I will buy 4E. I will play 4E. I will buy both Paizo and WoTC products in 2008 and when 4.5 comes out - I will buy and play that too. Bury me with the current edition when I pass away. I am a gamer and will adapt with whatever version exists.
I hate that I am such a Paizo-wh*re...That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)
I'm more like a Paizo-fiend. Can't get enough of them super-golden crisps....
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I'm more like a Paizo-fiend. Can't get enough of them super-golden crisps....I hate that I am such a Paizo-wh*re...That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)
Wait, if we're supposed to be Paizo-fiends and not Paizo-wh*res, then my local retailed wont be offering 'A Pimp Slap With Every Purchase?' Great. I might as well just order online.
::sigh::
Thank Lovatar it is not a Dire Paizo-fiend.
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Isn't that what play-testing is all about? Trying something out, seeing if it works, then make the decision to place it in the rules or leave it in the dust.
I'm not sure what your point is, but yeah, that's what playtesting is basically all about. Which makes it a really important thing to do before a publication and I'd be quite concerned if they didn't playtest their new system.
That means that everything that you bought before in 3.5 will now become obsolete...ao all that money you spent to own all those books, to keep yourself up to date and making some of the best characters you can...now that gets thrown through the window,...
Two times wrong. First there is a lot of 3.5 material which does not become useless through a new edition, mainly campaign-specific sourcebooks, but generally all things called fluff can be used in 4E. You won't tell me that you burnt all those great 2E fluffbooks, won't you?
And second, if I buy a book which I read only one time I wouldn't consider the money to be thrown through the window even if I don't plan to reread it anytime soon. So all this money spent for 20 years of having great fun, I can't consider this way either.But they are making it a standard rule, re-releasing all brand new core books and supplement books there-after. This now becomes a requirement...and all future supplements will affect this, destroying all that you before.
Why would they create a new edition anyways if they did not intend to change the core rules? If you call this rip-off for this reason, than D&D has been a chain of rip-offs after 1E was released.
4th edition would be good for those that have never played before, or owned any of the previous books. But to those that have spent all their hard earn money on book after book and their time learning all the new rules, this is a slap in the face...
Yeah, and 3E was a slap in the face for all hard-working people which had spent their money for 2E products.
To be honest, I had much preferred if they waited for 2009 or 2010 to publish 4E, which would make the 3E last for a decade, But even so, 3E has lasted for 7 years which is not so bad (imho). By the way, I would argue that 3.5 was a necessity and a vast improvement over 3.0(which had admittedly being built from the ground up). So, assuming that 4E is refining and evolving things with 3.5 as a basis, I see no reason to fear something as an 4.5 Edition. I may be wrong though.
You may place hate posts for what I have said, but if you would only sit back and think of what has been mentioned. You would know it to be true.
Here's hoping that you don't take my words to be a hate post. But I have been thinking about 4E for a year before it was even announced, and as you can see above, I tend to disagree. I won't necessarily convert to 4E at the moment it is published, but there seem to be some changes I really like so at least I'll give it a look.
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Isn't that what play-testing is all about? Trying something out, seeing if it works, then make the decision to place it in the rules or leave it in the dust.
I'm not sure what your point is, but yeah, that's what playtesting is basically all about. Which makes it a really important thing to do before a publication and I'd be quite concerned if they didn't playtest their new system.
I believe what he implied (and I hope he will forgive me if I'm wrong), was that the 4th Edition has been trumpeted by WOTC as essential, in order to fix all the (allegedly) poor rules of 3.0/3.5.
The point being; why have WOTC released rules for 3.0/3.5 if they are not happy with them, and/or not prepared to play-test them?
Just want to post what really bothers me about the eminent arrival of D&D 4th edition.
When 3rd edition was announced, there was an overall readiness and excitement about it. It was well documented in Dragon magazine and adds put up in FLGS's all over the country. Everyone knew it was coming and there was a lot of preparation and help to get people into it. You had all kinds of conversion articles for moving your existing characters and campaign into the new rules set. There were articles that explained how bits and pieces of the new game system worked like feats, a look at new class abilities, new monsters, etc.
4th edition? Nothing but denials and outright lies about it all the way up until the announcement a week and a half ago.
