I've looked through my books, but I can't seem to find a static way of determining a new creature's level adjustment.
It's a small, bipedal dragon (CR 3) that uses tremorsense and smell to locate prey. It has no eyes, ears, arms, or wings. I don't know what its preferred class would be yet, but it hunts using pack tactics and sets up long range ambushes.
If needed, I can post the stat block.
-Kurocyn
There isn't a static way, near as I know. :( It's all guesswork, as far as I can tell. What's the HD of the creature?
Since you're talking about LA, can I presume someone will be playing one of these? If so, you can try using the rules from Savage Species, but be warned: you'll need to consider things carefully.
I've looked through my books, but I can't seem to find a static way of determining a new creature's level adjustment.
It's a small, bipedal dragon (CR 3) that uses tremorsense and smell to locate prey. It has no eyes, ears, arms, or wings. I don't know what its preferred class would be yet, but it hunts using pack tactics and sets up long range ambushes.
If needed, I can post the stat block.
-Kurocyn
There is no static method. Savage Species provides some guidelines, but the process is more art than science.
Go ahead and post the stat block. I bet you get tons of worthwhile answers.
I should have thought to check the Savage Species... Darn.
Actually, I'm planning on using it. Yes, it's my own creature, but the rest of my group has seen the creature and likes it. Probably won't be an issue with anyone...
Here's the stat block...
Name: Slag Dragon CR 3
Neutral; Small; Dragon
Init: +2; Senses: tremorsense 30', blindsight 15', scent
Languages: Draconic
----
AC: 18 (+1 Size, +2 Dex, +5 Natural) touch 13, flat-footed 16
Hit Dice: 3D12 + 12 (32 HP)
Immune: Immune to sonic and gaze attacks, as well as any ability or effect that requires hearing or sight as well as magical sleep and paralysis effects
Resist: resistance to fire 10; SR: n/a
Fort: +8, Ref: +6, Will: +5
Weakness: Strong odors (ex - a Troglodyte's stench) negate its scent and blindsight for 3D6 rounds, after which it is immune to the same odor for 24 hours
----
Speed: 30'
Melee: Bite +3 (1D6/x2)
Ranged: -
Base Atk: +4; Grp: +0
Atk Options: n/a
Special Actions: Slag
Combat Gear: n/a
----
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ: Extend tremorsense
Feats: Track, Ability focus: Slag (bonus feat)
Skills: +5 Hide (+9 in tall grass), +5 Jump, +5 Move silently, +5 survival
Possessions: n/a
Environment: Temperate any (usually grasslands)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-8)
----
Slag - The creature bites into the soil, reels back filling it's gullet with fire, and launches the superheated missile forward. Ranged touch attack +7 with a max range of 100' and no increment. If successful, the target takes 1D6 bludgeoning damage, 2D6 fire damage (no save), and must make a DC 18 strength check or be pushed back 5' and knocked prone. If unsuccessful, treat as a splash weapon attack on an adjacent corner dealing 1D6 fire damage over a 5' radius, DC 18 reflex half. Once used, the Slag Dragon must wait 1d4 -1 rounds before using its slag again.
Extend tremorsense - As a move action, a Slag Dragon may drive it's claws into the ground, giving it tremorsense 120' until it makes an adjustment or moves from that spot.
----
Hook n/a
I made this over a year ago, but lately I've been generating alot of new characters for later use and I thought that this could be fun.
Just thought about it but in addition to a level adjustment, I'll need racial ability mods.
-Kurocyn
Ability modifiers are Dex +4, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -6.
With its immunities and HD, I'm thinkin' about an LA of +2 or +3, but I'm curious to hear what others have to say.
Ability modifiers are Dex +4, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -6.
With its immunities and HD, I'm thinkin' about an LA of +2 or +3, but I'm curious to hear what others have to say.
+2 or +3? yeah, that sounds about right.
A couple of nitpicks: With 3 HD, it's base attack should be +3 and it gains 2 racial feats so the Ability Focus feat doesn't need to be a bonus.
Overall I'd say this package is worth +3, maybe even +4.
