What is the chance we will see some Elf and Dwarf nations that are still powerful? I am tired of the "fading remnants of once powerful people" BS I see in almost every game system. For that matter, how about some powerful Giant/Ogre nations?
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I aqree. I also would like to see an Elvish Nation that does not feel they are on a much higher level than the other races. I do understand that it comes with the territory of living for so long but it is such a repeating theme. I would also like to see some Elven NPCs who are actually old for Elves. Their leaders should be Yoda - at least 800 years old.
Just some thoughts...
Peace all...
What is the chance we will see some Elf and Dwarf nations that are still powerful? I am tired of the "fading remnants of once powerful people" BS I see in almost every game system. For that matter, how about some powerful Giant/Ogre nations?
I think you'll definitely be getting your wish on the powerful Giant/Ogre nations...at least with Rise of the Runelords, the giants are in play.
As for the Elven and Dwarven nations, I agree. I too would like to see something "different" than the "in retreat" presentation that gets slapped across entire campaign worlds. I can understand a specific kingdom of elves or dwarves that's "in retreat" or starting to diminish. But give me some that are not only sustaining, but growing, too.
My two-cents,
--Neil
I disagree.
I've just written on ENWorld how the best thing about Hollow's Last Hope (which I admit I've only glanced through so far) is its fairy-tale atmosphere, which seems to be strong elsewhere in Varisia: the new twist on goblins, the Sandpoint Devil (notice how it's referred to as *the* Sandpoint Devil, not a Sandpoint Devil species)...
Elves in retreat and dwarves in isolation are very much a part of that atmosphere. Seeing as how elves and dwarves don't exist in the real world, people who at least half-believed they did when they were making stories about them had to make up reasons why they were so seldom seen.
So in traditional stories, elves are mostly hiding or gone or cannot be seen except by blonde virgins of pure heart on Mondays by moonlight. They most definitely don't have strong, vital, active nations right side by side with humans.
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Probably not the place to put this but Eberron has strong racial nations, including not only dwarves and elves, but goblinoids, monsters, fiends, gnomes, halflings...
Though I too would like to see a different handling of elves/dwarves in Pathfinder-verse. At the very least, if elves are in retreat, have a decent story why...
My personal preference would be say that the faerie-world or fey in general are in retreat...hence, sprites, nymphs, dryads, and even the revised gnomes (sorry, Mike!) could be the ones with a reduced presence or a "hard-to-find" theme. That way, if you stumble across something fey, you've truly found something unique, because they're getting more and more rare in Golarion and/or Varisia...
Meanwhile, elves (which in D&D terms are generally not faerie-esque) and do not receive the fey subtype, are left as humanoids capable of having vibrant kingdoms just as easily as anyone else. Same for dwarves. That would be my spin, at least. I have no idea what direction the Paizo crew intends...
--Neil
Creative Director
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Although elves, gnomes, and the rest of the demi-human crew are not in retreat in our world... Varisia is very much a humanocentric region. Humans are the primary race in the area, and while there are elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes and half-elves and half-orcs... there aren't many of them. (Although there's certainly enough of them that if a player makes a character from these races, they won't really turn heads or be considered a "freak" if he does.) The racial mix will certainly change up in other regions of the world.
The default in D&D is that humans are the most numerous, widespread, etc. race; the trick lies in explaining it. In certain settings, a decline/retreat background may work (unfortunately, it's been overused since Tolkien's Middle Earth, which had a strong mythological and historical basis for it and it made it a central theme).
IMO, you can just make non-human races a little insular (the dwarves prefer to stay in the mountains, the elves in the woods, etc.). Even the halflings, which traditionally have been more integrated in human societies, would prefer to stay in their own sub-communities in human towns (similar to the way many "ethnic quarters" form in cities in the real world). Depending on the setting, you could even go as far as to make certain races isolationist (although that's been slightly overdone, also *cough*Krynn*cough*).
That's all fine and dandy if you're wanting to stick to the traditional fantasy settings, but I agree, having strong Elf and Dwarf nations would be a nice change of pace.
My impression is that the Pathfinder world is going to be (in many ways) a traditional fantasy setting, of which I would heartily approve.
When too many go off the beaten path, that becomes the new beaten path.
IMO, a fresh, new, intelligent take on traditional tropes (cf. goblins!) would be much more interesting to see than trying to be original and non-traditional for its own sake and without the backing in myth and legend that you get when you go with traditional.
IMO, you can just make non-human races a little insular (the dwarves prefer to stay in the mountains, the elves in the woods, etc.).
Of course! I'm not necessarily arguing for an actual retreat schtick like in Tolkien. Neither would I want, for D&D, the insularity be such that you cannot play a dwarf or that people don't know what an elf is.
But I don't like it when elves or dwarves seem like just another human nation or subrace, with no... detachment? from normal people.
For example, Eberron elves include both approaches, and while I've wanted to play an Aerenal or Valenar elf, it has hardly occured to me to play a Khorvairian elf.
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Creative Director
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Thank you for the information James, but if you do not mind me asking, what was yours and Team Paizo's reasoning behind the decision to make non humans less numerous? Was it simply to stay close to Greyhawk or FR?
