By that reasoning, fighters should be able to cast healing spells in case the cleric is gone.
What?
Are you mad?
At best, by that reasoning there should be other forms of healing.
Good thing there already are. Potions that even the Fighter can use.
Wands that the Rogue and/or Bard can use.
Healing that the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard can use.
Please try to keep up. It might help your argument.
My argument is that items may affect the class, but that you can argue unlimited resources. This is untrue in game. Mostly, characters won't have all the items they could have access to. This brings the whole argument into absurdity.
A +3 shield does not cost much.
The Gate spell cost 1000xp, not 200. And tongues is a 4th level spell for a cleric.
So it is. However, that 1,000xp and 4th level spell slot are all that is required to win any level-appropriate encounter.
There are no perfect quotes for this, but it is implied from the text in the item description on 130, in the casting descriptions on page 140, and in the components section on 174 all in the PHB. Also, check out the image on 163. Any component must be part of the spell being cast, meaning in hand. Also look on 305 in the glossary at Cast a Spell.
You can see the rules for sundering it (regardless of it being carried) on page 158 under sundering a carried or worn object.
That still isn't a definitive ruling. Perhaps it is answered in the FAQ.
A focus is an object from which the spell originates. Check out the definition of Focus. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Focus
A denotation does not a D&D term make.
What?
Are you mad?
At best, by that reasoning there should be other forms of healing.
Good thing there already are. Potions that even the Fighter can use.
Wands that the Rogue and/or Bard can use.
Healing that the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard can use.Please try to keep up. It might help your argument.
You said that the cleric ought to be able to tank in case the main tank is gone. My rebuttal was that the tank ought to be able to heal in case the healer is gone. Your analogy is failtacular.
Additionally, by your reasoning, the wizard too should be able to pull out the CODzilla guns in case the tank's not there. And so should the sorcerer. And so should the bard and the rogue and the monk and all the other classes.
You said that the cleric ought to be able to tank in case the main tank is gone. My rebuttal was that the tank ought to be able to heal in case the healer is gone. Your analogy is failtacular.
No. Just no.
I said I would complain if Clerics lost Divine Power and heavy armor.
I then explained why I would complain.
I said nothing about if they should lose them or not.
There was no analogy.
Like I said, try and keep up.
So it is. However, that 1,000xp and 4th level spell slot are all that is required to win any level-appropriate encounter.
Don't forget the 9th-levels lot.
You could also get a scroll of it and cast the spell from that.
And 1000 is no small thing. It's a sixth of what a 20th-level party gets from a CR 20 critter.
Anyway, all this isn't really a cleric problem, it's a gate spell problem. A lot of problems are problems about details.
No. Just no.
I said I would complain if Clerics lost Divine Power and heavy armor.
I then explained why I would complain.
I said nothing about if they should lose them or not.
There was no analogy.
Like I said, try and keep up.
You tried to correct my analogy by making an analogy.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy
A cleric from my understanding/interpretation of it's iconic idea of a front line healer needs to be able to come up to the front lines and heal, cutting heavy armor would limit this.
Actually, removing Heavy Armor would generally *improve* a cleric's ability to maneuver on the front line, as any Medium-Sized creature immediately gains +10 ft movement effectively.
You seem to be under a very large misconception there, because medium armor slows people just as much as heavy armor does. Hide, Chainmail, Breastplate, and Scale mail all reduce speed. Only light armor does not hinder speed.
You seem to be under a very large misconception there, because medium armor slows people just as much as heavy armor does. Hide, Chainmail, Breastplate, and Scale mail all reduce speed. Only light armor does not hinder speed.
True that. But mithril practically litters the ground in D&D canon, so if you aren't buying (my players made their own) mithril armors by level 5-6, you're just crippling yourself.
Your better off just picking yourself up +2 armour for the price at that level. And mithral is only useful for the dexterious. I usually go with adamantine, Dex isn't important for the cleric. And need to reduce those hits that bypass my AC is important.
And I really don't see much Mithral just laying about.
[url=smurf][/url]
You tried to correct my analogy by making an analogy.
Not in the slightest.
I corrected your error, and tried to make your analogy a little closer to acceptable.
You tried to correct my analogy by making an analogy.Not in the slightest.
I corrected your error, and tried to make your analogy a little closer to acceptable.
Ho-ho, what terrible wit you have! No, your reasoning is incorrect.
You said:
But only because I have been in the situation of playing the Cleric with the tanks in the group unavailable for some reason, and the Rogue/Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer(s) of the group looking to me to fill the role.
I would prefer the ability to summon CoDzilla when needed even if it can be abused elsewhere.
Your reasoning that CODzilla should exists is as follows:
1. A group needs a tank.
2. Sometimes a group does not have a melee tank available.
3. Therefore, someone ought to be able to fill the role of tank even if it involves being vastly overpowered.
4. Thus, CODzilla should exist.
Here's my argument:
1. A group needs a healer.
2. Sometimes a group does not have a healer available.
3. Therefore, someone ought to be able to fill the role of healer even if it involves being vastly overpowered (or retarded).
4. Wands, healing potions, and bards don't possess the raw healing power needed to sustain a party in a fight.
5. Thus, fighters should be able to cast healing spells.
Either way, it's a dumb argument.
Your reasoning that CODzilla should exists is as follows:
Again, no. You still haven't followed the point of my post.
I'll try and spell it out for you:
My thoughts on why CoDzilla should remain, is that people have become accustomed to it.
