I LOVE the cast of iconics that have been come up with for Runelords, with Merisiel, Seoni, Kyra and Valeros. They're great! I've even worked them into our home campaign as tag alongs and they've become very beloved. It for exactly that reason that I'm a little concerned. The question came up, whether the new AP was going to let us see a whole new dynamic of 1st level characters (cool) or whether instead it was going to just be a restart of the old setting with the same cast of beloved characters, but restarted and stripped of their levels (not as cool).
I figured this new cast might be the much anticipated paladin, dwarf, and old guy troupe. I certainly am hoping it is. I just wanted to drop a post to see what, in fact, the plan is and to maybe throw some weight behind the idea of seeing some of the new faces this time around.
Creative Director
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I figured this new cast might be the much anticipated paladin, dwarf, and old guy troupe. I certainly am hoping it is. I just wanted to drop a post to see what, in fact, the plan is and to maybe throw some weight behind the idea of seeing some of the new faces this time around.
Yup; Curse of the Crimson Throne's iconics are indeed Seelah (the paladin), Harsk (the dwarven ranger), Ezren (the wizard), and Lem (the halfling bard). Look for Lem's big intro on Monday, by the way, over on the Paizo Blog.
Oooh! Bard! Can't wait till Monday now!
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Yup; Curse of the Crimson Throne's iconics are indeed Seelah (the paladin), Harsk (the dwarven ranger), Ezren (the wizard), and Lem (the halfling bard). Look for Lem's big intro on Monday, by the way, over on the Paizo Blog.
So, have you settled on a twelth iconic? I can see a druid and barbarian being fine for Second Darkness, the monk out of place in Riddleport (just as out of place as Harsk in Korvosa), but what kind of caster will you have for the 12th? I assume you're still set against a nomad or kineticist. The avatar, shaman or witch from Green Ronin?
It was kind of my understanding that they were going to start recycling iconics at that point and use the ones they have for a while rather than continually introducing new ones.
Sean Mahoney
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Very true, but there are more characters planned then classes. They said there will be 6 male and 6 female iconics (12 Iconics total.) There are only 11 Core classes. So the question is, what will be the 12th.
They did say we'll see party blending and that the Iconics will get to know eachother, but I figured we'd see everyone before there was blending.
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Creative Director
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There will indeed be a 12th iconic on Pathfinder 12; we haven't revealed information about this character yet, though. After Pathfinder 12, the cover NPC will shift; we'll start illustrating an important NPC from each adventure on the cover rather than a PC. And after Second Darkness, the 4 iconics we provide at the back will be different combinations of the ones we already have.
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There will indeed be a 12th iconic on Pathfinder 12; we haven't revealed information about this character yet, though. After Pathfinder 12, the cover NPC will shift; we'll start illustrating an important NPC from each adventure on the cover rather than a PC. And after Second Darkness, the 4 iconics we provide at the back will be different combinations of the ones we already have.
What if you choose to go with 4th edition? Will there be 14 iconics then (I believe I read in Classes & Races that there will be 3 new classes (Warlock, Warlord, Spellsword) in the PHB)?
Look for Lem's big intro on Monday, by the way, over on the Paizo Blog.
So when you say Monday, James, do you mean today (no blog posting, but Paizo offices are closed for the MLK holiday) or next Monday, the 28th?
Desperately hoping its the former...
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Or a Pathfinder original.
I hope not. One time, an original base class might be cool, but not as an iconic I'm going to see six consecutive times. Would you want the same class rules reprinted in adventures when that space could go towards new monsters? An occasional buyer might, but not the regulars. The alternative, printing only a few levels of the class in each issue has a similar problem: where do you look to find everything? Even though I'm only lukewarm towards psionics; it has the great advantage of having the rules in the SRD.