Page 299 of the Monster Manual says that for the Atk bonus, you take (target CR x 1.5) +2 for a melee oriented monster or (target CR x 1.5)-1 for a special attack focused monster. I used the latter.
(3 x 1.5)-1 = 3.5. I rounded it up to +4. Had I used the first formula, its bonus would be +7 (rounded the same way).
As for its feats, I forgot to list Scent feat.
A +2 or +3 LA sounds good to me though. Are there any other factors which might increase it? What do you think its favored class be?
-Kurocyn
*edit* How did you figure those ability mods, Lilith? They seem alright. I'm just curious...
|
Massively enhanced senses +1
Immunities +1
Breath weapon +1 (at least, the knockback might make it a +2)
Characteristics +2
The minor weaknesses are compensated for by the d12 HD.
I see it as LA +5, ECL 8 without character levels.
FWIW, penalties to characteristics are generally less of a problem than bonuses are a benefit, because players will tend to pick classes that work with strengths and limit weaknesses.
As to favored class: I think Fighter.
For favored class I'd go with rogue, or better scout if you have the Complete Adventurer.
Page 299 of the Monster Manual says that for the Atk bonus, you take (target CR x 1.5) +2 for a melee oriented monster or (target CR x 1.5)-1 for a special attack focused monster. I used the latter.
Well that's fine; I just pointed it out because by RAW a creature with the dragon type has a BAB equal to its HD.
*edit* How did you figure those ability mods, Lilith? They seem alright. I'm just curious...
If it's an even score, subtract 10. If it's an odd score, subtract 11.
A +5 LA? Wow... What do you mean by Characteristics, Doug?
Rouge seems to fit more than fighter or scout, I think.
-Kurocyn
Out of curiousity, why does a creature that can't hear (or see... so no reading lips) at all need language? This fact alone would make it almost unplayable as I can't think of how this thing would communicate unless it had telepathy of some kind from a class...
Sean Mahoney
Out of curiousity, why does a creature that can't hear (or see... so no reading lips) at all need language? This fact alone would make it almost unplayable as I can't think of how this thing would communicate unless it had telepathy of some kind from a class...
I agree here. It was the first thing I noticed, too: This thing is deaf and blind, which are the two most important senses for humans. It will be very hard roleplaying one of those.
How do they communicate? How do others communicate with them?
Plus, without arms or anything like it, how do they interact with the world?
And the low int means that even if it can communicate with others, it will be very dumb, probably not able to grasp complex ideas.
My suggestion for this creature's LA would be: - (meaning it's not a playable race).
|
|
A +5 LA? Wow... What do you mean by Characteristics, Doug?
Rouge seems to fit more than fighter or scout, I think.
-Kurocyn
Sorry, Ability modifications. (IME, most RPGs refer to these as characteristics.) The net is plus 2, but a +4 and a +8 are more of an advantage than a -6 and a -6 are a penalty, especially since the bonuses are physical and penalties mental. When you choose a class that doesn't much care about mental stats (except the one stat that affects saving throws, which isn't reduced), this is really important.
With a -6 CHA, wouldn't rouge for this creature be like putting lipstick on a pig? 8-)
Thematically, I can't see any caster class; Rogue is out because of the lack of arms and eyes. Of the basic classes, that leaves Fighter and Barbarian. I see this more as a Fighter, because its primary weapon is a ranged weapon. I suppose you could use a non-casting Ranger as the favored class, too.
Oh, and I wouldn't allow this as a player race and would be very hesitant to allow it as a cohort.
+3 LA in my book too.
Yea, Drow are a +2 and this is definitely better then a drow. I vote +3.
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 6
Ability modifiers are Dex +4, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -6.
I'm not so sure I agree. It might be an array. What book is the slag dragon from?
It's not from a book, DMcCoy. I created the Slag Dragon...
They communicate between each other by tapping their claws on the ground, and through a primative form of Draconic, primarily made up of growls.
Though they cannot hear like most creatures do, thier sensory claws do pick up the faint vibrations from sounds, it just takes time to figure out what it's "hearing."
Smarter, more traveled Slag Dragons can eventually pick up common. Their vocabulary is limited to what they've "heard." And their throats aren't meant to vocalize our words, so most attempts to speak sound like growls and barks.
