RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Man, like,....my dad's so weird.Yah. That T-shirt that says "Half-Orc. Because charisma doesn't matter" isn't gonna make any sense now.How are they finta make half orcs? Don't they need to have -2 to charisma, much less int and now all them races get nothing but bonuses?
My wife, son, and I are walking through a shopping mall and a guy comes by wearing that shirt. My son points at the shirt and says "Mom, that's what a half-orc looks like". My wife thinks he's pointing at the man and says "TB it's not polite to point!!".
hehehe
Yah. That T-shirt that says "Half-Orc. Because charisma doesn't matter" isn't gonna make any sense now.
How 'bout this: "WotC marketing staff. Because charisma doesn't matter"
I don't see how this is different from when new content first appeared in Dragon and was later re-published in book form.Dragon magazine had other useful content and was available in the wonderful lost format that is print.
By leaving out classic elements and then including those elements as DDI material, it seems to me that WotC is intentionally trying to dangle a carrot in front of the reluctant many who don't want to subscribe to DDI BUT want classic content that in their 4th edition games.
You don't need DDI but, if you want the gnome, half-orc, druid, etc that was intentionally left out of the PHB, you'll want it more than you otherwise would.
WotC owes me nothing because they have lost me and the dozen guys I game with as customers because they have made choices that have alienated us. I've heard the same story from the gamers my brother knows and/or games with and, I suspect, that there will be more people walking away from D&D than WotC expected.
My thoughts exactly. A lot of the customers at my local hobby shop are already telling the owner they're not bothering with 4th Edition, so he shouldn't really bother shelving it. The owner likes few of what 4E is offering, hates what they did to the Forgotten Realms, and hates how WotC is marketing the game. If anything, he'll only purchase the 3 core books for himself and his workers to look over and he'll special order if anyone really is serious about 4E. But no one is, heck, many are still interested in what 3.5E books he has on the shelves (I've helped him sell quite a few by suggesting to the customers there what is best to purchase).
Allow me to make things clear to those who can't seem to understand why people are angry with the half-orc idea WotC is doing.
First off, it's bad enough so much lore and tradition is being thrown out the window in order to make the game play in a manner that befits World of Warcraft gamers. There was nothing wrong with 3rd Edition---let me rephrase that, there was nothing wrong with DUNGEONS&DRAGONS itself for them to warp it into what it's becoming.
Bottomline, WotC is milking D&D. No half-orcs in the PHB, but pay $10 fee and you can get access to it online. What if you don't have the Internet? What if you're totally against poking your credit card information online? What if you don't even freaking know about DDI in the first place? Seriously, you think THAT logo they have on the back of the books will really catch anyone's attention, especially the "target audience" they want to attract? The same audience that doesn't care about reading, math, and too many rules? They just want to jump into a game, have fun, jump out and move on to something newer?
Good luck, WotC. You'll need it.
The half-orc is a part of D&D mythology, whether introduced as a race or a monster. What if you really want to get into 4th Edition, and what if you really need the half-orc in your games, not for character or NPC creation, but for storyline as well? What do you tell your PCs?
"Well, until PHB 2 arrives next year, you guys won't bet bumping into or making any half-orcs...they'll just suddenly phase in when I get their stats. But they're still in my world!"
Again, consistency. Which 4th Edition has NONE of.
As I have quoted a million times before: You can port your 1E to 2E or 3E, you can easily port your 2E to 3E, you can port it all just as easily to 3.5E (with a hell of a lot cleaner and extra options, too boot!), but you can NEVER port anything over to 4th Edition thanks to its destruction of original designs, original lore, original history, original tradition, and, well, the sheer ORIGINALITY of D&D as a whole.
It's gone. Kiss your old games goodbye, according to WotC, you wasted your time on such crappy editions and 4E will be the best ever, forever and ever, they say.
Until they announce 5th Edition in about 5 years, of course. ;)
Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?Right here, from the WOTC boards:
Its mainly because the minority here that hates 4th Edition so much before even seeing the product arent catering to THEM. Their group (or even that singular person). In my opinion, they probably gathered some data from talking with people, doing surveys, browsing the messageboards, etc, to get a general idea of what was most liked, most hated, and stuff that could use some work.
could you do us all a favor and stop with the inflammatory posts? It wouldn't be ok for me to post that there is a minority here who thinks Wotc eats lead and passes gold. Especially posters whose names may resemble the holy handgrenade of _______ ..... (wouldn't that be rude? luckily, I would never make such an assertion.)
It appears to me lately that what we have on these boards is that a small group of 4ed supporters who feel free to lambaste or ridicule anti-4ed posters, and yet react with outrage when the same treatment is turned onto them.
Antioch, you need to understand that many of us that oppose 4ed may post in a fashion that you dislike, but that does not imply, less knowledge, less intellect, or less right to state our opinion.
