RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One thing that has always bothered me about playing wizards is the cost in both time and gold that it takes them to fill out their spellbooks. In effect, this means that wizards have several penalties built in to their class, which aren't obvious from reading their class description.
By having to pay 100 gp per spell level for a new spell scribed into their book (not to mention the scroll to scribe it from or paying an NPC wizard to use their book to copy from), it effectively means that a wizard will have a smaller amount of magic items and gear than any other class, since they would have spent a fair portion of their treasure adding spells to their spell book.
By having to spend 1 day per spell scribed, the wizard will have fewer days in-between adventuring to scribe scrolls or craft magic items. In many cases in my experience, my wizard PCs don't even have time to scribe all of the new spells into their books, much less make permanent items. Despite having the bonus feats that can be used for craft magic item feats, this actually puts a wizard at a disadvantage compared to other spellcasters for making items - while the wizard is spending a week adding 7 spells to their book, the cleric, druid, or sorcerer can craft 7,000 gp worth of magic items.
I'm hoping that Pathfinder will address this issue, since many campaigns, both published and home made don't have unlimited time between adventures.
Personally, I'd recommend changing it so that adding a spell to your spellbook takes 1 hour/spell level, and a flat 100 gp, regardless of spell level.
I would like to see the cost go away or something more like 10GP/page.
Are you saying that it costs 100 g/pg for spells gained at each level, and that puts the Wizard behind?
Quoting the SRD:
"Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level."
So the only time the 100g/page thing is an issue is when the wizard copies from a scroll or another spellbook.
It seems that the DC for the spellcraft check and the cost of the scroll or use of the other spellbook should be the limiting factor on a wizard doing this, not extra gold for actually getting the spell.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Are you saying that it costs 100 g/pg for spells gained at each level, and that puts the Wizard behind?
Quoting the SRD:
"Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level."
So the only time the 100g/page thing is an issue is when the wizard copies from a scroll or another spellbook.
It seems that the DC for the spellcraft check and the cost of the scroll or use of the other spellbook should be the limiting factor on a wizard doing this, not extra gold for actually getting the spell.
Yes, I am referring to spells gained from sources other than gaining a new level. If you want to have more than 4 spells per spell level (other than 0-1st level spells), then you need to copy them from somewhere. In most games, you often find scrolls and captured spellbooks as treasure, so the cost of a source to copy from is often free. In addition, 1st level scrolls are 25gp, and 2nd level scrolls are 150gp, both are fairly cheap once you hit even 5th level, and both are cheaper than the cost to actually copy into your spell book. I've never had a big problem with the spellcraft DCs.
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I agree that the cost/time should be reduced to encourage wizards to diversify their spell selection. Now, another limiting factor will always be the 100 pages per spellbook so purchasing/storing multiple spellbooks does factor in later on as well.
- 10 gold/page
- 1 page + 1 page/2 levels beyond 1st (ie, 1 page for levels 1-2, 2 pages for levels 3-4, 3 pages for levels 5-6, etc.)
- 1 hour/spell level
Now, I would like to see some of the material that was first presented in the AD&D book, "Player's Option: Spells and Magic" concerning a wizard's library and components for magic item creation. I do realize that may be a bit too indepth for the average player, but I think it does warrant some consideration for depth and realism.
Alfred
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I would also love to see the cost for writing spells in spellbooks reduced. All to often I hear that the cost is because the wizard doesn't have to buy armor/weapons/etc. That has never worked for me because they usually have to buy/create staves, wands, potions, bracers, rings, cloaks, etc.
The time problem has never been an issue for us. We usually play in campaigns that have plenty of downtime (the DM usually requires training time and such to advance levels).
Personally, I think the 10 gp/page proposed by others would be about right. That would allow wizards to have their travelling spellbook(s) plus keep copies of their spells in their library/lab/etc (and maybe another copy somewhere else for redundancy). Being an IT nerd, I look at the wizards spells and spellbooks from a "critial data" standpoint and have always wanted to play wizard characters that way, but could never afford the outrageous prices.
