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It's been said that the new Pathfinder RPG classes are way more powerful than the standard 3.5 classes, so I decided to take a closer look by examining to similarly built characters. I used the stats for Ezren from CotCT:EoA.
Ezren, 3.5 version
Male Human wizard 1
NG Medium Humaniod
HD: 1d4+4 (8 hp)(+3 from toad)
Init: -1
Speed: 30ft
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AC: 9 (-1 DEX) Touch 9, Flat-footed 9
Saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +4
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Cane: +0 (1d6) bludgeoning
Light Crossbow: -1 (1d8/19-20) piercing
BAB: +0
Grapple: +0
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Spells
(CL 1st, ranged touch -1)
-1st (1/day + 1 bonus)
Mage Armor
Sleep (DC 14)
-0th (3/day)
Daze (DC 13)
Detect Magic
Light
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Skills
Appraise +5 (CC)
Concentration +5
Know (arcana) +7
Know (geography) +7
Know (history) +7
Spellcraft +7
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Feats
Combat Casting
Great Fortitude
Scribe Scroll
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Abilities
STR 11 (+0)
DEX 9 (-1)
CON 12 (+1)
INT 16 (+3)
WIS 15 (+2)
CHA 9 (-1)
And now the new version. I used the racial bonus hp at first level.
Ezren, Pathfinder version
Male Human wizard 1
NG Medium Humaniod
HD: 1d6+11 (17 hp)(+3 from toad)(+6 racial)(+1 favored class)
Init: -1
Speed: 30ft
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AC: 9 (-1 DEX) Touch 9, Flat-footed 9
Saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +4
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Cane: +0 (1d6) bludgeoning
Light Crossbow: -1 (1d8/19-20) piercing
BAB: +0
CMB: +0
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Spells
(CL 1st, ranged touch -1)
-1st (1/day + 1 bonus)
Mage Armor
Sleep (DC 15)
-0th
Daze (DC 14)
Detect Magic
Light
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School Powers
1st: Hand of the Apprentice
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Skills
Appraise +8
Know (arcana) +8
Know (geography) +8
Know (history) +8
Know (planes) +8
Linguistics +8
Spellcraft +8
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Feats
Combat Casting
Great Fortitude
Scribe Scroll
Still Spell
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Abilities
STR 11 (+0)
DEX 9 (-1)
CON 12 (+1)
INT 18 (+4)
WIS 15 (+2)
CHA 9 (-1)
The biggest change is hp. The new Ezren has more than double the hp of the old Ezren.
Appraise changes to a class skill, so the modifier goes up.
Concentration has been folded into Spellcraft. With that and the +2 to INT Ezren gets two more skill choices.
The DCs of Ezren's spells increase by 1 from the boosted INT.
The cantrips at will give Ezren a few more options at low levels, but I don't think they will get much use beyond that.
The bonus metamagic feat from the universal school is pretty useless at 1st level but will come in handy latter.
The Hand of the Apprentice allows Ezren to make slightly more effective attacks at range.
All in all, I don't think it is that much of a difference. However as a DM, if I wanted to run a 3.5 module, I would need to do a bit of NPC conversion or increase the EL bit. It's not really a big deal though, but for people who have limited time to prepare for games, it could become a hassle. I think there should be a couple of pages in the final book (or maybe as a free PDF) that deal with conversion and have simple templates that a DM could apply to 3.5 stat blocks on the fly.
I do think that the new Pathfinder classes stand up to more recent WOTC (Tome of Magic and Book of Nine Swords) better than the originals.
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It's been said that the new Pathfinder RPG classes are way more powerful than the standard 3.5 classes, so I decided to take a closer look by examining to similarly built characters. I used the stats for Ezren from CotCT:EoA.
Hey, good idea. I've been meaning to do something like this myself, for Valeros, Kyra and Merisel as well...
And now the new version. I used the racial bonus hp at first level.
I'm not sure that was wise, since we haven't settled on such a thing yet - it's likely to confuse the comparison more than it needs to be.
The biggest change is hp. The new Ezren has more than double the hp of the old Ezren.
Appraise changes to a class skill, so the modifier goes up.
Concentration has been folded into Spellcraft. With that and the +2 to INT Ezren gets two more skill choices.
The DCs of Ezren's spells increase by 1 from the boosted INT.
The cantrips at will give Ezren a few more options at low levels, but I don't think they will get much use beyond that.
The bonus metamagic feat from the universal school is pretty useless at 1st level but will come in handy latter.
The Hand of the Apprentice allows Ezren to make slightly more effective attacks at range.
All in all, I don't think it is that much of a difference. However as a DM, if I wanted to run a 3.5 module, I would need to do a bit of NPC conversion or increase the EL bit. It's not really a big deal though, but for people who have limited time to prepare for games, it could become a hassle. I think there should be a couple of pages in the final book (or maybe as a free PDF) that deal with conversion and have simple templates that a DM could apply to 3.5 stat blocks on the fly.
I do think that the new Pathfinder classes stand up to more recent WOTC (Tome of Magic and Book of Nine Swords) better than the originals.
