how he was known amongst the people. "There goes Hanastan! I've heard he can transmute objects and make magic explode!" That sort of thing, big and flashy. These abilities could be granted by feats, or even by specific bloodlines.
Flavour-wise, this would give a sorcerer a good, if not original, reason for adventuring - get more power. Perhaps some ability to detect magic at will and drain magic from people, items or places to gain more spell slots is in order.
As an aside, I agree with the comments about bards needing a big fix. Bards are my favourite class thematically (who'd have guessed?), but as Frank said, they're completely useless past low levels unless you PrC, magic up, take splatbook feats, and generally take drastic measures to get to an equivalent state of progression in on area as a specialized class. So then you're a barbarian with a few less combat tricks and no rage, with a bunch of stilted useless spell effects tacked on for effect. The skill-monkey-jack-of-all-trades concept is ok, but it just doesn't balance mechanically. Drop that idea, and give bards their own field of specialty. It could even be group buffing (though I hope that's only a part of it if so), just so long as they're decent at it.
Just wild brainstorming here, so feel free to rip my ideas up and make them better.
TWB
Conceptually, I'd like Sorcerers to be the wild side of magic to counterpoint Wizards as the intellectual part of magic. Elemental, dangerous, and mysterious, a Sorcerer should be a person for whom magic is an instinctive drive. Thats why monsters are Sorcerers, and why Sorcerers should specialize in things like Ice Magic and Demon Arts while a Wizard specializes in Evocations or Abjurations.
On the counterpoint, Bards should be the creative side of magic. Cunning, wily, and unpredictable, you should never know what a Bard is going to do next. Thats why I think illusion, enchantment, and summons should be their bag.
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Conceptually, I'd like Sorcerers to be the wild side of magic to counterpoint Wizards as the intellectual part of magic. Elemental, dangerous, and mysterious, a Sorcerer should be a person for whom magic is an instinctive drive. Thats why monsters are Sorcerers, and why Sorcerers should specialize in things like Ice Magic and Demon Arts while a Wizard specializes in Evocations or Abjurations.
On the counterpoint, Bards should be the creative side of magic. Cunning, wily, and unpredictable, you should never know what a Bard is going to do next. Thats why I think illusion, enchantment, and summons should be their bag.
I agree. I really like the idea of "Summons". Make the bard a legend-keeper, perhaps a zorro-type educated fighter, perhaps a skald, perhaps some templar-poet, or a member of a militant historical society. Give him "legends" essentially full-round action spell effects, (though there could be some smaller action ones) with more focus on buffs, debuffs, and terrain control/utility than damage (but some of those too). Give him a set quota of these, leaning more towards knowing many legends but being only able to use each a few times unless he specifically prepares for it. The direct-damage and healing effects could be weaker than the wizard or cleric's, but the bard's versatility and his ability to affect large groups would make up for it. Give him a full BAB. That might seem a little overpowered at first, but without bonus feats, rage, smite evil, or sneak attack he still doesn't overshadow the fighter-classes. Perhaps reduce his number of skills a bit, if necessary for balance, but keep his skill list the same. Give him a few key spells like suggestion and glibness as spell-likes at mid-to-low levels. Give the high level ability to contact other planes to get the "appeal to outsiders" thing going and your done. Although Bardic Knowledge could be usable in combat the same way as the knowledge skill can. The Bard has his own schtick, can still sing, connive people, conjure illusions, heal and damage on the side, do some second-tier fighting, a bit of skill help, and even enlist sypathetic outsiders if you feel like it. The key would be in his selection of buffs for the day. Choosing these legends would decide what he would be good at for the day. Being good at a few things at a time is alot better than being useless at all of them.
This might seem overpowered at first, but with proper game balance at least most of it would probably work, and if the Alpha release's goal is to put core classes on a par with Book of Nine Swords and Tome of Magic (Binders basically get the whole "choose what you want to do today" thing anyway) then I don't think it's that bad.
On the Sorcerer side of things, I really like them being wild side of things, but the problem is separating the Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists might break too much backwards compatibility. That's why I suggested "Raw Powers". I'm trying to figure out a mechanic for Sorcerors to have the right flavour. It would probably be good if I could come up with actual examples of mechanics rather than running my mouth. I'll give it a go.
Conceptually, I'd like Sorcerers to be the wild side of magic to counterpoint Wizards as the intellectual part of magic. Elemental, dangerous, and mysterious, a Sorcerer should be a person for whom magic is an instinctive drive. Thats why monsters are Sorcerers, and why Sorcerers should specialize in things like Ice Magic and Demon Arts while a Wizard specializes in Evocations or Abjurations.
So.....what 4th Edition is doing with the Sorcerer?
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I really, really like the ideas K and Hastur came up with for the sorcerer. I think replacing the familar with something unique to the sorcerer is a very good idea. The idea to give the class meta-magic feats for free with the danger of suffering backlashs is great, but how can this be done without adding a description for potential backlashes to each spell description? Adding the wilder-mechanic would require something like spell points, but this wouldn't work when you want to keep it backward compatible.
In regards to the Material Components, we try to avoid them in our group. It just never made sense that someone whom learns to cast intuitively would follow the same "scientific" formulas as a wizard to achieve the same results.
We usually give them Eschew Materials for free at 1st level. And then for more expensive components and needed foci just let them get creative with ideas.
Eschew Materials as a free feat for sorcerers is a great idea, and one I've been kicking around for a long time.
So.....what 4th Edition is doing with the Sorcerer?
Based on available evidence, there is no 4e Sorcerer.
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On the issue of spell points: the devs have said that they are not doing it, so its off the table.
No spellcraft? How does a Sorcerer counterspell then? Don't tell me you've never gotten into a true spell duel...
I just failed my will save - people *actually* use the counterspell rules? I think that's come up once in 8 years of playing. Once.
Sorcerers, IMHO, shouldn't have spellcraft because the way they cast spells isn't like the way a wizard would cast a spell. Sorcerers could learn it, just like a rogue or fighter could (CC), but it wouldn't come naturally to them.
No spellcraft? How does a Sorcerer counterspell then? Don't tell me you've never gotten into a true spell duel...I just failed my will save - people *actually* use the counterspell rules? I think that's come up once in 8 years of playing. Once.
Sorcerers, IMHO, shouldn't have spellcraft because the way they cast spells isn't like the way a wizard would cast a spell. Sorcerers could learn it, just like a rogue or fighter could (CC), but it wouldn't come naturally to them.
In all my years of 3e DnD, I've never counterspelled, unless you count a "I ready an action to cast Magic Missile if he casts a spell."
I have to say the same. But there are a number of factors that lead into that. 1) I don't often play a spell caster. 2) Its a rare event that our groups come across a caster that is any kind of serious threat. 3) There some better ways to use spell slots then trying to counteract a casting of an enemy caster. For example, blindness/deafness with its fort save and ability to ruin most spells is extremely effective in neutering enemy spellcasters.
I've seen counterspelling come up twice. Once a player decided to counterspell and we looked up the rules and ran over it a couple of times. Then we were all like "Seriously? That's retarded!" and he readied a lightning bolt instead.
And the other time was in a whole counterspelling duel thing where two wizards agreed ahead of time to challenge each other to how many creatures they could conjure while taking turns and counterspelling each other. That's... a very contrived situation and I don't think it will ever happen again.
So no. Counterspelling is not something that Sorcerers ever do. Frankly, I find the rules kind of insulting.
-Frank