If you sell the spellbook (see PHB pg. 179, Selling a Spellbook) after copying the spells you want and don't know, you usually end up with a net profit.
Basically, this is one of the trade-offs of the class. You can learn ANY AND ALL of the arcane spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard lists (apart from prohibited schools if a specialist). However, you only get a limited number "for free."
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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If you sell the spellbook (see PHB pg. 179, Selling a Spellbook) after copying the spells you want and don't know, you usually end up with a net profit.
This works fine in terms of gold (though doesn't address the time for campaigns on a clock), when you find a spellbook that's from a caster of your level or lower. The problem is that, if you find a spellbook from a caster who can cast higher level spells than you, you're going to want to keep it until you can master those spells and copy them - which could be anywhere from 1-3 levels away. In the meantime, you're short on gold to copy what you can now, and by the time you sell the book, the money isn't as meaningful, since by then your wealth has risen dramatically by gaining a few levels.
Wizards can copy any spell for free by casting secret page several times, which is a 3rd level spell in the core rules and the SRD. Wizards below 5th level can have the Apprentice Feat (DMG2), which allows them to copy spells for free from their Mentor (who is a 5th level or higher Wizard, so presumably he is just casting secret page over and over again).
Frankly having an "ink cost" for people to pay to copy spells if they aren't smart enough to learn secret page or know someone who does is inane. The costs are completely bypassable so characters shouldn't be expected to not bypass them under any circumstances.
The basic costs to scribe a spell into a spell book should be the normal costs for paper and ink, because if we bother setting a higher price than that people will just not pay anything.
-Frank
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Frank,
I'm not sure how you're getting this:
Wizards can copy any spell for free by casting secret page several times, which is a 3rd level spell in the core rules and the SRD.
from this:
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.
A comprehend languages spell alone cannot reveal a secret page’s contents. You are able to reveal the original contents by speaking a special word. You can then peruse the actual page, and return it to its secret page form at will. You can also remove the spell by double repetition of the special word. A detect magic spell reveals dim magic on the page in question but does not reveal its true contents. True seeing reveals the presence of the hidden material but does not reveal the contents unless cast in combination with comprehend languages. A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell.
All I can see is that it would allow a wizard to "re-use" a spellbook (which costs 15 gp), not that the cost to scribe (100 gp/level) is gone.
Did I miss a Sage article or something?
FP
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.
A comprehend languages spell alone cannot reveal a secret page’s contents. You are able to reveal the original contents by speaking a special word. You can then peruse the actual page, and return it to its secret page form at will. You can also remove the spell by double repetition of the special word. A detect magic spell reveals dim magic on the page in question but does not reveal its true contents. True seeing reveals the presence of the hidden material but does not reveal the contents unless cast in combination with comprehend languages. A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell.
You can then read and prepare a spell from the "fake" page because it shows the contents of an actual spell. Since you don't pay exorbitant (or any) prices for the "fake" page, you can just make the "real" pages be a bunch of stick figures and then have the "fake" pages show actual spells and then you have a spell book that has actual spells in it without spending a silver piece.
-Frank
I never really liked the GM costs for copying spells but any GM allowing the use of Secret page to bypass this rule should be whipped in public.
But backt to Cost point: The question is, why do wizard have not to pay the same price for their 2 bonus spells each level?
They DO have to write them down, right?
So if the GM cost is about special inks and stuff... well?
You know what I mean.
My suggestion: Make it more usual for wizards to research and invent spells and charge the prices there!
One other thing: I never really liked the spell memorize system. Using the cantrips/orisons is a good start but it's not that big of an improvement.
How about letting wizards cast spells directly out of their spellbook in addition to the memorized ones.
I was thinking about taking a full-round action of concentration per (spell level + 1) and then cast it in the following round.