And then, let's look at the timing. Not 3 months ago, WotC gutpunches the gaming world by announcing the discontinuation of our hobby's two most cherished magazines - Dragon and Dungeon - and converting them to a digital subscription. No discounts offered to existing subscribers, no benefit for years and years of loyalty, and about a month or two following that big announcement of really crappy vaporware.
So, flash forward after that big announcement, WotC goes and announces that, yes, there is going to be 4th edition and it's going to hit stores May of 2008. Talk about a double whammy!
Unlike the long lead in to 3rd edition, we get a surprise announcement and some horrible YouTube videos to usher in the big news.
That's what really bothers me. I feel insulted by WotC. We gamers were shown a great deal of respect with 3rd edition's arrival, but it feels like we've been shown none at all with 4th. We're just expected to accept it and change or become outdated fossils if we don't.
The whole thing hits guys like me even harder. A freelance writer like me, whether he intends to actually play 4th edition or not, has to purchase the new books to keep current on the rules if he expects to continue writing for the current version of the game. OR... I find a 3rd party publisher that plans to stick with v.3.5 and continue writing myself into yesterday's news.
It's very frustrating. :(
Well, I suppose in my position, I should just keep my mouth shut, but I've always found that hard to do ;) Ah, well.
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Lots of good stuff, and well written....
Your post, Greer, has put everything that struck me badly about the whole 4E switch into a clear and concise manner. I have nothing to add except that you got my feelings spot-on with that post. I too will probably have to buy into 4E, but I will wait until I am sure that 4.5 isn't right around the corner.
FH
Thanks, Fakester. It's good to hear that my thoughts on the matter resonated with you. I wasn't sure I articulated them well enough, but it looks like I did. In the words of Pooh's Eeyore, "Thanks for noticin'."
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How does a new edition draw in new players? How does that work?
Isn't that what Eberron was supposed to do? I just started rereading my Eberron Campaign book, and the beginning few pages seemed to imply that that setting was designed to bring in the younger set.
Well, where are they, right?
It's just a line of crap. Feel guilty if you don't suck for their line of crap, everybody. You're killing D&D. Feel very guilty.
So, alienate your steady customers in a plethora of ways, and hope that a new stream of gowks is coming down the pike.
I feel like it's a pump'n'dump. Milk the franchise for what it's worth and to hell with it. Hasbro got all those damn Magic cards out of the WOTC deal; to hell with D&D. That's the future I see.
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Lots of good stuff, and well written....Your post, Greer, has put everything that struck me badly about the whole 4E switch into a clear and concise manner. I have nothing to add except that you got my feelings spot-on with that post. I too will probably have to buy into 4E, but I will wait until I am sure that 4.5 isn't right around the corner.
FH
I agree.
I don't know what I'll do though. It depends on what my adrenal glands do when I pick the 4e. PHB up and look through it. I don't know how mad I'll be; I might just be so mad that all the words in it just say, "suck suckness crappy crappy sucky suck give Hasbro all your money you stooge suck suck suck" to me. Or I might be over it by then.I wonder how long they'll let the Greyhawk issue dangle in the breeze this time.
The whole thing hits guys like me even harder. A freelance writer like me, whether he intends to actually play 4th edition or not, has to purchase the new books to keep current on the rules if he expects to continue writing for the current version of the game.
I guess its a little like being an IT professional: you have to know future programs, current programs, and past programs, and be certified in all those that you will be using.
I never made a huge investment in 3.5. While I think 3.5 is, in general, a playable game, I think a lot of improvements can (and will) be made in 4.0.
In your case (and all those like you who freelance for the fantasy/gaming industry), I sympathize with you. Had I found the perfect game in 3.5, I would have no interest in 4.0. But therein lies the problem; there is no perfect game. :)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I agree.
I don't know what I'll do though. It depends on what my adrenal glands do when I pick the 4e. PHB up and look through it. I don't know how mad I'll be; I might just be so mad that all the words in it just say, "suck suckness crappy crappy sucky suck give Hasbro all your money you stooge suck suck suck" to me. Or I might be over it by then.
Great. Just f@~~ing great. I finally get an article accepted for publication and you're already trashing it. I'll have you know that suckage is a deep topic, about which much can be written.
I sympathize with your sentiments more than you may believe. I get really sick of wotc's publicity machine. The way they handled dragon/dungeon can only be described as a fiasco. I still have a lot of hope and faith in 4e, but I do worry about wotc's competency.
