RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So long Paizo. All I ever really bought here were game aids anyway, and Ill just buy the Planet Story novels used on Amazon. Why play and invest in an inferior system?
[Snark]I agree, that's why I'm avoiding 4.x[/snark]
More seriously, in attacking (for I see this as an attack) Pathfinder, are you not doing the same thing that those of us who dislike 4.x are accused of doing?
I had no interest in 4.x because I'm getting old, as is the rest of my group. We're teaching kids 3.x because that's what we play. I've more 3.x books than I know what to do with.
So, you may ask, why am I psyched about Pathfinder RPG? Because this is going to be our game. An open playtest, a responsive design team, a living setting under Nick Louge, and a backwards compatibility with the 3.x engine.
Knowing I can run events for kids and give the one voted as the best gamer one book (Pathfinder RPG) give the runner up a module, and give everyone a D&D mini. I do see this as the potential for something great, and I get to be a part of it, in my own little way.
I hope you reconsider your statement above. Necromancer/Paizo will be supporting 4.x, but they're hedging their bets.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Knowing I can run events for kids and give the one voted as the best gamer one book (Pathfinder RPG) give the runner up a module, and give everyone a D&D mini. I do see this as the potential for something great, and I get to be a part of it, in my own little way.
What's this? Oh, I'll do that too!
Au contraire!
A glorious day!
YES! HUZZAH! HUZZAH! HUZZAH!
:-)
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Knowing I can run events for kids and give the one voted as the best gamer one book (Pathfinder RPG) give the runner up a module, and give everyone a D&D mini. I do see this as the potential for something great, and I get to be a part of it, in my own little way.What's this? Oh, I'll do that too!
That does sound like a neat idea.
The only question is where and when to do it. :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Knowing I can run events for kids and give the one voted as the best gamer one book (Pathfinder RPG) give the runner up a module, and give everyone a D&D mini. I do see this as the potential for something great, and I get to be a part of it, in my own little way.What's this? Oh, I'll do that too!
When one of my local stores did a 'free comic book day' I offered to run some D&D for the kids. I ran Hollow's Last Hope and gave the kid I felt did best a set of dice and her character. Since the owner of said shop will give me a good discount of stuff I order there, I can order the RPG and a 'friendly' module (Into the haunted forest comes to mind) and give it to the best players. That way they can have good memories associated with the big shiny book :-)
Amusingly, the 8-12 year olds did better than the adults I ran it for later that night.
Paizo shows the finger to WotC
Sometimes it takes a mirror...
If this is how the Paizo forums looked to the Pro-4th Edition people, I can finally understand why they wouldn't feel comfortable here. I don't agree with it... But I would understand it.
It is good to see that bitterness exists on all sides of "the line" though. ;-)
I think it's human nature to think "we" are better than "them", or that our actions are more justified. But in reality we're all part of a human spectrum, and it's no surprise that there's similar behaviour on all sides of an issue. At least not to me. :p
/world-weary
-Amber S.
Au contraire!
A glorious day!
Besides, Paizo will be supporting 4E through Necromancer Games.
Everyone wins!*
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, I think people are missing this fact. Paizo will support 4E through Necromancer Games. And they will encourage converting their APs to 4E.
Their Pathfinder products however will be in the new Pathfinder RPG system so that they can control how their world develops.
I think this is a very good idea.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Amusingly, the 8-12 year olds did better than the adults I ran it for later that night.
Oh, no kidding. Some years ago, I moderated an after-school role-playing club for a local middle school. The level of sophistication there was amazing.
When they needed another GM, I ran some of them through "The Traveller Adventure", and their role-playing, problem-solving and teamwork beat, hands down, any adult parties I've seen before or since.
About two-thirds of them were girls, by the way.
What a sad day
I respectfully disagree with you. I think this is great for those who enjoy 3.5 and for those who wish to see the OGL remain alive and well.
Well done Paizo!
I think it's human nature to think "we" are better than "them", or that our actions are more justified.
[Threadjack] The Middle East reminds me of this every day. [/Threadjack]
I was actually quite surprised by this decision. I'm curious to hear the run down of tweaks that are being made to 3.5. Is this going to be the fabled 3.75 that I've heard so much about?
Though I would have preferred a move to 4th, I respect the decision, and plan to continue all of my subscriptions.