The no repeats rule is why I have been advocating for psionics. I'd really prefer another cleric for the 12th. One who doesn't take Extra Turning, Iron Will, or Martial Weapon Proficiency:Unprinted Prestige Class Requirement for her feats. I'm sure Sarenrae will have a badass sword-saint prestige class to justify some of those feats of Kyra's, but that article is months away and not likely to be previewed in her last stat block, since all the iconics are built single-classed. The Extra Turning bugs me the most. It was convenient for half of one adventure, and probably has not been useful since. You could argue that Seoni would be better off without Extend Spell, and it started out that way when she mostly used it for mage armor, but she has at least a few low-level spells that could use it like fly, invis, mirror image, resist elements, and enlarge person. From a pure number-crunching perspective, she might also have been better off with empowered scorching rays instead of whatever she maximizes, but either is still a fair pick for her evocation focus. Valeros' feats all support his concept and make for an interesting and tactical fighter. Merisiel also has useful feats. The only complaint with hers are they mostly support her rapier use more than the daggers, but rogues are always starved for feats anyway. Kyra is a mess! The Extra Turning or Iron Will(Honestly, +18 vs +16 for a precious feat? Did she swear to be at least twice as good as Seoni at being stubborn, damn the costs?) would be more useful as Silent Spell, Heighten Spell, or even Skill Focus(Concentration). Also, she has Quicken Spell, but doesn't prep anything with it. Perhaps somebody forgot she can't quicken spontaneous spells? More likely her statblock just didn't have room. It's a build like that which makes people view playing the cleric as a chore instead of the joy it is. If she was the only one of the four with prestige levels, it might be cool, but not as it is..
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What if you choose to go with 4th edition? Will there be 14 iconics then (I believe I read in Classes & Races that there will be 3 new classes (Warlock, Warlord, Spellsword) in the PHB)?
*shrugs*
I'm curious about Seoni since Sorcerer might be held until PHB2 or 3 and not be Core anymore, and if that happens, I wonder if it'll be OGL. Some of our Iconics might not make it into the mix if their classes vanish for a year or more in 4E.
Then again.. Seoni could be retcon'd into a Wizard with lots of fire spells. :)
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Creative Director
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Look for Lem's big intro on Monday, by the way, over on the Paizo Blog.So when you say Monday, James, do you mean today (no blog posting, but Paizo offices are closed for the MLK holiday) or next Monday, the 28th?
Desperately hoping its the former...
I wrote it for today, but it looks like it's not going to go live until tomorrow, I guess.
I hope the iconics survive any potential edition change.
My guess is still that the 12th will be some sort of Psion. After all, the Dungeon icons were rounded out with a Psion.
And I see the party dynamic that went into the CotCT iconics. No cleric, so we have three party members that can at least cast Cure Light Wounds. No rogue, so traps might be a problem, but bards can pick locks. Wizard and Sorceror obviously cover the same ground. Paladin and Ranger between them can cover the front line quite well.
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I hope the iconics survive any potential edition change.
Seoni seems to have a strong enough fan base that she could be retcon'd into a pyro wizard or even an Evoker (if the specialized wizard classes come out before sorcerer.)
We know for sure our new bard will have to wait atleast until PHB2 since Wizards has gone on the record saying they're not in the PHB.
Wizard and Sorceror obviously cover the same ground. Paladin and Ranger between them can cover the front line quite well.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Sorcerer only came about because of the number of wizard only spells in the PHB. Wizards realized there were too many spells that only the Wizard used, hence the change in flavor for the wizard.
Seeing as how much casting a Wizard will be able to do in 4 edition..
Spells at Will slots
Spells per Encounter slots
Spells per days slots
I can't being to imagine how a sorcerer can compete now.
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Seeing as how much casting a Wizard will be able to do in 4 edition..
Spells at Will slots
Spells per Encounter slots
Spells per days slots
I can't being to imagine how a sorcerer can compete now.
It is true that the entire rationale for the Sorcerer class has been done away with by the de-Vance-ification of the Wizard, but the talk seems to be that the Sorcerer will now channel spells differently, gaining elemental auras after casting elemental spells, for instance (sort of the reverse of a Reserve Feat, *casting* the spell, instead of holding on to it, to activate the related sub-power).
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Contributor
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What if you choose to go with 4th edition? Will there be 14 iconics then (I believe I read in Classes & Races that there will be 3 new classes (Warlock, Warlord, Spellsword) in the PHB)?
I suspect in that case we will keep the iconics we have and probably just repurpose them. I could be wrong, though. *shrug*
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It is true that the entire rationale for the Sorcerer class has been done away with by the de-Vance-ification of the Wizard, but the talk seems to be that the Sorcerer will now channel spells differently, gaining elemental auras after casting elemental spells, for instance (sort of the reverse of a Reserve Feat, *casting* the spell, instead of holding on to it, to activate the related sub-power).
