WotC has apparently posted the contents of the next "issue of Dungeon." Due to the disappearing D&D website phenomenon, I only have this second hand, but it's a reliable source (Merric).
Iggwilv’s Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
By Edward Albert, Ari Marmell, and C.A. SuleimanOne of the most ambitious projects to ever hit Dungeon, the classic 1st Edition module is freshly updated to D&D 3.5. Plus, the adventure features a new prelude and a follow-up adventure that takes the PCs to Tsojcanth’s lair.
Hell’s Heart
By Nicolas LogueThe three-part Eberron adventure series that began with “Chimes at Midnight� in issue #133 and continued with “Quoth the Raven� in issue #150 concludes in this chilling visit to Sharn’s sanitarium. A final showdown is brewing in the dark, depraved depths of the asylum, and if the PCs aren’t up to the task, the chaos inside the walls of Hell’s Heart could erupt to engulf the city.
Plus, Dungeoncraft, Save My Game, and even more!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dungeon
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Hell's Heart
By Nicolas LogueThe three-part Eberron adventure series that began with Chimes at Midnight? in issue #133 and continued with Quoth the Raven? in issue #150 concludes in this chilling visit to Sharn's sanitarium. A final showdown is brewing in the dark, depraved depths of the asylum, and if the PCs aren't up to the task, the chaos inside the walls of Hell's Heart could erupt to engulf the city.
Damn you Logue!!!
You're gonna make me buy this 1 issue just to get the last installment.
;)
Damn you Logue!!!
You're gonna make me buy this 1 issue just to get the last installment.
;)
.
I heard that the D&D Insider is going to be free for the first couple of months. I believe the 2007 entry is going to be free, although that doesn't necessarily mean free Dragon/Dungeon access. After that $9.95/month for all of the D&D Insider stuff.It starts in October, so if the info is accurate that about 3 months of content.
No, no, no kid. The first one you always give away for free.
Then you see who comes back.
"Then I start charging?"
Hell's Heart
By Nicolas LogueThe three-part Eberron adventure series that began with Chimes at Midnight? in issue #133 and continued with Quoth the Raven? in issue #150 concludes in this chilling visit to Sharn's sanitarium. A final showdown is brewing in the dark, depraved depths of the asylum, and if the PCs aren't up to the task, the chaos inside the walls of Hell's Heart could erupt to engulf the city.
Damn you Logue!!!
You're gonna make me buy this 1 issue just to get the last installment.
;)
Just to let everyone know, I desperately wanted to write this as a free web supplement for Paizo before they lost the license. However, there was no time to put it together before the license went bye-bye. I really wanted to finish the arc and have a chance to work with Chris Thomasson again (he gave me my break!). So yeah, I am very excited about finishing this (SO OVER DEADLINE! GAH!)
So yeah, I am very excited about finishing this (SO OVER DEADLINE! GAH!)
If it's not breaking anything, what level is this for? My guess would be 10th or so?
So yeah, I am very excited about finishing this (SO OVER DEADLINE! GAH!)If it's not breaking anything, what level is this for? My guess would be 10th or so?
Your guess would be good!
151 ?!!! They're going to pretend that they are "continuing" Dungeon? As if they had anything to do with what came before or that what going forward is in anyway related to what came before? They kill something of high quality created by someone else and then try to transfer that good name to themselves? They've got some balls.
Hold on...WotC did originally publish Dungeon when 3.0 came out and many of the staff members of WotC once worked for Paizo and helped the magazine become what it is today. Many of the Paizo staff seem to have their name stamped on the online issues as well (*cough* Logue *cough* James).
Let's stick to the point. Dungeon is no longer a physical product and that sucks!
I don't care what crap WOTC spews out. We all know that the real gold standard is right here at Paizo.
Let's stick to the point. Dungeon is no longer a physical product and that sucks!
Hear, hear!
-The Gneech
151 ?!!! They're going to pretend that they are "continuing" Dungeon? As if they had anything to do with what came before or that what going forward is in anyway related to what came before? They kill something of high quality created by someone else and then try to transfer that good name to themselves? They've got some balls.
They're not pretending: they are doing exactly what they said they would do.
