If 4th edition is comparable to "New Coke", then do you think that perhaps, should this new edition suffer a degree of lackluster sales, that WotC might consider re-printing the 3.x rules as their equivalent to "Coca-Cola Classic".
I know that this is a stretch, but by comparison, its happened in industry before.
And, if say WotC had a heart to heart with alot of 3.x loving fans, and said "Hey, we're going to go ahead and continue printing the core books for 3.5 (or whichever 3.x) and perhaps look into bringing a few titles back of our own, with some new art here and there... but the price is going to be a bit higher, say $50 to cover each core book due to the losses we've had..."... would you, in the effort to see 3.x hopefully become the continual standard for D&D here on out (as Coca Cola "classic" became), be willing to go out and buy new core book copies, whether you need it or not, at an investment of $150 just to help get the ball rolling again?
Granted, I'm not speaking for WotC on this, I do not work for them, I do not know if they would even do this, I'm just curious as to everyone's insight on this.
Ok..Unfortunatly the pessimist in me doesnt see this happening in a million years.
If 4th Edition turns out to be like New Coke and the change to a "New and Imporved" product is a failure...I think WotC and Hasbro will pack it up and let D&D die.
I'm guessing 4th edition was created because Hasbro was not happy with 3.5 sales. If 4th edition does worse than 3.5 I dont see them going back to 3.5. I see Hasbro declaring Pen and Paper RPGs to be an old and dying hobby and pull out.
It will be up to 3rd party companies to use the OGL to keep D&D alive despite not being able to use the name D&D.
Now as far as your hypothetical situation. If WotC decides to go back to 3.5 because 4th was a flop....I would re-buy the Core Rulebooks only if they had errata and other improvements. If they just reprinted the 3.5 Corebooks no way would I re-purchase them even if it meant supporting the hobby. I just dont have the money to spend $150 on something I already have.
What do you mean "it's happened in the industry before"?
You mean like BattleTech Classic? That's a whole different company though. Not quite the same as 'going back to the old way'.
CyberPunk needs to do this though. 2.0.2.0 rocked. And then along came Generations and the game got weird. And then 3rd edition made it ... well, I dunno what to make of that game. Hope it works for somebody. It was a cool idea for a game.
Since we're dealing in speculative day dreams here; if, by some twist of fate, 3.5 D&D/ post 4.0 D&D was put on the Block, who would you want to buy it? Who would have the clout to keep it rolling? My money would be on Fantasy Flight or Paizo.
Since we're dealing in speculative day dreams here; if, by some twist of fate, 3.5 D&D/ post 4.0 D&D was put on the Block, who would you want to buy it? Who would have the clout to keep it rolling? My money would be on Fantasy Flight or Paizo.
It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.
What do you mean "it's happened in the industry before"?
You mean like BattleTech Classic? That's a whole different company though. Not quite the same as 'going back to the old way'.
CyberPunk needs to do this though. 2.0.2.0 rocked. And then along came Generations and the game got weird. And then 3rd edition made it ... well, I dunno what to make of that game. Hope it works for somebody. It was a cool idea for a game.
I actually meant in "industry" itself so to speak, not the game industry.
I was really referring to the deal with Coca-Cola... Yes, completely differnt industry, greater mass market, etc. etc. etc.But, as stated already in this post, this is a purely hypothetical daydream.
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Since we're dealing in speculative day dreams here; if, by some twist of fate, 3.5 D&D/ post 4.0 D&D was put on the Block, who would you want to buy it? Who would have the clout to keep it rolling? My money would be on Fantasy Flight or Paizo.It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.
You're kidding right? They barely get their own books out the door. Their releases are sloooooow.
would you, in the effort to see 3.x hopefully become the continual standard for D&D here on out (as Coca Cola "classic" became), be willing to go out and buy new core book copies, whether you need it or not, at an investment of $150 just to help get the ball rolling again?
Absolutely not, talk about a money grab...
Since we're dealing in speculative day dreams here; if, by some twist of fate, 3.5 D&D/ post 4.0 D&D was put on the Block, who would you want to buy it? Who would have the clout to keep it rolling? My money would be on Fantasy Flight or Paizo.It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.You're kidding right? They barely get their own books out the door. Their releases are sloooooow.
No but it follows pattern. Who expected WotC to buy D&D from TSR? Who is the last people you'd expect to "save" D&D one more time around? And WW has Monte Cook doing some stuff for them now. So it's not like they wouldn't know heads from tails of it.
It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.
Actually, personnaly, the last one I would expect is Steve Jackson Games (GURPS).
It is like New Coke... it's only palatable if it's mixed with a healthy quantity of rum or whiskey!!
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I 4E does flop then any follow on product would not be 3.X. It would be 5E. It may harken back to an older edition but 3.X needs too many revisions to just be reprinted or even tweaked.
Mongoose Traveller will feel like the original but it will be mechanically different.
If 4E fails as a system then 5E will be a throwback in feel but not necessarily in mechanics.
I 4E does flop then any follow on product would not be 3.X. It would be 5E. It may harken back to an older edition but 3.X needs too many revisions to just be reprinted or even tweaked.
