RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Alright, I've seen a few comments and questions relating to how Bugbears will be treated in Pathfinder.
All of the other common "baddies" have a niche/role. IMO, the Bugbear has always been underrated and underutilized because it lacked that quality that made them stand out.
This has been bugging me for quite some time now.
Big hairy goblinoids - there is a lot of potential here. Any ideas?
Anyone at Paizo willing to share?
I got more questions for you;
Bugbears are Big and nasty, right. And the picture in the MM has the Bugbear with this Big shield and an even Bigger Morningstar.
So why does it list their favorite class as Rogue?
Creative Director
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We've got a bugbear in "Burnt Offerings." In my eye, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are all pretty much the same thing, in small, medium, and beefy sizes. If goblins are the evil little gremlins, then hobgoblins are the more civilized and organized evil, and bugbears are the bruisers and thugs in the family.
In my eye, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are all pretty much the same thing, in small, medium, and beefy sizes.
didn't one of the 2e settings (I am thinking maybe Birthright)literaly make them such?
Bugbears are nice and all, but hobgoblins have got to be my favorite of the stereotypical "badguy" humanoids. I think it's the lawful and militant bent--it's easy to picture these guys are legionaries or samurai and carving out their own nation comparable to that of a human civilization.
I have to wonder though, what will orcs be doing? Is there room for two medium goblinoids?
Bugbears are at or near the top of the antagonist species chain in my games. They'll try to intimidate most orcs, bully goblins and hobgoblins, and only cower to something stronger or larger than they are, or magical in nature. The female bugbear shamans and witch doctors are the worst. If you don't think a bugbear is a terrifying foe, think of a bugbear the size of Shaquille O'Neil. Yeah.
I got more questions for you;
Bugbears are Big and nasty, right. And the picture in the MM has the Bugbear with this Big shield and an even Bigger Morningstar.
So why does it list their favorite class as Rogue?
What? You've never played a "Brute" Rogue? They're the type of rogue that prefers to max out ranks in Intimidate before they think about putting ranks into Bluff. Yes, they're not as common, but they are out there.
I got more questions for you;
Bugbears are Big and nasty, right. And the picture in the MM has the Bugbear with this Big shield and an even Bigger Morningstar.
So why does it list their favorite class as Rogue?What? You've never played a "Brute" Rogue? They're the type of rogue that prefers to max out ranks in Intimidate before they think about putting ranks into Bluff. Yes, they're not as common, but they are out there.
I don't have a PHB handy (and I guess I'm too lazy to look at the online SRD) but don't Bugbears get racial bonuses to move silently and/or hide?
Besides, that big morningstar hurts even more when it gets swung two handed into your head for some sneak attack damage by the Bugbear that just snuck up on you...
But if it was swapped so that they had Barbarian as the favored class, that would be fit too. (Making it fighter steps on the hobgoblin's toes, ditto for making it Ranger (Gnolls)... although I guess making it Barbarian would steal the Orcs' thunder...)
We just got art on these guys and some other races in today. They're kind of like the love children of goblins and NFL football teams... big, hairy, toothy, hairy... you get the idea.
I have to wonder though, what will orcs be doing? Is there room for two medium goblinoids?
Actually, in D&D, and OGL, orcs aren't goblinoids. :-)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It might be the eberron influence, but I've always liked the idea of Hobgoblins being the remnant of an empire, with the orcs being more of a mongrel hoarde.
Think of it as an analouge of Asia in the dark ages. The hobgoblins are the Kievan Russians, who were devistated by the mongols. They're still the heirs of a rich tradition, but it's gone. They've seen their kin, goblins, descend into depravity, but still cling to their martial ways trying to rebuild what was lost.
I have to wonder though, what will orcs be doing? Is there room for two medium goblinoids?Actually, in D&D, and OGL, orcs aren't goblinoids. :-)
I believe Bf713 was refering to hobgoblins and bugbears (which are both medium sized gobliniods, although bugbears are on the extreem large end of medium).
Actually, in D&D, and OGL, orcs aren't goblinoids. :-)
Yeah, did anyone else always think that was weird?