Lets see, I didnt imply that Wizards can turn lead to gold through...any means, I dont know what my name has to do with anything (but I do know that it didnt originate from a Monty Python production), and the only time I think implied a stupid instance was about not getting half-orc stats for free (not that the poster was stupid, just that the idea was).
Of course, I also have the right to state my own opinions. :-D
Razz,
Any serious shop owner that does not stock 4E is going to miss out on a serious chunck of sales - especially given the details on the OGL.
you do work Wotc...;)
btw I have three FLGS that I go to and none of them are getting 4th edition. Why? because they still have a slew of 1st,2nd,3rd and 3.5 collecting dust on the shelves, each shop does huge on card game events and DDM games and two of the shops sell comics books and like merchandise.|
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you do work Wotc...;)Razz,
Any serious shop owner that does not stock 4E is going to miss out on a serious chunck of sales - especially given the details on the OGL.
Nah. But I was one of the stunned grognards that watched 2E sell out in with record sales. I watched 3E move rapidly out the door - this time I was buying into it.
4E will sell no matter what any of us think or feel about it.
4E will sell no matter what any of us think or feel about it.
That has yet to happen. Who knows? But modules that are $29.99 a pop are not going to fly off the shelf, when X-box and Playstations(Games) prices continue to drop, not to many kids/teenagers are rakin in big bucks to slap down on a book with very little replay value. "What should I get ShadowCrack Keep or Assassin's Creed"...
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That has yet to happen. Who knows? But modules that are $29.99 a pop are not going to fly off the shelf, when X-box and Playstations(Games) prices continue to drop, not to many kids/teenagers are rakin in big bucks to slap down on a book with very little replay value.4E will sell no matter what any of us think or feel about it.
Kids are pretty free with mommy and daddy's money.
Kids are pretty free with mommy and daddy's money.
Some spoiled brats are free with mommy and daddy's money and if the parents are there and they are victums of Wotc Machination=(A crafty scheme or cunning design for the accomplishment of a sinister end.) The parents will reply "How bout a X-box game, I got D&D at home in a box in the attic/basement".
they are victums of Wotc MachinationAh, Children of the Spurned. Innocents turned into Console Zombies by the anger their parents feel for a game company.
My son plays D&D 3.5 with me.. he is starting up a game with his buddies soon...he hardly ever plays video games. Yes my dig at Wotc is more of a humorous shot/slap etc...
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My son plays D&D 3.5 with me.. he is starting up a game with his buddies soon...he hardly ever plays video games. Yes my dig at Wotc is more of a humorous shot/slap etc...they are victums of Wotc MachinationAh, Children of the Spurned. Innocents turned into Console Zombies by the anger their parents feel for a game company.
Yeah, same with mine on the Console Zombies.
Oddly, both of my kids completely ignore our game system (not that I'm complaining). They're very into board games though.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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My son plays D&D 3.5 with me.. he is starting up a game with his buddies soon...he hardly ever plays video games. Yes my dig at Wotc is more of a humorous shot/slap etc...they are victums of Wotc MachinationAh, Children of the Spurned. Innocents turned into Console Zombies by the anger their parents feel for a game company.
Yes, my son as well. He's vehemently opposed to 4e unless Greyhawk is given its due. I'm not that interested in it but will wait and see.
How does Tobus Neth JR. feel about 4e?
Not to sound like a complete unethical sob...Too late - stealing is stealing.
And WotC stole the soul of a wonderful hobby from me, because if I ever do decide to try out 4E with my players, I sure as hell am not spending another $2000, that's for damn sure.
Razz,
Any serious shop owner that does not stock 4E is going to miss out on a serious chunck of sales - especially given the details on the OGL.
Did you read my last post? Many, most of them regulars, at my local hobby shop REFUSE to buy into 4th Edition. They're all enjoying 3.5E too much (some still play 2E, in fact) and they're tired of WotC's machinations and destruction of the game.
It has gotten to the point where they call WotC Nazis (because it seems that's how they are with D&D and it also rhymes, since they phoenetically say WotC).
In other words, the books will not sell at his shop if most of the customers refuse to even bother with 4th Edition. It'd be a complete waste.
It has gotten to the point where they call WotC Nazis (because it seems that's how they are with D&D and it also rhymes, since they phoenetically say WotC).
Razz, no disrespect, but do you yourself work for WOTC?
The way you froth at the mouth and throw around words like "Nazi", you're really not making 3.5 players look good. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if people read your posts and think to themselves "Man, if that's the company I'll be keeping if I stay with 3.5 I might as well go and switch to 4.0."Honestly, if you really like 3.5, and if you want others to keep playing that system, you're really not doing yourself any favors. I myself have no desire to switch to 4.0 but you've halfway convinced me to give it a chance.