-Kurocyn
|
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 6Ability modifiers are Dex +4, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -6.I'm not so sure I agree. It might be an array. What book is the slag dragon from?
it's not its his own creation:
Actually, I'm planning on using it. Yes, it's my own creature, but the rest of my group has seen the creature and likes it. Probably won't be an issue with anyone...
They communicate between each other by tapping their claws on the ground, and through a primative form of Draconic, primarily made up of growls.
Though they cannot hear like most creatures do, thier sensory claws do pick up the faint vibrations from sounds, it just takes time to figure out what it's "hearing."
Smarter, more traveled Slag Dragons can eventually pick up common. Their vocabulary is limited to what they've "heard." And their throats aren't meant to vocalize our words, so most attempts to speak sound like growls and barks.
This kind of feels like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. That is to say that you are getting the bonus of being immune to anything that would affect you if you have hearing but you can still hear the things you want to hear... I just don't buy that, best of both worlds.
Sean Mahoney
(Note: If this is just unhelpful for me to point this out, just let me know and I will drop it. If it is a forgone conclusion for your game and you don't want my opinion on this part it is perfectly understandable)
I understand what you're saying, Sean Mahoney, but for them to "hear" something, it has to be right next to them. They can't make listen checks or otherwise detect something by sound.
Your points are valid, it's just that I don't plan on abusing its abilities or anything. I just think it'll be a fun role-play.
My reasons for thinking Rogue, Doug, are how they normally attack: from an ambush. Thus, a Rogue's sneak attack. The other abilities/benifits of a rogue don't quite make sense however. Trapfinding, their skill selection, etc...
Fighter does seem to be the best option now.
Also, I understand why you wouldn't allow this, but I intend for this to be a role-play based PC.
-Kurocyn
|
|
Also, I understand why you wouldn't allow this, but I intend for this to be a role-play based PC.
-Kurocyn
Heh, that's actually why I wouldn't allow it. 8-) I've made the mistake of both playing and GMing for characters with serious sensory and communication problems before. I found it to be problematic from both sides of the screen and I won't do it again.
I don't think it's unbalanced with the right LA; I just think it's too much trouble to be interesting. I hope your experience is different; the fact that I don't want to deal with it is no guarantee that you'll have a similar experience.
Just some notes from my "Copiously Ridiculously Expansive Level Adjustment Experiences (tm)".
Dragon hit die are by far the best hit die in the game, with outsider hit die being the only close runner up. Consider this:
Humanoid hit die (lizardman, etc): d8, Average base attack, 2 skill points per hd, 1 good save (SRD lists reflex as default, but whatever).
Dragon hit die: d12, Full base attack, 6 skill points, all good saves.
So, barbarian hp and base attack, bard skill points, and monk saves. Consider that with gestalt rules you would be hard pressed to make a combination that can equal this? No downside for the dragon hd. Now consider that the default dragon type also comes with darkvision 60', low light vision, and sleep and paralysis immunity. Just having more than 1 dragon hd (so it isnt replaced by a class hd) is almost worth a level adjustment of its own. Sure, your spellcasting is gimped by 3 levels, but check out the +3 base attack, 3d12 hp, nice skill points, and +3 to all saves!
Having said that, what else is there. Sonic immunity (which I will comment more on later), immunity to sight and sound based effects, tremorsense, natural armor, natural attack, ranged dual-damage special attack with a chance of a "status effect" and an overall positive ability mod set with a big boost to Con.
K, here we go, play by play, in a Spoiler button to save space.
Immunity to sight and sound effects: Sight makes sense, we have the grimlock and a bunch of other sightless critters. Sound is also your call, but it will put serious crimps on party interaction (from experience, deaf PCs actually have it harder than blind ones, if your being at all realistic about communicating in combat.). Also, if it is deaf, even if naturally, there is nothing in the rules that indicates a racially deaf creature doesn't suffer from the deafness penalties (chance to miscast spells and initiative penalty).
