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My group (now 7th level: cleric, cleric/mage, warlock, fighter, rogue) loves the silence spell. In the last couple of adventures, they have really hampered the BBG spellcaster at the climax of the adventure by placing a silence spell on an easily discarded item (which they hurl into the room) or on a room feature as soon as the battle begins. Given that the final rooms tend to be rather small (I am playing mostly from Dungeon magazine where the rooms containing the final boss are less than 40 feet across with ceilings under 20 feet), this completely trashes the final encounter. What might have been an interesting battle turns into a short demonstration of why mages or clerics should not engage buffed fighters in hand to hand battles. Even if the BBG has a few mooks to hold up the party, the silence spell is typically of large enough radius to prevent the BBG from doing much of anything. Typically the bad guy gets his buffs off beforehand, having been forewarned that the group is coming, but all of his offensive power (spells and wands typically) is for naught because the area in which he stands is silenced as soon as the battle begins.
I have thought about a number of things I could do about offsetting this approach, including giving the BBG the Silent Spell feat (or rod of metamagic with same), but even with that, they still can't use wands and can't bring much of their arsenal to bear because of the high cost of the spell (that extra spell level to memorize a silent spell is costly when the caster is relatively low level). I also considered dispel magic, but since the party has two clerics each with one or two silence spells prepared each day, they can outcast a cleric or mage 2-3 levels higher than them by simply replacing the spell whenever it goes down. Silence as a response would seem to be a good idea, but it even further limits the place where the BBG can cast spells (if any such place exists) and does not hamper the party much because they don't need to cast spells in combat to be effective (the fighter and the rogue are unimpeded by silence and the warlock's blast is spelllike and thus works in areas of silence. Sometimes he takes a silence spell on himself voluntarily and hounds the BBG caster by using spider climb to stay out of reach and keep the bad guy silenced as he blasts away at him).
I am sure there are other approaches to this issue and would like to know what other DMs do to deal with magical silence.
If you were to get two Lesser Rods of Silent Metamagic than you could cast six spells in the silence effect. The hazard to this is that when the players defeat him they can them loot his body and get the rods for themselves which would result in an even worse situation next as they would then be able to cast spells in the magical silence. I am not sure, but I think you might be able to create wands and scrolls that use spells under the effect of metamagic. If not you could always create a house rule allowing them to do so for a reasonable price increase. While this might unbalance a normal game this dosn't sound like a normal situation.
Remember, I do 2e so I'm not familiar with 3e spells, and such. Does 3e still have the "Contingency" spell? This allowed a spellcaster to prepare in advance for certain events. The spell is cast and triggers when a certain condition is met. An example would be to have a Healing spell trigger when the recipients HTK fell below a certain level, or to initiate a Teleport if he fell in the water. In this case, their Silence spell could be the trigger. When it activates in the vicinity of the Contingency, the trigger goes off. This could be Dispell to kill the silence. It could be a huge fireball. It could be a summoning of some kind. Maybe, even turn the tables and initiate an anti-magic shell that deprives the party of their magic too. And, there's a liberal limit to the number of contingencies that can be pre-prepared so the BBG can have several things go off at once in the face of a single event. If 3e still has this spell, or a variant of it, I'd suggest using it with a vengence. By your description, the party seems to have been pulling this trick long enough for the BBG to fold it into his plans. After all, he's not dumb. Look for a way to subject the party to the fruits of their own tricks. That kind of turnabout can be very dramatic and will provide them a lesson on "cheap fixing" their way out of a story climax fight.
An item of spell turning? Rod of cancellation? Break enchantment? Don't forget counterspelling.
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If you were to get two Lesser Rods of Silent Metamagic than you could cast six spells in the silence effect. The hazard to this is that when the players defeat him they can them loot his body and get the rods for themselves which would result in an even worse situation next as they would then be able to cast spells in the magical silence. I am not sure, but I think you might be able to create wands and scrolls that use spells under the effect of metamagic. If not you could always create a house rule allowing them to do so for a reasonable price increase. While this might unbalance a normal game this dosn't sound like a normal situation.
I had thought about the rods and considered them a very viable solution but was a tad concerned about them being present as loot afterward, simply encouraging the use of more silence in the future. Also, I can just see my group of players looking at me askance when the third BBG in a row they took down had rods of Silent Spell on him :) The idea of scrolls and other things with the metamagic Silent Spell feat applied is a great idea, and they are allowed in the game.
In this case, their Silence spell could be the trigger. When it activates in the vicinity of the Contingency, the trigger goes off.
Yes, Contingency is a viable 3.5 spell but the bosses have been 9th level or under thus far so they would need the help of an 11th level wizard to have such a spell placed on them (Contingency is 6th level arcane magic in 3.5). Its possible, but unlikely. If the boss caster was a wizard, this may work, but note that if the silence gets dispelled, they raise it again the next round, so a contingency would not be all that effective even if one were available.
An item of spell turning? Rod of cancellation? Break enchantment? Don't forget counterspelling.
