In honor of Gary's life, my group played Tomb of Horrors today using 1st edition rules. Obviously everyone died (except the cleric*), and everyone had a blast (even the two players who've only used 3e). I haven't had such a good time behind the DM screen since I was twelve years old.
When all was said and done, the group unanimously voted to shelve our 3.5 campaign (which is currently between adventures) in favor of a new 1st edition campaign. I nearly wept with joy. I've been an ardent supporter of 4e, but it's looking like I won't be buying the books just yet.
So screw you, 4e! The Village of Hommlet awaits!
*Oh yeah, the cleric. This was amazing. The group had been whittled down to 3: The gnomish fighter/illusionist, the elven magic user/thief, and the cleric. They had decided to camp in the Chapel of Evil to regain spells. The cleric announces that he has a few cures left and the others line up to be healed. The (secretly Lawful Evil) cleric casts Cause Serious Wounds on the gnome, killing him outright. The elf figures out what's happening too late, and the cleric bashes her head in with a +3 mace. The cleric whistles his way out of the Tomb of Horrors carrying everyone's stuff.
Somewhere in the Outer Plains, I think Gary was smiling.
As a matter of interest, what was it about 1st ed that made you enjoy it so much? Was it nostalgia or the system or something else? I haven't played 1st ed for years so am really interested.
Everyone was dead except the cleric? Sounds like fun.
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j/k... I have friends with whom I could get away with that and everyone would laugh their asses off. But most gaming groups I've seen would get a little pissed off if one of them whacked the others.
:-) Great idea.
Are you planning on going through the entire T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil, A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords, and GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders arc? Maybe you could start with U1 The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, and U3 The Final Enemy instead.
What books are you using? PHB, DMG, and MM only? Or those plus UA, DSG, WSG, FF, and MM2? Will you use PHB monks or OA monks (possibly with the different MA styles in Dragon issues 121 and 122)?
This (along with the Roll 3d6, Six Times, In Order thread) makes me want to break out my AD&D (1st Ed) books, also.
Last time I played Tombof Horrors , everyone lived except the cleric (who was disintegrated by the lich).
:-) Great idea.
Are you planning on going through the entire T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil, A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords, and GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders arc?
Maybe you could start with U1 The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, and U3 The Final Enemy instead.
I'd recommend Castles & Crusades to those looking to do an AD&D-type of game with more unified mechanics. The core rules are easily houseruled, quite flexible and easily used with AD&D or d20 materials.
Of course, if you prefer old-school AD&D, I'd never speak against that. I've been hankering to start up a game of that but, sadly, I've got no one interested in playing "classic" D&D.
Some other great adventures:
Keep on the Borderlands
The Assassin's Knot
The Lost Caverns of Tsocanth
White Plume Mountain
Ravenloft
I'd recommend Castles & Crusades to those looking to do an AD&D-type of game with more unified mechanics. The core rules are easily houseruled, quite flexible and easily used with AD&D or d20 materials.
I've always felt Castles & Crusades feels closer to the Basic/Expert D&D. Maybe it's just the attributes. Maybe it's that I can easily convert virtually the entire D&D Rules Cyclopedia into it. It's definitely better then the older boxed sets. I was running a Classic boxed set D&D campaign every other sunday until we got C&C and then we morphed it over into that game now.
Saltmarsh!!!!
That's my preference for a lead-in to the Slavelords (it's a bit easier, IMO). :-)
Not to mention I did some development for the town and I still have the notes. Stay away from the Bloody Cutlass, it's a rough place (not to mention the assassins who work there; Ned is the cook)!
However, if the OP is thinking of continuing through with the Queen of the Spiders, then there are some interconnections (drow, etc.) that can be highlighted.
Sorry, I'm not too sure of how to manage multiple quotes.
Re: Orcwart:
Though nostalgia cannot be discounted, I think it came down to the fact that I still remember the rules like the back of my hand. I've been running 3e for 2 years and I doubt I'll ever reach the same level of confidence with those rules.
Re: Kruelaid:
Had it been anything other than a one-shot module (and ToH at that), we wouldn't have found the betrayal as funny. The cleric's player would have never tried it in an ongoing campaign.