Its these stupid "oh god, all my money is wasted" crap I have no patience for. Quit buying cars while you're at it - they break down and need to be replaced eventually too.
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Well, that's why I don't mess with you (more) about it.
I really hope you're right and it does gangbusters.
I just don't understand the logic of "new system=scads of new players."
And, I'm starting to wonder if there's any chance it won't suck, and if it doesn't, will I even be able to tell?
I really am capable of getting so mad that I can't tell if I like it or not.
I would prefer to have continuity with a rules system that lasts longer than 3-4 years (which is how long 3.0 and 3.5 have each lasted) before having to learn an entirely new set of rulebooks. As a GM, I have to know the rules and material well. And being lazy, I'd prefer to not have to commit new books to memory as often as they're making me. 1st and 2nd edition lasted about 10 years each (though I'd argue 2nd edition should have been sacked much sooner than it was). How about say 6-7 years per edition...
I will buy 4E. I will play 4E. I will buy both Paizo and WoTC products in 2008 and when 4.5 comes out - I will buy and play that too. Bury me with the current edition when I pass away. I am a gamer and will adapt with whatever version exists.
What he said.
I've played DnD off & on for 25 years now, and I'm anti-4.0 namely because I'm growing anti-Wizards. They are a company, a corporation, with all the sad connotations of same. Compare their newest products to the products released by other companies. The Monster Manual V has a lot of useless garbage to say about its genuinely good set of monsters. It's padded so that every monster begins on a new page. Why? I'd rather have more monsters myself.
While Paizo had to work to trim Dungeon to fit all of the great content into its pages, there are major sections of every release by Wizards lately that is useless. How many times does one need to buy the stats for a ghoul? Really.
I do not know who is doing marketing research for the company because I have yet to meet a player that likes the new (page-consuming) encounter formats. That whole Expedition series, likely geared towards old-time gamers such as myself, is designed for newbie play.
Maybe Wizards should have two lines of product: one for people who need everything spelled out for them and one for people who can play the game without training wheels.
Paizo's respect for the players & their ability to process information will always win over Wizard's corporate strategies in my mind. Too bad it's not Paizo retracting the DnD license from WoC...
Sorry for the continuous rant, but let me add two more things. What happened to the promise that only the three core rule books would be needed for any of the expansions (with world-specific ones only needing the base world book)? Gone. I don't own the Nine Swords book, so can't access the unexplained abilities of the Nine Swords PC class villains in Undermountain (to name one example).
And I don't need (to name some Wizards errors):
-Monsters who cast as Sorcerers taking Quicken Spell. (multiple times, usually Dragons and not as a prereq for something else)
-4th level Human Fighters with Spring Attack AND Weapon Specialization.
-Generic unnamed villains taking Spring Attack and wearing heavy armor. (talk about misleading)
-A broken power curve skewing the system (i.e. sorcerer heritage feats, "Powerful Charge", 2nd level spells that do Int damage (CR 12 animal, let my 3rd level wizard handle him, Spell Compendium, and yes, it's damage, not penalty), CR X monsters with CR X+Y casting abilities and enough power to more than compensate for less equipment, et al)
Okay, starting to lose rant energy, apologies for the length, I'm just pissed "my" game company (Hasbro/WoC/TSR) is heading into the toilet and I can't expect any future Dungeon/Dragons from Paizo, the only reliable source of DnD materials for some time now...
Sigh.
Oh, and I also don't like trying to surf the new DnD website where even product info on 4.0 is for Insiders only. (thinking MMORPG $ influences on that, but why would I subscribe to a company that's been turning out such lame product lately?)
Heathansson's observation that much of WoTC's efforts being geared towards marketing the game to new and younger players: (is the dominant theme in most of what WoTC is doing), is correct.
This is for example why Greyhawk saw almost ZERO publications during 3.0/3.5 era; because WoTC assumed that saps like me would keep buying their products even though WoTC didn't design products (Greyhawk & other) that I wanted; and they (WoTC) confined almost all their efforts into creating and promoting Gooberon (Eberron-sorry Errant Jr., I couldn't resist) to try to rope new players into the game.