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Creative Director
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Orcs will remain separate in our world; they're just too different looking and acting to be goblins. I'm not sure WHAT we'll be doing with orcs yet... we've certainly got places for them in the world (there's a lot of them living in the Hold of Belkzen to the east of Varisia, for example), but they'll certainly be different than goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears.
Looking forward to bugbears that are interesting for the first time ever.
At the moment, I've totally removed bugbears from my game -- sort of. They aren't called bugbears and they look like owl-headed men with the same crunch. Much spookier and they're the servants of an extinct (?) group of eeeevil shadow/mirror wizards.
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Orcs will remain separate in our world; they're just too different looking and acting to be goblins. I'm not sure WHAT we'll be doing with orcs yet... we've certainly got places for them in the world (there's a lot of them living in the Hold of Belkzen to the east of Varisia, for example), but they'll certainly be different than goblins/hobgoblins/bugbears.
You could give orcs a different ecological niche.
Someone already mentioned in these boards that his orcs were plain dwelling critters (i.e. somewhat inspired by mongol hordes) while goblins covered different niches. To make them stand out more clearly (and not just another form of goblin like e.g. in the FR), a different background story would make sense, though.Thinking about it: This sounds very much like back matter!
As soon as you finish describing the most important things about Varisia, you could e.g. do some kind of "goblinoid ecology" detailing the various goblinoid cultures, their favourite pets (you already presented some), habits (similar to what you described in the by now famous goblin song blog entry), a few new feats, skill uses, tactical information, outlook on life and other races in special, maybe a lair. All of this combined defining them more clearly both in game terms and in background story. I would really love such a treatment: It would once and for all give monsters "3 dimensionality"/ plasticity.
Just a few musings.
Greetings,
Günther
I've always viewed the Goblin, Hobgoblin, and Bugbear breakdown as follows:
Goblins - Neutral evil alignment. Favored class: Rogue. Weakest of the goblinoid species. Most opportunistic. Fight or flight reflex fully in force. Flighty when outnumbered, but vicious when not. Establishes hideaways in any location that offers safety and opportunity for misdeeds against a weaker species. Selfish, spiteful, and cruel. Willing to sacrifice anyone and anything except their own hides.
Hobgoblins - Lawful evil alignment. Favored class: Fighter. The middle brother of the species. Smartest of the bunch. More organized. Builders of fortified settlements. Ruthless and totalitarian outlook on life. Honorable enough to stand and fight in most circumstances. Looks down on the cowardly goblins, but won't hesitate to use them as fodder in any conflict. Respects and even fears their bugbear cousins, but only because such creatures are individually powerful and collectively horde-like on the battlefield. Bugbears may smash or pull off a brilliant ambush, but hobgoblins are smart enough to carry off every other possible battlefield tactic in between.
Bugbears - Chaotic evil alignment. Favored class: Barbarian (NOT Rogue!). Strongest of the goblinoid species. Might makes right. Bear-like in physiology and mentality (especially when enraged). Organized into loose tribes. Brutal raiders who take by force, but only after launching a well-prepared ambush. Possess a mean streak with the muscle to back it up. Just as likely to kill you as take you prisoner. And if you do get captured, they're just as likely to eat you as enslave or ransom you. Followers of Hruggek, who delights in ambushes followed by furious combat...which is my personal justification for honoring the "Rogue"-aspects of their OGL-documented favored class, while reinterpreting it as Barbarian instead.
My two-cents,
--Neil
I like your breakdown Neil, and have something quite similar in my campaign world. What I struggle with is justifying how the organized (and technically superior to humans) hobgoblins and stronger, sneakier bugbears don't rule the world. I also like the idea of the goblinoids being the evolutionary offshoots of a common ancestor, predating the arrival of the common races. But what is their tragic flaw? What has kept them from being masters of Varisia?
This ties into my reluctance to assign a Lawful or even Neutral alignment to evil humanoid races. Without inherent chaos, you have an inevitable tendency towards civilization.