Re: Dragonchess Player:
Yes, we'll do Scourge of the Slavelords/Queen of Spiders. I'm torn about the lead in though. I love Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, but I didn't really like the others in that series (i'd probably use the Assassin's Knot to fill the gap). The only thing stopping me is that our 3.5 campaign has been kind of heavy on pirates (I've used a bit of Savage Tide for the basis). Our group has six players, half of which have played 1st edition and each of those has managed to somehow avoid any of the Temple/Slavers/Drow series. So maybe It's best to start with the Temple. I've never run ToEE, though. ToEE ranked higher on the "30 Greatest". Anyone else care to chime in on this one?
We'll be using all the books except OA. None of the players has shown any interest in being a Monk anyway. I've managed to lose my wilderness and dungeoneer's survival guides over the years but I'll try to score copies of those this week. I've got all the rest.
Re: Chris Perkins 88:
I've played C&C and have both books. It's pretty cool, but I'm kind of meh on the Primes. It looks good on paper, it's easy to use, but it just not right for me. It's hard to explain. I guess it's an primarily an aesthetic thing and I know that it's probably mechanically superior to some of AD&D's weirdness but I figure if I'm playing a retro game I'm going to all the way.
So maybe It's best to start with the Temple. I've never run ToEE, though. ToEE ranked higher on the "30 Greatest". Anyone else care to chime in on this one?
Be aware that if you play through ToEE, that the levels will probably not fit for starting the Slavers campaign - ToEE is set to end at level 8 roughly, while Slavers starts out at level 4 and goes to 8 as well. (roughly, I don´t have the details at hand) It would fit better to go from ToEE to QotS level-wise. You might to set the levels of Slavers higher, but might end up too high for QotS again at the end. Review the three campaigns in advance and keep watching the PCs levels closely.
You could write a backstory linking the drow appearing in all three campaigns into one big conspiracy.Just think of writing a campaign journal :-)
Stefan
Will you use PHB monks or OA monks (possibly with the different MA styles in Dragon issues 121 and 122)?
Whoops, that should be Dragon issues 122 and 127. "Martialing the Martial Arts" in #122 and "A Menagerie of Martial Arts" in #127.
Be aware that if you play through ToEE, that the levels will probably not fit for starting the Slavers campaign - ToEE is set to end at level 8 roughly, while Slavers starts out at level 4 and goes to 8 as well. (roughly, I don´t have the details at hand) It would fit better to go from ToEE to QotS level-wise. You might to set the levels of Slavers higher, but might end up too high for QotS again at the end. Review the three campaigns in advance and keep watching the PCs levels closely.
You could write a backstory linking the drow appearing in all three campaigns into one big conspiracy.Just think of writing a campaign journal :-)
Stefan
Yeah, I forgot to ask about that. Those modules are often lumped together, though. It seemed like level-appropriateness was a looser concept back then. I guess ToEE and QoTS are the parts I care the most about (though the last module in the Slavers series is pretty sweet).
I definitely want to link the Drow elements into the kind of vast conspiracy they deserve. I'll probably want to keep it in the background for a good lone while, though.I welcome suggestions any suggestions in this regard.
Yeah, I forgot to ask about that. Those modules are always lumped together, though. It seemed like level-appropriateness was a looser concept back then. I guess ToEE and QoTS are the parts I care the most about (though the last module in the Slavers series is pretty sweet).
Perhaps running ToEE, one or two of the Slavers, and QotS might be manageable. Some of the Slavers stuff is not that good anyway, IMO - they show their origin as competition modules overly strong. And the backstory added in the compilation is weak. Perhaps something in the ToEE could set the PCs on the track to the Slavers? I seem to recall that some slaves were sent from the Temple to the Slavers anyway.
I definitely want to link the Drow elements into the kind of vast conspiracy they deserve. I'll probably want to keep it in the background for a good lone while, though.I welcome suggestions any suggestions in this regard.
Hmm... regarding the connection from ToEE to Slavers, this might be a literal, subterranean connection (and you should get a DSG, then ;-)), with the PCs having to fight their way through tunnels ending in Suderham.