A spell turning item wouldn't help because the evil caster is not the target. The spell is placed on an item the party carries and tosses into the room, or the spell is placed on the floor or other point in the room or on a willing party member before the battle. A rod of cancellation would work, though it is a tad pricy to have on a 9th level character and it would, at most, dispell one silence spell. Break enchantment has a verrbal component and cant be cast in silence. Counterspelling is a great idea if the party casts the spell in front of the bad guy (which they do about half the time), since he can negate it regardless of the intended target. It won't help if they cast it on an item beforehand, but it is a strong suggestion ; I can't believe I overlooked that simple idea!
Silence appears to be one of those very difficult spells to deal with when the bad guys are mid level and under. So, to summarize what I have so far: BBG counterspells if the spell is cast where he can counter it and provide "silent versions" of scrolls or wands. I will add one of my own to this list. Cast a spell with no verbal component, like gaseous form, to allow movement to a safer location.
This may seem like a corner case, but my group just finished Forsaken Arch (Dungeon #120) where they destroyed the kenku bard midway through the dungeon and the final cleric and his ogre magi henchmen at the climax of the dungeon with silence spells. Encounters meant to challenge the group became far easier with the use of silence. Next I plan on running Caverns of the Ooze Lord (Dungeon #132), which also ends in a final battle with a caster that will be hampered by silence unless I can find a good way to deal with it.
Your suggestions are helping me, please keep them coming!
Another thing you might be interested in doing is, if you use Complete Mage, giving the "big guy" casters reserve feats. When coming up with stats for NPCs I haven't given these out very often, because they don't benefit NPCs nearly as much as PCs, but if the silence issue gets out of hand, this gives your BBEGs a chance to do something even if in the long run its not quite as effective as a full blown spell would be.
If you think Silence destroys encounters with mages, you should see what it does to grimlocks (which see via sound, so in Silence they are blind and deaf). My player romped through a lengthy grimlock-infested dungeon with this. In general we have found Silence to be overly strong. On top of the advantages you mention, it allows the PCs an almost guaranteed surprise, since the NPCs can't hear them coming. My player likes to move very fast through a complex with Silence up, hitting each group unawares.
Some things to try:
If the PCs throw a Silenced item into the room, have the NPCs throw it elsewhere (or back into the PCs). If the Silence can be identified as being on a PC, consider bull-rushing that PC out if possible. If it's on the room, have them get out of the room (you may want to have the big bad guy proactively attack the PCs one room earlier, leaving himself somewhere to retreat to if necessary). None of these are perfect but they help a bit.
We did not allow the warlock's blast to be used in Silence, but it's probably too late for you to make that change now.
If the bad guys are clerics, putting up a glyph or forbiddance keyed to take down Silences could help. A glyph of Dispel Magic can do quite a bit of harm to a buff-reliant party.
Potions can be used in Silence: the bad guy might invest in some delaying-action potions for this sort of emergency. Levitate, fly, invisibility, mirror images can all help him survive until the Silence ends or get out of it.
Finally, you might consider making those rooms a bit bigger, if it will fit on the map.
I am heartily sick of this spell and will probably change it next game.
Mary
I think maybe your a tad to attracted to spell casters as BBEGs. I mean if you have two cleric players and they both use 2 2nd level spell slots to take silence - neither of which gets turned into healing. Well your players are really devoting a lot of resources to this - I suspect its because they have more or less come to expect that every adventure has some significant mage or cleric types at the end of it.
Try changing up the opposition. Lots of good monsters with neat supernatural or spell like abilities. Also - if you have access to some 1st or 2nd edition adventures maybe try interspersing these in (after some conversion work). Because the standard was 10' squares back then rooms tended to be larger - and that gives the opposition somewhere they can move too if some point in space is silenced.
I agree with Jeremy- Hit em with an Ogre barbarian straight outs the MM. Or reserve some mooks in the final room to provide a shield wall which conveniently stops the silenced rock form getting close enough to the caster, but is directly in the path of the PCS. Or use bigger rooms, or some sort of warding on the door, even gust of wind to keep thrown weapons out. Make the BBEG a cleric and use entropic shield or just close the effin door and when they try to open it, blast them with lightning :)
Silence allows a save, you know? Will, to be precise.
Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object) (emphasis mine)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object) (emphasis mine)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound recieve the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provdes a defense against sonic or language-based attacks, such as command, a harpy's captivating song, a horn of blasting, and the like.
(PHB 279)
The spell indicates, but never explicitly says, that a ceature entering the area gets no save. To me, a second-level spell that negates all spellcasting with a verbal component (the vast majority of it) is far too powerful.
Magic items in the area get a save, why not creatures?
My belief is that silence should allow a save to any creature who enters its area of effect. It can still be dropped in a corridor to block sound from the other side of the effect, since that is effectively "unattended" space. However, any creature who enters the area and would be totally silenced should get a save.
I admit, this gets sticky- would the creature then be able to hear the movements and noises of those who failed the save, voluntarily or not? Would they then hear the creature who succeeded on the save? Not sure.
In case this isn't a desireable solution, I'll present three others in decreasing complexity.
1. Create a new monster who has a special aura that either dispels all illusions, or specifically silence effects. Cheating? Not any more than the party is. The BBEG, knowing the tactic of the party, captures/employs these beings.
2. Place an unhallow effect with a dispel magic or something else nasty that works against all who do not worship (insert BBEG's god here). It will attempt to dispel their silence effects, as well as any other magic they have. It's prety vague, so you could use round by round, upon entry, area dispels, targeted dispels, or any combination thereof, so long as the use is consistent with each instance of the spell's employment.
3. Make the rooms bigger.
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Regarding the approach to use something other than a caster type for a BBG:
As I mentioned, I am running adventures out of Dungeon, so the module bad guy has tended to be a caster type recently. Since the module tends to be centered on the bad guy's abilities, it would take a fair amount of effort to change the module's climatic battle and all other related information to something else. It is certainly a good answer, but not one that's very practical from my standpoint given my time limitations. But, this does not in any way diminish the great advice the last few posters have given me. I have indeed run an ogre barbarian out of the MM (he was in the Forsaken Arch module in Dungeon #120) and he did a very nice job of beating the party to a pulp, so the advice to run a rogue or fighter type is certainly on the money.
Since the characters tend to place the spell on a party member or cast it into a point in space in the room about half the time (and place it on a readily discarded object the other half the time), I will also take the approach of blocking the door with a few mooks to limit the party's access into the room and to block thrown objects. Also wherever possible, I will try to provide more "running room" for the BBG by increasing the area of the room to ensure a single silence spell cannot cover the entire room. I agree that with the move to 5-foot squares in 3E+, the dungeons look the same on paper but are far tighter and harder to move through than the classic 1E and 2E modules. This has had an impact on all manner of things, not just spellcasting, and is an excellent point.
So, to summarize:
- Use counterspelling when the spell is cast in front of the BBG
- Equip BBG with silent scrolls/wands - limit wand charges to prevent party overuse of silenced wands later
- Add a few non-verbal spells, like gaseous form, to the caster's prepared list
- Use mooks to block the doors to prevent thrown objects and silenced party members from rushing into range
- Switch up the opposition by using decoys, monsters with spellike abilities, and fighter types
- Increase the size of chambers where climatic battles occur to prevent silence from shutting down the entire chamber
These are all great suggestions, thank you all very much. Now on to Saern's point about the spell specifics. What about a will save upon entering the area of silence? Does anyone run silence like this? I had never thought of it, but now I am struck by the idea and its possibilities. Since it is a glammer rather than some sort of transmutation effect, the spell makes those in its AoE believe they can't hear, it does not actually modify the the way sound travels in a physical sense. Thus one of sufficient mental acuity might well perceive the spell for what it is and ignore it, much as they might a Ghost Sound spell.
Can I get some comments on this idea, please?
How about just giving the guy an item (amulet, ring, whatever) that offers him a solid magic rsistance bonus? Since MR is taken before saving throws, if the bonus is good enough, he got a really good chance of not worrying about the spell because the MR defeats it at the outset...just a thought.
Mostly it's a matter of taste. Try one room temp, one slightly chilled (cellar temperature equals roungly 55-deg F., then try one really cold, adn see what you like best. Personally, I prefer all beers and ales at room temperature unless I know they were specifically brewed for chilling. For the same reason I tend to drink wines room temp unless they're designed for chilling. If necessary, do a little independent investigation on the specific brew and see if you can find anything about it's design. There's gotta something out there on the net that says, one way or another.
This website," Wichwood" is specifically to the Wychwood brewery, maybe you can find something there.
As I mentioned, I am running adventures out of Dungeon, so the module bad guy has tended to be a caster type recently. Since the module tends to be centered on the bad guy's abilities, it would take a fair amount of effort to change the module's climatic battle and all other related information to something else. It is certainly a good answer, but not one that's very practical from my standpoint given my time limitations.
I understood that - I still say your attracted to spell caster type BBEGs. Not all modules have them as BBEGs so I suspect that ones that do are more likely to catch your fancy then ones with other types of BBEGs. Nothing really wrong with that, I use a fair number of spell using BBEGs myself, except that the consistency here has caused your players to devote signiifcant resources to a scheme that nerfs them.
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Regarding the approach to use something other than a caster type for a BBG:
As I mentioned, I am running adventures out of Dungeon, so the module bad guy has tended to be a caster type recently. Since the module tends to be centered on the bad guy's abilities, it would take a fair amount of effort to change the module's climatic battle and all other related information to something else. It is certainly a good answer, but not one that's very practical from my standpoint given my time limitations. But, this does not in any way diminish the great advice the last few posters have given me. I have indeed run an ogre barbarian out of the MM (he was in the Forsaken Arch module in Dungeon #120) and he did a very nice job of beating the party to a pulp, so the advice to run a rogue or fighter type is certainly on the money.
Since the characters tend to place the spell on a party member or cast it into a point in space in the room about half the time (and place it on a readily discarded object the other half the time), I will also take the approach of blocking the door with a few mooks to limit the party's access into the room and to block thrown objects. Also wherever possible, I will try to provide more "running room" for the BBG by increasing the area of the room to ensure a single silence spell cannot cover the entire room. I agree that with the move to 5-foot squares in 3E+, the dungeons look the same on paper but are far tighter and harder to move through than the classic 1E and 2E modules. This has had an impact on all manner of things, not just spellcasting, and is an excellent point.
So, to summarize:
[list]
Use counterspelling when the spell is cast in front of the BBG
Equip BBG with silent scrolls/wands - limit wand charges to prevent party overuse of silenced wands later
Add a few non-verbal spells, like gaseous form, to the caster's prepared list
Use mooks to block the doors to prevent thrown objects and silenced party members from rushing into range
Switch up the...
Creatures only get a Will save against Silence if it casted directly on them or an item they carry NOT if they walk into an area that is already encased in Silence. Sage advice has cover this issue a couple years ago...(its in the 3E FAQ on the WotC website).
To counter Silence, your BBG could memorize a Silent Dispel Magic, a Sudden Silent Dispel Magic, place the object that has Silence casted on it into a Hewards Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding, throw the effected object back at the party.....
Also, I'm not sure if this was a 3E or 2E spell, but I remember a spell called Dispel Silence and its components were just somatic..some one might have to look that up.
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I understood that - I still say your attracted to spell caster type BBEGs. Not all modules have them as BBEGs so I suspect that ones that do are more likely to catch your fancy then ones with other types of BBEGs. Nothing really wrong with that, I use a fair number of spell using BBEGs myself, except that the consistency here has caused your players to devote signiifcant resources to a scheme that nerfs them.
I apologize if my response came across poorly Jeremy, it wasn't intended to and I appreciate your comments. It has been by happenstance only that my chosen modules have included a good number of spellcasters; I am not so much as attracted to them as having chosen them by accident after perusing my index of Dungeon modules and choosing an applicable module. I have Dungeon 114 through the present, but after eliminating modules too deeply set in Eberron to translate easily to FR, adventure paths (we will run either AoW or STAP next so I am reserving those modules) and those that do not fit my location (we are playing in the Dalelands in FR), it turns out that spellcasters have played a prominent role in the modules of late. As for donating significant resources to silence, since the party has two clerics (one at 5th, one at 3rd with 2 levels of mage as well), this gives them 5 possible second level spells between them to dedicate to silence in addition to their domain spells. Typically each cleric has one silence prepared, and while this is something of a commitment on their part, it is not as if they are fully loaded on silence spells. The question is also a bit larger now as well as they are considering purchasing a wand of silence. At 4,500gp, it is well within the range of a 7th level party (they will reach 7th level this week as they finish Forsaken Arch, the low cleric levels I gave above reflect their 6th level abilities as both clerics are playing races with +1 LA).
Despite all of the above, your posts have convinced me that I need to find some more time in my schedule and scale an adventure up or down to challenge my players with something different. Thus far I have been running the modules as written, and after doing my process of elimination, I have tended to be left with modules that have spellcasters as BBGs. After running through a module with few or no spellcasters, they will be less likely to prepare silence each day, though of course the wand issue will remain. I will go back through my index and find an adventure that does not feature a spellcaster, then find some time to scale it appropriately for my group.
Creatures only get a Will save against Silence if it casted directly on them or an item they carry NOT if they walk into an area that is already encased in Silence. Sage advice has cover this issue a couple years ago...(its in the 3E FAQ on the WotC website).
Thanks, DmRrostarr. I thought about this for some time and it doesn't make sense that someone entering the area gets a will save for the same reason that those viewing an invisible creature don't get a will save to pierce the glammer.
On top of the advantages you mention, it allows the PCs an almost guaranteed surprise, since the NPCs can't hear them coming. My player likes to move very fast through a complex with Silence up, hitting each group unawares.
You could rule instead that Silence prevents surprise, because the opponents will _know_ something is amiss when the silence suddenly blocks out all the background noises of the environment.
Other than that, I don't have much to add. Silence is far far too powerful.
I'll say this first: There's a feat that applies metamagic to wands as well. Metamagic Spell Trigger from Complete Mage. That plus Silent Spell should help with one problem. Of course, it takes a couple feats, but a wizard will have one bonus feat by 9th level.
And here's a thought for a sorcerer: There's a variant sorcerer class in either the DMGII or PHII that replaces the Familiar class feature with something called Metamagic Specialist.
This allows a sorcerer to apply a metamagic feat to a spell *without* increasing the casting time. It works only a few times per day, but since this is probably a single encounter, that shouldn't be a problem for the guy to get a few good spells off.
Just add the Silent Spell metamagic feat! A 9th level sorcerer would at least have a few good 3rd level spells... plus quite a few slots to use...
Hope that helps!
One simple solution is to just not give them the prep time they need to do this "silent strategy" properly. Maybe hound them with mooks and meat shields, send out the dogs (or the bees, or the dogs with bees coming out of their mouths) so to speak.
