Dungeon and Dragon magazines gone!!! That will teach me for not frequenting these boards during a holiday :(
So I've had a look at the Pathfinder blog but I'm still confused (call it post holiday dementia ).
What is it?
How can I access it?
Is it worth using or should I drift off into D&D heaven where all the good old adventures and editions have gone?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
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Dungeon and Dragon magazines gone!!! That will teach me for not frequenting these boards during a holiday :(
So I've had a look at the Pathfinder blog but I'm still confused (call it post holiday dementia ).
What is it?
How can I access it?
Is it worth using or should I drift off into D&D heaven where all the good old adventures and editions have gone?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
Hi Delvesdeep,
I think the Pathfinder blog can be accessed via the "Pathfinder" heading right up the top of the page (between Gamesmastery and Planet Stories headings). Someone who knows more exactly than that may be able to post a link?
Pathfinder is the new Adventure Path style products that Paizo is going to be producing now that their Dungeon and Dragon licences have been yanked. They will be books rather than magazines, containing linked adventures (part of an adventure path) set in Paizo's new campaign world, as well as lots of background info on the adventures and the world.
Whether it's worth using ... well, it looks really good, and is created and written by a lof of the favourites from Dungeon mag fame. But I guess whether it's worth it is up to you... I wouldn't drift off into D&D heaven just yet.
Essentially Pathfinder is Adventure Path Magazine (except it is technically a book, not a magazine, so higher quality product and different printing standards). Think of each Pathfinder as two installments of the latest adventure path with a few accompanying articles that somehow support these adventures or similar concepts. So kind of just taking any AP relevant parts of Dungeon and Dragon and putting them into a single volume. This product sounds AWSOME. (You will get excited about it later... you are still in shock, give it time).
So some other related notes in no particular order...
- All new world that will be developed by adventures. So the Pathfinder adventures have no limits imposed by the world, but instead the story drives the world development.
- We don't know what is happening with Dungeon and Dragon Magazines. WotC has not seen fit to share that yet. However, it isn't like they are dead, it is like they died but are being reincarnated instead of ressurected. They could be just great... we just don't know anything.
- The new Game Mastery series of adventures that are being put out by Paizo (adventures that are not a path) will be set in the same world, but not necessarily the same area.
- You have a LOT of reading to do on these boards AND we understand if you vent.
Sean Mahoney
I feel like I went to sleep playing 1st edition D&D and woke up and everyone was discussing 3rd edition! Why would they get rid of Dungeon and Dragon?? I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times already but what a rediculous error in judgement by WoTC. They have effectively alienated most of their supporter base! Really, some people become deluded with figures and ideas and loose sight of what the game is underpinned by.
The Dungeon and Dragon magazines have been the simpliest and most effective method for games to regularly keep in touch with new ideas and products from WotC. Without them I can seen productivity declining makedly.
Well their short-sighted loss.
On Pathfinder though - thankyou Mothman and Sean for you quick response. It's nice to see not everything has changed on these boards :).
So each 'book' will contain two adventures from the same adventure path and accompanying articles. All of the Adventure Paths are set in the same world which Paizo is creating based on the adventures themselves. Is this correct?
I saw the price- $40 US dollars a pop! Is this correct? If it is this would mean about $60 for me in Australia. I think I would find this hard to explain to my wife...
It does sound like a great concept. Do you have to access it on line? Can it be delivered?
What is the adventure paths like? Is the world interesting?
Thanks and sorry for all the questions. I'm just a bit shocked at the moment.
Delvesdeep
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Delves', I understand it's US$20 for each volume, and I think I'm not quite sure on how many volumes it takes to collect one AP, although I'm sure I've seen that information somewhere. But yes, somewhere in the order of $40 aussie dollars per book sounds about right for us.
Information on the campaign setting is being slowly revealed on the boards here, mainly in the Pathfinder blog, and so far it does look very, very cool.
But yes, the money is definately an issue for me too. I don't like subscriptions for various reasons, despite the cost saving. I sometimes struggle with whether I should buy both Dungeon AND Dragon in a given month, and paying more than that for, what is admittedly quite a different - and very good looking at this stage - product, but will really be acting as my substitute for Dungeon and Dragon (yes, i know its a book not a magazine! Yes, I know there are no ads!) will be hard to justify ... especially to the significant other.
I agree, WotC cancelling Dungeon and Dragon seems very short sighted, but I presume they have their reasons which (whether good or bad) will be revealed in time.
WotC has hinted that the magazines may continue in some form, published by wotc in some sort of online format. I'll wait to see what that might be, but purchasing online content really doesnt interest me much, and I just can't see the mags being as good or useful as they were under Paizo.
I guess we wait and see.
On Pathfinder though - thankyou Mothman and Sean for you quick response. It's nice to see not everything has changed on these boards :).