And in Suderham, the PCs might find some hint to the start of QotS. So they find this note telling them about the evil scheme, and no matter how much they hurry, it is already set in motion.
Reading and typing this lets me want to start a campaign like this right now as well *sigh*
Stefan
So maybe It's best to start with the Temple. I've never run ToEE, though. ToEE ranked higher on the "30 Greatest". Anyone else care to chime in on this one?
ToEE is a big multi-level dungeon crawl (fairly well done). If you're comfortable with that sort of thing, it's pretty good.
Be aware that if you play through ToEE, that the levels will probably not fit for starting the Slavers campaign - ToEE is set to end at level 8 roughly, while Slavers starts out at level 4 and goes to 8 as well.
If using the megamodule compilations, T1-4 covers levels 1-8, A1-4 covers levels 7-11, and GDQ 1-7 is advertised at levels 8-14 (which, IMO, should be considered the starting range). One thing to keep in mind with AD&D: the encounters are generally designed for large groups (6-8 party members, plus henchmen/hirelings).
I welcome suggestions any suggestions in this regard.
The PDFs for the T1-4, A1-4, and GDQ 1-7 megamodules are available through Paizo for $4 each (Temple of Elemental Evil, Scourge of the Slavelords, and Queen of the Spiders).
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Saltmarsh!!!!That's my preference for a lead-in to the Slavelords (it's a bit easier, IMO). :-)
Not to mention I did some development for the town and I still have the notes. Stay away from the Bloody Cutlass, it's a rough place (not to mention the assassins who work there; Ned is the cook)!
However, if the OP is thinking of continuing through with the Queen of the Spiders, then there are some interconnections (drow, etc.) that can be highlighted.
Hey did you do U2 and U3 as well? I'm thinking about them, albeit heavily bastardized versions.
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IDK about Slave Lords; maybe; What I think is cool is this:
(I'm getting to U1 slowly but surely).
The party helped this Grandma move her stuff to Fort Bale; she's a 200 y.o. archmage with dementia precog, so she has all this crazy stuff at her house....so anyway I had her gaff have a masterwork replica of the sword Blackrazor illusioned on the blade with the starry night deal, and one guy goes, "oh, hell! I've gotta run S2 now!!!"
It's far out, man. That Greyhawk stuff is golden.
Hey did you do U2 and U3 as well? I'm thinking about them, albeit heavily bastardized versions.Saltmarsh!!!!That's my preference for a lead-in to the Slavelords (it's a bit easier, IMO). :-)
Not to mention I did some development for the town and I still have the notes. Stay away from the Bloody Cutlass, it's a rough place (not to mention the assassins who work there; Ned is the cook)!
They were the first three AD&D modules I bought.
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If using the megamodule compilations, T1-4 covers levels 1-8, A1-4 covers levels 7-11, and GDQ 1-7 is advertised at levels 8-14 (which, IMO, should be considered the starting range). One thing to keep in mind with AD&D: the encounters are generally designed for large groups (6-8 party members, plus henchmen/hirelings).
Yes. It was nice of them to alter those levels slightly when they decided to craft the campaign arc. In all ways those three megamodules (after some editing of the original material) represented the proto-adventure path concept.
I believe the Shakeshaft family motto is, "No matter how you shake and dance, the last few drops go down your pants."
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Some of the Slavers stuff is not that good anyway, IMO - they show their origin as competition modules overly strong.
I recall that the adventures are expanded from the original tournaments, with notes to the effect of 'If you wish to run this as identical to the competition module, block off the entrances to areas X, Y and Z, and cut out encounter A'. That way, you could theoretically blast through it in one session, and also give out less xp, so it's less of a problem fitting in between the other adventures.
Hmm... regarding the connection from ToEE to Slavers, this might be a literal, subterranean connection (and you should get a DSG, then ;-)), with the PCs having to fight their way through tunnels ending in Suderham.
I must have had a DM who did this, since I had a sense of deja vu on reading A4, having fought the battle at the docks, but without any of the rest of that module. And I think I'd have remembered the rest of that module!
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I just have done U1 so many times, it's like my house.
I should have guessed you weren't house-trained; you're responsible for the rotten floorboards and the mould?