My greatest wish is that WoTC will not take those of us who have played the game from the beginning, for granted, and ignore the products that we want (magazines, continuity, etc) in an insatiable quest to market the game to new prospective players. While I fully recognize the financial need to continually market the game to an ever-widening audience, WoTC should likewise not ignore the old-school d&d players, nor take us for granted. And I believe WoTC are guilty of doing this. Paizo has previously produced products that many of us wanted and now Paizo regretably can't produce "official" products, which is an important distinction to this writer. So since only WoTC can produce 'official' products, it is my sincere hope that they will continue to design products that cater to the interests of those who have played the game for some time (More Maure Castle for starters please) and not confine their efforts solely to trying to lure new players into the game-or else the new players will soon be WoTC's only players...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, that's why I don't mess with you (more) about it.
Ditto.
I really hope you're right and it does gangbusters.
Ditto.
I just don't understand the logic of "new system=scads of new players."
I think the logic would be bigger online presence = new players. I've mentioned before that in the dark old days of 2e, when I wasn't plugged into a good D&D internet community, Knights of the Dinner Table served as my gamer community even when I couldn't game. I think that's what they're shooting for, is to have a gamer community that's not just the flametastic forums they have now. Further, by making the rules cleaner and baking the hard parts like character creation into the online presence, the game should (theoretically) be easier to pick up.
The other thing is that system relaunches are generally a good time to pick up new players. It's funny because the mountain of 3.5 books that everyone bemoans as a cost to get into the new edition also exist as a cost to get into the current edition. The new player coming into 3.5 can easily be overwhelmed by how much material is in print. A new edition allows a clean jumping on point.
Anyway, those are just theories.
As an aside to persons who are not Heathansson or other reasonable folk such as he: please do not post in response to the above with some asinine anecdotal story about how you "know" some kids/the minds of all gamers and none of the above would appeal to them. I don't care and I'm trying to cut down on screaming at you for the sake of Fakey.
And, I'm starting to wonder if there's any chance it won't suck, and if it doesn't, will I even be able to tell?
I think the best window into 4e (short of WotC's s$&$ty previews) is Mike Mearls' blog and the Design & Development column on WotC. Take a read through those and they should give you an idea of whether you will like it or not. The Design column has been the only thing I read on the D&D site.
I really am capable of getting so mad that I can't tell if I like it or not.
Given that I am calm and rational all the time, I simply cannot relate. ;-)
I think the best window into 4e (short of WotC's s!&%ty previews) is Mike Mearls' blog and the Design & Development column on WotC.
No chance. Have you listened to this guy talk about himself on the podcast? I don't know how Noonan puts up with it.
My greatest wish is that WoTC will not take those of us who have played the game from the beginning, for granted...
Why shouldn't they? For everyone's foot-stamping, you all will buy 4e.
I think the best window into 4e (short of WotC's s@@%ty previews) is Mike Mearls' blog and the Design & Development column on WotC. Take a read through those and they should give you an idea of whether you will like it or not. The Design column has been the...
The latest makes me wonder how they play D&D. I thought there was a general shift to dynamic dungeons before 4th edition. However, he makes it sound groundbreaking to have monsters in multiple rooms helping each other. Part of it maybe I never paid much attention to the EL and saw it more of a guideline to help than a strict rule.
One again Im not seeing how the play is diffrent.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Isn't that what Eberron was supposed to do? I just started rereading my Eberron Campaign book, and the beginning few pages seemed to imply that that setting was designed to bring in the younger set.
Well, where are they, right?
To be fair, half of the new gamers I helped start D&D (all of them fifteen and younger when they first started), I used Eberron as their first game.
Of course, the other half (the better half, IMO, with no offense meant towards the aforementioned (they're nice kids)), I introduced them via Greyhawk. Good ol' Mesavan, super cleric, and Domm, dwarven fighter and worshipper of Wulfgar the super dwarf (who's assumed to be mortal, BTW)...
Its these stupid "oh god, all my money is wasted" crap I have no patience for. Quit buying cars while you're at it - they break down and need to be replaced eventually too.
While I agree change and, to a large extent, evolution are inevitable I should like to put forth that just because another industry follows a certain strategy or even if other companies within the same industry follow a certain strategy does not make it 'right'.
"Suck it up, it's inevitable." Is no more insightful than everyone running around like Chicken Little yelling, "WotC is falling! WotC is falling!"
We know that 99.9% of the people screaming they will never buy from WotC again will eventually break down and buy in. I suggest quietly saving their posts for a year and them link back to them when they post a question about how their Fighter's 2nd level 'Poke and Swipe' ability functions against a Rogue's 'Cant Touch This' feat.
