Clerics...

[Gorbacz]

OK, so finally perhaps we have an opportunity to kill a certain archetype that annoys me to no end:

The Plate Wearing Mace Swinging Priest o' Doom !

Really, why do all Clerics have access to full array of armor ? For me, it blurs the line between Paladin and Cleric. Both end up as Full Plate +3 combat machines. And between the spells and feats, current 3.5 Clergy ends up usually chewing the fighters for supper. OK, we have a strong buff of Fighters in Pathfinder Alpha, but the Clerics

I know the "plate and mace" image is in our heads since the Red Box, but it never really caught with me. Clerics are supposed to be deity's font in the team... Perhaps, Clerics with War domain could potentially be inclined to don the metal and swing the steel, but as for Clerics of more pacifistic deities...

The way I run 3.5 currently, I kicked the standard Cleric out of the class lineup, giving the players a choice between Cloistered Cleric variant and the Favored Soul (the later being one of better post-PHB class ideas out there).

So my suggestion is, tie the armor/weapon choice to Domains, and perhaps the BAB too (med BAB for combative domains, poor for the non-combat ones). Let all Clerics keep the medium armor (OK, they're supposed to be adventuring type, so some protection is warranted).

[Brennin]

As I recall, priests in the warcraft rpg get d8, medium BAB, and light armor. That might be a good compromise.

[Anry]

I'm not really for this. Remember additional limitation for certain dieties are based on dogma, which if grossly disregarded by a cleric, one may find himself without the support of his higher power.

But I honestly beleive it up to the DM to institute dogma into their game. So if you've got a pacifist god you can make lack of armor or even weapons apart of their dogma for that diety.

I have no problem with the cleric having the potential to wield said heavy mace nor bear the burden of full-plate. And to break it based on domains is an unneccessary complication to the system.

Honestly the choice of weaponry and armor per religion is compariable to the same reason why an archery based fighter isn't going to be galavanting about in fullplate.

[Jank Falcon]

The trend that I'm noticing is that the original domain powers, which typically were used only once per day or a few rounds per day, have been booted for slightly weaker powers that are more "spread out" across the spectrum of the adventuring day. I'm in favor of this as my group has a bit of a problem with "15 minutes of butt kickin'" then rest for 24 hours.

I do desire to see one minor detail altered. The War Domains "Battle Smite" ability seems a tad under powered compared to the rest. I think perhaps a bonus equal to caster level, as opposed to half caster level, wouldn't be beyond the pale.

Thanks for taking the time to read our feedback.

Jank

[Studpuffin]

I think the trend with the armor and weapons extends from the fact that to truly shine out as a member of the party a cleric needs several things: high strength to defend his charges, con to stand his ground, int to have your concentration, spellcraft, heal, and knowledge (religion), wisdom obviously for spells, and charisma to turn undead.

So on a point buy if you want a good all around cleric you are left with a very large glaring dumpstat that is likely to remain an 8 (though between 5 other skills a cleric isn't likely to have a generally high stat). Your dexterity will be that 8. So all of a sudden a cleric cannot used ranged weapons very effectively nor are they as defended because their AC is diminished. Their spells are designed to protect, but are often dumped at the way side to heal.

Once their spells are exhausted, they're little more than a second-hand fighter.

Let them keep their fullplate and mace, its all they have for themselves.

[Phalazar]

Jank Falcon wrote:

I do desire to see one minor detail altered. The War Domains "Battle Smite" ability seems a tad under powered compared to the rest. I think perhaps a bonus equal to caster level, as opposed to half caster level, wouldn't be beyond the pale. QUOTE]

I agree with this. If you compare it to most of the other domains or even the mage school powers it is not to par and would be better served removing the 1/2CL for CL.

I must say though I really like this idea for domains. It gives something extra to the priests that I always felt was needed.

[Takeda]

Well ... if the DM feels ambitious enough, each Cleric could be custom-built to match the dogma of the Diety they follow. But then you'd be entering the quagmire of 2.5 D&D ... where you could trade off Heavy Armour for better saves, or better BAB but less spells, etc.

I could be wrong but I think a lot of what we view as the 'Cleric' in RPG's was really the Fighting Bishop/Cardinal of the middle ages. They if they chose (if they were wealthy enough in spite of a presumed vow of poverty) could have a full suit of Maximillian plate, a holy water sprinkler-styled mace and shield. This weapon was brutally effective ... and honestly an exception to what most of the examples of a fighting religious person ... except for many of of the fighting monastic orders ... Templars, Hospitalers, etc.

But look at say the high priests of the Aztecs, the Sumerians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Wise Men of the Prairie Peoples of North America. Only the Europeans would have even been covered in steel from top to bottom ... the Aztecs would likely have had a hardwood club with Obsidian flakes wedged into it; the Sumerians may have had boiled leather armour and a khopesh or something similar; the Greeks with a bronze breastplate, greaves and bracers, a spear, club or sword; the Romans a bronze breastplate or something similar to that worn by a Centurion with weapons to match; the Wise Men of the Prairie ... buckskins, maybe a bone vest and a spear, bow or club.

So our view of all Clerics wearing plate, wielding maces and such is based on the culture they were from. D&D is unflinchingly euro-centric for the most part.

Summary: Clerics 'Can' wear Heavy Armour, they 'Can' wield a shield, they 'Should' have always been proficient in their Diety's chosen weapon, they 'Should wield, wear and be proficient' in armour, shields and weapons that fit their Diety/culture/setting. If your setting is Euro-Centric so should your expectations of gear ... if your game is not feel free to limit what gear is available.

[Studpuffin]

Takeda wrote:

So our view of all Clerics wearing plate, wielding maces and such is based on the culture they were from. D&D is unflinchingly euro-centric for the most part.

Summary: Clerics 'Can' wear Heavy Armour, they 'Can' wield a shield, they 'Should' have always been proficient in their Diety's chosen weapon, they 'Should wield, wear and be proficient' in armour, shields and weapons that fit their Diety/culture/setting. If your setting is Euro-Centric so should your expectations of gear ... if your game is not feel free to limit what gear is available.

Hear! Hear!