I couldn't believe it when I saw the love for U1-3 in Dragon magazine, and on these boards (and in DMG2!).
As a UK player, I always assumed I was totally out of the loop, playing in the arse-end of nowhere, unable to attend conventions, unable to find Dragon Magazine, doomed to play amid the rolling tumbleweed and the chirping crickets. Especially after Imagine Magazine was cancelled, and TSR UK disbanded (and all their staff moved to Games Workshop, to thrash TSR at their own game, oh, why-oh-why do I feel history repeating itself, again?).
I never would have thought any of you would even have heard of Saltmarsh, yet there it is, in the 'Top 30 Adventures Of All Time' list!
Some of the Slavers stuff is not that good anyway, IMO - they show their origin as competition modules overly strong.I recall that the adventures are expanded from the original tournaments, with notes to the effect of 'If you wish to run this as identical to the competition module, block off the entrances to areas X, Y and Z, and cut out encounter A'. That way, you could theoretically blast through it in one session, and also give out less xp, so it's less of a problem fitting in between the other adventures.
Yes you could leave a lot of things out. But some of the parts of these modules did not even try to make any sense beyond being a gauntlet for players to solve. That´s what I found weak.
Stefan
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Stay away from the Bloody Cutlass, it's a rough place (not to mention the assassins who work there; Ned is the cook)!
How does he survive 20(?) years to appear in DMG2?
Everyone I've run it for, and every other DM I know, who's ever run it, in 3 editions of D&D, would indicate that every group kills him deader than a dodo within 5 minutes of meeting him.Hey did you do U2 and U3 as well? I'm thinking about them, albeit heavily bastardized versions.
I altered U2, to take out the
I think this tied to the setting better, fit the political theme, and stopped the
I just have done U1 so many times, it's like my house.
I've been inside that house. It's one dandy fixer-upper. Did you get it when the real estate market bottomed out?
I believe the Shakeshaft family motto is, "No matter how you shake and dance, the last few drops go down your pants."True enough. The thematically related family crest gave the officer of arms a bloody conniption.
You think that's bad. I was once headed the royal guard for the Morningscratch monarchy. The back of all of our capes were sizeably embroidered with their pitiable family crest and our marches looked like nuts on parade.
Was that under Duke Balzac?
That's a place you just don't wanna be. He was involved in the Teabag Dome scandal. It was terrible.
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:-) Great idea.
Are you planning on going through the entire T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil, A1-4 Scourge of the Slavelords, and GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders arc? Maybe you could start with U1 The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, and U3 The Final Enemy instead.
This (along with the Roll 3d6, Six Times, In Order thread) makes me want to break out my AD&D (1st Ed) books, also.
Hey guys, don't forget this one, not as well known, but really excellent :
N1 "Against the cult of the reptile god".
Really good stuff.
Hey guys, don't forget this one, not as well known, but really excellent :
N1 "Against the cult of the reptile god".
Really good stuff.
I can't believe I left that off of my short list o' classics! I just ran that adventure, converted for use with Castles & Crusades. A fun adventure with a good mix of roleplaying, dungeoncrawling, and fighting.
Hasn't changed my plans regarding 4E, but I've been looking more and more at my older products and at Paizo's TSR PDF stuff.
Very Long Update:
I've been reading interviews with Gary, and I'm still making my way through T1-4, but these are my plans so far:
My first aim is to make Hommlet as richly detailed as possible. Fortunately, Gygax did most of the heavy lifting already. It's a relatively simple matter to give names and "one-line personalities" to the unnamed NPCs, but I want to make the important ones as distinct as possible. I've got one of those Mead composition books where each page is half graph paper and half notebook paper, and I'm making little maps of all the houses in Hommlet and adding details as I go.
I think the best way to approach an old module like Hommlet is to strive to create a rich environment in which the PCs create their own stories, rather than attempt to propel the characters through some labyrinthine plot (something that many modern adventure writers would do well to remember). If you look at a place like Sandpoint, you'll find a unique, atmospheric town where a hundred interesting things could occur every week, even if the PCs never go off to face Karzoug. That's the feeling I'm hoping to create in Hommlet. If I can pull that off, then the Temple of Elemental Evil will just be icing on the cake (should the PCs decide to go there).