Your welcome, but this is also a good point. Paizo has indicated that these boards aren't going anywhere. So I no reason you couldn't keep up your excellent work on SCAP, for example. And I think that the people here aren't going anywhere.
So each 'book' will contain two adventures from the same adventure path and accompanying articles. All of the Adventure Paths are set in the same world which Paizo is creating based on the adventures themselves. Is this correct?
That is correct.
I saw the price- $40 US dollars a pop! Is this correct? If it is this would mean about $60 for me in Australia. I think I would find this hard to explain to my wife...
No. The price of book is US$20 per month. The subscriptions are done month-to-month rather than several months at once... so you will actually just pay for that month as it ships. This spreads the cost out a bit for you. Although if this doesn't work for you, you could add a bunch of single months to your subscription.
Additionally, you are looking at a discount for subscribing:
"3 volumes with free shipping, a $71.97 retail value—plus you get a free PDF of each edition (a $41.97 value)! Subscribers would pay $53.97 to get this many volumes."
So that is only US$17.99 each.
You will also want to go to your subscription page and make a choice on how to 'spend' the balance of your subscriptions. It can be rolled over into a Pathfinder subscription or used for back orders of mags or even get a refund if that is your choice.
Additionally, if you add a month-to-month subscription for Pathfinder you will get the "charter subscriber" tag for the message boards and (more importantly) get a copy of the Players Guide for Pathfinder (not sure if this is just for the first AP or the world in general, but I think the AP... this is like the one that was out for STAP).
It does sound like a great concept. Do you have to access it on line? Can it be delivered?
This is certainly a selling point for many people (though not for myself as much... at least currently), but it is my understanding that PDFs of the books will be made available to those who purchase the book (not sure if it is just for subscribers or any purchase). So subscribe and you get both. This HAS to be a great thing for you international types who have to wait so much longer to get the book since you could then start getting the PDF immediately.
The plan is for this to be a subscription/delivery type thing, but it will also be available for purchase at various book and hobby stores. I know the plan is to have international shipping, but since it doesn't affect me I haven't paid attention to any of the specifics.
What is the adventure paths like? Is the world interesting?
First off, I haven't mentioned here yet, and I am not sure you have done the math, but STAP will wrap up fully in Dungeon with no changes to the existing plan. Last issue = last adventure planned for STAP. So that AP is not affected by this.
The next AP, which just happens to be happening outside of Dungeon and will actually have MORE support and info and less restrictions by size available, is called the Rise of the Runelords.
The Runelords are apparently the leaders of a ancient fallen empire from the area who delved into a variations on standard arcane magic based on the seven sins (there is/was seven Runelords, but only one is the BBEG in this campaign). It has been stated that giants will play a large role in this AP as well. There is a lot of info on the boards here for you to read and the Pathfinder page has a lot as well. The Blog for Pathfinder really gives you a LOT of info.
Also interesting to note that APs will not necessarily run from 1-20 any longer. It just depends on what the needs of the story are, but it is really just a campaign and where ever the story goes is where it will end. The first campaign is listed as running from 1-15+. Potentially others could be 1-25 or 5-20 or whatever. It is just what makes sense for the story.
I will leave it to you to decide how interesting this all looks for you, but I would contend that each AP has seemed better and better and this is the same group of people continuing that trend with less restrictions (and some tools taken away).
What was taken away? The D&D license. This means that these products will now comply with the D20/OGL licensing guidelines. So, more freedom, but they can't use all of WotC's fun tools and books (but could use those of other publishers).
We'll see new monsters in every issue as well.
Hrmm... I have rambled, but I hope this all helps... still lots more to learn though... cool new goblins... the world will still be core D&D and in a Greyhawk-ish style (though obviously since this is not an official D&D product has to be in their own world)... anyway...
Thanks and sorry for all the questions. I'm just a bit shocked at the moment.
Nothing to apologize for, we have all been there.
It took me a couple of days, but I am excited about this now. The AP was by far my favorite part of Dungeon and now I get more info just dedicated to the AP... I had asked for an AP magazine type product back in July and now I get it.
Still sucks though... end of an era.
Sean Mahoney
Chief Technical Officer
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The pricing quoted in the last post came from a transitional offer, and doesn't exactly match the non-transitional offer.
Pathfinder will cost $19.99 per volume. Subscribers get 30% off, plus shipping, which currently works out to $13.99 plus $4 for the US and $5 internationally. (There's a good chance we'll be able to reduce the US shipping price.) Subscribers also get the PDF for free, while non-subscribers will be able to get the PDF for $13.99.
Adventure paths run for six volumes, though the adventure in each volume could be run standalone.
Other than that, you're pretty well on target....
Thanks Vic for the information on subscribing. Can you buy the product in newsagencies/gaming stores or will the only method of obtaining the product be through paizo?