All I know is that everyone that goes trading in their 3x books I will follow them and buy everything used. Then my collection will be complete. Hahahahaha
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I don't know what I'll do...when I pick the 4e. PHB up and look through it. I don't know how mad I'll be...
Great. Just f!*!ing great. I finally get an article accepted for publication and you're already trashing it. I'll have you know that suckage is a deep topic, about which much can be written.
I'm confused; are you (ie Sebastian) saying you have contributed material to the forthcoming 4E PHB?
Or 4E content to a future online Dragon/Dungeon?
If so, what is your pen-name, so I can look out for it. I always assumed you were just another 'civilian' player (albeit a very vocal one...).
Either way, it could explain your support of 4E, if you have more idea of the content than the rest of us. Are you able to discuss, or are you tied by non-disclosure agreements?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm confused; are you (ie Sebastian) saying you have contributed material to the forthcoming 4E PHB?Or 4E content to a future online Dragon/Dungeon?
If so, what is your pen-name, so I can look out for it. I always assumed you were just another 'civilian' player (albeit a very vocal one...).
Either way, it could explain your support of 4E, if you have more idea of the content than the rest of us. Are you able to discuss, or are you tied by non-disclosure agreements?
No, that was a misfired joke. Heathy was complaining about how 4e would just read "suckity, suckity, suck suck suck" and I was taking his comment literally and saying that I wrote the text in question. I have no discernable talents outside of b%@%@ing, moaning, and belittling; certainly nothing that would recommend me for publication in a gaming related periodicals.
However, I am the CEO of Hasbro, so there is something of a conflict of interest.
I call it "Sebastic". It's a lot like clever sarcasm, but just a bit more clever and whole lot more sarcastic.
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The Monster Manual V has a lot of useless garbage to say about its genuinely good set of monsters. It's padded so that every monster begins on a new page. Why? I'd rather have more monsters myself.
That's not the only filler material out there.
Look at the 'Complete...' set of books; every prestige class comes with a sample NPC, which is fair enough, I suppose. I didn't ask for them, I would probably build them differently, but I can see how they could be of use to DMs who are pushed for time. So I don't object to them on principle...
But, each one has to have its abilities explained in mind-f%~+ing detail, every time, despite the fact that the specific PrC abilities are on the facing page, or at most, overleaf.
Other abilities are also repeated from the PHB, unecessarily. How many times in 'Complete Adventurer' are Sneak Attack, Evasion, Trapfinding or Uncanny Dodge given a paragraph? And in how many cases is it repeated in both the PrC description and the following sample NPC?
These are standard, low-level abilities of an essential, iconic base class. If you're reading this book, chances are you're already playing a rogue, or you're DM for one. If you don't yet understand how these abilities work, you shouldn't be reading the book!
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I'm confused; are you (ie Sebastian) saying you have contributed material to the forthcoming 4E PHB?
No, that was a misfired joke. Heathy was complaining about how 4e would just read "suckity, suckity, suck suck suck" and I was taking his comment literally and saying that I wrote the text in question. I have no discernable talents outside of b%~~#ing, moaning, and belittling; certainly nothing that would recommend me for publication in a gaming related periodicals.
However, I am the CEO of Hasbro, so there is something of a conflict of interest.
That's fine; I already read the thread where you 'revealed' to TheRealBrain you were CEO of Hasbro. I don't know if he bit or not, though some other poor chap did...Oh dear, I hope someone has put him straight by now...
I was asking a serious question, though; I know that the submissions pile at Paizo got passed to WOTC to sift through, hence Nicholas Logue having his sequel published. And, since I don't know your real name, I have no way of checking if you are destined to be (or already are) in print.
I assume, though, that any existing submissions accepted by Paizo would have been based on 3.5, so the only way anyone would be able to contribute to the new-edition Dungeon or Dragon, would be if they had advance notice of the new rules, which pretty much limits it to the designers and play-testers. Since WOTC are planning to change edition May 2008, does this give them enough time to read, re-solicit and re-edit 3.5 material that was already in the pipeline, or solicit new 4E material from scratch? Maybe one of our resident scenario/article authors could confirm the timescale they took, from solicitation to newsstand?