(So a first level spell could be fired every three rounds)
yeah I say drop the cost or make it very low. and as for secret page it just makes an extra page still have to use ink and such for it . think of it as a two sided door you can write on both sides and swing it from side a to side b but still had to buy the paint to write on it.
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Frank,
Okay I can see where you're coming from then. What you're saying would be in keeping with the Boccob's Blessed Book's no cost to scribe ability. Personally, I think this seems like an unintentional effect. It doesn’t make sense (admittedly to me) that one of the biggest restrictions on wizards can be circumvented by a 3rd level spell. Essentially, the BBB is now useless unless you enjoy spending 12.5k on a reinforced version of a 15 gp book
However, while a literal reading of the spell description support’s your position, I noticed one little problem with a PC wizard using this to beat the system. A secret page spell, unlike a 100 gp/level spell, can be dispelled. Entire spell library gone with the casting of a single spell. That in itself seems like a check on a “rich by comparison” wizard…
Anyway, I am in full agreement that the process a wizard uses to copy spells should be revisited by Paizo. The time requirement seems a bit much (same amount of time for 1st level as a 9th level?) and the cost is still a problem. Some of this is addressed by allowing PC’s to “master” the spellbooks of others, but it can still be an issue. That said, once JB releases their info on equipment/magic items, I’d love it if they’d visit this area.
FP
However, while a literal reading of the spell description support’s your position
That's the important point here, because we're talking about writing the rules. Unless and until Jason writes up a change for Pathfinder specifically the literal wording of the SRD holds.
Essentially, the BBB is now useless unless you enjoy spending 12.5k on a reinforced version of a 15 gp book
The original purpose of the book was that it was transportable. The fact that people drool all over it because as written it costs less to purchase a Boccob's Book and then fill it with spells than it does to purchase inks and write out spells by hand is an artifact of poor game design.
I noticed one little problem with a PC wizard using this to beat the system. A secret page spell, unlike a 100 gp/level spell, can be dispelled. Entire spell library gone with the casting of a single spell.
It's actually a single spell that they have to make a dispel check for for each page, so normally you won't lose that much. Not to mention that you can keep backups elsewhere. And the really important thing here is that people can always cast scorching ray on your spell book regardless of whether it was made out of pure magic or Saffron and Cocaine (or whatever it is that you use that costs two pounds of actual gold).
And that is one of the reasons that I fully support the inclusion of cheap or free spell book backups. Having a 13th level Wizard turned into a 13th level Commoner who can prepare and cast read magic from memory because a creature so low level that the Wizard in question doesn't even gain XP for defeating it turned aside one round and sundered his spell book is totally not OK.
-Frank
I use lesser 100 page variants of the (Boccob's) Blessed Book which all wizards receive when they graduate from their apprenticship.
First off, I want a Saffron and Cocaine Spellbook.
Second: Our party's wizard belongs to a Guild and usually has his several spellbooks at the Guild for safekeeping and only carries the two spell books with the spells he commonly uses.
Third: we've killed enough wizards in our days and the wizard has acquired enough spellbooks that after copying the spells he wants, the sale of these spellbooks has financed all his spellbooks with money leftover.
Fourth: If your worried that you'll become a pauper after all your spellbooks are destroyed...be a sorceror or warmage or any other arcanist without a spellbook.
In 20 years i've never played with a group that used the wizard spellbook rules. I'll continue to ignore them whatever pathfinder has for them.
In 20 years i've never played with a group that used the wizard spellbook rules. I'll continue to ignore them whatever pathfinder has for them.
does that mean your party never finds npc spellbooks to augment the wizard's spell knowledge?
if not, then researching is the only way to add new spells to your repertoire (other than the two as you advance per level... adding cone of cold from captured spellbook: 500gp.... adding cold of cold by research: 9 (min caster level) x 50 x 2 = 900gp. Now granted, 1st thru 3rd level spells will be cheaper than the 100gp per spell level but starting at 4th it getts progressively more expensive... or do you also ignore the cost for spell research too.