Since Keith Baker used the idea of a Hobgoblin civilization destroyed by cataclysm ion Eberron, what fresh ideas can we think of for the goblinoids of Varisia and beyond?
Maybe hobgoblins have an inherent fear of fire, unlike their pyro little cousins. Maybe bugbears lack the knack for building, or have no patience for farming. Any other ideas?
Cheers
Contributor
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In my homebrew, I've done the same thing to the goblinoids- goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all parts of the same race.
As to why they haven't conquered the world, basically they are just recently coming to power. For too long the big mean Bugbears and small, sneaky goblins have shattered any hope of a united goblin empire, despite the best intentions of the Hobgoblins.
Finally, a strong Hobgoblin Warlord managed to keep all the goblinoids in order long enough for them to accomplish something. The new empire is starting to take root and may well be the end of humanity, but it depends on the Chaotic nature of the bulk of goblinkind...
If we are discussing reasons why a unified Hobgoblin, Goblin, and Bugbear 'race' has a hard time gaining power at least enough to be politically realized -- I would offer 2 reasons:
1) Allies. I imagine the goblinoid race is a hard race to get along with. If they are led by hobgoblins, they are likely a militaristic race that must be in control of any alliance. They have no such connection or alliance as do the big 3 (Humans, Dwarves, Elves).
2) Magic. I am not saying that goblinoids cannot be adept at magic or master it. But for some reason, I have a hard time believing they have as many skilled users as, say, Elves and Humans. In the great span of things this is important because of the raw power of magic. As a footnote, it is true we do not imagine Dwarves as magical powers, but there inherent resistance to magic, probably levels the playing field with humans and elves.
just thinking out loud
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Nice NSpicer....I like your breakdown of the species.
I also agree with the above sentiments that Orcs are a completely different race and shouldn't be lumped in with goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears.
I think that it would make more sense to have "barbarian" be a bugbear's favorite class, than rogue. Rogue just doesn't quite fit for me - even the "thug" version of a rogue.
I hope the way they look gets reimagined - like the goblins were.
Any idea of where the name "bugbear" comes from?
I believe Bf713 was refering to hobgoblins and bugbears (which are both medium sized gobliniods, although bugbears are on the extreem large end of medium).
Actually I was referring to bugbears and orcs. I was wondering how all both would fit in as the chaotic evil goblinoid.
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Anything that is remotely described as big has favored class barbarian. Orc, ogre, etc.
Keeping it rogue for bugbears is much more interresting IMO. It changes their tactics completely as they try to flank opponents instead of raging and charging head-on. It fits their fluff better too, as they are greedy and favor ambushes. Goblinoids are also usually described as less feral than other humanoids race.
Anyway, favored class only affects multiclassing, so you can still have the cliche barbarian bugbear if you want.
Keeping it rogue for bugbears is much more interresting IMO. It changes their tactics completely as they try to flank opponents instead of raging and charging head-on. It fits their fluff better too, as they are greedy and favor ambushes. Goblinoids are also usually described as less feral than other humanoids race.
Ditto.
Keep in mind that the favoured classes were chosen from the Player's Handbook. With all the additional materials now available, new options are open.
Suppose bugbears were given Scout as their favoured class. That might alter things a bit.
Keep in mind that the favoured classes were chosen from the Player's Handbook. With all the additional materials now available, new options are open.
Suppose bugbears were given Scout as their favoured class. That might alter things a bit.
In theory yes, for those of us running the games. But for those publishing the material . . . I don't think scout is apart of the SRD/OGL/Whateva-the-rigamaroll thing-is yet.
Maybe bugbears lack the knack for building, or have no patience for farming.
That's actually a really great explanation for their failure to take over the human niche. They do seem to have the knack for building things, and can arm, militarize and fortify themselves, but if they lack patience for farming, then their settlements would never be able to grow too big before the social structure of the settlement starts breaking down.
If you add in the fact that humans were able to make allies with elves, dwarves, etc., then you have the perfect justification for how the combined goblinoids are not as successful as they should be.