It doesn't sound like they're getting rid of the system, even though they keep talking about it like they are, it sounds like they're just making the actual spellslots more flexible. What I don't get, is the example that they used, the wizard prepared Magic Missile as an At Will spell and spell as a Per Day spell and implied Spell was more powerful... after 4th level I found sleep to be useless most of the time because of it's limit.
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What I don't get, is the example that they used, the wizard prepared Magic Missile as an At Will spell and spell as a Per Day spell and implied Spell was more powerful... after 4th level I found Sleep to be useless most of the time because of it's limit.
Sleep's kind of an 'all or nothing' spell, one that can end an entire encounter with a single cast. I could see them considering that something excessive that they wouldn't want a spellcaster being able to do often, but still want to keep in for those times when the Wizard pulls it out and saves the day to much cheering and throwing of little pickles.
I suspect, given the flavor they are going for, that spells will no longer have persnickety and often inconsistent limits that make them utterly useless past a certain level (Sleep and Color Spray being two such examples). Limiting their use, and softening their ability to trivialize an encounter would allow the designers to let them continue to scale up. The HD limit of Sleep (Color Spray, Hypnotic Pattern, etc) are artefacts of the old, old days and really never served a balance function, so much as resulting in them being unbalanced for a very short time...
Magic Missile is just 'damage.' It's the same as having a Reserve Feat or playing a Warlock. Pew, pew, pew, phear my lazors! Much easier to balance around, since the Fighter will also be pumping out the damage per round.
And after Second Darkness, the 4 iconics we provide at the back will be different combinations of the ones we already have.
Everything was going so well until I read that. For what it counts, I really like the PC's a real breathing characters in the setting. For my purposes, folks like Seoni and Valeros are bound to become the interesting background characters that make every roleplaying setting fun. They're like Raistlin and the guys from Dragonlance, or Blackstaff, Midnight and Elminster from Forgotten Realms. Seeing them get periodically stripped of their levels and retreaded is just sad. I'd almost prefer there were just generic "character templates" with no names or backgrounds to the idea that folks that I love are going to get yanked from their established histories and plopped reborn at first level into a new game with a new adventuring group. Argh. For the cost of four bust-style drawings and a blurb of flavor text? Ack. Not thrilled at that prospect AT ALL.
Another question occurred to me though, which is why I return to this post, isn't the PC on the cover of #5, Sins of the Saviors, one of the iconics for the next AP? Isn't that Erzen? Weird that he's showing up in this AP? There a reason for that or is it just a matter of two too many issues to iconics?
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I want to say I think Seelah the Paladin looks awsome! I never wanted to play a paladin before because I saw them as too "know-it-all" and "more-pious-than-thou" but she looks like the kind of paladin that isn't afraid to smite first and ask questions later. Thanks for making me reconsider the palladin!
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For my purposes, folks like Seoni and Valeros are bound to become the interesting background characters that make every roleplaying setting fun. They're like Raistlin and the guys from Dragonlance, or Blackstaff, Midnight and Elminster from Forgotten Realms.
Yeah that's how I feel about them which is why I hope when they start on the Pathfinder fiction, the Iconics get to be the heroes of the tales.
Another question occurred to me though, which is why I return to this post, isn't the PC on the cover of #5, Sins of the Saviors, one of the iconics for the next AP? Isn't that Erzen? Weird that he's showing up in this AP? There a reason for that or is it just a matter of two too many issues to iconics?
More issues then Iconics. We'll see some NPCs on the upcoming covers when they've put all 12 on the covers.
I guess what I'm dreading is in a few AP's from now after Second Darkness and we've got our four pregens, but they end up being retreads of Seoni, Seelah, and some other guys. Yuck. Just let them have their six months in the spotlight and then have them around as featured NPCs in the setting. I'm really not fond of the idea of them being stripped back to first level characters--it's a continuity mess and it makes them feel less like they're a real part of the setting.
I'd suggest either to keep coming up with interesting fun pregens (heck, it's been a great way to get to know the setting) or if that gets too hard, to just have some generic starter templates for a Fighter or a Wizard or whatever.
I'm afraid just having 12 and recycling them is gonna' be a little cheesy.
How about another contest? People get to write up and submit their characters, with background, they way we do for PbP (or just post a link in a particular thread). Before a new adventure path, the good folks at Paizo take their pick for who they want to be the new iconics. The prize - your PC gets to be a star, complete with artistic rendering by a great artist (WAR?)
I think if we're not careful with this contest stuff we're gonna' kill somebody. ;)
Seriously, the guys here at Paizo have been killing themselves pouring in the hours and hours required to do all the contests and stuff they've been doing. I love 'em for it, but they need a vacation from that sort of thing for a while I imagine.
That said, apparently the origin of the iconics we have is more or less the fruit of James sitting in front of a word processor for twenty minutes before the blog entry is due and hammering something out. That's where these big awesome backstories come from. I personally wouldn't even need THAT much work, just the little blurb each character has on the little strip of stats at the end of the book. Likewise we usually get these lavish full body image suitable for the cover. Don't really need that either, just the head and shoulders shot we usually get on the pregen sheet would be fine.
I just really look forward to every six months getting a new window into some of the folks who inhabit Golarion. I just don't think it'll be the same if they start recycling them.
The prize - your PC gets to be a star, complete with artistic rendering by a great artist (WAR?)
You have the money for that?
Give these guys a little breathing room! They've gone from having Dragon & Dungeon cancelled to having not one, but several successful product lines pour out the doors in a little less than a year. As much as I love all the new goodies coming out, I'd rather not have the creators burn out because of it.
Wow, it was just a thought. Not quite the response I was expecting . . .
Seriously, the guys here at Paizo have been killing themselves pouring in the hours and hours required to do all the contests and stuff they've been doing. I love 'em for it, but they need a vacation from that sort of thing for a while I imagine.
So, basically, you think running a contest for someone else to create new iconics (my suggestion) is more demanding than creating new ones themselves, which is what you want, correct?
The prize - your PC gets to be a star, complete with artistic rendering by a great artist (WAR?)You have the money for that?
Give these guys a little breathing room! They've gone from having Dragon & Dungeon cancelled to having not one, but several successful product lines pour out the doors in a little less than a year. As much as I love all the new goodies coming out, I'd rather not have the creators burn out because of it.
I'm not sure if you misunderstand me, but the idea was that if your PC gets picked to be an iconic, the art would be the illustrations for the adventure path. Unless they are really going to recycle iconics, and their art, they have to pay for new stuff anyway, right?
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Creative Director
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So, basically, you think running a contest for someone else to create new iconics (my suggestion) is more demanding than creating new ones themselves, which is what you want, correct?
Yes. A contest would be FAR more demanding and would take up FAR more time on our part to handle than the way we're handling the iconics now. Also, we know what we want for Golarion, and opening that up to the world isn't the best way to develop a world; we need to control the look and feel of these characters since they have to represent people and nations and parts of our world that we haven't yet made public in lots of cases.
Taking the time to look through what would probably be several hundred descriptions and narrowing that down to one isn't something that the Pathfinder staff has the time to do at this point. A contest to "Get your character on the cover of Pathfinder" is a cool idea, certainly, but it's not one we have time to do right now, nor is it one we want to consider until we've got Pathfinder more established than it currently is.
Yes. A contest would be FAR more demanding and would take up FAR more time on our part to handle than the way we're handling the iconics now.
Alright, that answers that. Please pardon any snarkiness. I just felt like I was getting jumped for just throwing out an idea, in part by someone who was basically saying I was being too demanding after they devoted numerous posts on how they really, really expected new iconics each path. ; )
Ah, the joys of communicating through written text without the nuances of facial expression and vocal tone.
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Billzabub, you might also be interested to know that Wayne Reynolds gets commissioned to do the art for the Iconics and games comes up with their background 15 minutes before the Iconic background is due.. or at least that's what he's said.
So basically the only one working hard on the iconics is the Wayne. ;)
I had a feeling the halfling would get the bard since we've got a rogue that's an elf... it's the only other class that makes sense for the little guy.
Druid!
Being small doesn't matter if you can turn into a big large bear.