Does anyone remember the hype that happened when WotC got rid of Dungeon and Dragon by creating a piddling little no-name company called Paizo. Oh no! The magazines are doomed! No one cares anymore! Wah! I don't even know how to pronounce the name!
Then we realized the same authors and editors were moving over, too. Then we saw how great a job they did.
I would not be surprised to see something similar, here. We have many of the same authors publishing articles in the online magazines, and we could very well be very appreciative two years from now for the format.
I think Wizards is going to do a smash-up job (Granted, not quite as great as Paizo, I'm sure, but up there. ;) ).
Chief Technical Officer
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Does anyone remember the hype that happened when WotC got rid of Dungeon and Dragon by creating a piddling little no-name company called Paizo.
Just to be clear, Wizards did not create us—we created ourselves. We have always been an independent company, and Wizards does not and has not ever had any ownership or managerial control in Paizo. (We just started by taking over their magazines and hiring a bunch of their employees.)
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151 ?!!! They're going to pretend that they are "continuing" Dungeon? As if they had anything to do with what came before or that what going forward is in anyway related to what came before? They kill something of high quality created by someone else and then try to transfer that good name to themselves? They've got some balls.
...Gygax's basement...
...TSR......WotC...
...Paizo...
...WotC.
They own the good name of both, the contents promise to be extremely similar to the last four years of both mags, and many of our Favored Paozoites are contributors...
Just out of interest, will the adventures for the online version have to be written in the delve format, or the original format? Anyone know?
Delve/Tactical Encounter Format. Correct sir.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Then we realized the same authors and editors were moving over, too. Then we saw how great a job they did.
Just to be clear, the "same editors" are very much not a part of the editorial staff of the digital initiative. That's going to result in a very different editorial approach, as this table of contents proves, since it includes material that was rejected for print publication.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, or that the editorial approach of the DI staff won't be impressive in its own way.
But unlike the transition from WotC to Paizo five years ago, the editorial staff is completely changing, and it's not necessarily safe to assume "business as usual."
--Erik
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Then we realized the same authors and editors were moving over, too. Then we saw how great a job they did.
But unlike the transition from WotC to Paizo five years ago, the editorial staff is completely changing, and it's not necessarily safe to assume "business as usual."
--Erik
I think it will be a very long time until WoTC sees anything as "business as usual". Paizo has done nothing short of a brilliant job, to attempt this on line and package it to tie in to 4.0 as well as D&D online shows where the NEW (*joke*) publications will go. Certainly not the same direction, it seems obvious that it's all part of a marketing strategy that WoTC has been so often accused of; change the product and require those who hope to stay in the game to shell out more money to stay up to date.
Not only am I not optomistic, I'm still outraged about the whole damn thing.Drive on Paizoites, I'm right behind you!
Yuk!
Yeah...it's not my favorite format...it has it's own advantages, but is SEVERELY limiting as relates to adventure format and preclude a lot of really interesting types of encounters (chase scenes for one, ANY encounter where the players actions prior to or during combat may alter who is friend and who is foe...digest that one for a bit.)
Not a fan of the delve format, it's one of the main reasons I haven't purchased any adventures from WotC in awhile . . .
I'm not happy with Delve format either, and was really happy when Paizo said they weren't going to it. I bought WIzards Cormyr and Shadowdale moduals, and I've basicaly had to create a new game using the story they had. I'm sure the format is great for a new DM, but I like more flexibility in my games.
Yuk!Yeah...it's not my favorite format...it has it's own advantages, but is SEVERELY limiting as relates to adventure format and preclude a lot of really interesting types of encounters (chase scenes for one, ANY encounter where the players actions prior to or during combat may alter who is friend and who is foe...digest that one for a bit.)
Sure, it cuts out the shades of gray and makes everything black and white. And I like shades of gray.
OK, thanks Nick. I'll probably avoid subscribing then. (I'm not a fan of the format, either.)
Well, from what I understand you can scope it out for free (and get Hell's Heart for free too), then decide. That at least is good.
Delve/Tactical Encounter Format. Correct sir.
I might be missing something (but from the way you guys give your opinions, maybe it's a good thing), but what exactly is the delve format . . . where has it been used, and what makes it so different from what I'm used to?