If the BBEG is constantly being beaten with the same strategy, he'd have to do something to counter it. PHB2 has an interesting spell called Teleport trap that allows a 5 foot square to become a teleport pad. Have several of them covered by a silence and darkness spell. Even if they toss in the silenced object, they won't be sure it worked. And most likely will be sent away by the teleport square.
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Instead of trying to couter or cancel the party's reasonable use of available magic, why not give them credit for it, and assume they're able to handle a more serious threat?
They're going into the no-holds-barred battles with a serious advantage. So assume they're functioning one or two levels higher than the average party level, and run them through more difficult challenges.
That would be my advice.
The more I thought about it, the stranger the save vs. silence idea became, too. I might consider amending the spell to only work on living targets in my games, thereby always allowing a saving throw. You could mention that it seems to have gotten out of hand to your players and tell them that you are making such a change to the spell in your game. If they trust you, it should go well. If they don't trust you... better not to try it.
I agree with some of the above statements- have the BBEG throw the stupid rock away, or crush it with a hammer (or some minion). The hammer route might make them buy a small chunk of adamantine that can't be crushed, but it could still just be thrown out. If there's a bestial monster in the room, just have them eat it. Watch the players' faces then!
Or, just make a chime or a gem that can be struck/crushed as a standard action that removes silence effects. The BBEG uses it once, it's gone and away from the party, and so is silence. If they get a wand of silence, don't despair! Have a bruiser mook grapple it away from them and snap it. Have the BBEG hire a theif and steal it. Or just a theif off the street! These guys aren't stupid. The players may cry foul, but tough.
I was also going to suggest throwing challenges at them that require more use of second level spells, meaning they won't have the slots for silence. Start using lots of ability draining attacks to necessitate lesser restoration, massive energy attacks to make them counter with resist energy, or paralyzation effects to make them memorize remove paralysis. Just something to eat up their second level spell slots. Of course, this isn't nearly as useful if they get that wand, or even some scrolls.
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I say we bring back the old 2e spell 'Vocalize.' It's a spell that artifically generates the caster's voice for him, allowing him to "create" a voice to speak with (and thus cast spells with) even within areas of magical silence. Silence is a 2nd level spell, so I don't think Vocalize is overpowered as an equal-level alternative.
This way, dropping a silence on someone does, at the very least, still have the effect of making the BBEG cast another spell (Vocalize) before anything further. Plus, you could use the confusion to get into melee with him and try to prevent the caster of said spell in order to preserve the usefulness of the silence.
You could rule instead that Silence prevents surprise, because the opponents will _know_ something is amiss when the silence suddenly blocks out all the background noises of the environment.
Other than that, I don't have much to add. Silence is far far too powerful.
We do that in noisy environments, but it's hard to argue that PCs sneaking through quiet corridors are really "audibly" more silent than the background.
Silence + Invisibility is particularly nasty, as even if the NPCs know that there's something wrong, it is next to impossible to non-magically locate the PCs. My player usually stacks on Fly, too, so that there is no scent trail and no pressure-plate trap triggers.
Mary
Instead of trying to couter or cancel the party's reasonable use of available magic, why not give them credit for it, and assume they're able to handle a more serious threat?
They're going into the no-holds-barred battles with a serious advantage. So assume they're functioning one or two levels higher than the average party level, and run them through more difficult challenges.
That would be my advice.
My experience of this is that it leads to an increasingly brittle game, where either the PCs win overwhelmingly or it's a TPK. My play group hates this effect. We would rather have somewhat more even fights against even opposition than all-or-nothing fights against things six levels higher.
I find that if I make the opposition too powerful, *all* I see are manuvers like this, and the players tend to stop roleplaying. Other groups may not have this problem, but it's a big deal for me.
And in any case, a tactic used over and over becomes boring: the game is more interesting to me if the PCs (and NPCs) have a wider range of tactics. Silence, in our hands, is so strong that it's always used except in very strange circumstances. My own SCAP PCs are 13th now and always carry 2 Silences prepped (they should probably get a wand as well but it's just too obviously broken). It's as useful as it ever was, and still leads to numerous crushes of what seemed to be reasonable opposition.
Mary
I apologize if my response came across poorly Jeremy, it wasn't intended to and I appreciate your comments...
Oh I did not take offence - actually I find the whole thing rather fascinating. Essentially I think what your experiencing is not so uncommon (look at some of the other comments by DMs on this thread). I think DMs love spell casters as BBEGs. Its kind of iconic and their cool plus they often really present the players with a challenge - except when they are nerfed of course.
I feel that there is a real tendency to use brute force encounters that lead up to spell encounters. My take is that this is really simply part of the tradition of adventure design in some sense. Think about it - how often have you seen an adventure where the players wade through 3 EL appropriate encounters with mages and clerics only to come face to face with the big bad brute at the end who is 3 ELs above them in power? I'm not saying its never been done - I am saying its uncommon. Instead most adventures are laid out in the reverse. Lots of brutes and then a spell lobbing BBEG.