As for the 12th, I'll repeat my idea of coming up with a base class noble and have the 12th be one of those. Maybe an elf noble whose family used to be something in the old capital, before whatever happened happened.
My idea for that noble class: Take some upbringing (with the knowing how to delegate stuff and order people around) and education, add one part connections/influence, and season with a rake's fighting style to taste.
You'd have young (or not so young) fops who learned fencing at the most expensive academies with the most expensive masters, had personal tutors for history, business, and manners, know enough lords and ladies and have enough redeemable favours and bribe-money ready to deal with any number of inconveniences, and on top of that they have been waited upon by servants their whole life and are absolutely used to giving orders.
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So basically the only one working hard on the iconics is the Wayne. ;)You say that as if taking 4 hours to come up with a name is easy... ;)
(For the record, it is easy. It's just time-consuming.)
Yes but James said it he'd come up with backgrounds like 15 minutes before they were due. Now I admit he probably was joking, but if it's even close to true, then then I can't imagine something being simpler or easier.
As for names... names are the hardest part for anything.
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Creative Director
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So basically the only one working hard on the iconics is the Wayne. ;)You say that as if taking 4 hours to come up with a name is easy... ;)
(For the record, it is easy. It's just time-consuming.)
Yes but James said it he'd come up with backgrounds like 15 minutes before they were due. Now I admit he probably was joking, but if it's even close to true, then then I can't imagine something being simpler or easier.
As for names... names are the hardest part for anything.
There probably was a bit of exaggeration there... since I kind of know what each iconic's personality is like from the moment we write up a description for Wayne to paint, and over the next several months more stuff about the iconic is always bumping around in my mind, so that by the time it comes time to write their "Meet the Iconics" entry... a lot of the concept stuff's done.
Sorry, Billzabub. No harm meant. I figured it was a well meaning request, but yeah there's a lot of talk about how draining all the contests are. Mostly I just wanted to acknowledge all their hard work with things like Red Raven and Superstar. Anyway sorry if it felt like I came down hard on you. Really didn't mean any venom in it at all. Sorry.
Likewise sorry if my request will be harder to impliment. I certainly am not looking to contribute to everyone's stress. I know how hard you all work. I'm just...y'know, REALLY into continuity stuff. That's just my thing. That said, I always really appreciate the new iconics as they come up, and am always super excited to read the writeups on the blog. I'd love to see that keep going forever, but hey whatever you all can do for me is great. You all do awesome work.
Names aren't hard at all. Pick somebody, spell their name backwards, presto! I look forward to new iconics Sbocaj Semaj, Anomkire, and Rotracm the Sage.
Names aren't hard at all. Pick somebody, spell their name backwards, presto! I look forward to new iconics Sbocaj Semaj, Anomkire, and Rotracm the Sage.
Rotracm sounds evil. The runelord of gluttony (which is probably a high-level lich necromancer) should have a name like that.
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As for the 12th, I'll repeat my idea of coming up with a base class noble and have the 12th be one of those. Maybe an elf noble whose family used to be something in the old capital, before whatever happened happened.My idea for that noble class: Take some upbringing (with the knowing how to delegate stuff and order people around) and education, add one part connections/influence, and season with a rake's fighting style to taste.
You'd have young (or not so young) fops who learned fencing at the most expensive academies with the most expensive masters, had personal tutors for history, business, and manners, know enough lords and ladies and have enough redeemable favours and bribe-money ready to deal with any number of inconveniences, and on top of that they have been waited upon by servants their whole life and are absolutely used to giving orders.
A custom class has the drawback that you also have to fit the mechanics into each product that contains that character. To justify the extra length that character gets, he should be important to the plot of the module or AP. A star and supporting cast works better in movies; parties should be more like an ensemble cast. Also, will this new class be useful and general enough to be used every third module, on average? (4 slots/12 iconics = 1 in 3) Because if the answer to that question is "no," it doesn't justify the art expense. This last point is why my second-choice of something psionic is unlikely to make the cut. (I'd like another cleric, one more into spells, like one of Nethys, since Kyra is somewhat melee oriented.) Lastly, would you be happy with this custom class in each of the 6 or so adventures in an AP? Would having this class instead of one of the stock classes require an adventure to be much changed? Because an AP needs some variety in the types of adventures and has word count limits, the answers have to be respectively, "yes" and "no."