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When 3rd edition was announced, there was an overall readiness and excitement about it. It was well documented in Dragon magazine and adds put up in FLGS's all over the country. Everyone knew it was coming and there was a lot of preparation and help to get people into it. You had all kinds of conversion articles for moving your existing characters and campaign into the new rules set. There were articles that explained how bits and pieces of the new game system worked like feats, a look at new class abilities, new monsters, etc.
...
Unlike the long lead in to 3rd edition, we get a surprise announcement and some horrible YouTube videos to usher in the big news.
Um... are we not getting about nine months' worth of lead-in? Maybe a bit less than with 3e, but well in advance of product launch. And we're starting to see preview articles already, and we'll be getting a lot more than with 3e eventually, due to the increased online presence compared to 1999-2000.
I mean, the lead-in to 3e started with a "surprise" announcement, too.
Um... are we not getting about nine months' worth of lead-in? Maybe a bit less than with 3e, but well in advance of product launch. And we're starting to see preview articles already, and we'll be getting a lot more than with 3e eventually, due to the increased online presence compared to 1999-2000.
I mean, the lead-in to 3e started with a "surprise" announcement, too.
Define, the "surprise" announcement of 3E, Occam. If you define it by Wizards denying and outright lying about it for about a year and then finally revealing it, well then, yes, I guess it's the same thing and you're right and my point of view is completely invalid. :? I don't remember it that way, though, and my memory is still pretty good. But if you feel like WotC has been completely up front with you with the annoucedment of 4E and you like their marketing strategies and customer relations tactics, then good for you. You're exactly the type of gamer they're targeting.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Define, "surprise" announcement, Occam. If you define it by Wizards denying and outright lying about it for about a year and then finally revealing it, well, then yes, I guess it's the same thing and you're right and my point of view is completely invalid. :? If you feel like WotC has been completely up front with you and you like their marketing strategies and customer relations tactics, then good for you.
Hey Steve,
Can you point to anything definitive that WotC said about the release of 4e? I haven't dug too deeply, but most of what I've found uses *ahem* weasley lawyer words when talking about the release of 4e. Things like "it's a long way off" or "if we were to announce it, we probably wouldn't do it at GenCon." I feel like they did say something definitive, or, at least something so close to definitive that it came across that way, but given how many people have been citing their misleading press, I'm surprised someone hasn't posted to it yet.
I know that in connection with the release of the last Magic block, WotC engaged in a little bit of obsfucation. Of course, the Magic community expects surprises and sees it as a game with WotC. I'm wondering if WotC thought they were playing the same trick and misjudged the audience.
And let me just say, yet again, that I am not defending their s&!$ty PR. I'm particularly annoyed at their preview columns. My general feeling is that they are being vague and acting as if things are still wide open because they are trying to operate under the pretense that they are listening to fan input. I think the reality is that they have the fundamental aspects of the game nailed down and, to the extent they are listening to the fans, they are compartmentalizing that information for future web enchancments. So, if they hear a lot of people saying "aw, shucks, I sure hope the gnome is in the core rules" I wouldn't be surprised if the gnome was included in the PHB unlockable content.
All that being said though, part of me can't fault WotC for ignoring the fan outcry. I sure as hell wouldn't listen to the bulk of the irrational, emotional, knee-jerk reaction that has come pouring out. It must be tough to separate out the legitimate concerns of fans from the overstated Tom-Bombadil-esque rantings of the over-entitled fanboy - particularly when your target demographic skews towards the later.
Sebastian, I've been following a whole load of WotC statements over on ENWorld for several months. If I wasn't feeling so extremely lazy right now, I'd probably post links, but... meh, not feeling that impassioned about it at the moment. Occam already got the head of steam I had going :|
What seems glaringly obvious to me is that WotC has made one fumble after the other and is overcompensating right now by combing through the messageboards to see what people are saying and giving some vague promises of making good on what they think we want. The designers seem to be doubling as PR reps and are just horrible at it. They should not be allowed to talk to other living beings outside of the WotC game design studio.
::long sigh::
I do hope Occam is right and that WotC finally gets their feet under them and starts paying closer attention to selling 4E, because as of right now, a lot of us aren't buying.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian, I've been following a whole load of WotC statements over on ENWorld for several months. If I wasn't feeling so extremely lazy right now, I'd probably post links, but... meh, not feeling that impassioned about it at the moment. Occam already got the head of steam I had going :|
No worries. Like I said, I think you are correct that WotC made some misleading statements, but I haven't seen a smoking gun on the issue.