All that being the case I think, as DMs, we should be aware of this tendency and try and break the chain - especially early on in the campaign where these kind of cheesy tactics become 'traditions'. What this means is choosing a veriaty of end bosses and making it so some significant number of them are brutes (others might be ambush types or creatures with interesting supernatural abilities) while changing up the mooks a little so that sometimes some of them are not brutes. It all seems rather obvious in the sense that I'm saying veriaty is the spice of D&D' (where have you heard that one before), however I think there is something of a tendency for DMs to equate spell caster with veriaty – they have all these different spells and powers, no two encounters with them are likely to be the same (except when your PCs have the great nerfing scheme going) etc. so there is some real truth to that philosophy but its probably a good idea to broaden the categories even further.
Despite all of the above, your posts have convinced me that I need to find some more time in my schedule and scale an adventure up or down to challenge my players with something different. Thus far I have been running the modules as written, and after doing my process of elimination, I have tended to be left with modules that have spellcasters as BBGs. After running through a module with few or no spellcasters, they will be less likely to prepare silence each day, though of course the wand issue will remain. I will go back through my index and find an adventure that does not feature a spellcaster, then find some time to scale it appropriately for my group.
Have you considered sitting back in a comfy chair with a nice beverage and perusing your monster manuals for a good replacement bad guy for a few of these encounters? Keep in mind that Spell Like Abilities have no verbal or somatic components. Their purely mental. I bet you could come up with some pretty interesting alternatives and it probably only requires a few minor upgrades to the adventure. Maybe a page worth of typed out notes on how your version of adventure X is different. Give it a try. I suspect the sheer diabolical evil in picking out a great monster to throw your players a curve ball will compensate for an extra hours worth of prep time.
Pissing your players off with nasty bad guys that they are not optimized to take down is its own reward. There is no sweater music then hearing the players b$*~$ing and moaning about bad guys that are nerfing them instead of the other way around. If you think about it that is probably a big reason why we are attracted to spell lobbing BBEGs in the first place. However, at this point, it may be time we changed the tempo of the music as, it would seem, the players are on to us.
We do that in noisy environments, but it's hard to argue that PCs sneaking through quiet corridors are really "audibly" more silent than the background.
Once upon a time, I was on a trip to Denmark, and was shown to a particular room filled with sound-dampening cones. This was the first time I'd ever actually been in a truly 'quiet' room, and the effect was very telling. There is a relatively huge amount of background noise that we simply don't take in, even when the environment is quiet. The sudden absence of that noise should be fairly noticable. (And, of course, animals and Grimlocks are considerably more tuned to their hearing than humans. And then there's the case where guard Al is regaling guard Bob with the tale of his exploits the night before when suddenly the sound is cut off...)
The same is true of light, BTW. This time, I was in the Netherlands, and was taken on a tour of some underground tunnels used by the resistance against the Nazis. The tunnels were completely unlit, and during the tour our guide shut off her torch at one point. The effect was really quite startling - it wasn't just dark, it was DARK, and whereas our eyes usually adapt to the darkness to a certain extent, there was no possibility of that here.
Silence + Invisibility is particularly nasty, as even if the NPCs know that there's something wrong, it is next to impossible to non-magically locate the PCs. My player usually stacks on Fly, too, so that there is no scent trail and no pressure-plate trap triggers.
That's pretty nasty. Of course, your spellcasting BBEG has life-sensitive Dispel Magic traps (ideally, directly over wide open spike-filled pits)? And magic-sensitive death traps?
I think maybe the best option that wouldn't FEEL to the players like you are trying to counteract their tactics is to simply try to prevent them from entering the final battle fully prepared.
If the final room is up ahead, and they decide to rest, have them ambushed at night. If the BBEG knew they were preparing themselves for the fight to come, wouldn't he try to surprise them when they least expect it? He doesn't have to just sit there and wait for them. If they leave the dungeon and camp out in the woods, the BBEG can attack them there. If he loses then they still have to deal with any guards or monsters he has left in his dungeon. Or if things are going poorly for him he can try to run away and fight in the security of his dungeon later on. Either way he has seriously disrupted the teams sense of security, and it is likely the heroes have used some of their silence spells, leaving only a few to deal with through dispels and the like. Better yet, have the BBEG cast silence on the heroes and have his best strike team move in for the kill. Why wouldn't he try to support his best agents in their mission.
Hope this helps. I like to use NPCs like PCs. Let them pop in and help the lesser teammates with a few spells now and then, and they seem more realistic in my opinion.
There are so many ways to overcome silence it's not funny. You have monsters with spell-like abilities, spellcasters with Silent spells (whether from a rod or feat), spellcasters who cast silence on the PCs first, counterspelling (but the NPC has to know they are going to cast silence and have the same spell ready or have the necessary feat), psionic using creatures, or spellcasters in large areas who can move around.
Many of my BBEGs are heavy hitters, including a war troll fighter and a greater werewolf vampire ranger (sorry template haters). One of my BBEGs is a wizard, but he's surrounded by heavy hitters and in a very large ice cavern with multiple ledges.