Let's consider a hypothetical noble, because it's a good role that the stock classes don't cover very well. In RotR, he'd be easy to fit into BO and HMM. He'd fit in well, and his abilities would see some, but not too much, use. In TSM, the DM would probably need to expand the Magnimar part, but the noble could really shine, like the cleric does in the first half. Given the expected ending to HMM, however, you might need to make some major changes to FSG: by that point the noble might try to raise his own army to solve the module, or perhaps flits around the region trying to rally allies and create a strong defense. But in SotS and SXS, what good are this noble's high-level abilities going to be? This hypothetical noble has some good combat abilities, some good skills, and some ability to run organizations. Depending on the other 3 in the party, You'd probably rather play something other than the noble in those 2. Maybe not if your high level powers meant you also brought a useful cohort to the party, but that takes up even more space to print and is not a sure thing.In CotCT, a noble would probably be really useful. But how do you manage to keep him from stealing the scene in every adventure except maybe Skeletons of Scarwall?
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As for the 12th, I'll repeat my idea of coming up with a base class noble and have the 12th be one of those. Maybe an elf noble whose family used to be something in the old capital, before whatever happened happened.
Alderac had an extremely solid OGL courtier class that would have worked beautifully for this - except, of course, that it's 3.0 edition.
Alderac had an extremely solid OGL courtier class that would have worked beautifully for this - except, of course, that it's 3.0 edition.
Three-oo, shmee-oo.
I like the Rokugan courtier, but he's completely useless in a fight, something that doesn't work too well in a normal D&D game - and whenever I think of a noble adventurer, I think at least some fencing action, Dashing Swordsmen style.
And unless they go completely bonkers with class abilities, with stuff that neads novels to describe properly, it shouldn't be hard to put in the descriptions into NPC stat blocks or descriptions for pre-made characters - not any more than spellcasters' spells take up some space.
And I'd say that such a class could be useful. Not the best class for a dungeon crawl, but the same is true for several core classes already. And for urban adventures, he'd be great.
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A Rokugan courtier in a fight normally looks his opponent in the eye and tells him that seppuku really hurts. That works quite well in the setting of Rokugan, but has less impact in a Western style game with orcs and ogres. But he can work quite well in an urban game, especially if it involves politican wheeling and dealing.
Still, a courtier's a courtier. Sure, courtiers are nobles in Rokugan, but nobles aren't necessarily courtiers. Samurai are nobles, too.
The picture I have in mind is somewhere between: Not a full-blood warrior, but not someone who has his short sword just to show everyone that he has noble blood.
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Still, a courtier's a courtier. Sure, courtiers are nobles in Rokugan, but nobles aren't necessarily courtiers. Samurai are nobles, too.
The picture I have in mind is somewhere between: Not a full-blood warrior, but not someone who has his short sword just to show everyone that he has noble blood.
For the record, the Alderac courtier also appeared in Swashbuckling Adventures, so it need not be limited to Rokugan - though I fully admit it was no better in a fight there.
Come to think of it, though, if you stipulated that noble training included minor tutoring in the arcane arts, and made sure to stick to Perform (oratory), you could make a totally servicable noble class out of the bard...
...though that wouldn't really help with what this thread is about.
Perhaps the 12th could be something as simple as a variant fighter. For example, below is an OGL swashbuckler (based on the thug in the SRD):
Fighter Variant: Swashbuckler
The swashbuckler is a duellist and rake, one who is adept with both a sharp sword and sharp wits. He has most of the fighter's strengths, along with an aptitude for social interaction. He concentrates on mobility and canny use of tactics and terrain to defeat his opponents, rather than heavy weapons and armor.
Swashbucklers tend to neutral or chaotic alignments.
Class Skills
Add the following skills to the fighter's class list- Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Tumble. The swashbuckler gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level).
Class Features
The swashbucker has all of the standard fighter's class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Swashbucklers are proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armor, and bucklers.
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, swashbucklers must choose either Combat Expertise or Weapon Finesse as a their bonus feat. Remove Power Attack (and feats in the Power Attack feat chain) from the list of bonus feats available to swashbucklers.
BTW, feel free to use this variant in CotCT. ;-)