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I have to say, I like the Delve format. I think it speeds up the encounter, makes it extremely easy for the DM, and I don't see it as limiting, because as soon as you need to move away from it, you can. Not to mention, if I don't like the way it's set up to begin with (an individual encounter), I can quickly change it ahead of time--or even on the fly--because it's a format.
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Delve/Tactical Encounter Format. Correct sir.I might be missing something (but from the way you guys give your opinions, maybe it's a good thing), but what exactly is the delve format . . . where has it been used, and what makes it so different from what I'm used to?
Here's a pretty good explanation of the Delve Format.
I have to say, I like the Delve format. I think it speeds up the encounter, makes it extremely easy for the DM, and I don't see it as limiting, because as soon as you need to move away from it, you can. Not to mention, if I don't like the way it's set up to begin with (an individual encounter), I can quickly change it ahead of time--or even on the fly--because it's a format.
The problem is that, while you and I can move away from it, Dungeon writers can't. The encounter must fit on one or two pages. If it can't the encounter must be changed so it can.
The real weakness is that its very difficult to have many different creatures in an encounter. Note that the example Delve involves the players entering a series of rooms each of which only has one type of creature.
Two examples of where this format fall down is the opposing adventuring group. The Delve format can't handle an adventuring party because their stat blocks would be too large. Another obvious example would be the evil wizard with his guards. Wizard stat blocks are big, there is little room for him to have a couple of different types of minions and yet Wizards work a lot better if the players can't concentrate on them. These are just examples as well - there are all sorts of encounters that might need more types of monsters. In fact interesting synergies between monsters can make some of the most memorable encounters for the players.
Now there really is a limit to how many confusing bad guys should be in an encounter. I've gone over that limit more then once and I inevitably realize that I forgot all sorts of good things the bad guys could have done and I end up flipping pages like crazy trying to figure out who is up next and what they are going to do this round. When the DM is confused and overwhelmed thats not good for the game.
Still there is a happy medium and trying to force things onto one or even two pages is overly restrictive. A better idea would be a layout meant to cover no more then say 4 pages most of which won't have a map on them. Probably if the DM needs access to 6 or more pages then the encounter is too complicated and the chances of it going off really well drops dramatically.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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OK, thanks Nick. I'll probably avoid subscribing then. (I'm not a fan of the format, either.)Well, from what I understand you can scope it out for free (and get Hell's Heart for free too), then decide. That at least is good.
Whew, Logue Adventure for free is awesome by me =)
I really wasn't having a go earlier either Nick, sorry if you took it that way. I realize that it WOULD have been in a Paizo Dragon, but just missed the boat. Take it as compliment that I was gonna actually buy the Wizards Digital "Dungeon" (and I use the term loosely).
=)
Here's a pretty good explanation of the Delve Format.
I do immensely(x50) dislike the Delve format, having run games using it, and running games using the previous format. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was nice, but the Delve format made it a complete mess to run. It does take up too much page-room when compared to the previous format (such as that used in Red Hand of Doom or RttToEE), and sometimes makes it feel more like a war-game than an RPG.
Also, the delve format usually involves me constantly flipping between three or four different pages when running combat. Decription appears in the first section where it details the rooms, and it's contents, and then there's more/different descriptions in the combat encounter sections. Sometimes you have to go further back in the book for a creature's stat, whilst also using the stats in the encounter page, and very occasionally a stat that appears in the exploration & text page!
Althoughs saying all that, I do like the tables in the delve format which detail the different terrains and inanimate objects, their contributions, and the like.
Still, I just greatly prefer the older format, and likewise the older stat blocks compared to the newer ones (even though the latter have been in use for 2-3 years now!).
...The real weakness is that its very difficult to have many different creatures in an encounter. Note that the example Delve involves the players entering a series of rooms each of which only has one type of creature...
Jeremy did (IMO) and excellent job of describing the inadequacy of the format.
I sincerely believe that WotC's marketing plan is geared toward generating sales of miniatures, and that the Delve format is designed to encourage play with minis. If it hurts (or eliminates) the roleplaying, why should they care?
JSND: Just say No to Delve!