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I like your breakdown Neil, and have something quite similar in my campaign world. What I struggle with is justifying how the organized (and technically superior to humans) hobgoblins and stronger, sneakier bugbears don't rule the world. I also like the idea of the goblinoids being the evolutionary offshoots of a common ancestor, predating the arrival of the common races. But what is their tragic flaw? What has kept them from being masters of Varisia?
But do they really need anything of the sort? Go ahead and give hobgoblins a nation, it makes sense. However, even with a well-structured nation and strong military, it's not assured that they'd be able to subjugate other nations (let alone create an empire). There are so many factors involved in becoming a superpower--like population, birth and mortality rates, cultural influence, resources, trade and commerce, diplomacy, ability to govern, etc.
Keep in mind, for instance, that while Sparta achieved dominance in Greece after the Peloponnesian War (431-404 BCE), it was fairly inconsequential by the time of Alexander III's ascension to power in 336 BCE. A strong military and structured society isn't everything.
This ties into my reluctance to assign a Lawful or even Neutral alignment to evil humanoid races. Without inherent chaos, you have an inevitable tendency towards civilization.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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I've often flirted with the idea that the "evil" humanoids are evil analogs of the "good" humanoids:
Dwarf vs. Orc
Elf vs. Gnoll
Human vs. Hobgoblin
Halfling vs. Goblin
Gnome vs. Kobold
Goliath vs. Bugbear (in earlier editions i thought of half-giant vs. bugbear)
Half-Elf vs. Flind (Half-gnoll?)
Mul (Half-Dwarf from Dark sun) vs. Half-Orc
Maybe I am too obsessed with symmetry. Then Again, maybe not. I've done nothing with the idea in my home campaigns, but the idea is always floatin' around in my cranium.
My biggest beef with them is their name.
Bugbear sounds way too cute for my taste.
I've often flirted with the idea that the "evil" humanoids are evil analogs of the "good" humanoids:
Dwarf vs. Orc
Elf vs. Gnoll
Human vs. Hobgoblin
Halfling vs. Goblin
Gnome vs. Kobold
Goliath vs. Bugbear (in earlier editions i thought of half-giant vs. bugbear)
Half-Elf vs. Flind (Half-gnoll?)
Mul (Half-Dwarf from Dark sun) vs. Half-OrcMaybe I am too obsessed with symmetry. Then Again, maybe not. I've done nothing with the idea in my home campaigns, but the idea is always floatin' around in my cranium.
Some of those things, like Dwarf vs. Orc and Gnome vs. Kobold stand out in my mind too.
I don't see the Half-Elf vs. Flind thing, but whatever you think.
I've often flirted with the idea that the "evil" humanoids are evil analogs of the "good" humanoids:
Dwarf vs. Orc
Elf vs. Gnoll
Human vs. Hobgoblin
Halfling vs. Goblin
Gnome vs. Kobold
Goliath vs. Bugbear (in earlier editions i thought of half-giant vs. bugbear)
Half-Elf vs. Flind (Half-gnoll?)
Mul (Half-Dwarf from Dark sun) vs. Half-OrcMaybe I am too obsessed with symmetry. Then Again, maybe not. I've done nothing with the idea in my home campaigns, but the idea is always floatin' around in my cranium.
my group has always held some belief that orcs were overly vein "fallen" elve i believe one of them said it was a tolkien thing(sorry i only got half way through fellow ship OMG im glad i didnt own a gun). i kinda liked it
My biggest beef with them is their name.
Bugbear sounds way too cute for my taste.
i dont care for the hairy thing either why are goblins the only hairless skinny ones. hobos and bbs are covered in fur.
In my homebrew, I've done the same thing to the goblinoids- goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all parts of the same race.
As to why they haven't conquered the world, basically they are just recently coming to power. For too long the big mean Bugbears and small, sneaky goblins have shattered any hope of a united goblin empire, despite the best intentions of the Hobgoblins.