You can't deny the PCs their enjoyment from hosing a bad guy with a spell, but then again you can't have the same spell working time after time. You have to strike the necessary balance.
One of my BBEGs is a wizard, but he's surrounded by heavy hitters and in a very large ice cavern with multiple ledges.
That reminds of something I found with dealing with spell casters who, for whatever reason, are not likely to have a lot of leasure time to prepare. If the spell caster is the 'mook' your players are in for a bit of a challange in terms of combating the encounter.
The normal order of business, for the players, is take out the head honcho spell caster as fast as possible. The mooks are just obsticles to be bypassed. However when the Spell Caster is just support for the Dragon (or some other really nasty non-spell lobbing monster) in the room. Well now your players have a real tactical problem on their hands. Try and bypass the Dragon and go after the weaker spell caster? But that leaves party members - especially the weaker ones open to the Dragons attack - plus who wants to deal AoO from a Dragon? On the other hand taking care of a Dragon is not made any easier if the party is being fireballed every round. I actually have found that my evil spellcasters have more impact* when acting in a support roll then when they were clearly in charge and the obvous target for everything the players can dish out.
* I define impact by the percentage of the spell lobbers spells that are actually used before said spell lober dies a gruesome death or flee's the scene not to be seen again until another later advneture.
Do you enforce player silence when battle is engaged? Since they can't hear each other; force them to STFU when it's not their turn. And don't forget to sneak attack one of them from behind and not tell anyone until his turn comes up; then go 'you're dead/dying/KO' and move on.
Fighting in total silence is incredibly difficult since you have to plan everything perfectly. And remember: no plan survives contact with the enemy. Make him come up with something clever that throws them into disarray and force them to figure out what to do in mid combat, with no talking to each other, and each man fighting for himself.
Silence IC should mean silence OC. If you deprive your enemy of tactical planning but allow the PC to chat OC, then Silence becomes quickly overpowered. If you force them to work as a unit without allowing them to communicate... they might pick up a new tactic.
But then again I think any problem can be fixed by a well placed monk.
That's an interesting and insightful bit of wisdom there. :)
Also remember that since Silence is an emanation, all that someone needs to do is cover it up to stop the effect. A mook could pick up the silenced object and put it in his pocket/belt pouch or someone could just throw a blanket over the item.
Higher-level Spellcasters should also have encountered the Silence problem previously in their lives and have developed tactics to counter it (they are highly intelligent after all). This may mean memorising Silent Dispel Magics or some of the various other tactics listed above.
Olaf the Stout
One of the problems with the 'cover it up' tactic is that smart parties will cast Silence on one of a dozen identical stones (and, if they're really sneaky, have a permanent Nystul's Magic Aura on the others), and then throw a handful of stones at their foes.
Spell Immunity can be a nice stopgap; specify silence and suddenly only the players are getting hurt.
Have the BBEG capture an innocent villager, dress them up as a spellcaster, and keep them in his inner sanctum. That way, when the party breaks in and throws silence over the area they see a guy in robes running at them and waving his arms...While the BBEG escapes to fight another day.
Spell Immunity can be a nice stopgap; specify silence and suddenly only the players are getting hurt.
Doesn't work. Spell resistance only applies to Silence if it's cast directly on a creature or an attended object (just like the saving throw). If the PC casts it on a rock and then throws that into the room, spell immunity doesn't apply.
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Have you considered sitting back in a comfy chair with a nice beverage and perusing your monster manuals for a good replacement bad guy for a few of these encounters? Keep in mind that Spell Like Abilities have no verbal or somatic components. Their purely mental. I bet you could come up with some pretty interesting alternatives and it probably only requires a few minor upgrades to the adventure. Maybe a page worth of typed out notes on how your version of adventure X is different. Give it a try. I suspect the sheer diabolical evil in picking out a great monster to throw your players a curve ball will compensate for an extra hours worth of prep time.
...and from another of his posts...
That reminds of something I found with dealing with spell casters who, for whatever reason, are not likely to have a lot of leasure time to prepare. If the spell caster is the 'mook' your players are in for a bit of a challange in terms of combating the encounter.
I think this is a great idea and will change Caverns of the Ooze Lord (Dungeon 132) to finish with a fighter (of some type)/Thrall to Juiblex rather than a Cleric/Oozemaster as the module calls for. I may even find a way to make it a Monk/Thrall of Juiblex for more entertainment. I will replace the current ooze mooks with partially "oozified" low level spell casters from the local temple he has corrupted. This plus a few alterations to the final room will prevent the mooks from being taken out by a single silence spell. In fact, the mooks may silence the monk to make him more effective in combat, though I may skip this to draw attention away from silence as an effective tool.
Also remember that since Silence is an emanation, all that someone needs to do is cover it up to stop the effect. A mook could pick up the silenced object and put it in his pocket/belt pouch or someone could just throw a blanket over the item.