Regards,
Jack
I sincerely believe that WotC's marketing plan is geared toward generating sales of miniatures, and that the Delve format is designed to encourage play with minis. If it hurts (or eliminates) the roleplaying, why should they care?
Not entirely sure why it would hurt or even eliminate roleplaying. I've been using battlemats and miniatures since 1st Ed. Maybe I too left-brained, but I've always preferred having a visual component to battles to help me imagine what's going on. And I think we do pretty well with roleplaying too.
Now, maybe the delve format discourages roleplaying with new players, but for those of us who have been around the block a few times, I don't think it matters, one way or the other.
Now, I understand that it tends to hamstring writers a bit, and granted, I haven't run a "delve" encounter yet, but I've read enough examples to know that if I want the bad guys to talk to PCs first, before attacking, that I don't see anything in the delve format that prevents that. It may suggest differently, but I always take into account the current situation before deciding whether the bad guys follow what's dictated in the module, or whether I deviate from what's printed. But then, that's what I thought the job of the DM was, in the first place.
Greg
Not entirely sure why it would hurt or even eliminate roleplaying.
Because, in my case, I'm so busy flipping back and forth between the various pages that I can't think straight. Finally I just throw up my hands and say, "they attack!" just so that I can stop flipping for a few minutes.
Not entirely sure why it would hurt or even eliminate roleplaying.Because, in my case, I'm so busy flipping back and forth between the various pages that I can't think straight. Finally I just throw up my hands and say, "they attack!" just so that I can stop flipping for a few minutes.
Is this because the tactical part is separate from the original room description? I don't own a "Delve" format adventure (although Exp to Ruins of Greyhawk is in the mail) so I don't know where the flipping is involved. I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that all information needed to run the combat was in the delve-formatted pages.
Not true?
Greg
Is this because the tactical part is separate from the original room description? I don't own a "Delve" format adventure (although Exp to Ruins of Greyhawk is in the mail) so I don't know where the flipping is involved.
Greg, I just got my Greyhawk Expedition. Basically, the map of the "dungeon level" will be on one page, with the room description 10-20 pages later in some cases, and the delve format room map & stats on yet another page, in most cases like 5-10 pages further along. So to go from the corridor to the room to the encounter requires 3 different flippings.
What about fold-out encounters...? Everything on one three pane fold-out. Still doesn't help with a magazine layout, but it's more reasonable to pullout a 20-22" trifold sheet than four-six books with Post-Its.
I'd just keep them separate and key them to the encounters. Make it so that the material in the Delve Format is not actually meant to be kept with the book but is supposed to be pulled out using perforated paper. You could put the encounter key on the fold out and use both the back and the front. Maybe have one side for the map and inanimate objects as well as tactics and everything else needed to run the encounter while the other side has the stat blocks. Otherwise I like the idea of fold out triple size paper.
Its not the concept of easier to run encounters that I am against but any time good writers are smacking into walls trying to make their encounters fit then its just to restrictive. WotC should have taken note and went back to the drawing board on this, it was not ready to be implemented beyond Gen Con style tournaments.
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I've run a couple sessions with the delve for my group. The delve takes a few moments to get used to ... it's definately different if you're used to the old 1st edition format (yes I've been playing that long too), but I found that my only "flipping" was for room description info. The best merit for this new format was the day I was running late to my own game -- car troubles -- the new format saved me a lot of needless searching when I was pretty stressed.
My group is pretty veteran, so role playing is just natural. Like any change the format is nothing more than a tool ... use is well or use it poorly.
I'm not too crazy about the changes at WOTC for 4th edition and won't probably be buying it, but I do like the delve format ... my big hope is that Paizo will continue publishing for 3.5 after the WOTC upgrade.
Well, I finally got published in DUNGEON (#151) and I didn't even know that was who I was writing for. I updated "The Lost Caverns" for WotC, but had no idea what they were planning on doing with it. I was under the impression that it would be like the "Return to the Temple of the Frog" adventure I wrote for them a while back and be one of their online adventures that they post from time to time.
My understanding is, and the way I wrote it, it is in the same format as "Return to the Temple of the Frog". I've been told that it is the last non tactical format adventure that they plan on publishing.