Finally, a strong Hobgoblin Warlord managed to keep all the goblinoids in order long enough for them to accomplish something. The new empire is starting to take root and may well be the end of humanity, but it depends on the Chaotic nature of the bulk of goblinkind...
you soooooo need to pick up a copy of The Red Hand of Doom
my group has always held some belief that orcs were overly vein "fallen" elve i believe one of them said it was a tolkien thing(sorry i only got half way through fellow ship OMG im glad i didnt own a gun).
As a huge fan of the books, I have to make a token attempt to encourage you to try reading again.
In particular, the first half of Fellowship is the slowest and weakest part of the books. It took me several (almost ten) tries to get past the first half of Fellowship. When I finally did, I was glad I had. The rest of the story is very rewarding if you can muscle through that first part.
You all have made me rethink Bugbears in my world.... they have yet to find their niche, and they need too. I've been too caught up with Gnolls and Kobolds fighting gnomish communities to really give Bugbears much though. Thank you.
As far as why Hobgoblins haven't taken over human lands? Humans get a bonus feat. 'Nuff said!
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Hobgoblins: racial bonuses to dex/con move silently, darkvision. la+1.
Goblins: small, +2 dex, -2 cha, -2 str. darkvision, racial bonuses on fairly innocuous skills. la+0
Bugbears: +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, -2 Cha, Natural Armor, Darkvision, Scent. LA+1, HD +3.
compared to humans, halflings, and say, halforcs.
no bonus feats
no save bonuses
plenty of higher ecl creatures, vs. leveled humans
so, humans will be more powerful sorcerers/wizards/psions/clerics, while the only ones that can hope to match them are goblins, who are, after all, goblins.
the real reason the goblinoids havent taken over the (demi)human lands?
ECL.
nuff said.
-hamster
I'm in the camp of goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears are all the same race.
goblins are neutralevil and are the backbone of society. Most Goblins are born as goblins.
Hobgoblins are Lawfulevil and are the rulers of Goblin society. When a goblin society is low on rulers and warriors, sorcerers and such, young goblins will grow to be hobgoblins. A mated pair of hobgoblins will also make more hobgoblins. Because hobgoblins rule, goblin society is mainly lawfulevil.
Bugbears are chaotic evil abberants rebels in goblin society. They live on the fringes. they are few and far between and tend to hang together in a group of goblins. They provide the shock troops for the goblin armies. They also play the role of spoiler and rabble rouser in goblen society. Because of thier fighting prowess they are seen as needed in society. When Hobgoblins get compplacent, and goblin society starts to stagnant, it is ussually a bugbear that lead a change in regime. Of course there chaotic nature leads to Hoblgoblin takeover but society is again reinvigorated.
Boy is that complicated. Can't goblins just grow into hobgoblins and if they live long enough then bugbears?
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Boy is that complicated. Can't goblins just grow into hobgoblins and if they live long enough then bugbears?
Ugh. No offense intended - but I wouldn't be happy to see such a thing. I like that they are seperate species of goblinoid.
I don't want to see a Pokemon type mechanic put into place. "I choose you Goblin-ikachu! Look, my Goblin-ikachu evolved into a Hobgoblin-ikachu!"
Sorry, that's just what came to mind.
But what is their tragic flaw? What has kept them from being masters of Varisia?
Infighting. Honestly. Even if a Lawful Evil group of humanoids like hobgoblins has a tendency towards organized communities and societies, that doesn't mean those communities or societies all cooperate with one another. Where they can, they'll each try to impose their will upon the others. Is it possible for a hobgoblin chieftain to one day become an emperor by uniting many of the hobgoblin tribes? Sure. And they'd likely sweep along many of their goblin cousins as well...both as fodder in such a campaign, and later as slaves for the empire or second-class citizens.
But even human cultures with a Lawful bent have crumbled from within due to infighting. Hobgoblins have even larger problems with that. Each tribe takes fierce pride in its superiority. So they make war upon one another just as easily as the other demi-human races. Meanwhile, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and men have demonstrated a far greater capacity for uniting in the face of evil...be it lawful or chaotic in nature. They may disagree with one another at times, but mostly the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and humans don't aggressively engage in war with one another...or at least, not to the level that I imagine hobgoblins do.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil