Note: The pages listed in the title only reference the fact that, for now, the Craft skill and Item Creation Feats are unchanged. I'd like to change them.
I have always felt that limiting magic item creation to spell casters was an inappropriate and unbalancing limitation. There is plenty of mythological basis for people who do not cast spells to manufacture magic items. For example, Regin, the smith in the saga of Sigurd the dragon slayer, makes for Sigurd a magic sword. The idea of a dwarven smith manufacturing wondrous items is almost iconic.
I also believe such a rule is unbalancing. It gives spellcasters the ability to obtain certain valuable items for 7/10ths the price (since 1 XP = 5 gp under most translations, the requirement of 50% of the base price plus 1/25th the price in XP, really translates to about a 30% discount). To make it possible for any character to manufacture magic items I propose the following rules changes.
1. Eliminate Item Creation Feats. The following feats are eliminated: Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms And Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll.
2. Item Creation Skills. The following new Craft skills are available: Craft (ringsmithing), Craft (rodsmithing), Craft (staffsmithing), Craft (wandsmithing), Craft (wondersmithing), which allow the craftsman to manufacture the indicated category of magic item. In addition, Craft (alchemy), Craft (armorsmithing), Craft (scribing) and Craft (weaponsmithing) allow characters to make Potions, Magic Armor, Scrolls and Magic Arms, respectively. Craft (alchemy) no longer requires the ability to cast arcane spells for proficiency. These skills are collectively known as “Item Creation Skills.” Except as provided below, they operate like any other Craft skill. There is no level requirement for obtaining proficiency in any of these skills.
3. Wizards. Note that wizards remain the best magic item crafters because Craft remains modified by one’s Intelligence bonus. Rather than the Scribe Scroll Item Creation Feat, wizards obtain a bonus proficiency in Craft (scribing) at first level. At fifth, tenth, fifteenth and twentieth level, a wizard may take either a metamagic feat, Spell Mastery, Skill Focus in any Item Creation Skill, or a bonus proficiency in any Item Creation Skill.
4. Skill DCs. Count the number of digits in the price of a magic item as set forth in gold pieces. The DC for crafting a magic item is 25 + 5/digit. I.e., a 50 gp potion requires a DC 25 crafting check. The DC will never exceed 55. It is assumed that the craftsman is always taking 20, particularly since there is no way to speed to slow down magic item crafting times. Here is a quick guide to Item Creation Skill DCs.
DC Item Price (gp)
25 1-9 (are there any magic items this cheap?!)
30 10-99
35 100-999
40 1,000-9,999
45 10,000-99,999
50 100,000-999,999
55 1,000,000+
Artifacts cannot be crafted. They are unique items whose manufacture cannot be replicated.
5. Components. Before enchanting the item, the crafter must have available three components: the masterwork component, the material component and the XP component.
Masterwork Component: Most magic items begin as nonmagical masterwork versions of the item. The crafter need not make this component, and can manufacture, purchase or otherwise obtain the nonmagic masterwork version of the item. One-shot items like potions, scrolls, elixirs and feather tokens do not require a masterwork component.
Material Component. To manufacture the item, the crafter must have available rare materials with a value equal to half the market price of the item (less the market price of any masterwork component). The DM decides how easy it is to obtain the material components for any given magic item. These items are expended during the crafting process.
XP Component. XP equal to 1/25th the market price of the item as expressed in gold pieces must be contributed. Often, the craftsman contributes the XP, but any volunteer can contribute their own. Often, adventurers commissioning items will volunteer their own XP (and obtain a price discount equal to 5 gp per XP contributed). The XP donor must be present for the entire crafting process. (There are rumors of necromancers who can forcibly take XP from people through a blood sacrifice.)
6. Skill Bonuses. Only individuals trained in the specific Item Creation Skill may use Aid Other, and Aid Other bonuses do not stack for purposes of Item Creation Skills. Masterwork artisan’s tools specific for that Craft grant a +2 enhancement bonus. Magical artisan’s tools may be manufactured to grant even high enhancement bonuses (up to +6).
7. Crafting Time. Crafting the item requires days equal to one-thousandth the price of the item expressed in gold pieces (rounded down, but never less than one full day). The craftsman must work no less and no more than eight uninterrupted hours per day and cannot work on more than one item at a time. The crafting days need not be consecutive, but the XP donor must be present for each day of crafting. This time cannot be reduced, even by increasing the Craft DC.
In this way, the Feats are still useful and there's still 95% backwards compatibility.
That's a good point. I will amend my proposal to reflect that. Edit: It won't let me edit my initial post. Stay tuned for the amendment...
Not bad this could use some work but not bad at all.
The proposal has gotten considerably shorter:
The following new Craft skills are available: Craft (ringsmithing), Craft (rodsmithing), Craft (staffsmithing), Craft (wandsmithing), Craft (wondersmithing), which allow the craftsman to manufacture the indicated category of magic item. In addition, Craft (alchemy), Craft (armorsmithing), Craft (scribing) and Craft (weaponsmithing) allow characters to make Potions, Magic Armor, Scrolls and Magic Arms, respectively. Craft (alchemy) no longer requires arcane spellcasting ability as a prerequisite. These skills are collectively known as “Item Creation Skills.” Except as provided below, they operate like any other Craft skill.
The Craft skill can only be used to create magic items if the craftsman has as many character levels as a spell caster would need to take the analogous feat. However, a craftsman with proficiency in the skill but insufficient levels may Aid Another of the appropriate level. Only one person may Aid Another in this fashion.
Crafting an item with this skill requires all of the components that someone using the analogous feat would require (including XP expenditure). This means the craftsman needs to contribute 50% of the item price in components, not the one-third usually required by the Craft skill.
Crafting an item with this skill takes just as long as crafting the item with Item Creation feats. This time cannot be elongated or reduced by altering the DC of the Craft check.
Calculate the DC of the Craft check as follows:
1. Count the number of digits in the price of a magic item as set forth in gold pieces.
2. The DC for crafting a magic item is 25 + 5/digit. Here is a quick guide to Item Creation Skill DCs:
DC Item Price (gp)
25 1-9 (assuming such items even exist!)
30 10-99
35 100-999
40 1,000-9,999
45 10,000-99,999
50 100,000+ (the most expensive non-artifact items cap out at about 500,000 gp)
The DC will never exceed 50. It is assumed that the craftsman is always taking 20, particularly since there is no way to speed up or slow down magic item crafting times. Artifacts cannot be crafted. They are unique items whose manufacture cannot be replicated.
I really like this system - with some caveats.
Firstly, Drop the Craft(wand). A wand is a stick. You'll use craft(woodworking) or craft(scrimshaw) to make it.
Secondly, I have a real problem with fighters making a wand of fireballs. So, make the art of creating wands, rods and staves the sole province of spellcasters.
Secondly, your math is a little wrong. I think what you meant to say is DC 20 + 5/digit.
I'd go a simpler route DC +10 per +1 bonus. Make it so that non-spellcasters can only create "bonus" items like swords +1, armor +2, or cloaks of charisma +4.
That allows for the historical "blacksmith creates a +1 warhammer" kind of a thing.
Furthermore, the DC of 30 to do that would only be even approachable by a 6th level craftsman.
A 1st level expert with maxed out ranks, and every conceivable bonus (MW tools, aid another from an apprentice, 18 int, 4 ranks and skill focus) can have a +15 to his skill and get to a DC 35 by taking 20. Only a 6th level craftsman (with +5 more ranks) can get to 30.
I like the direction this is going in. I especially like that the XP cost can be drawn from the party as a whole; I've always been annoyed by having party members leveling up at different times.
I also like the idea of exceptional craftsmen being able to create magic items without the aid of spells. I hope Paizo adopts a system like this.
Firstly, Drop the Craft(wand). A wand is a stick. You'll use craft(woodworking) or craft(scrimshaw) to make it.
"Scrimshaw" is a better name than "wandsmith". Also, I wouldn't mind allowing scrimshaws to make rods and staves as well. However, I have no problem with non-spellcasters making wands, just as I have no problem with non-spellcasters making potions.
The point is that the person's training allows them to manipulate the magical components that go into the item. Oddly, however, the smith isn't able to use his own creation. I'd allow people to use their Craft ability as it it were a Use Magic Item skill specific to that item, requiring a DC equal to the DC needed to craft the item.
Secondly, your math is a little wrong. I think what you meant to say is DC 20 + 5/digit.
Oops!
On further reflection, I now agree with die kluge that some items should be limited to spell casters. These spells would be spell completion and spell trigger items, which are basically wands, staves and scrolls. The reason is these items allow someone to complete the casting of a spell on their own spell list.
I'll work on my proposal and come out with version 3 in this thread soon!
Proposal 1: Item Creation Skills.
Certain Craft skills (called “Item Creation Skills”) can be used to manufacture magic items without the need for the craftsman to have an Item Creation Feat. To utilize an Item Creation Skill to create a magic item, the craftsman’s character level must be the minimum level that a spell caster needs to learn the Item Creation Feat for that category of magic item. A craftsman with proficiency in the skill but insufficient levels may Aid Another of the appropriate level. Only one person may Aid Another in this fashion for any given magic item. In addition, if the magic item description states that the creator needs to be a certain class, race, level, alignment or possess a specific skill, then the craftsman must also meet those requirements. Items that use spell completion or spell trigger activation (specifically scrolls, staves and wands) cannot be created using Item Creation Skills. Artifacts cannot be manufactured with Item Creation Skills. Cursed items can also be made with the appropriate Item Creation Skill (as determined by the DM)
The Item Creation Skills (and the items they can create) are:
Craft (alchemy): Potions
Craft (armorsmith): Magic Armor
Craft (jewelling): Rings
Craft (scrimshawing): Rods
Craft (tinkering): Wondrous items
Craft (weaponsmith): Magic Arms
Crafting an item with this skill requires all of the components that someone using the analogous feat would require (including XP expenditure). This means the craftsman needs to contribute 50% of the item price in components, not the one-third usually required by the Craft skill. Crafting an item with this skill takes just as long as crafting the item with Item Creation feats. This time cannot be elongated or reduced by altering the DC of the Craft check.
To calculate the DC of the Craft check, count the number of digits in the price of a magic item as set forth in gold pieces and add 20:
DC Item Price (gp)
25 1-9 (assuming such items even exist!)
30 10-99
35 100-999
40 1,000-9,999
45 10,000-99,999
50 100,000+ (the most expensive non-artifact items cap out at about 500,000 gp)
The DC will never exceed 50. It is assumed that the craftsman is always taking 20 because the Crafting time cannot be increased or decreased by changing the Craft DC.
Craft (alchemy) no longer requires the ability to cast arcane magic.
The XP required to manufacture a magic item need not be contributed by the creator of the item. Rather, a voluntary donation of XP may be made by a third party (often the person who commissioned the item’s construction). The donor must be present throughout the item creation process or the creation fails and the magical components of the item are forever lost.
Note that an Elite Expert (15 in Intelligence -- +2), with Skill Focus (+3) and masterwork artisan’s tools (+2) and an apprentice (+2) will have the following Craft check at each level:
3-5: DC 30 (no item can be made before 3rd -- potions)
6-10: DC 35
11-14: DC 40
15-19: DC 45
20: DC 50
However, at 5th level, an Expert with Craft (tinkering) could start making headbands of intellect and magical artisan’s tools to improve his crafts
One area where this system doesn't quite work, however, is in creating new magic items. It's a fine replacement for the existing list of magic items - but if the player wanted to create something brand new, there's no formula by which the player can use to determine the cost.