Immunity to sonic: This is a nitpick for me, due to some wierd player hijinks back in the day. Just because you can't hear, does not make you immune to sonic damage. Deaf people can have their organs juiced by close proximity to a sonic boom just like anyone else. Consider if immunity to sonic damager makes sense for the critter via its "fantasy-biology", or if you're applying what you feel the benefits of deafness are. Not trying to be hard on you, but like I said, I had a.... unpleasant player/PC experience cause of this.
Tremorsense: Good, but not great. Anything that flies is invisible to you, all the time. Better than darkvision? Yeah. Better than blindsense? Not really. Better than blindsight? Hell no.
Natural armor +5: Yeah, thats worth a +1 level adjustment right there. Consider how much an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 costs, and it will stack with that.
1 natural attack: No biggie, a perk, but not a shining star of awesome.
Breath weapon: Even if the damage is limited to a cap of 3d6, the ranged touch is nice, the dual damage (bludgeoning/fire) is a plus, and the chance for knockback is even better. This breath weapon will not suffer from diminishing returns as badly at higher level, due to the knockback effect. Maybe not worth a full level adjustment, but defnitely in the "half a level" spectrum.
Ability mods: Big boost to con, boost to dex, penalty to int and charisma, boost to wisdom. I look at it this way, if the racial mods on a non-elite monster stat array look almost (not equal or better, but almost) as good as what I can make with a core race on elite array (half orc is what im thinking) then its a really nice set of mods. If I were playing this critter, hands down I would but at least a twelve in Con, and take Roll With It from savage species for sexy DR 2/-. And at level 3 I'd conisder taking Imp. DR from the same book to bring it to DR 4/-.
SUMMARY: Between the HD and abilities, easily a +3, possibly a +4. Remove sonic damage immunity, and I'd be ok with +3.
My reasons for thinking Rogue, Doug, are how they normally attack: from an ambush. Thus, a Rogue's sneak attack. The other abilities/benifits of a rogue don't quite make sense however. Trapfinding, their skill selection, etc...
Oh... I'd like to point out that this poor creature couldn't get sneak attack dice.
Being blind prevents you from hitting the "sweet" spots. (Just like concealment prevents sneak attack).
And since spell casting is, at best, very difficult with these critters...
About your only choice is Fighter for a class. Bard is out, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid are less than ideal (40% spell failure chance due to being blind and deaf), Rogue is nearly worthless...
You have pretty much painted this poor fella right into Fighter alone. You might be able to argue Barbarian or Monk... But that would be a hard sell to me.
LA is like CR. There is no magic equation to tell you what it should be. And for some, like this critter, it would make a really terrible Character, so it doesn't need a level adjustment.
RPG Superstar 2013
|
Well, I'll take the liberty of critiquing your design a bit, and maybe that will help you assess a level adjustment.
I'd never allow any PC with tremor sense, blind sight and scent, unless the campaign had some means of making up for it. I would only allow a monster with those abilities on a unique occasion. You are really pushing the envelope with this stack of sensory abilities and should reconsider. Your PCs might not mind, but your DM should. It ruins the concepts of concealment, invisibility, sneaky hiders, etc. Even burrowers. It's worth at least an adjustment of +2 to be in a party that can essentially never be taken advantage of. Remember that character level and encounter levels are balanced based on expected party and encounter content, not on balancing one PC against another. Also, as a dragon, you have lowlight vision and darkvision 60.
You have some mechanical troubles:
SPEED: 30. Does the dragon fly? It saves you on LA if not, but I wanted to be sure. Flying is a likely +1.
SAVES: fort+7 ref+5 will+4
ATTACK: bite +4 melee (d6, though maybe should only be a d4. Remember during character creation, should you get a strength bonus, the bite deals 1.5*str damage)
BAB: +3 Grp: -1
The slag (Su) ability should be described as a ranged touch attack, but without a number attached. It could change based on class levels, advancement, etc. The listed bonus is wrong anyway, should be +6. Also, slag does too much. It is slowdown, and what some call a swiss army knife. And for CR3, 3d6 is a lot of damage, especially from 100' away. I would change to normal flaming damage: d4(+str) bludgeon and d6 fire. Still good for the CR. The range should be dropped dramatically (I would make it 30 feet and take far shot). Lose the splash and the knockdown ability (note, save DC should be 17 if it's con based, and asking for a strength check is pretty powerful. Consider a character with a 20 strength is knocked over 60% of the time). The thing can't knock you down, it's a chunk of rock spit out by a small, strength 10 creature. This might make the ability less powerful, but it gives you something you can use for an EL. Right now, the EL estimate is cluttered with confusing sets of abilities. Like most good design choices, when you fix something that's broken, you can also improve it in other areas (see the changes in hold person and haste from 3.0 to 3.5 for examples). In this case, by eliminating the knockdown save for slag, you can choose a different feat. Finally, the slag can be reused in d4-1 rounds. So possibly no delay? I kind of like that, just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.
