RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Just wondering, I've been teaching a friend D&D by chucking her into the water with our old group in a gamin I'm running. I use the 28 point array. This distresses our veteran players who are used to "4d6, drop the lowest, reroll ones."
Another game that my newbie friend in involved in the guy running it had everyone roll 8+1d10, except for one roll which was 8+4d4 He said it's because he likes high powered characters.
I just ran a bunch of newbies with the 25 point array.
When teaching players what method do you like to use?
Contributor
|
Usually I use the Elite Array- 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. If I feel bad for them I'll go with 16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 10 or something similar. I'd go with point buy, but then I have to explain point buy to new players, which is always a pain.
Although I'm a big fan of pre-generating characters for brand-new players. Make about 2-3 times as many characters as players and let them pick based on background info only. It really evens out the field to start.
Most of the time when you use point-buy, you end up with something similar anyhow.
Or you end up with someone with all their point in one or two stats and the rest 10 and 8's.
Personally, if rolls aren't used, I prefer the arrays as opposed to actual point buy.
|
When I played 1e I used 4d6 drop the lowest, but that was because you needed really high scores to even see a benefit. You can make VERY viable builds in 3.x with 28 point buy (typically, I use 16,14,12,12,10,10 for simple classes, or 14,14,14,14,10,10 for classes that need a few decent scores to work well, such as monk or paladin).
I DM'd a player through RttToEE last year, and he used dice rolls to generate his party. He had an equivalent 57 point buy dwarven cleric, and he was the most BORING character to DM. High strength, constitution, AND wisdom. I'll never do that again.
I DM'd a player through RttToEE last year, and he used dice rolls to generate his party. He had an equivalent 57 point buy dwarven cleric, and he was the most BORING character to DM. High strength, constitution, AND wisdom. I'll never do that again.
I too have had a similar experience with rolling. I either use a 28-30 point buy or I let people roll. My variant rolling system is that the player must place the stat when they roll it. 4d6, drop lowest.
So roll 13, put it into a stat. Then roll again, place, repeat as necessary. It has the benefit of pleasing the people that want to roll, but from a DMs perspective, every character does not always have a cookie-cutter build.
Basically the first good roll, say 15+ that comes up is likely going to go in the main stat. Even if they roll an 18 later, there is no switching. It has made for some interesting characters that rolled well on what they thought was a throw-away stat.
|
|
4d6 drop the lowest. One of the DMs I've played with lets players get a choice, reroll their lowest score (after placing them) or get an heirloom.
Heirlooms are usually defensive or non-aggressive magic items. There are a couple "vs. creature type" heirlooms on there, but nothing like magic swords and such. Just utility items.
8 10 12 14 16 18
I too have had problems with the 4d6 method. I thought "boring" was a decent choice of a word to describe it, but I would also add "frustraiting" for the DM. Not sure what I will use for my next campaign. Toying with the idea of having each player roll their stats in front of the whole group. Kind of a "making your new characters" session.
Point buy has the advantages of ensuring a parity among all of the PCs and gives the DM a good idea of how tough they need to make the encounters. However, certain players tend to build characters with a set array of stats, which can be considered "boring" or "cliche."
Rolling has the advantages of spontaneity in character creation and can be used as an inspiration for the character concept. However, it can throw off the power level of the campaign and cause friction between players. If the entire party rolls high or low, the DM has to adjust the challenges in the adventures to compensate; even worse, when one player rolls exceptionally well compared to the rest of the party, a reasonable challenge for the rest of the party will be easy for the super character and challenging encounters for the super character can be deadly for the rest of the party. Rolling tends to aggravate power creep, also ("A character without at least one 17 and two 15s is unplayable").
Personally, I'm fond of point buy or organic (roll 4d6 drop one in order, reroll any one score, swap any two scores). One way to handle the rolling methods is to set a minimum and maximum for total ability modifiers. The default array yields a total ability modifier of +5, so a range of +4 to +6 would reasonably approximate the same power level (on par with 25 point buy). 28 point buy can be approximated by total ability modifier range of +6 to +8.
Well, I think it important that you tell a new player that every single gm will have their own character generation rules specific to the level of their game and that a player should just not be to mindset on one method; I think your other players have a very valid point and that you cheated them as they rolled dice and your new player just assigned values. In the long run the math on the stats you would generate is about the same; almost exactly, it is only the moment to moment risk on a roll that makes it unfair.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Sorry I wasn't clear Valegrim,
when our other two DMs run their games, they use 4d6 drop the lowest reroll ones.
When I DM -everybody- uses the 28 point buy. We have a new player, she uses the same point buy.
The other game she's playing in was the one with the uber stat rolls.
My question really was more along the lines of do you think new players should learn with high powered characters, or with 'average' characters?