Thankyou Mothman - I never knew you were from the great southern land :)! Are you still playing SCAP?
Sean - thanks for the very thorough write up. I understand a little more now. Another question - will the Adventure Paths still use the D&D rules/guidelines or will they be forced to create a system based upon it? What can they no longer use that they could before?
Thankyou all for your help
Delvesdeep
Thanks Vic for the information on subscribing. Can you buy the product in newsagencies/gaming stores or will the only method of obtaining the product be through paizo?
Since these are books and not magazines (technically), that means you will be able to find them in bookstores and the like, but not on magazine stands. They have named a few of the big chains around the US, and I am sure are trying to push it to gaming stores as well.
The IRC chat with Erik Mona last night indicated that they are making the first three books fully refundable by book sellers to have them ordering a bunch and expecting a high demand (no PS3 style lines! LoL).
Once again, I know little about international plans...
Another question - will the Adventure Paths still use the D&D rules/guidelines or will they be forced to create a system based upon it? What can they no longer use that they could before?
So the adventures will all be compliant with the Open Gaming License. Conceptually you could look at it as the base system for D&D, called the D20 system, was made available by Wizards for any publisher to use. The books will require the use of the three core books to play (one of the requirements of being OGL) as they can't show anything about how to level up and such. So what that boils down to is that it is fully compatible with D&D and uses the same system as D&D... they just can't say D&D and instead go with the "World's Greatest Role-Playing Game" or something like that (not sure why they are deciding not to just put the D20 mark on it, but that was their decision... who cares really).
What this does mean though, is other than the base rules they can only use WotC material if it was put into the System Resource Document (or SRD, you can find it at [/url=www.d20srd.org]www.d20srd.org[/url]). Other than that, all WotC stuff is off limits. This means any of the splat books are gone, creatures that WotC considers iconic to D&D, like the beholder... all out of bounds.
In return Paizo can now draw from any other OGL resource or make up stuff on their own. The impression I get is that there are few OGL things that they like or might use, but expect most things to be new creations or twists on old ideas. Take a look at the remade goblins in the Pathfinder Blog.
You tell me... do you think the guys who have been putting out all the APs and adventures we have seen lately can put out a great series of adventures with these changed constraints? I do, and I showed that support with my money.
There is some good news as well. There is no more WotC oversight on what they are doing either. This means that they have pretty free license to do whatever they like (with the exceptions above).
Sean Mahoney
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CEO
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Pathfinder will cost $19.99 per volume. Subscribers get 30% off, plus shipping, which currently works out to $13.99 plus $4 for the US and $5 internationally. (There's a good chance we'll be able to reduce the US shipping price.) Subscribers also get the PDF for free, while non-subscribers will be able to get the PDF for $13.99.
I also want to point out that the $18.99 US for subscribers in Australia is just a little over $23 AUD.
-Lisa
Soon to be a lot less, if your dollar keeps diving!
So what about the planes?
Standard classess (cleric, paladin, druid etc)Prestige classes? Spells?
Monsters such as orcs, dragons etc that are not D&D creations?
Are these now all off limits?
What is the biggest difference between what was and now is?
Lisa, $23 dollars sounds better. How much would it cost me for a years subsciption at the moment? Can you just buy one issue and have it delievered?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
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Thankyou Mothman - I never knew you were from the great southern land :)! Are you still playing SCAP?
Yep, and yep!
But I'm about a third of the continent north of you D.
Still going with SCAP (we played just last Saturday in fact) and enjoying it, although we have become a bit bogged down in the tail end of Flood Season and some side treks ... oh, and we will probably be playing your Demonskar Ball next session or the one after!
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So what about the planes?
Standard classess (cleric, paladin, druid etc)Prestige classes? Spells?
Monsters such as orcs, dragons etc that are not D&D creations?
The "Great Wheel" cosmology is owned by WotC. I understand that PAthfinder will use a revised version of planar cosmology, but one not too dis-similar from the one we are used to.
Standard classes in the PHB and PrCs in the DMG can be used.
The spells from the PHB can be used, but not copy-righted names, so, for example, Melf's Acid Arrow becomes just "Acid Arrow".
Most (but not all) of the monsters from the Monster Manual (1) can still be used (orcs, dragons etc are ok), but some (for example Mind Flayers and Beholders) cannot.
So what about the planes?
Standard classess (cleric, paladin, druid etc)Prestige classes? Spells?
Monsters such as orcs, dragons etc that are not D&D creations?Are these now all off limits?
What is the biggest difference between what was and now is?
Lisa, $23 dollars sounds better. How much would it cost me for a years subsciption at the moment? Can you just buy one issue and have it delievered?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
Basically, the DnD you are running now doesn't really change. really the only thing Paizo can't use in the APs is a few monsters (Beholders, Ithilids, Slaads and a few others). But that's fine, as there will be at least SIX new monsters in every edition of Pathfinder.