One area where this system doesn't quite work, however, is in creating new magic items. It's a fine replacement for the existing list of magic items - but if the player wanted to create something brand new, there's no formula by which the player can use to determine the cost.
What's wrong with using the cost tables in the SRD? The cost would still be based on the spell level of the effect with which the item is imbued and the minimum level a caster needs to be to invoke the spell. Am I missing something?
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I'd suggest that Item Creation Feats are made class abilities (at different levels) for each "spellcasting" class. That way your Bard might get to create wands (should you choose to invest the resources and XP) at, say, level 8 while the wizards and clerics would create them at level 6 (for example). And the paladin would only get to create magical arms and armor (e.g. at level 5) while the wizards should learn to create rings and staffs sooner than swords. Any thoughts?
1) The whole point of my proposal is to allow item creation by craftsmen of any class. This eliminates the bottleneck of fighters begging party wizards for discount items.
2) Your proposal doesn't seem very customizable. What if I want a wandsmithing Sorcerer, but not one who brews potions? Right now, I make Feat selections. With yours I get Brew Potion whether I want it or not.
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1) The whole point of my proposal is to allow item creation by craftsmen of any class. This eliminates the bottleneck of fighters begging party wizards for discount items.
2) Your proposal doesn't seem very customizable. What if I want a wandsmithing Sorcerer, but not one who brews potions? Right now, I make Feat selections. With yours I get Brew Potion whether I want it or not.
Hmmm... I guess you're right. I'd still like to keep them as feats, though, since magic *is* needed in their creation and I'd have to see all characters of all the classes being able to make them via skills. I have let my PCs (to some extent) buy magic items they've wanted, but IMO the point is that they should seek (and find) them.
I like the concept. A lot.
However, I'd change a couple of things:
1) Only classes who can use the item can craft the item.
2) taking Volo's Guide to All things Magical as inspiration: let specific "ingredients" (gems, precious metals etc) have an impact on the craft DC. For example: if the paladin wants to craft a holy sword, he'd have to use blessed gems sacred to the deity in the hilt, during the smithing process for the masterwork weapon, the weapon has to be tempered in holy water, and while forging same blade a piece of a relic has to be hammered into the folded metal. If all the components fall into place the crafting of such a weapon should have a lowered DC.
3) UMD can be used to "cheat" the magic when a rogue creates his wand of fireballs. He'd still need ingredients etc.
I'd ha[t]e to see all characters of all the classes being able to make them via skills.
Under my proposal (Version III), the Feats aren't going anywhere. Skills are simply an additional way to make items (using the magic inherent in the rare and mysterious "components")
---board ate my post---
*repeat*
I like the concept. A lot.
However, I'd change a couple of things:
1) Only classes who can use the item can craft the item.
2) taking Volo's Guide to All things Magical as inspiration: let specific "ingredients" (gems, precious metals etc) have an impact on the craft DC. For example: if the paladin wants to craft a holy sword, he'd have to use blessed gems sacred to the deity in the hilt, during the smithing process for the masterwork weapon, the weapon has to be tempered in holy water, and while forging same blade a piece of a relic has to be hammered into the folded metal. If all the components fall into place the crafting of such a weapon should have a lowered DC.
3) UMD can be used to "cheat" the magic when a rogue creates his wand of fireballs. He'd still need ingredients etc.
I like the concept. A lot.
Thanks!
1) Only classes who can use the item can craft the item.
Well, I eliminated Spell Trigger and Spell Completion items from Skill-based Crafting, so what's left? Metamagic rods? Why not let Scrimshaws make rods they cannot use? And mages can make magic exotic weapons they cannot use, so I don't see the big deal.
let specific "ingredients" (gems, precious metals etc) have an impact on the craft DC.
I think circumstance bonuses like that should be left to individual DMs.
3) UMD can be used to "cheat" the magic when a rogue creates his wand of fireballs. He'd still need ingredients etc.
I love it!!