I give everyone a flat 92 points total, and allow them to put the scores where they like. I know it sounds WAY overpowered, but I can rarely get even three people to play, and it saves me the trouble of having to adjust encounters of an appropriate challenge rating. If I ever get a larger/more balanced group, I'll give them more reasonable stats.
|
|
I usually get all of my players to roll a set of 6 stats the 4d6 method and then ask them, collectively, to pick the set of stats which they want to use (ie. they all have the same numbers, it's usually decent but not brilliant). If they produce awful stats (highly unlikely) I give them a bump, if they produce super-mega stats I veto that set, or push them down.
As long as I keep talking through it ("That's obscenely high! you can't have that", "Poor lambs, those are rubbish scores, i'll just bump them to something a little more heroic..." etc.) nobody minds.
Because I often end up DMing a mix of experienced dnders and newcomers the most important things for me are:
1 - good, but not great stats
2 - everybody with similar arrays
I want everyone to have fun. Being pounded and not getting to join in are the biggest obstacles to that fun; combat challenges being too easy comes a distant third.
I think there is no need for uber stats and you won't get those on 4d6 drop one either. That is if you do not allow unlimited rerolls. I have one player who goes to a computer to roll the stats and legitimately gets what ever result he wants... after 20-40 rolls that is. Or more appropriately 20 to 40 clicks. (Now that I now that was the case, it will be no more.) Other wise you get such things as 11,16,15,12,10,6 as I just rolled.
The old rules I had when I was a player (and implement myself from time to time) was:
- *All stats had to be rolled in front of the DM or other recognized witness.
*Everytime you rolled a new set you couldn't go back to an old set (gamble your stats).
*Only a maximum of 3 sets could be rolled (I use four).
But for my next campaign I am just using a point buy. The biggest thing about rolling stats is the same as going to a casino. You have 'the dream' of making it big. But statistically you wouldn't get an uber character.
Edited to remove a double sentence.
I believe someone just totally new to the game should roll for abilities. I feel this will introduce them to the feel of the game, better than point buy. Later you can have point buy and such when they are more experienced and can start analyzing which combinations of abiities scores would work best.
|
Contributor
|
I would not be opposed to letting a novice have a more powerful starting character than the rest of the group, especially if the new player was not experienced in other games with tactical/strategic/planning elements. I don't really think it's neccessary though.
As for point buy vs. random, I will once agian direct people to the Three Dragon Readings article in Dragon #346.
This system allows you to create randomized characters that are point-buy balanced, and can inspire character background ideas as well. I'm biased, because I wrote it, but my group unanimously voted to use it from now on, and they usually complain when I tinker with the rules.
For teaching, I use pre-generated characters. Once they've learned the game and are creating their first 'real' characters, they use whichever method my group is currently using. At the moment, that is 4d6-drop-lowest.
My question really was more along the lines of do you think new players should learn with high powered characters,
Absolutely not.
or with 'average' characters?
Yes.
When I started DMing, I had never played any D&D before. I had to learn all of it from the ground up, with no one to show me the ropes. My friends were enamoured with high powered characters, so I let them have them almost from the get-go (seriously, one guy looked through the MM for racial options before the PHB). I allowed three sets to be rolled, and the minimum a set had to conform to in order to even be considered was pretty high, anyway.
I quickly came to hate this arrangement. Or rather, I quickly came to hate the power imbalances that I was noticing. Two players always rolled incredibly, one "sucky" (compared to the Superman PCs; in truth, this guy's sets were average and viable compared to the "norm"). The two super characters could blow through about anything, seemed unbeatable, and worse, one of them lorded his superior status over the others with narcissistic glee (and the other Superman PC's player was his best friend, so they formed a kind of power bloc at the table which wasn't fun to deal with).
In the end, I was just too easily persuaded to let them keep going that route, and too lenient on stat generation. Now, even after three of them are gone, the one guy who rolled "sucky" (normal) is obsessed with having super-high stats, still influenced by the skewed norm of the old group. He feels that 32 point buy is "terrible," barely able to create viable characters (this is because you would have to use about 45 point buy to make the types of characters the Super Bloc used to have). A perfect point of the power creep Dragonchess Player mentioned above. Unfortunately, I haven't established a new group yet to "break" him of that (mis)conception.
Start them "normal" or they'll get spoiled and mope when you bring them back down to a balanced playing field (either that, or kiss game-balance good buy). I like 28 point buy for this, to make sure they have viable stats without being too powerful, but rolling (with rerolling limitations) typically yields about 29 point buy I think, and I do enjoy the randomness.
Thus, my policy has become you can roll one set, which must conform to at least the PHB's minimums in order to "count." If it's a borderline case, you can appeal to me for a stat boost (which may or may not come). If you don't like that set, you can make one reroll set. Alternately, you can choose 28 point buy right from the start, or after the first set. If you choose to make a reroll set, you must use it or the first set. Unfortunately, as I previously mentioned, I don't have a new group yet to actually implement this policy on. But it's established for when I find one!
New players should definately learn with 'average' stats. Either 25 point buy, elite array or the standard rolling method.
|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
It depends on what kind of game you want to run.
4d6, take the best 3 always worked for me, newbies or otherwise.