Your skills are really weird: a 3 hd dragon with an Int of 5 nets you 18 total skill points. You have 15 points represented after adjusting for ability modifiers. You haven't added your +4 size bonus to hide checks yet. You have a max rank of 6, so I recommend the last three be in new class skills: listen, search and spot (for a bonus of +3, -2 and +3). You are representing great perceptive abilities, without the perceptive skills being available. I would keep blindsight 15, fire tremorsense and scent, and add three class skills to my repertoire.
While I'm near that subject, I would almost never let aplayer play a character with an Int of 5 or Cha of 6. people say it's fun to play dumb character. Int 8 or 9 is dumb. Lower than that is barely functional in a group setting. You are smarter than my dog, but less able to get along or puzzle something out than my two-year-old. Forever. Cha 6 is pathetically unnoticable. A pet. Not taken seriouslt by other adventurers. You're a dragon, for gods' sakes! You deal 6+ damage from 45 feet away! You have a +9 hide! Your favored class is set up to be ranger, but with three levels of rogue and a decent int score, you are dangerous!
If the slag ability allows you to belch fire with your rocks, you are internally immune to fire. Add the fire subtype to your special qualities instead of fire resistance. Stay away from cold spells.
Even if you don't fire tremorsense, you should definietly axe greater tremorsense. Why root yourself to the spot? And DMs will hate it. What you really want is to dig your claws in while you sleep. Not in my back yard.
Lillith is right about your ability mods. You don't get an array as an entry. You get an array when you become a PC (or just roll), or an important NPC. That makes your customizable ability scores pretty good. You gain at least 3 more than you lose, so that might make for a +1 LA.
By my reckoning, the new and improved slag dragon has an ECL of (3hd+1dragon {includes natural armor, saves, bab}+1abilities+1senses and slag) 6. So your 7th level rogue slag dragon has 35+d6 hp (fair), a +3 BAB (human rogue has +5), an AC of 18 (par for human rogue7), slag replaces a feat nicely (better than some feats), and if you sneak attack at 30, you'll do d4+2d6 (rogue does 4d6?). You have blindsense, are immune to fire, paralysis and sleep, and have a natural weapon. You have great ability scores if you raise Int to 8 (get back 6 skills) and Cha to 9. However, you are outskilled (although if you raise int to 8 and cha to 9, it's not so bad), and have no proficiency in weapons other than your bite. I'd say that's pretty fair. If you like it the way it is and make no other changes, I would recommend a LA of +5, and that your entire party pick up boots of striding and springing as well as combat reflexes and improved trip.
oh yeah. Plus another one if you fly 30 (clumsy or average).
Hope that was helpful.
|
RPG Superstar 2013
|
Oh... I'd like to point out that this poor creature couldn't get sneak attack dice. Being blind prevents you from hitting the "sweet" spots. (Just like concealment prevents sneak attack).
Actually, being blind means everything has concealment from you. It's not like concealment and sneak attack, that's exactly what it is.
But this dragon isn't blind. It has blind sight, and it can be blinded. Not the same thing. In fact, I forgot to mention I would kill the blinding weakness. It isn't a real weakness (only happens in presence of ghasts, trogs, maybe otyughs), so you don't get any ECL credit for it. If the creature really is blind, it is mentioned in the fluff, not the mechanics. I would axe that aspect, too. You weren't really blind to start with, given all the sensory abilities. And you can still sneak attack if you have blindsight.
About your only choice is Fighter for a class. Bard is out, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and Druid are less than ideal (40% spell failure chance due to being blind and deaf), Rogue is nearly worthless...