I've got a few subplots and personalities for some of the NPCs lined up, in addition to those suggested by the module:
Elmo- He's pretty interesting as-is (an agent of Verbobonc masquerading as the town drunk), so I'll wait for the party to interact with him a bit before I start to flesh him out, but for his personality I'm steering well clear of Aragorn and Faramir and looking instead toward someone like Sherlock Holmes.
Ostler Gundigoot, Innkeeper at the Welcome Wench- My first thought was to play Ostler after the manner of Al Swearengen on Deadwood, but Ostler's a family man. Then I thought about my other favorite HBO series, Carnivale, and I settled on Stumpy. Done and done.
Rannos & Gremag- not too sure on these guys yet. They're basically there to screw the PCs and keep track of things for the Temple. They've each got okay Intelligence, low Wisdom, and really low Charisma, so I'm not sure the PCs should really have a hard time sussing out their motives. Any suggestions?
Jaroo Ashstaff- Although the Church of St. Cuthbert counts many denizens of Hommlet amongst it's flock, it is widely apparent that the Old Faith still holds sway in the hearts of the locals. Jaroo is the sagacious representative of the Old Faith in Hommlet, and this makes him an unofficial leader in the village. At 7th level, he's also one of the most powerful. Jaroo has a secret network of fieldmice that act as spies and keep him fully apprised of events in the village, which he in turn reports to the druids of the Gnarly Wood. (This is specifically inspired by the Jethro Tull song "The Mouse Police Never Sleeps" and the similary-titled issue of the comic book series Fables). It's also got me thinking about portraying Hommlet as a slightly less sinister version of Summerisle (the town in the 1973 horror masterpiece The Wickerman. Avoid the 2006 remake like mummyrot, however).
Canon Terjon- I'm just not feeling Terjon as the module portrays him, so I'm swiping his personality directly from Derek Jacobi's portrayal of Brother Cadfael (perhaps grafting the stern personality onto Calmert, his assistant). I think Terjon's in Hommlet as some sort of reprimand by the Arch-clericy. Terjon is the moderate voice on the Town Council, he is developing a close friendship with Jaroo, and he attempts to get away from the church as often as possible. He is aware of the secret between Rufus & Burne (see below). I'm considering a murder subplot in which Terjon reveals himself as a swashbuckling amateur sleuth, possibly as a springboard for the Ruined Moathouse). I've also got a vague idea about Terjon being an analog to Captain Clegg from the Hammer movie of the same name.
( Since I'm still not through reading the module, I guess this is a good time to ask if Terjon is intended to be a villain or anything like that? If so I'll have to rethink it)
Burne & Rufus- I'm strongly considering having a discreet homosexual relationship between these two, which I'll leave to the players figure out on their own. The pair are well loved by the community, but many of the locals may not be as tolerant as Terjon if they were to find out.
The PCs are probably going to need the aid of these two if they plan to assault the Temple, and the way they are portrayed in the module I can't really see my players asking them for help. I've chosen to add the relationship to make them a bit more interesting in a way I believe my players will identify with. (Actually, none of my players are gay but they are mature and I know them well enough to be assured that I can pull this off tastefully).
(*Also, if anyone has a problem with this choice, I'd prefer to refrain from fussing about it here. I respect your opinion, but it's my game and it's a minor detail anyway, so no threadcrapping please).
Burne's Badgers- 18 men-at-arms in service to Burne & Rufus. I can see my players spending some time carousing with this bunch, so they'll need names at the very least. Cross the Musketeers and the Merry Men and I'm good to go. Of course, it's only right if one or two of them is a traitor working for the Temple...
Denizens of the Welcome Wench Inn:
Zert, the CE fighter - Just for fun, Zert is going to have a shield and ceremonial armor that resemble Warduke's, though his helmet will be a bit different. (I'm planning on having the 8th lvl Warduke from the Shady Dragon Inn supplement show up in the campaign at some point, possibly as the mercenary who kidnapped Prince Thrommel! BOOYAH!).