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My wife just looked at me like I was crazy when I described the situation and Paizo's decision....and how happy I was that they made *this* call. Too funny.The exact same thing happened to me. She thought I had gotten a raise or something.
My wife said I'm going to need a raise if I keep buying at the rate I am...
Greetings,
I'm not too thrilled about Pathfinder staying 3.5 (more 3.75 IMO). I've been playing D&D for over 20 years now, going from the red Basic D&D Box to AD&D, then AD&D 2nd Edition and D&D 3E and 3.5E. With each new edition, I was able to appreciate the game even more.
I browsed the Pathfinder Alpha testing. The information inside was interesting, some changes made sense, and in general, I thought that it brought more good things and bad things. Then I browsed the Races and Classes from Wizards. I realized that both systems made similar changes. Regrouping skills, simplifying combat maneuvers, boosting the core races and so on. So I sincerely believe that updating Pathfinder material to 4E will be a piece of cake.
I had a Dragon subscription for a couple of years. Before that, I bought it at the local store. I read articles, tried new rules, new versions of rules, new feats, new spells and so on. Every time, I grafted material to my games. So when Paizo announced that they would no longer print Dragon, I chose to give Pathfinder a try. What a mistake. I was hooked. So much that I'm continuing my subscription to Pathfinder (a special thanks to Corey for helping me with that issue) and I'm seriously considering making Gollarion my new Campaign World.
And that's no small feat. I'm a fan of Dragonlance since I started playing D&D (so that's 20 years). Yet, each time they updated the rules, I wasn't happy with them. Sure, AD&D 2nd Edition was better than the others, but somehow, Dragonlance didn't feel like it used to. I always had to work on the core mechanics to make if feel right. The same thing happened with 3E. Yet, I kept playing in that world. Only when the Age of Mortal started that I lost interest in Dragonlance. What made me stay 20 years with Krynn? The background, the stories, the places, the inhabitants. For the last years, I lost that thrill with Krynn. But Pathfinder changed that.
So what I'm trying to say is that no matter the game mechanics used to make Gollarion evolve, I will play in this new world. I can always adapt rules and spells as needed. I was already planning to convert Rise of the Runelords to 4E anyway, and I've been converting material for 3.5 for a long time. Because seriously, it's a story telling game, and Paizo is telling me excellent stories since they sent me Burnt Offerings. So here's what I want to tell Paizo : no matter what rules you use, I'll make my players discover your world.
Thank you for bringing back the magic.
- Zorg
I'm not too thrilled about Pathfinder staying 3.5 (more 3.75 IMO).
I agree. Those who had hoped Paizo would go with 4th edition can rightfully feel disappointed, but I would point out that Paizo, despite their initial claims, is not sticking with 3.5 either. Instead they are doing their own system based 3.5, but is not 3.5. This is disappointed to many 3.5 players/DMs like myself, just as much as it is to people wanting 4th edition. I am not going to play any of the other variant systems based on the d20/3rd edition, and so I probably will not be using Paizo's products in the future as well if they are not easily usable* with 3.5.
*By easily usable, I mean I don't have to look in any other book than my 3.5 books.
I have to say "Thank You" to Paizo.
First off, this is really my two cents worth, and only my opinion, along with my wife’s opinion.
I’ve been playing D&D since it came out in the basic edition. I played many long years as a kid growing up with 1st edition and eventually 2nd edition. I continued through college and adult life into 3rd edition and eventually 3.5 edition. That should reflect I’m open to changes and enhancements with the rules.
I traveled, along with my wife, and other friends to Washington DC to the D&D Experience 2008. I was under the assumption I would bite the bullet and eventually transition my campaigns to 4e. We all had signed up for Living Forgotten Realms #1 and Living Forgotten Realms #2 to experience the new rules. Of course we also played in our regular Living Greyhawk and Xen’drik Expedition slots.
Needless to say, we were ALL DISAPPOINTED with the play tests. We even gave the Dungeon Delves a few tries under the 4e, but were still disappointed. To us, the 4e rules don’t “feel” like D&D anymore. It really reflected another d20 system altogether, such as a GURPS, but dummied down for kids.
Throughout the years with the changes in the editions, the core of D&D was always there until now. This isn’t D&D!