This is an excellent point (I forgot it was an emanation) and will have the mooks do just that if the party uses the "silent item" tactic.
One of the problems with the 'cover it up' tactic is that smart parties will cast Silence on one of a dozen identical stones (and, if they're really sneaky, have a permanent Nystul's Magic Aura on the others), and then throw a handful of stones at their foes.
Luckily, they are not this clever. :)
To the others that have commented on the ease at which silence can be countered:
At this level (party level has been 6th and under), it is difficult for BBG casters to use many of the techniques mentioned to avoid silence. Silent magic items are pricey and the BBGs will be forced to carry less effective magic to make it Silent and still stay within the gold piece limit for their level. I must also consider the party obaining the Silent item as loot, which would encourage even more Silence in the future. Things like the Silent Spell feat are expensive in terms of what the BBG must give up. If the BBG can cast only 3rd level magic, changing the encounter to remove one of his given feats with Silent Spell, then shifting a couple of his "good" 2nd level spells to 3rd to create Silent versions effectively removes his ability to take 3rd level spells into combat. This means that before the PCs have ever encountered the BBG, he has been forced to surrender his most effective spells to counter a technique they may (from his perspective at least) use. I don't know many PCs that would give up their higher spell slots regularly to prevent the use of Silence on them unless they regularly faced Silence-weilding casters. In the same manner, unless the BBG has reason to believe that his attackers will Silence him, he probably won't be prepared to deal with the spell. Hitting the PC's during prep time is a solid idea, except I am quite brutal on in-dungeon resting, especially at lower levels where the party does not have access to Secure Shelter or a long-lasting Rope Trick. My foes tend to be intelligent and woe to the group that partially assaults a fortified position and then hopes to camp in the cooridors before pressing onward. Thus my players are quite conservative on spell use and typically complete a dungeon run without a rest once they begin, relying on magic items as much as possible for healing so clerics can make use of their buffing spells when they are most needed.
Also, I readily admit that the last few Dungeon modules I selected have emphazised spellcasters. There are plenty of other types of foes out there that are not effected by silence. It is just that given my time constraints, I have not replaced these casters with something else and indeed, it wasn't until I ran two such adventures back to back that I saw the effectiveness of using silence repeatedly in the relatively confined rooms that held the final bosses. As my players have just finished the second of two such adventures and my next planned adventure (Caverns of the Ooze Lord) included yet another caster as BBG, I wanted to gain some insight into the nature of the spell and what others have done to work with it so that it is still useful to the party without being such a huge help to them in each critical encounter.
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A few thoughts for the tossed Silence item:
Emanations are stopped by anything that gives complete cover; I would rule that most furniture provides complete cover to anything directly behind it. If the encounter is set in a room with stuff in it, there will be (perhaps many) places where the emanation does not go. A smart or wise person could probably figure out where his head would need to be to emerge from the silence. And don't forget Tower Shields.
Another possibility is setting an encounter on a grated floor. If the holes in the grates are large enough, small items would likely fall through. And if the pits below are deep enough, the room proper won't be in range of the spell's emanation.
Similarly, if the encounter is set in a space with a high or non-existent ceiling and lots of vertical terrain, it could be difficult to set the spell item in a useful place. And even if it is useful when tossed, it needn't be useful after the putative target moves up or down.
The nastiest form of this is probably a room that slopes down toward where the party is expected to be. We all know where [stuff] rolls, and it need not only be [stuff] thrown by the party that rolls there. 8-)
As noted by others, an experienced caster has probably seen this tactic used enough to have developed some method of countering it. If you don't always use the same method (and don't always counter the tactic), you should be able to still have fun combat encounters. And as the tactic becomes less likely to work, your players are probably less likely to use it in every possible situation.
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Grates in the floors? Sloped rooms? Wow, those are excellent ideas to try once. But the piece d' resistance is your point about cover; it is an outstanding point!
Burst, Emanation, or Spread
Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
Since an emenation is "like a burst" and bursts are blocked by total cover, then it follows (to me at least) that a well-furnished room like the typical pillared temple may have several "safe zones" in it from an emanation spell like silence.
Great ideas!
Thanks for the SRD reference! I'd completely forgotten about that clause concerning emanations and bursts.
I think this is a great idea and will change Caverns of the Ooze Lord (Dungeon 132) to finish with a fighter (of some type)/Thrall to Juiblex rather than a Cleric/Oozemaster as the module calls for. I may even find a way to make it a Monk/Thrall of Juiblex for more entertainment. I will replace the current ooze mooks with partially "oozified" low level spell casters from the local temple he has corrupted. This plus a few alterations to the final room will prevent the mooks from being taken out by a single silence spell.
One catch to modifying encounters and my contention that they take only an extra hour or so. That is pretty much true if you pull a monster from the books. On the other hand if you put in an NPC of some kind, even just giving the monster some class levels, then your in for more work. Gets worse at higher levels too. In fact BBEG fights with lots of leveled NPCs running around are maybe the one area of the game where I know it will take me significantly longer to design the encounter then it will take for the encounter to actually play out.