You have pretty much painted this poor fella right into Fighter alone. You might be able to argue Barbarian or Monk... But that would be a hard sell to me.
The creature's abilities, skill and feat choices clearly indicate a ranger class affinity. And that's good, because in its original form, rogue would be the only way to go with a ranged touch attack dealing 3d6+splash+knockdown from 100' away. Rogue isn't worthless. Rogue is how this guy breaks the game.
But I could see how a few levels of fighter would work. Take advantage of that BAB and strong saves. Add feats to improve its hand to hand scrap, and get it some barding. Sure would suck for skills, though.
But this dragon isn't blind.
It has no eyes, ears, arms, or wings.
I would take that to mean it is blind. And why I feel fighter is the only "real" choice.
I would have gone with Ranger... But you lose so much from the class... Fighting Style isn't useful, Favored Enemy could work - but it is questionable if you would get the damage bonus (DM discretion), Spells are nearly a complete write off, Track is already taken by the race...
Sure, it can still be used. But it isn't a great fit, particularly when you think about it taking a (Seeing Eye?) Wolf as an Animal Companion.
I'll have to look into the concealment issue, seeing as it is blind. No low-light or darkvision because it has no eyes.
Everyone's made good points about it, so I'm just going to go with Fighter for its preferred class. (I'll probably use Fighter levels for the PC anyway)
As for its vulnerability to flying creatures, I saw this when I first created it.
And Black Bard, your point about the immunity to sonic makes sense. I was looking at it from it being deaf. I'll take a look at it and see what I can do.
And from what I've read, I'm going with a +3 LA. Maybe +4, but we'll see...
Thank you all for the input. ^ ^
-Kurocyn
I never got around to checking my books, but I just gave the SRD a look and it says that most of the penalties for being blind and deaf can be overcomed with time. Given that these creatures grow up like this, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they're used to it.
I didn't see the rules for concealment there...
The SRD also says that creatures with tremorsense "automatically sense the location of anything in contact with the ground and in range." Is this enough to attack said "anything?" And, being naturally blind, would the slag dragon have some sort of miss penalty?
If so, would it be possible to improve its tremorsense ability to negate that penalty?
-Kurocyn
As for ECL's there was an online calculator to use as a skeleton. Abilities can be WAY off depending on what they are and the campaign setting. But at least it gives a starting point to look at. (Runs off to Google...)
With the tremor sense ability, it allows you to pin point which square/hex they are in. It doesn't negate the fact the target has total concealment from a blind attacker (if they are outside your blindsight range). You are attacking the square the creature is in, you don't know how tall, how wide or the shape of the creature. It is like scent in that respect - it just doesn't take an action to do. Blindsight (if I remember correctly) is the only "blind" ability that allows you to actually see the target without concealment as ancientsensei stated. However it also means, flying invisible creatures are seen as well as tons of other wonky things you probably won't want done that might not come up off the top of your head. Just becareful if you give out the ability to a PC.
As for improved tremorsense, nothing I can recall off the top of my head. However you could give it a racial bonus feat - Blind-fighting. That way you could reroll misses due to concealment taking it down from a flat 50% miss every attack. Also if you are going to be relying on an AOE attack most of the time, the 50% miss doesn't mean a thing. You are going to be able to place the attack in that square, as an AOE that is all you need to do. It only comes into play on "targeted" abilities, melee, ranged touch attack, etc. Maybe make the slag ability a line effect instead of targeted ranged touch attack with some of the fixes proposed earlier.
|
RPG Superstar 2013
|
Not having eyes doesn't make you blind. Not being able to see makes you blind. Having blindsight means you automatically detect corporeal things within range, and concealment does not apply to you.
There's no need to improve the concealment, and such a beast never suffers a miss chance from invisibility, displacement, fog, rose-colored glasses, or any other source termed concealment, unless it's incorporeal.
Hopefully you'll take this with a sense of humor, but RTFM. : ]
Ooh..I think there has been mention of both blindsight and blindsense. Blindsense is not as good, and still allows concealment for things that can't be seen. But I don't recommend that. In the model I edited as an example, I intended blindsight - the good one. I hope that's the one I said.