I've been off line due to a move from OK to CA, and the movers dropped and broke my computer, so I am just today getting the 4ed news and just learned of my update to "The Lost Caverns" being published in DUNGEON 151.
ASEO (Edward Albert) out
Greg, I just got my Greyhawk Expedition. Basically, the map of the "dungeon level" will be on one page, with the room description 10-20 pages later in some cases, and the delve format room map & stats on yet another page, in most cases like 5-10 pages further along. So to go from the corridor to the room to the encounter requires 3 different flippings.
Ok, that does sound like a pain in the a$$. But could they organize it better (making level maps pull outs, for example, like in RttoEE)? Dunno. Looking forward to my copy, anyway.
Greg
My understanding is, and the way I wrote it, it is in the same format as "Return to the Temple of the Frog". I've been told that it is the last non tactical format adventure that they plan on publishing. ASEO (Edward Albert) out
Aseo,
I've seen the Temple of the Frog update, but not having read the original, don't really know the differences between the two. Is the Tsojanth update you did a re-write of the original, or an updating of the setting (not just the rules) - that is, 20 years later, sort of thing?
Thanks,
Greg
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Well, I finally got published in DUNGEON (#151) and I didn't even know that was who I was writing for. I updated "The Lost Caverns" for WotC, but had no idea what they were planning on doing with it. I was under the impression that it would be like the "Return to the Temple of the Frog" adventure I wrote for them a while back and be one of their online adventures that they post from time to time.
My understanding is, and the way I wrote it, it is in the same format as "Return to the Temple of the Frog". I've been told that it is the last non tactical format adventure that they plan on publishing.
I've been off line due to a move from OK to CA, and the movers dropped and broke my computer, so I am just today getting the 4ed news and just learned of my update to "The Lost Caverns" being published in DUNGEON 151.
ASEO (Edward Albert) out
Wow! You updated TotF?! I love the original, but the updated version is superior! great job. I am definitely looking forward to LCoT, especially now that I know who updated it. Great work!
and just learned of my update to "The Lost Caverns" being published in DUNGEON 151.
ASEO (Edward Albert) out
Congrats!! I look forward to seeing it, because the that was one of my favorite 1e modules.
[Ok, that does sound like a pain in the a$$. But could they organize it better (making level maps pull outs, for example, like in RttoEE)? Dunno. Looking forward to my copy, anyway.
It could have been a LOT easier if they had put all the level maps as pull-outs, or inside the covers (kinda like in the 1e days), and then done one of two things with the delve pages:
(1) placed each delve page as the page facing the room description (optimal, in my opinion); or(2) put ALL of the delve pages at the end, instead of inserting them on a chapter-by-chapter basis in small groups.
"The Lost Caverns" is an update of the 1st ed version to 3.5ed. Same map, same creatures (all be it 3.5ed and I tried to keep things fresh with some creativity) Like what was done with the White Plume MT rewrite.
"The Return to the Temple of the Frog" takes place like 20 years after the 1st ed adventure. If you haven't checked it out, please do. It is Free!
ASEO out
Aseo,
I've seen the Temple of the Frog update, but not having read the original, don't really know the differences between the two. Is the Tsojanth update you did a re-write of the original, or an updating of the setting (not just the rules) - that is, 20 years later, sort of thing?
Thanks,
Greg
I think that the 1ed "Temple of the Frog" is or at least used to be available as a free download on the Wizards site...As is the "Return to" adventure I wrote
ASEO out
I think that the 1ed "Temple of the Frog" is or at least used to be available as a free download on the Wizards site...As is the "Return to" adventure I wroteASEO out
It certainly used to be available. I read it and made come comments regarding using it as the basis for a d20 modern (future) adventure on this thread.
The Return to the Temple of the Frog Adventure can be found here.
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I think that the 1ed "Temple of the Frog" is or at least used to be available as a free download on the Wizards site...As is the "Return to" adventure I wroteASEO out
It certainly used to be available. I read it and made come comments regarding using it as the basis for a d20 modern (future) adventure on this thread.
The Return to the Temple of the Frog Adventure can be found here.
Here is a link to the pre-3E downloads WotC offers. Sadly, I don't see the original Temple of the Frog in there anywhere.