I do hope Occam is right and that WotC finally gets their feet under them and starts paying closer attention to selling 4E, because as of right now, a lot of us aren't buying.
Agreed. WotC is doing a terrible job of selling this edition. Plus, they came into it with the self-inflicted wound of the cancellation of Dragon/Dungeon. They needed to be in the gap, ready to show off a solid piece of 4e to make people say "you know what, that really is what I want" and instead we got a crashed server and "OMG! 4e will be really cool!"
As every writing teacher in the history of the art would say "Show us. Don't tell us."
Edit: Seems to me that they would have been better served using Dragon/Dungeon to sell us 4e, getting us to accept the DI, and, if absolutely necessary at that time, switching them over at the time of launch. But, then again, maybe that would've crippled Paizo's ability to launch Pathfinder.
All I know is that everyone that goes trading in their 3x books I will follow them and buy everything used. Then my collection will be complete. Hahahahaha
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
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All I know is that everyone that goes trading in their 3x books I will follow them and buy everything used. Then my collection will be complete. HahahahahaI was thinking exactly the same thing.
Hell, I've already started. Ordered used copies of Complete Divine and Complete Adventurer off of Amazon for less than $20, including shipping and handling.
Agreed. WotC is doing a terrible job of selling this edition.
Yesterday I took a look at some of the youtube video's. I found the teaser video in one word: stupid. Reason: grappling is not that hard, really!
Then the dungeon and character builder video. I don't need it and everytime one of my players use a piece of software the endresult is flawed......(so my expectation is that this won't be any better)
Finally I picked a video and watched a segment of the presentation, I found it painful to watch, giving a presentation is not for everyone (I am never comfortable giving one) but something this important should have been handled better. There are firms that provide training I believe.
I am in agreement with $ebastian, WotC is doing a terrible job.
All I know is that everyone that goes trading in their 3x books I will follow them and buy everything used. Then my collection will be complete. Hahahahaha
You'll have to beat me to the store. Mwaahaahaa!
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Define, the "surprise" announcement of 3E, Occam. If you define it by Wizards denying and outright lying about it for about a year and then finally revealing it, well then, yes, I guess it's the same thing and you're right and my point of view is completely invalid. :? I don't remember it that way, though, and my memory is still pretty good. But if you feel like WotC has been completely up front with you with the annoucedment of 4E and you like their marketing strategies and customer relations tactics, then good for you. You're exactly the type of gamer they're targeting.Um... are we not getting about nine months' worth of lead-in? Maybe a bit less than with 3e, but well in advance of product launch. And we're starting to see preview articles already, and we'll be getting a lot more than with 3e eventually, due to the increased online presence compared to 1999-2000.
I mean, the lead-in to 3e started with a "surprise" announcement, too.
Steve, chill. You don't know what kind of gamer I am, and your anger is getting the best of you. I wasn't making any comment on WotC's past public relations prior to the 4e announcement. What I was responding to was this:
When 3rd edition was announced, there was an overall readiness and excitement about it. It was well documented in Dragon magazine and adds put up in FLGS's all over the country. Everyone knew it was coming and there was a lot of preparation and help to get people into it. You had all kinds of conversion articles for moving your existing characters and campaign into the new rules set. There were articles that explained how bits and pieces of the new game system worked like feats, a look at new class abilities, new monsters, etc.
...
Unlike the long lead in to 3rd edition, we get a surprise announcement and some horrible YouTube videos to usher in the big news.
I believe the run-up to 4e will be very well-documented in Dragon. There will almost certainly be ads for 4e placed in FLGS's everywhere. If they don't already, I imagine it won't take much longer for anyone who might be interested in 4e to know that it's coming. And I expect a bunch of articles on WotC's Web site providing insight and sneak peeks into new feats, class abilities, monsters, and other 4e-isms. You're criticizing WotC for not having all these things in place, when they've just started and have nine months to go yet.
And as for contrasting the 3e and 4e introductions: the first time WotC talked about 3e at Gen Con was just as much a surprise as this one, and 4e has a plenty long lead-in ahead. They don't seem substantially different in either way.
Was WotC actively obfuscating the upcoming 3e announcement prior to Gen Con 1999? No, probably not. But then, nobody (or at least, hardly anybody) was asking them about a putative 3e back then, so they didn't have to, very unlike the situation prior to this year's Gen Con.