You might wanna dial it down a notch.
How does Tobus Neth JR. feel about 4e?
My grognards views/style have rubbed off on him.
So it starts.
So much for the "DDI isn't necessary" part.
I really doubt that the half-orc will be the only classic part of D&D that will end up there.
And while you sure can steal this stuff, ethical or not (isn't alignment abolished in 4e? They're promoting dealing with the devil as a cool thing. I think we all agree that virtual theft is a lot more harmless than supporting the Adversary, so they can't even complain ;-)), there's something worse to consider:
I'm quite sure this stuff won't end up on the SRD. That means that they will not be available for Paizo or Nocromancer games. Of course, they will probably be able to make their own versions of half-orcs - unless Wizards tries to argue that it's closed IP and may not be copied.
I think this has changed my opinion about 4e from "only if Paizo supports it" to "not even if Paizo supports it".
This seems a bit disingenuous. Aren't they having to retcon various elements of FR to make it 4/e compatible -- regardless of what earlier editions did?
They don't retcon anything. They kill off races, deities and nations left and right to force FR into 4e's baking-tin
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He's vehemently opposed to 4e unless Greyhawk is given its due.
Not trying to take anything from Paizo, but I don't really think that Greyhawk received its due in 3e.
And if what they've done to the Forgotten Realms is any indication, you should feel lucky that WotC have not done anything with Greyhawk for 4e.
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He's vehemently opposed to 4e unless Greyhawk is given its due.Not trying to take anything from Paizo, but I don't really think that Greyhawk received its due in 3e.And if what they've done to the Forgotten Realms is any indication, you should feel lucky that WotC have not done anything with Greyhawk for 4e.
Hah! No doubt.
While I plan on picking up the new FR, I honestly feel for the FR fans. I've got no vested interest in the setting so I can peruse it out of curiosity.
Yeah, the N... word upsets a lot of people on these boards.
Yes, it does. Nazi comparisons are never appropriate, no matter what the context. Please just don´t use them.
Stefan
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And WotC stole the soul of a wonderful hobby from me, because if I ever do decide to try out 4E with my players, I sure as hell am not spending another $2000, that's for damn sure.Not to sound like a complete unethical sob...Too late - stealing is stealing.
So you justify breaking the law because a company changed a game you like to play ... you know a hobby. It is this kind of irrational statement that makes the haters look bad.
Did you read my last post? Many, most of them regulars, at my local hobby shop REFUSE to buy into 4th Edition. They're all enjoying 3.5E too much (some still play 2E, in fact) and they're tired of WotC's machinations and destruction of the game.Razz,
Any serious shop owner that does not stock 4E is going to miss out on a serious chunck of sales - especially given the details on the OGL.
So your tore is owned by someone that wants to cut off potential sales in his or her area because the small cadre of regulars refuse to buy 4E.
Have you ever worked at a game shop? The regulars are always there but a whole lot of sales come through people that just pop in from time to time, buy their games, and head back to their groups. When 2E came out we met dozens of people that played whom we had never met before - a couple of them became regulars.
It has gotten to the point where they call WotC Nazis (because it seems that's how they are with D&D and it also rhymes, since they phoenetically say WotC).
And there it is ...
You have now crossed the line of civility and rationality. You belittle the victims of the holocaust by comparing a game company to one of, if not the greatest evils ever to have plagued humanity. Wizards of the Coast did not formulate mass killings. They are not supporters of state sponsored racism. The do not use horrific violence to destroy their competition.
This is so far beyond the red line that I have lost any shred of respect I have had for your contribution to these boards.
I wouldn't be surprise to see action figures (based on 4e) released by christmas time 2008 or sometime next year, the races and classes sketches to me seem like productions sketches for a toy line. And it will be another push for them to draw in buyers of 4e products. World of Warcraft now has action figures...it only a matter of time before Dual-slashing scimitar action Drizzt, the action figure package will come with stats on the back of the package card..Hasbro is a toy company...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I wouldn't be surprise to see action figures (based on 4e) released by christmas time 2008 or sometime next year, the races and classes sketches to me seem like productions sketches for a toy line. And it will be another push for them to draw in buyers of 4e products. World of Warcraft now has action figures...it only a matter of time before Dual-slashing scimitar action Drizzt, the action figure package will come with stats on the back of the package card..Hasbro is a toy company...
Funny thing is, I'd rather buy a well done 4.x tiefling or (blue) dragonborn action figure than 4.x
It would be a good marketing idea though.
That would be sweet. I still have my old AD&D action figures.
Orcus Skull mountain playset!
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That would be sweet. I still have my old AD&D action figures.Orcus Skull mountain playset!
That would go well with my Fortress of Fangs set.
So you justify breaking the law because a company changed a game you like to play ... you know a hobby. It is this kind of irrational statement that makes the haters look bad.