If I run a low magic campaign (like my homebrew), I'll let them go 5d6, best 3, and if they don't get an 18, they can drop their lowest to make an 18.
But, if they're brand new to D&D, I would think the 4d6 method is your best bet. It gives them balance, with a chance for some really good scores. I love the suspense of rolling stats when I create characters, and I'd like to pass that feeling on to anyone new to the game as well.
Ah; yep, I missed that thanks for the clarification.
hmm, will think about it... I dont know that it matters as long as the gm affects the dc targets adequately; average characters are going to have less skill and be a bit less effective in combat and using skills, but as long as the mobs are scaled, I really dont see any difference.
Sorry I wasn't clear Valegrim,
when our other two DMs run their games, they use 4d6 drop the lowest reroll ones.
When I DM -everybody- uses the 28 point buy. We have a new player, she uses the same point buy.
The other game she's playing in was the one with the uber stat rolls.
My question really was more along the lines of do you think new players should learn with high powered characters, or with 'average' characters?
Hey, say what you want about average stats, but when I play with a bunch of newbies and there are TWO people in a party instead of four or more, my 92 point system has worked perfectly. We've never had a problem with combat being "too easy", either. It's much more fun than adjusting encounters accordingly, too....who wants to be ambushed by only two goblins?
If there are four people or more, or if there is more than ONE player of even moderate experience, I use the roll 4d6 method. Meh. To each his own.
My question really was more along the lines of do you think new players should learn with high powered characters, or with 'average' characters?
I think they should not get too high-powered characters. Elite array, 4d6/drop, or 25-28 point buy should work nicely. If you spoil them in the beginning with too high-powered characters, you can´t correct that later. Powering them up is always possible.
That said, the last AD&D round I played in the DM gave us some abnormally high point buy (105 points on seven stats with 1-to-1 buying), and I ended up having a dwarven fighter/cleric with ST 18/something, WIS 18 and CON 19. Later on, he got his hands on a Deck of Many Things, ang got a raise on his primary attributes... Even later, he found Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Girdle of Storm Giant strength...
But this was meant to be a very heroic group, intent on going against the Demon Lord Alphaks (Mystara setting) in the end.
Normally, I use 4d6/drop lowest and let the players roll four sets of stats - that produces quite tough PCs. It would depend on the number of players, as well. My current campaign has only three, so it is ok that they are a bit more powerful.
Stefan
As for point buy vs. random, I will once agian direct people to the Three Dragon Readings article in Dragon #346.
I dug out this Dragon a few days ago and tried it once, just a test run. It is nice and generates some background ideas.
In this case, it was indicated that physical was primary in the beginning, but he ended with ST 8, DX 11, and CO 14, while he had IN 14, WIS 14, and CHA 12. So, it can generate results that are unexpected. But I had an inordinate amount of Green Dragons in the spread, that might have something to do with it.I wrote down the spread, perhaps you care to compare if you get the same results?
1. Nature: Green 10
2. Spirit: Bronze 11
3. Body: Copper 1
4. Mind: Copper 3
5. Nurture: White 8
6. Strength: Bahamut
7. Dexterity: Brass 1
8. Constitution: Green 4
9. Intelligence: Green 6
10. Wisdom: Green 8
11. Charisma: Red 8
Stefan
There are a lot of responses on this from the perspective of being a DM for new players, but what about the response from said players? I agree with the posts against super-powering players right off the bat, because they're harder to manage at "low"-levels later.
But I think the key is to explain to new folks what the stat array means to the character and game-play. Whether you roll an array or use a point-buy system, if the new players don't understand how the stats relate to other game mechanics, it's just a bunch of numbers. Any system can be abused by bad players or used poorly by new players.
Personally, I've always preferred point-buy, since I come up with my character concept, incl. race, class, and environment, and then can tailor my stats accordingly. If you want some randomness but the leveling power of point-buy, have each player write down a couple of stat arrays according to the point system and then pick one at random for each person. Best of both worlds, I'd say.
There are a lot of responses on this from the perspective of being a DM for new players, but what about the response from said players? I agree with the posts against super-powering players right off the bat, because they're harder to manage at "low"-levels later.
But I think the key is to explain to new folks what the stat array means to the character and game-play. Whether you roll an array or use a point-buy system, if the new players don't understand how the stats relate to other game mechanics, it's just a bunch of numbers. Any system can be abused by bad players or used poorly by new players.
Personally, I've always preferred point-buy, since I come up with my character concept, incl. race, class, and environment, and then can tailor my stats accordingly. If you want some randomness but the leveling power of point-buy, have each player write down a couple of stat arrays according to the point system and then pick one at random for each person. Best of both worlds, I'd say.
My players about had a riot when I mentioned an array or point buy system...they said "@#$@$ we might as well just play WoW or EQ if we dont even get to roll dice for our stats anymore..." I never asked them again and stick with 4d6 drop the lowest, you get 2 sets or a 3rd set if you take a random flaw on my personal flaw chart.