There was no reasoning behind it, and as I have tried to explain to you there is no argument. Well, besides your feeble attempts at starting them.
Despite common opinion, it is possible to express alternate points of view on the internet without trying to cause. join, and especially - win, a debate.
Here's my argument:
it's a dumb argument.
I suggest that you work on your writing skills, then.
But only because I have been in the situation of playing the Cleric with the tanks in the group unavailable for some reason, and the Rogue/Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer(s) of the group looking to me to fill the role.
'Cause, you know, "because" implies a cause-and-effect relationship: as in, there was the effect of you wanting CODzilla to remain due to the cause of party members needing a tank.
And I really don't see much Mithral just laying about.
That's because all the clerics use if for their armours.
I suggest that you work on your writing skills, then.
But only because I have been in the situation of playing the Cleric with the tanks in the group unavailable for some reason, and the Rogue/Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer(s) of the group looking to me to fill the role.
And I'd suggest brushing up on your comprehension.
'Cause, you know, "But only because" states rather strongly that this is an outside case.
And I'd suggest brushing up on your comprehension.
'Cause, you know, "But only because" states rather strongly that this is an outside case.
Don't blame the reader for misinterpreting the words that you so clumsily loosed upon the page.
Don't blame the reader for misinterpreting the words that you so clumsily loosed upon the page.And I'd suggest brushing up on your comprehension.
'Cause, you know, "But only because" states rather strongly that this is an outside case.
If the reader misinterperted then the blame is on the reader since misinterpeting means interperting falsely.
Thought I'ld point that out since I don't get why you guys are arguing syntax, wasting points on a topic that doesn't seem to fit with this thread.
If one persons sumarizes your thought in a manner that indicates that either you didn't write down your thoughts as clearly as you would have liked or that the reader misconstrued your thoughts, clarify your statement. No need to bicker back and forth.
If the reader misinterperted then the blame is on the reader since misinterpeting means interperting falsely.
I was going to explain how writing poorly could cause misinterpretation, thus putting the blame on the writer, but then I decided not to.
Here's to abolishing CODzilla.
Oh, be quiet, all of you. This is the Alpha Release boards, not the Grammar for Wrangler course.
Either start debating the relative merits of various RPG systems, or rent a boxing ring and solve this like men. :P
Oh, be quiet, all of you. This is the Alpha Release boards, not the Grammar for Wrangler course.
Either start debating the relative merits of various RPG systems, or rent a boxing ring and solve this like men. :P
Here. Here. Let's just call this discussion done. Clerics are canon and no matter the various opinions on them, they are here to stay in a version at least close to the current one.
So in the end it doesn't matter.
Let's give our attention to those that are actually doing some playtesting and have actual RESULTS to discuss based on the new changes.
Oh, be quiet, all of you. This is the Alpha Release boards, not the Grammar for Wrangler course.
Either start debating the relative merits of various RPG systems, or rent a boxing ring and solve this like men. :P
Here. Here. Let's just call this discussion done. Clerics are canon and no matter the various opinions on them, they are here to stay in a version at least close to the current one.
So in the end it doesn't matter.
Let's give our attention to those that are actually doing some playtesting and have actual RESULTS to discuss based on the new changes.
The RESULTS have been recorded for years now: CODzilla exists, and it is broken. Paizo has said that they wish to fix brokenation. Therefore, they should fix CODzilla.
Much of the 'broken' stuff evidence I've seen about the cleric has more to do with splattbooks then the class itself.
Much of the 'broken' stuff evidence I've seen about the cleric has more to do with splattbooks then the class itself.
Excellent. Now, the Core cleric can still cast righteous might and divine power, so it's still broken. (And there's the whole gate issue, but that's another can of worms.)
I think that anything which makes it harder for Clerics to raise their caster level above their character level might help a lot to balance the game. I'm actually way more bothered by the potential abuses of Holy Word than by anything which can be accomplished with Divine Power + Quickened Divine Favor and maybe Righteous Might. Certainly a buffed cleric can do a lot of melee damage, but so can a Rogue with two kukris.
That said, Righteous Might got a pretty drastic errata a while back. Maybe Divine Power should be changed too if people feel it is causing big problems in their game. Removing the BAB bonus would take a little steam out of Clericzilla.
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That said, Righteous Might got a pretty drastic errata a while back. Maybe Divine Power should be changed too if people feel it is causing big problems in their game. Removing the BAB bonus would take a little steam out of Clericzilla.
Comparing the ease for a Cleric to get Fighter BAB to a Wizard getting Fighter BAB, there's clearly a need for some sort of balancing there.
Just as a Wizard's Knock spell is considered for tweaking so that it doesn't stomp all over the Rogues usefulness, a Cleric spell that gives the Cleric a Fighters BAB should also be tuned down so as not to intrude on the Fighters niche. (Even if it's just tuned down to work like Tenser's Transformation and not allow the buffed Cleric to cast spells while he's in mecha-godzilla mode.)
I remember a nice little mechanic from AD&D2:
Clerics had to pick a Deity and that Deity would limit the choice of armor and weapons to reflect their domains.
If the Cleric didn't follow this rule it would be like Druids not following the "no metal" rule: no spells till you attone.
As for Druids, I'd just take their companion away. Let them charm whatever animal they want, but I'd say that no faithfull Druid would actually "force" a poor creature of nature to follow him all the time. Short help to protect their territory, ok, but no lifetime "charm/enslavement". It doesn't fit the druidic beliefs imho.