One of the things I think should be noted about this is that the wizard is absolutely useless at 1st level (and, in fact, Ezren especially so, given his statline) - one of the design goals pretty explicitly seems to be to change that, so that wizards can contribute more and longer at low levels. I suspect, though cannot prove, that the differences will come out somewhat in the wash as you go higher up...
Also, as a universalist, Ezren gets more out of the conversion than most other wizards do. 3.5 wizards are clearly balanced on the assumption that they will specialize, in order to get the extra spell slot - but being a generalist, Ezren is now getting something, where before he was getting nothing.
Finally, I have a very strong urge to toss out his toad (which we have never seen) in exchange for bonding his very distinctive cane to him instead...
you should have used max pluse con mod thats more inline with 3.5
that would have made 11 hp not that big a change at all.
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Thanks for jumping on this!
It brings up a good point. I know that being effective in combat is important but I would like to not stray too far from our roleplaying roots. I would like to see the School Specialization powers have a bit more focus (why does a Universalist get to cast Fireball?) and more non-combat options.
My group met today to talk about our next Eberron campaign... I made a case for the increased HP at 1st level ala Saga, 4e, Pathfinder. When the GM was unsure about what all the options were, I had him pull up the PDF and read through the sidebar. Presto, we are going to use our Con *score* as bonus HP at 1st level! I really think this will reduce some swinginess, especially for us casters.
I was going to ask to playtest the Pathfinder Wizard, but since we decided to stick 3.5/3.P as a group, they "opened" Psionics up for us to use...which I've been waiting for! My Kalashtar Kineticist is gonna rock when we start that new campaign up.
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Interesting comparison Vissigoth. Anybody want to do the same thing for the other classes. We had some internal documents just like this, but they were for a version of the rules from about a month ago.
Thanks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I have conversion versions of Merisiel, Kyra and Valeros for levels 1, 5, and 10 - I'm going to do a level 15 version too, but I haven't finished quite yet.
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Here are the two versions at 20th level. Note the HUGE hp difference and the spells.
3.5: 196 spell levels
Pathfinder: 254 spell levels (from spells and spell-likes) + 3 school powers that don't have an equivalent spell. Several of these spells have an XP cost, but since the wizard casts them as spell-likes, they have no XP cost.
Also look at the difference in the amount of skills each character has.
3.5 Ezren @ 20
Male Human wizard 20
NG Medium Humaniod
HD: 20d4+20+3 (75 hp)(+3 from toad)
Init: -1
Speed: 30ft
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AC: 10 Touch 10, Flat-footed 10
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +14
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Cane: +10 (1d6) bludgeoning
Light Crossbow: +10 (1d8/19-20) piercing
BAB: +10/+5
Grapple: +10
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Spells
(CL 20th, ranged touch +10)
-9th (4/day)
-8th (4/day)
-7th (4/day)
-6th (4/day)
-5th (4/day + 1 bonus)
-4th (4/day + 1 bonus)
-3rd (4/day + 1 bonus)
-2nd (4/day + 1 bonus)
-1st (4/day + 2 bonus)
-0th (4/day)
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Skills
Appraise +16 (CC)
Concentration +24
Know (arcana) +28
Know (geography) +28
Know (history) +28
Spellcraft +28
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Feats
8 feats
Summon Familar
Scribe Scroll
4 bonus feats
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Abilities
STR 11 (+0)
DEX 10 (+0)
CON 12 (+1)
INT 20 (+5)
WIS 15 (+2)
CHA 9 (-1)
Pathfinder Ezren @ 20
Male Human wizard 1
NG Medium Humaniod
HD: 20d6+20+6+20 (119 hp)(+6 racial)(+20 favored class)
Init: -1
Speed: 30ft
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AC: 10 Touch 10, Flat-footed 10
Saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +4
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Cane: +10 (1d6) bludgeoning
Light Crossbow: +10 (1d8/19-20) piercing
BAB: +10/+5
CMB: +10
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Spells
(CL 20th, ranged touch +10)
-9th (4/day)
-8th (4/day)
-7th (4/day)
-6th (4/day + 1 bonus)
-5th (4/day + 1 bonus)
-4th (4/day + 1 bonus)
-3rd (4/day + 1 bonus)
-2nd (4/day + 2 bonus)
-1st (1/day + 2 bonus)
-0th (4 at will)
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School Powers
1st: Hand of the Apprentice
2nd: Shield 10/day
4th: Levitate 1/day
6th: Fireball 1/day
8th: Metamagic Mastery
10th: Teleport 1/day
12th: Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
14th: Limited Wish 1/day
16th: Prismatic Wall 1/day
18th: Wish 1/day
20th: Mastery of All Schools
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Skills
Appraise +29
Craft (alchemy) +29
Diplomacy (cc) +10
Fly +23
Know (arcana) +29
Know (dungeoneering) +29
Know (engineering) +29
Know (geography) +29
Know (history) +29
Know (local) +29
Know (nature) +29
Know (nobility) +29
Know (planes) +29
Know (religion) +29
Linguistics +29
Perception (cc) +13
Spellcraft +29
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Feats
11 Feats
Arcane Bond
Scribe Scroll
4 Bonus Feats
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Abilities
STR 11 (+0)
DEX 10 (+0)
CON 12 (+1)
INT 22 (+6)
WIS 15 (+2)
CHA 9 (-1)
I'M good with that looks fine to me.