This is a simply excellent idea. Most PC's never bother with more than one or two craft skills total anyway, so the backwards compatibility isn't as large of an issue as it COULD be. The DC's may need some tinkering in the end, as munchkins can easily trick out a couple of skills and turn it into an exploit, but with a few very minor reservations, W00T!!!
Proposal 1: Item Creation Skills.
Certain Craft skills (called “Item Creation Skills”) can be used to manufacture magic items without the need for the craftsman to have an Item Creation Feat. (This proposal does not replace the Item Creation feats; rather it provides a second method of making magic items.) To craft a magic item, the craftsman must meet the following criteria:
- The craftsman must have the appropriate Craft for that item (see below). Cursed items can also be made with the appropriate Item Creation Skill (as determined by the DM). Artifacts cannot be manufactured with Item Creation Skills.
- The craftsman’s character level must be the minimum level that a spellcaster needs to learn the Item Creation Feat for that category of magic item.
- If the magic item description states that the creator needs to be a certain class, race, level, alignment or possess a specific skill, then the craftsman must also meet those requirements. (But see Use Magic Device, below.)
- If the item uses spell completion or spell trigger activation (specifically scrolls, staves and wands), the craftsman must be able to cast the spell to be triggered or completed, and must cast such a spell (through spellcasting ability or an item using the spell completion or spell trigger activation) every day the item is being crafted. (But see Use Magic Device, below.)
- The craftsman must possess all of the components that someone using the analogous Item Creation feat would require This means the craftsman needs to contribute 50% of the item price in components, not the one-third usually required by the Craft skill.
- The craftsman must donate the same XP that someone with the Item Creation feat would need to donate. (But see XP Donation, below.)
- The craftsman must spend as much time making the item as someone using the appropriate Item Creation Feat. This time cannot be elongated or reduced by altering the DC of the Craft check.
Aid Other. A craftsman with proficiency in the skill but insufficient levels to manufacture the item alone may Aid Another of the appropriate level. Only one person may Aid Another in this fashion for any given magic item.
The Skills. The Item Creation Skills and the items they create are:
- Craft (alchemy): Potions
- Craft (armorsmith): Magic Armor
- Craft (jewelling): Rings
- Craft (scribing): Scrolls
- Craft (scrimshawing): Rods, Staves and Wands
- Craft (tinkering): Wondrous items
- Craft (weaponsmith): Magic Arms
Craft DC. To calculate the DC of the Craft check, count the number of digits in the price of a magic item as set forth in gold pieces and add 20, as follows:
DC Item Price (gp)
25 1-9 (assuming such items even exist!)
30 10-99
35 100-999
40 1,000-9,999
45 10,000-99,999
50 100,000+ (the most expensive non-artifact items cap out at about 500,000 gp)
The DC will never exceed 50. It is assumed that the craftsman is always taking 20 because the Crafting time cannot be increased or decreased by changing the Craft DC.
Proposal 2: Craft (alchemy).
Craft (alchemy) no longer requires the ability to cast arcane magic.
Proposal 3: XP Donation.
The XP required to manufacture a magic item need not be contributed by the creator of the item. Rather, a voluntary donation of XP may be made by a third party (often the person who commissioned the item’s construction). The donor must be present throughout the item creation process or the creation fails and the magical components of the item are forever lost.
Proposal 4: Use Magic Device
A person proficient in an Item Creation Skill and Use Magic Device may mimic a prerequisite the craftsman does not otherwise meet with a successful Use Magic Device check of the following DC:
Ability + 15: Emulate an ability score
15: Emulate a skill proficiency (only usable for item creation, and the craftsman cannot emulate the Item Creation skill)
20: Emulate a class
25: Emulate a race
30: Emulate an alignment
The craftsman cannot emulate a higher level than the craftsman currently possesses. The Use Magic Device skill check must be made successfully on each day the item is being crafted. The craftsman cannot take 10 or 20 on the skill check. If the craftsman emulates a spellcasting class for the purpose of crafting an item using the spell activation or spell triggering method, the craftsman must still invoke the spell to be triggered or completed by the item once for each day the item is crafted. This may require the craftsman to Use Magic Device to activate scrolls or wands with that spell within.