I really didn’t see why such a drastic revamp was needed to the core system. The old system allowed great flexibility, and could be complicated at times, but I’ve brought in many new people through the years and within weeks the rules were understood. The new rules really remind me of a talent tree system for the races and classes. If I wanted that, World of Warcraft is out there for me to play. The great thing about D&D was that players could take the core class and race, and then individualize their characters, knowing they had a specific role within the party. My players big goals were solving the conflict, but “what magic items did we find?” In 4e, it seems magic items are a side effect and you can make your character better using the talent trees. Which, everyone who has chosen that race and class can choose the same abilities. Where is the individuality of I’m the only elf wizard with this magic item?
The bloodied concept seems to slow down the play time. Our tables would grind to a halt trying to see if a monster was bloodied. I don’t think anyone took the time to see how to reflect that with miniatures. Having a player role attacks (since now there are all kinds) for area effects to each monster baffles me. I asked about this with the wizard folks, and they said the player could do it quicker because he knows the attack. But wait, so then the player needs to role each one, and then ask the DM “did this type of attack hit?” … “Oh, and does this monster have damage reduction for the attack type?” And then … Okay, how is this quicker?
Not everything was bad. I did like the focus on giving the races more spell-like abilities. That was missing in the older editions. The healing surges were an interesting concept. But why not modify and enhance the old core rules, instead of build the game from the ground up again? To me, I’m at a loss. This will be the first time in a long time our group hasn’t attended Gen Con. We’ll all be heading to Origins to finish out the 3.5 edition campaigns.
We did try and take an objective view to the changes and hold a little survey at the restaurant above the gaming floor between events during the weekend. A majority of the people we discussed 4e with were pushed in too distinct directions. Those that have played D&D using 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, were not impressed with the changes. Of course, there were some who were, but not many. And those that were impressed because they were very new to 3.5 edition, or this was there first time playing.
So, with that said, I’ll be sticking with 3.5 edition for a long time. There is tons of material content available, and with Paizo, Lone Wolf, and many other 3rd party publishers staying with 3.5, those that stay with the older edition will be fine.
I'm going to be very interested to see how WotC reacts to this. My guess is that they'll ignore it until it becomes evident that Paizo is seriously crimping their plans by giving half the fans an outlet to stay with 3.5.
I salute your bravery Paizo. Moreover, I'll support you fully with my wallet.
I highly doubt Paizo competes with WotC's sales my friend.
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I was real excited by the news at first then reading more today decided that it is not really any news at all. A great marketing plan though.
Paizo is throwing its support behind 3.x
But wait what about the launch of the 4e Adventure Path (yes Adventure Path) called Iron Tower, being published through Paizo for Necromancer games.
So, one hand is supporting 4e and the other is supporting 3.x
They are playing both sides of the fence. Now THAT is a great idea! And one I support whole heartedly. While neither company alone could fully support both lines, together they can. Together, they can still provide the best quality products to both sides of the 4e divide.
Paizo and Necromancer... everybody wins!
Sweet baby, Jesus!! THANK YOU, PAIZO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pre-orders already placed!!!!
Paizo shows the finger to WotCSometimes it takes a mirror...
If this is how the Paizo forums looked to the Pro-4th Edition people, I can finally understand why they wouldn't feel comfortable here. I don't agree with it... But I would understand it.
Yea, seriously. I'm glad I stopped going there over a year ago. Hell, now I never have to pay attenction to them again.
Paizo boards, the positive alternative.
It is good to see that bitterness exists on all sides of "the line" though. ;-)
Definitely. Definitely.
Yeah, I think people are missing this fact. Paizo will support 4E through Necromancer Games.
I agree. Watch for major personalities, people like Richard Prett or Erik Mona, to contribute sections of Necromancers 4E AP. Necromancer, in conjunction with Paizo have already hinted that there are going to be some big names that we recognize in the AP.
Just out of curiosity, is this you who started this thread over at Gleemax?
Paizo shows the finger to WotC ... just curious, seems like same sig, 180 degree stance change. Am I missing something?
I agree with the post in that thread that said:
"Paizo are striking out on the path they believe is best, and good luck to them. So are WotC. I'm going to buy 4e because I'd rather have it than a tweaked 3.5."
So long Paizo. All I ever really bought here were game aids anyway, and Ill just buy the Planet Story novels used on Amazon. Why play and invest in an inferior system?
If 3.0/3.5 was such an intolerably bad inferior system, how did you cope?