Yep, 23 bucks for us Aussies is a steal, compared to what we have been paying for Dungeon and Dragon. (Exactly how many Aussies are on this board anyway, they seem to pop up everywhere).
I am very excited about the new Pathfinder series. I am going to convert it to Iron Heroes, and with Pathfinder giving me a new campaign setting (which will be awesome), I never need to buy another WotC book again.
And I hope that you do decide to make the change, if your suggestions to improve it are even half as good s they have been for the SCAP, I will again be stealing them liberally.
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Chief Technical Officer
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How much would it cost me for a years subsciption at the moment?
We're not offering annual subscriptions—just ongoing month-to-month subscriptions, where we charge you each month as we ship. It just automatically keeps going until you want it to stop, so you no longer have to worry about missing issues if you don't renew on time.
Can you just buy one issue and have it delievered?
Volumes will be available for individual sale once they're released, as will individual PDFs.
-Vic.
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There are more restrictions on D20 licenses than just OGL, though I don't know if this was Paizo's reasoning.
You're absolutely right, but I my understanding from reading the boards (which could be absolutely flawed, I will admit) is that the product will really be close to adhering to D20 standards... they just are choosing not to use the logo as it was decided to not be a benefit to them to do so. Apparently some retailers have indicated the the D20 logo bears some sort of stigma with it.
Sean Mahoney
So what about the planes?
The planes will have to change. The Great Wheel is the property of WotC, so they can't use it. The stated goal is to make something close enough to keep the same D&D like feel, but different enough to be unique. I would imagine something along the lines of the difference between the wheel and the tree that FR uses now. One could say that both are just different ways that scholars have used to look at the same phenominom... the planes stay as they are and people just invent different ways of conceptualizing their nature.
Standard classess (cleric, paladin, druid etc)Prestige classes?
All of the standard classes remain available. We just loose the base classes that were added in the splat books (warlock, swashbuckler, etc.). I don't really think these are great losses personally, a fighter class encompasses the swashbuckler type character just fine in its mechanics.
We loose most all of the prestige classes since most of them don't come from the core books. The ones we do keep are listed here. This means that prestige classes go back to the idea of them fitting into the game/campaign setting a lot more closely rather than just a ton pulled from a ton of sources. (for the most part we keep stuff listed in the DMG).
On a related note, the NPC classes are still around as well.
Spells?
We retain most of the spells that were in the PHB and just lose off of them any proprietary names. As another poster mentioned a spell like Melf's Acid Arrow becomes just Acid Arrow. For a list check out the d20 SRD Spell List.
This makes sense anyway though. These folks whose names are being dropped don't exist in the new world, so how would their names be there? I expect that we will see custom spells put in (especially when the series gets to Sin Magic), just probably not as commonly as new monsters (after all, James loves monsters).
Monsters such as orcs, dragons etc that are not D&D creations?
In most cases those are kept just fine. The same goes for many that WERE just D&D creations. Wizards just cherry picked a few from the list that they decided were iconic. For a list of available monsters, check out the d20 SRD Monster List
Additionally, as has been mentioned, we are going to see new monsters in every pathfinder (and I would imagine in most Game Mastery products as well). Some of the monsters presented will be used in the adventure, but some will just thematically fit the adventure.
As an example that I made up with no factual data. If the adventure deals heavily in giants, we would likely see a couple of giants used in the adventure, a giant pet used in the adventure, and then a couple more giants or giant related creatures of a much higher CR than the adventure, but added since it is all about giants.
What is the biggest difference between what was and now is?
Well, this is certainly up to some individual interpretation based on what importance you place on things. I think the loss of all the additional WotC books that have published will make things different. Monsters will more often be unique instead of pulled from the HUGE number of books available (note: they could try and pull monsters from the ton of other OGL products out ther made by other companies at this point and I am sure in some cases they will, but I don't think this practice will be extensive). We won't see additions from books like Libris Mortis that made me change my mind and go out and buy it (probably will save me some money and cost Wizards some). The setting shifts from PaizoHawk to a setting of their own design that has the orig D&D feel with their own twists (kobolds mounted on giant, slimy, tusked frogs, for an example pulled from the latest blog).
To my way of thinking, though I think it will be less obvious to the average reader, the loss of oversite of all their official D&D products by WotC will also allow Paizo more freedom and probably speed up their production schedule by cutting out a layer of the process.
Sean Mahoney
(Exactly how many Aussies are on this board anyway, they seem to pop up everywhere).
I'm another one. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie... Ah, nevermind.
I am very excited about the new Pathfinder series.
Me too, I hope it will be all that they say it will be, and I hope it will be cost effective for us Aussies. $23 is ok, just.
Shade