Pardon me...but I seem to have *bumped* into this really cool thread again lol.
FYI, Jason Bulmahn has said he is eliminating XP costs for magic items. Not only does this eliminate the need for my third proposal, it makes implementing the Item Creation Skills a lot easier.
FYI, Jason Bulmahn has said he is eliminating XP costs for magic items. Not only does this eliminate the need for my third proposal, it makes implementing the Item Creation Skills a lot easier.
Provided they take this idea under consideration, which I hope they do!!!
Thanks, Archgamer! Me too!
I dislike this greatly. Firstly, you can't do it without the Craft skills anyway (to produce the base item). Secondly, commoners should not make magic items.
1. Folks with the feat but no Craft can always buy the base item. it's the cheapest component in the item.
2. Potions, scrolls, rings, wands, staves, rods, and most wondrous items have no base items. Really, the base item only applies to magic arms, armor and some of the wondrous items.3. Why shouldn't mid-level Commoners be making magic items? I mean, according to the demographic charts, very few Commoners even get to third level -- the minimum level needed to make items, and many of them either won't have the right Craft, won't have the Intelligence needed, can't afford the masterwork tools needed to Craft at 3rd level. And at best, these guys are just brewing potions. It's not until 5th level, at least, that a commoner has any hope of making even minor magic items.
More likely, Experts and Adepts will be making magic items. Which explains why there are so many potions running around the world.
I like the idea of Craft skills playing a role in crafting items - it's something I've been moving toward in my house rules.
I am also thinking of letting the craft check speed up magic item creation - the main complaint I get from players is that magic item creation takes too much time, not that it's too gold- or XP-consuming. Letting the other members of the party participate in magic item creation might mitigate that, since half of the party won't be idle while the other half is crafting. In theory.
Another reason to roll a check somewhere would be to check for cursed items - I have a 'difficulty' I check against, and minor failures mean teething pains for new magic items, while a major failure means a cursed item (one of which the party is obligated to track down).
I generally like this concept, although I have one player in my live group that makes the counter suggestion that ONLY Wizards should be able to craft items. ;-)
I can see expert weapon and armor smiths making magical arms, most weapon enchantment do not have a perquisite spell. I do have some thoughts on item creation control.
1) As suggested above, Item Creation feats should allow only a Caster to create items with spells that are on his or her spell list, even if they don't know the spell. Just to make that clear.
2) Quick and dirty 'rare' component pricing guideline of non-casters making items. Solidify these 'rare' components in actual game terms. The easiest way is to have 'components' that contain a particular spell. Using the Services Spellcasting prices a Rare Root containing Cure Light Wounds would be valued at 10 gold. A Non-caster crafter making a Potion of Cure Light Wounds would need this component. This 'cost' would be in addition to the normal cost of creating the item.
While this would increase the cost of creating items for non-casters it has other benefits. It helps explain where these commoners are getting the magic to make the items. It clearly makes Spellcasters the best magic item creators (price wise), where before they were the only magic item makers. It also gives a DM an on the fly tool when working with random treasure awards, and keep the amount of raw coinage down. It is also non-specific and more flexible then actually listing 'the central eye of a beholder' as need to make something with dispel magic as a component. Use the lowest spell level listed in a spells entry for cost.
Spell Laced Rare Components:
Spell Level; Cost; Weight
0; 5 gp; 1/10 lb.
1; 10 gp; 1/5 lb.
2; 60 gp; 1 lb.
3; 150 gp; 3 lb.
4; 280 gp; 6 lb.
5; 450 gp; 9 lb.
6; 660 gp; 13 lb.
7; 910 gp; 18 lb.
8; 1200 gp; 24 lb.
9; 1530 gp; 30 lb.
For Spell Trigger/Completion the crafter must still cast the actual spell somehow (UMD) in addition to having the Rare component. As for XP costs, we will need to see what is suggested for removing.