Also, why are humans more numerous? Could it just be explained by a better reproductive system? Due to wars where Human nations were either not attacked (no human deaths) or where the attackers (killed non humans)?
If non-humans are not as numerous, does this mean that they prefer to stay in their own lands (xenophobia, protection, other reasons)? Also, does this mean most humans are not used to having non-humans around (which could lead to racism)?
Humans are more numerous because its humans who are playing the game. They're the easiest to relate to, and the least difficult to write stories about. Even when you get to close-to-human races, like elves or halflings, things change dramatically. I want demi-humans (and demi-human nations) to feel inhuman in a way, otherwise they're just humans who are different heights. Elves, for example, don't sleep. Does that mean that an elven in doesn't have any beds? How is the nightlife in an elven city? And halflings are super short; their realms should be equally sized for little guys, which raises all sorts of implcations.
All of that makes things more fantastic, which ironically makes the fantasic elements of the game more mundane. By focusing on humanocentric regions, we keep things like elves and halflings more special. They certainly don't shy away from human regions, though, and humans are certainly used to having them around in most cases.
Greyhawk's a good example of how we'll be handling the whole thing, though.
In any event, we will have in-game reasons for why humans are more prelavent and the demi-human races aren't in most regions. Those reasons are too lengthy and still being worked out thoguh, and are beyond the scope of an email post, especailly when I need to get back to working on Dungeon #150...
I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about how the demihumans are treated. I will point out, though, that I found the treatment of humans in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved to be quite refreshing! The most numerous race, sure, but clearly not the dominant race. Nor even the most interesting, to be honest. That was masterful on Monte's part, in my opinion...
It sounds like demihumans are in good hands. I'd hate to see elves and dwarves (and halfings and gnomes) genericized and made mundane. They are unique races with unique cultures and points of view. Personally, I enjoy the traditional fantasy schtick...that's probably why I like D&D. If I liked the idea of elves and dwarves just being shorter or stockier humans that the PCs bump into while riding the "magic" subway on the way to work, I'd probably play a different system altogether instead of injecting cyberpunk or steampunk elements into an inconcruous setting.
I like how Pathfinder and the Gamemastery modules so far seem to be respecting the traditional tropes while still putting a unique spin on them. I wouldn't mind seeing an Elf kingdom portrayed similar to the Wood Elves in Tolkien's The Hobbit. To me they seemed different from the elves portrayed in the trilogy. They were less perfect, yet equally alien. I liked that. And it seems likely that a group of people who live for hundreds of years and don't have to sleep probably would seem very alien to us.
Oh, and I don't think they've been *officially* called demihumans since the pre-3.0 editions. I used the term with a younger player recently and he had no idea what a "demihuman" was...
I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about how the demihumans are treated. I will point out, though, that I found the treatment of humans in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved to be quite refreshing! The most numerous race, sure, but clearly not the dominant race. Nor even the most interesting, to be honest. That was masterful on Monte's part, in my opinion...
An old RPG called Earthdawn did something similar. Humans were numerous, but were mostly found in small villages or the various city states, while the only true kingdom was the dwarven kingdom of Throal. The elven kingdom had shattered (due to the Elven Court performing the Ritual of Thorns) and most elves were now intergrating into human and dwarven society. The elves were still very numerous, but the sense of passing associated with them was due to the fall of their kingdom.
I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about how the demihumans are treated. I will point out, though, that I found the treatment of humans in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved to be quite refreshing! The most numerous race, sure, but clearly not the dominant race. Nor even the most interesting, to be honest. That was masterful on Monte's part, in my opinion...An old RPG called Earthdawn did something similar. Humans were numerous, but were mostly found in small villages or the various city states, while the only true kingdom was the dwarven kingdom of Throal. The elven kingdom had shattered (due to the Elven Court performing the Ritual of Thorns) and most elves were now intergrating into human and dwarven society. The elves were still very numerous, but the sense of passing associated with them was due to the fall of their kingdom.
That sounds quite interesting. Especially given that dwarves and not elves were the premier race. Wasn't Earthdawn one of the three finalists for WOTC's last setting search (which Eberron won)? Or am I thinking of...Dawnforge?? Something like that.
No, Earthdawn was an old RPG produced by FASA back in the 1980s. It had its on game system where everone as an Adept of somekind (a class that used magic in some way, ranging from spellcasters to archers that could mark their targets to weaponsmiths that could temporarily boost a weapon's sharpness).
The background was simple, as the cycle of magic rose, creatures known as horrors breach the world from astral space. To survive, people retreated into kaers or citadels sealed with elemental magic provided by the dragons. After 100's of year's the magic level dropped and people could return to the surface of the world and start to rebuild. Three kingdoms survived the Scourge. Thera (the bad guys, based loosely on the Roman Empire), the dwarf kingdom of Throal, and the elven kingdom. However the elves survived by using Ritual of Thorns to bind elemental wood to them. The ritual twisted them and their forest kingdom into the Blood Woods. Those elves that survived outside of the woods were horrified at what the elven court had done and refused to recognize their rule anymore. Plus many had become part of human and dwarven society during the Scourge.
Thraxus, thanks for that detailed description. I've come to enjoy the more non-standard fantasy worlds as time goes by.
Mike, thanks for the correction. I knew "dawn" was the common theme :)