Mongoose Traveller will feel like the original but it will be mechanically different.
If 4E fails as a system then 5E will be a throwback in feel but not necessarily in mechanics.
They would also let it wallow for a few years to try and recreate the 2E -> 3E surge.
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They've invested too much into 4E and the DDI. There is no way they would go back to 3.5 since it's obviously not making enough money for them. If it was, 4E wouldn't even be announced yet. If they both flop, it would probably mean the pen and paper RPG department of WotC would be history. At best, they'd sell the D&D brand it to a company that would know what to do with the brand. At worst, they'd sit on the IP and use it for novels, video games, etc.
Actually, personnaly, the last one I would expect is Steve Jackson Games (GURPS).
It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.
True. GURPS is better ;)
Honestly, I don't think anybody in the industry could afford the D&D price tag.
They've invested too much into 4E and the DDI. There is no way they would go back to 3.5 since it's obviously not making enough money for them. If it was, 4E wouldn't even be announced yet. If they both flop, it would probably mean the pen and paper RPG department of WotC would be history. At best, they'd sell the D&D brand it to a company that would know what to do with the brand. At worst, they'd sit on the IP and use it for novels, video games, etc.
It's possible they could license the pencil and paper RPG portion to another company (Paizo, perhaps?) for development if 4e flops and they get out of the that market. Unfortunately, there is almost no chance they'd sell the D&D brand name and lose the revenue from the minis, novels, and other D&D merchandise that's earning them a healthy profit.
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If 4E fails as a system then 5E will be a throwback in feel but not necessarily in mechanics.
I agree, but it won't be called 5E or 4.5 or whatever. They'll lose the numbers and try and do a reboot. It'll just be called Dungeons and Dragons. It'll probably draw thematically and fluffwise from every edition. Rules could be a rework of 3.5 or could be entirely new spin on established concepts.
3.5 is still a viable system but it needs fine tuning and to clear away some vestigial rules from more recent expansions. In layman's speak that'd be, "they need to cut the crazy and the nerfing out". I'm sick of the X times a day BS, but that's another rant. }; )
They've invested too much into 4E and the DDI. There is no way they would go back to 3.5 since it's obviously not making enough money for them. If it was, 4E wouldn't even be announced yet. If they both flop, it would probably mean the pen and paper RPG department of WotC would be history. At best, they'd sell the D&D brand it to a company that would know what to do with the brand. At worst, they'd sit on the IP and use it for novels, video games, etc.
If Electronic arts buys it, we are all doomed. Doomed I tell you!
I'd buy D&D Classic only because at the rate my core books disintegrate (about 4 years), it'd likely come along just in time. I plan on buying a new set of 3.5 in June.
I'm in the same boat... about 4 years is what I get... my DM's guide is in seriously miserable shape. I'll be buying a new set somewhere between mid April to June myself.
The only possible name for the next edition would be:
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Third Edition
3e and 4e are technically new editions of Dungeons and Dragons. AD&D had a second edition, but never had a third. Of course, all of these editions changed unrecognizably over their lifetimes with books like Unearthed Arcana, Spells & Powers, PHB2, and so on. But the point is that from a very real administrative point of view AD&D3 is still an available title.
And if it's a reaction to the "New Coke" feeling of 4e, putting the AD&D sticker on it would clue in the Grognards like no one's business.
-Frank
I think I just had a nerdgasm.
The only possible name for the next edition would be:
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Third Edition
I have been arguing that this is the name for a while now. It makes perfect sense to me.
It is like New Coke... it's only palatable if it's mixed with a healthy quantity of rum or whiskey!!
ZING! You are correct sir!
So they make a conscious effort to get rid of us and insult us in the process, making it clear that our money isn't good enough for them, just to find out that firing confirmed customers for potential new ones is a bad idea. Then they come back and say that our money isn't that bad now the other guys don't want them to give theirs, and on top of that they want more of our money?
No way in hell. If you want people take care of you when you feel bad, you should treat them like people when you feel good.
Coke is something you drink. It's easy to revert to the prior formula. (Note though that in the US, New Coke bombing enable the b**tards to slip corn syrup into my Coca-Cola instead of cane sugar.)
Gaming isn't something you drink, even if you drink while gaming.
Plus there's a whole staff of game writers at Wizards. Even if 4E isn't a huge success (and there's no way to tell), they aren't going to go backwards. That's like saying "Vista sucks! Let's go back to Millenium Edition." Instead they'll try to build another system.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This is a brief threadjack:
(Note though that in the US, New Coke bombing enable the b**tards to slip corn syrup into my Coca-Cola instead of cane sugar.)
Look in the "ethnic foods" aisle, in the kosher section, for passover-approved Coca-Cola. Made with cane sugar, because corn syrup is considered a grain product.
That's like saying "Vista sucks! Let's go back to Millenium Edition."
You could have used better choices for your examples... Unless you are trying to suggest 3rd Edition is worse than Basic.
Or buyout WOW and focus on that,
Thats not likely to happen.
Activision just bought Blizzard. Hasbro would have to come with a very big check to convince ActiBlizzard that they have earned their returns.