No it doesn't. What would make 4e haters look bad is if f4ns irrationally attributed that one aspect to the whole group.
Which if one were to go looking for a reason to dismiss an opinion in conflict with their own out of hand is exactly what one would do.
As a side note, Warduke was awesome. I remember making him the villain of a game back when I was running BECMI. He and Bargle teamed up to smackdown my players.
I was Warduke in BECMI D&D. >:)
Half-orcs are not necessary to play D&D, or even necessary for a "traditional" feel to the game. They are not forcing you to pay-to-play, because in all honesty if you want a half-orc right out of the gate I'm sure plenty of players will make their own race mechanics for it. Not hard.
For you they may not be "traditional" but for a great many people (especially those who started with 3E they are).
...As for the gnomes? Well, they're in the game, so please find something else to whine about. I'm glad myself that they took the time to work on the gnome to make it different rather than include it "just 'cause" and end up with a Small-sized dwarf.
While they may be in the game I now have to buy two books (PHB and MM) as opposed to just one (PHB) in order to play them. Besides that we have no guarantee that the version that appears in the MM will be as detailed and have as many options as the full PHB races will.
...As for the tin-foil delusion that DDI is necessary to play the game, you have yet to show me any instance where Wizards is witholding even remotely crucial game mechanics that I otherwise could not game without. Half-orcs are not critical to the game.
Other individuals feel that half-orcs are essential to the game and I for one do not like the fact that all of the material that was once free on the WoTC site will now be a part of the DDI.
The only real issue that I can find in this sea of irrational hatred is for the players who happen to be running a half-orc AND were intending to play in 4th Edition in the first place (see, if you werent going to because you hate Wizards for whatever reason, then griping about it really doesnt count).
For them, I'm sure someone will crank out a quality 3rd-party stat block to use until an official one comes out, in which case I'm sure it'll make it onto the internet anyway.
Many people want to know why they should have to wait for a 3rd-party publisher to provide them with information and options that use to be provided in the PHB?
Does WoTC need to provide everything in the initial launch? Obviously no. But a decent explanation as why they are not including them would be nice (without telling us to go buy a book).
Lastly, people have every right to be upset about the changes. They obviously like the game and have invested money in it so they should be concerned when there are changes they don't like.
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I wouldn't be surprise to see action figures (based on 4e) released by christmas time 2008 or sometime next year, the races and classes sketches to me seem like productions sketches for a toy line. And it will be another push for them to draw in buyers of 4e products. World of Warcraft now has action figures...it only a matter of time before Dual-slashing scimitar action Drizzt, the action figure package will come with stats on the back of the package card..Hasbro is a toy company...
I think that they will be the new look for the D&D Miniatures line.
Keep in mind that with Dungeons of Dread, the DDM rules will also switch to version 2.0, which is quite probably as much a rehaul of the old, convoluted rules, as an adaptation to the 4E gaming structure (AC and reflex saves we've already seen in the promo card for the Spined Devil).Some old critters have already received a graphic "modernization" such as the Bone Devil/Osyluth (ugly), the Green Dragon (ugly, with the nose horn), and the Feral Troll (on steroids for the feral template).
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Here's the rub. WotC says that you don't need to subscribe to DDI if you want to play the game, unless you want to play a half-orc. Then it will be unless you want to play a (insert core class here), then it will be another core race, then this feat that should be core, etc., etc.
DDI is a premium service just like Dragon and Dungeon. If you wanted to use material in Dragon or Dungeon you had to pay money. Heck if you want to use any game content (without stealing it) you have to pay money and that has been true since the original.
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DDI is a premium service just like Dragon and Dungeon. If you wanted to use material in Dragon or Dungeon you had to pay money. Heck if you want to use any game content (without stealing it) you have to pay money and that has been true since the original.
The problem that most posters seem to have with this, is being sold "extras" that have previously been core. Purchasing the old magazines for extra content was great because you usually received something completely different from "core"(tibbits, battle dancer etc..)
*I am one of those "undecided" about 4th. My players don't even care what edition we play. It's one of those things where the more I hear about 4th, the more excited I get(faster gameplay, combined skills etc). The more I see about 4th, the less excited I get(tieflings, dragonborn, DDI, etc). Haha!|
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Exactly. I fully expect to pay for several extra books to play a dragonwrought kobold hexblade or a goliath ninja, but it seems ridiculous to need two PHBs and a DDI subscription to play something as basic as a half-orc barbarian.
I can't play something as basic as a half-orc barbarian with just my AD&D PHB =(
I can't play something as basic as a half-orc OR barbarian with just my 2nd Edition PHB =(
I can't play something as basic as a half-orc barbarian with just my Rules Cyclopedia either. =(
*shakes fist at all those games*