No, really- considering the undue eagerness exhibited by some folks to stick the knives in the previous incarnation of their hobby, I seriously have to wonder what Wizards puts in the Kool-Aid. There are posts on that Gleemax forum that seriously cross a line, wishing unemployment for Paizo staff and the failure for the company. Sure, things got heated here, but I don't think anyone was wishing Wizards would shut up shop and disappear. All we're short are book burnings and a two minute Hate.I honestly thought once Paizo had nailed their colors to the mast we'd get past this kind of sniping. Can't we all agree to disagree and move on?
If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
LOL
Like WotC produced "quality" products. They tested the garbage you bought, like, never. (And by the way, thats their words, not mine. Listen to their podcasts for the proof).
I don't want to take part in any anti-Paizo vs. anti-4E. Can't people just let other people play the games they enjoy? Does every person who's playstyle doesn't match your own insult you (the general, all-inclusive "you")?
For anyone drive-by-posting from elsewhere, this community is not defined by being "anti-4E", it is defined by intelligent people passionate about games and their loyalty to a company that never fails to please.
I am rather partial to the Cloete Riesling '96 or a Boschendal Lanoy.
However, I hope you join the rest of us on the dark side by the middle of 2009, or I fear that you'll be selling your otherwise excellent books to an ever-dwindling set of die-hard 3.5ers. And I don't want that for my sake, or for Paizo's.
Or an ever increasing number of Pathfincer RPG players.
It's been two day since the announcement of the Pathfinder RPG and Pazio's staff has yet to post anything on those boards as to what their/Necromancer's plan are for those Pazio's customers that may intend to switch to 4th edition.
It reinforces my initial impression that 4th edition is unlikely to get much love from Pazio, which personally I find sad because I value very highly Pazio's products.
Also, may I point out that WoTC has been heavily criticized for its lack of communication with its fans. On this front, Pazio does not seem do be doing much better, at least when it comes to those fans (traitors?) that may consider switching.
Ok. My rant is over and it's time for me to be more constructive. So Pazio, what are your plans for 4th edition? Could you talk more about Necromancer's rumored adventure path?
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It's been two day since the announcement of the Pathfinder RPG and Pazio's staff has yet to post anything on those boards as to what their/Necromancer's plan are for those Pazio's customers that may intend to switch to 4th edition.
It reinforces my initial impression that 4th edition is unlikely to get much love from Pazio, which personally I find sad because I value very highly Pazio's products.
Also, may I point out that WoTC has been heavily criticized for its lack of communication with its fans. On this front, Pazio does not seem do be doing much better, at least when it comes to those fans (traitors?) that may consider switching.
Ok. My rant is over and it's time for me to be more constructive. So Pazio, what are your plans for 4th edition? Could you talk more about Necromancer's rumored adventure path?
Paizo still has not seen the GSL.
It seems to me that they can't make solid 4e plans until they know what they are allowed to do.
Ok. My rant is over and it's time for me to be more constructive. So Pazio, what are your plans for 4th edition? Could you talk more about Necromancer's rumored adventure path?
Not without the GSL, they can't.
I'm not one of those who like dozens of RPG systems. I don't have the time to learn more systems, or to play those other systems. More to the point, I'm not willing to pay for more systems.
Paizo will still attract some of my spare cash for their Gamemastery products, which I think are really great. I'll also likely purchase a few more of the Planet Stories books. My purchases of Pathfinder modules likely will stop once they switch over to their new system.
I wish Paizo luck with this effort, even if I cannot and will not support it financially. I say that with some trepidation, because I'm not sure this is really a good idea for them. I think the energy they will be expending in developing their own RPG would be better spent on focusing on their core business.
Chief Technical Officer
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Ok. My rant is over and it's time for me to be more constructive. So Pazio, what are your plans for 4th edition? Could you talk more about Necromancer's rumored adventure path?Not without the GSL, they can't.
You are correct, sir. Wizards has yet to reveal to us what we can and can't do, so we can't tell you what we will do. All we can do is repeat what you already know: Necromancer is excited about the possibility of creating 4th Edition products, starting with—if possible—a new Tome of Horrors.
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I don't want to take part in any anti-Paizo vs. anti-4E. Can't people just let other people play the games they enjoy? Does every person who's playstyle doesn't match your own insult you (the general, all-inclusive "you")?