Coke is something you drink. It's easy to revert to the prior formula. (Note though that in the US, New Coke bombing enable the b**tards to slip corn syrup into my Coca-Cola instead of cane sugar.)
Gaming isn't something you drink, even if you drink while gaming.
Plus there's a whole staff of game writers at Wizards. Even if 4E isn't a huge success (and there's no way to tell), they aren't going to go backwards. That's like saying "Vista sucks! Let's go back to Millenium Edition." Instead they'll try to build another system.
but Vista Does suck and people did say so and Micro$oft was forced to start adding in more copies of XP for people to have and companies were forced to give people options. (Besides there's nothing wrong with cornsyrup plus it helped our economy.)
I'm sorry you feel that way. Ever since I cut corn syrup and all products associated with it out of my diet, I lost ten pounds.
plus it helped our economy.)
There is so much wrong with that statement, but I don't feel like getting into my argiculture subsidy rant.
True. GURPS is better ;)Actually, personnaly, the last one I would expect is Steve Jackson Games (GURPS).
It would be White Wolf. Just because that's the last ones you'd expect.
it is, but the most unexpected to buy would be Palladium Books, imho :)
it is, but the most unexpected to buy would be Palladium Books, imho :)
The problem there is, they can't even afford their own books let alone a company
I'm sorry you feel that way. Ever since I cut corn syrup and all products associated with it out of my diet, I lost ten pounds.
did you cut soda in general?if so that could be as much due to the carbonation, at least from some of the things I've heard
(Besides there's nothing wrong with cornsyrup
Oh my god, you'd kill wife with a comment like that. I won't rant on that now (much like Russ), but dang... That made my head explode a little. [/slight_rant]
While I agree that IF 4E sucks Pelor's hairy holy symbol Hasbro/WotC will do something, I have no idea what that "something" would be. As much as I'd like to see a 3.5 revival, ala Coke Classic (despite my Pepsi loving tastes), I somehow doubt that that will ever happen by WotC's hand. A third party company picking up the 3.5 everburning torch? More than likely.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. Ever since I cut corn syrup and all products associated with it out of my diet, I lost ten pounds.did you cut soda in general?if so that could be as much due to the carbonation, at least from some of the things I've heard
I also cut out corn syrup as much as I could. My wife is borderline diabetic and I have it in the family so better safe than sorry. However, I still swill my diet cherry pepsi, diet sunkist, and diet mt dew every day. The overuse of corn syrup is bad. It's in friggin everything...
However, I still swill my diet cherry pepsi, diet sunkist, and diet mt dew every day. The overuse of corn syrup is bad. It's in friggin everything...
Yes, corn syrup is... I can tell you as an individual in the health profession by day (game designer by night), corn syrup is bad AND in everything. Granted, I'm in the mental health field and moving closer to counseling and social work via education but I still had to obtain that CNA license and the basics of medical protocol... corn syrup is bad... as a person into alternative medicine outside my field... corn syrup is bad... AND in EVERYTHING.
If a person wants to know just how much everything... go through your grocery store on your day off and start reading ingredients... be surprised in how many products its the majority ingredient.
hmm we should probably stop the derail here but if someone wanted to start an info on a more appropriate section I'd like to learn more about why corn syrup is so bad for you. I've heard people claim it but never heard anything to back it up. I'm not saying I don't trust you, I'd just like more info in an appropriate section.
hmm we should probably stop the derail here but if someone wanted to start an info on a more appropriate section I'd like to learn more about why corn syrup is so bad for you. I've heard people claim it but never heard anything to back it up. I'm not saying I don't trust you, I'd just like more info in an appropriate section.
Its not so much as corn syrup itself as it's massive use in the food industry application.... corn syrup is a complex carbohydrate, and too good of an inert base for its own good. Really, it would probably be as bad if cane sugar was used as much, but its the extended use of corn syrup as a base that makes it so wrong.... basically the food industry is foundering on it.
Pick up the back of several labels and look to see exactly how much repeatedly it has been used over and over again.Basically, corn syrup is a very common inert ingredient. In addition to providing some sense of sweetening, it provides a syrupy bulk... like starches do for other products but to a heavier added degree. When you consider that your body... evolutionary wise (I'm not wanting to get into a design versus evolution debate here though)... was not exactly built to consume so much of an available complex carb... you can see the worries in the mass consumption of it on a daily basis.
it is, but the most unexpected to buy would be Palladium Books, imho :)
Thanks.
I tell you, if I can't sleep tonight because of nightmares, I'm coming over and kick your butt. And you'd have deserved it!
;-P
That's like saying "Vista sucks! Let's go back to Millenium Edition." Instead they'll try to build another system.
You compare 3e to Millenium? That's about the gravest insult you can give.
Why do you hate Monte and the rest so much? Couldn't you insult them in a less rude fashion? You could tell him "Your mother is so dumb she takes 2 hours to watch 60 minutes. She's so fat that if she gets in the tub, the water in the toilet rises." That would not be as bad as call 3e ME.
And I thought wizards was bad in their slander about 3e. I take it all back!
(just for those who haven't noticed: I'm just kidding - though Palladium and ME really are bad. No need to get worked up or say that we 3e fans are rude or anything)