Spugnoir, hapless magician- Spugnoir is good to go as written. I immediately thought of Schmedrick from the Last Unicorn (voiced by Alan Arkin, IIRC). Comic relief, he'll probably end up dying horribly...
Furnok of Ferd- Sounds like Alan-A-Dale to me. He might get into some trouble with Kobort and Turuko so that the PCs can rescue him and expose the pair for the scumbags they are.
Kobort & Turuko- Turuko fancies himself to be quite clever, but with an Intelligence of 9 he shouldn't be much of a threat to anyone. I'm not too interested in concealing their motives, the PCs will have enough trouble as it is...
And our villain,
Lareth the Beautiful- the Dark Hope of Chaotic Evil. And here, we see the first weaknesses of modules from this era. Gygax spends nearly 20 pages developing Hommlet but neglects to give any reason for the PCs to venture to the ruined moathouse to face the bad guys (or even any actual events that would lead to the PCs seeking it out on their own). Sigh.
Well, I'm assuming I'm supposed to rely on Rannos & Gremag (or maybe Zert or the aforementioned bad seeds in Burne's Badgers) to get the ball rolling. I suppose the PCs could stop a bandit attack (they might even get to see Elmo kicking some brigand ass and come to his aid, or vice versa). Alternatively, they might mix it up with Zert in the Welcome Wench and afterward be invited by Ostler to a meeting of the Town Council (who ask for the PCs help). Or, I could rely on the murder plot I was kicking around (but have yet to develop).
I'm not *too* worried about that yet, though. As I said, if I do my job as DM well enough, the party will want to become involved on their own...
As for Lareth- he's easy. Ziggy Stardust, with a dash of Huilliam D'Averc (the hilariously over-the-top villain from Moorcock's Hawkmoon). Shake over ice, and serve. Huzzah!
Anyway, that's what I've got so far. Sorry for the overlong post. I'm thinking that this thread no longer belongs in the 4e forum, but there's not much I can do about that. I'll be keeping a blog elsewhere and posting my notes once the campaign begins. Chargen is this weekend, so I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
I'd love to here some of Paizo's opinions on what they would do if they were going to run Hommlet at this point in their careers, but I know everyone's busy as all hell these days. I gather from Lisa's post that the staff isn't really frequenting the 4e forums anymore, which is a shame, but I can hardly blame them at this point. No need for further editorializing on my part, though.
Nice.
I spent a day or so looking over my Saltmarsh notes and tightening up a few things (my DM skills have improved a lot in 20+ years). Some of the personalities will get more depth or be changed slightly. At the time, I played NPCs in a rather broad, more simple style.
Anyway, I was also rolling up some pregenerated characters to fit in with the area (south-west Keoland). I was going to allow better than "normal" characters (to appeal to the 3.x crowd): roll 4d6, drop lowest, six times; arrange as desired; sacrifice 2 points from one stat to raise another by 1, cannot reduce a stat below 10 or raise above 18 before racial adjustments; maximum starting hp; UA, DSG, and WSG rules in effect; allowed races human, hill dwarf, sylvan elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, and halfling.
My dice were possesed or something. First set of rolls: 18, 14, 15, 11, 17, 15! For six characters (36 rolls), I ended up with 2x18, 5x17, 2x16, 9x15, 4x14, 3x13, 6x12, 4x11, and 1x10; every single one had a 17 or 18 for the highest stat and at least 3 rolls of 14 or higher. The first character became a paladin (cavalier) with 18/52 Str, 11 Int, 14 Wis, 15/32 Dex, 15/15 Con, 17/94 Cha; rolling on the social class table in UA gave me 88 (Lower Upper Class), which let the paladin start as a 1st level cavalier with plate mail, shield, lance, longsword, dagger, a medium warhorse, and 70-180gp. Then, for the other character with an 18 (a ranger longbow specialist), I rolled a 98 for percentile Str. The rest of the set includes a cleric of Xerbo (Suloise deity of sea, travel and trade; main temple in Saltmarsh; clerics can use tridents and switch out Fire Walk for Water Breathing and Flame Strike for Conjure Elemental [water only] on their spell lists), half-elf druid (with two guard dogs), magic user (apprentice to the local herbalist/sage), and gnome illusionist/thief. What a powerful bunch.