For anyone drive-by-posting from elsewhere, this community is not defined by being "anti-4E", it is defined by intelligent people passionate about games and their loyalty to a company that never fails to please.
word
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It's been two day since the announcement of the Pathfinder RPG and Pazio's staff has yet to post anything on those boards as to what their/Necromancer's plan are for those Pazio's customers that may intend to switch to 4th edition.
Ok. My rant is over and it's time for me to be more constructive. So Pazio, what are your plans for 4th edition? Could you talk more about Necromancer's rumored adventure path?
Then perhaps you should whine over at the Wotc boards about them getting off their rears and get the GSL and playtest rules out faster so maybe they can make a plan.
Because its hard to plan without them....
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It's an Alpha play test. That means there will be changes AND you can participate in them. Better than the closed door development that WotC has followed if you ask me. Just my 2c.
Thats the part I like the best. The fans will get to play and test out the rules and help make it better. Worst case i won't like the game but I will know long in advance exactly what the game is like. Unlike 4e which they are keeping under wraps and only letting out snips here and there that they think will drum up sales.
The respect Paizo is showing with the open playtest is enough for me to take part in it. I think that was a very smart move on their part, good customer service brings brand loyality and Paizo is doing that well.
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Chris,What I find sad is that 4e will not be supported by Pazio as much as I had hoped for. I was really looking forward to a pathfinder serie in 4th edition. This is unlikely to happen or at the very least require much more work as a DM from my part.
As other have mentioned. Necromancer games will be doing a adventure path of their own. Clark has been geeked about it for over a year now. He was inspired by Pathfinder. But then news of 4e came out and it brought those plans to a crashing halt, like all of Necro products not already on the way to the printer. He now plans to release it for 4e(assuming they still go 4e which seems likely baring something in the GSL or the 4e rules that just really rub them wrong, but no one will know that till WotC gets off their a$$ and gives 3rd party publishers the GSL and rules)
I wouldn't be overly surprised to see some of the paizo writers working on Necro 4e books and vice versa. As I pointed out on the necro board this is a win win for both companies. Paizo has a way to publish stuff for 4e thru necro and Necro if they have something they want to make but can't cause of the GSL or something they can still make it for 3.5 thru Paizo. So I can see people from both companies writing stuff for the other.
See, that is why joint ventures, properly designed, make money.
That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. I am sure that Lisa will argue otherwise but bottom line: 4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting. If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I am quite sad because so far I've always liked Paizo's work and was hoping to continue my campaigns with them. I am planing to switch to 4.0 because as a DM I approve of the changes that 4.0 will bring. So far, the Pathfinder RPG is unimpressive (it's closer to 3.51 than 3.75) and fails to address some of the sacred cows we've been dragging since 1st edition.
What a sad day
Sacred cows are what truly make D&D...because those are the things that call out to the people that "this is D&D, your D&D, and no one elses". It was the needless slaughter of those sacred cows that turned me completely off to 4E.
Now with 4th Edition, it appears D&D is being sold to...everyone plus all the little green men living on the moon. Which is what destroyed most of what D&D is with 4E.
Better mechanics are always fine. A bloody coup of everything D&D has worked hard on for 36 years...highly disrespectful to both the spirit of the game and its loyal fans.
Paizo definitely has my respect for not going 4E because that is NOT D&D.
That's it. its official: "Fans" will do the conversion work for Paizo. I am sure that Lisa will argue otherwise but bottom line: 4.0 will not get the support and creative talent I was expecting. If you let fans do your work for you for free, what kind of quality control should you expect? Probably not a lot. After all, you only get what you've paid for...
I am quite sad because so far I've always liked Paizo's work and was hoping to continue my campaigns with them. I am planing to switch to 4.0 because as a DM I approve of the changes that 4.0 will bring. So far, the Pathfinder RPG is unimpressive (it's closer to 3.51 than 3.75) and fails to address some of the sacred cows we've been dragging since 1st edition.
What a sad day
I would have to say its closer to 3.722554227445575422857 than 3.75. The did the calculations on my Quantum computer, so my figures are 99.99% accurate. I would be happy with 3.7325455552555154554455 accuracy, but thats just me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yeah, I think people are missing this fact. Paizo will support 4E through Necromancer Games. And they will encourage converting their APs to 4E.
Their Pathfinder products however will be in the new Pathfinder RPG system so that they can control how their world develops.
I think this is a very good idea.
As do I. Though I'm sure some choose to miss the fact either to force the bitterness to continue, or to rage against the dying of the night.