I have a bit of a crisis. I need the help of some wiser DMs than I for a problem with my two new players. They metagame like mad and it's causing a serious rift between them and the two more experienced players. The game I DMd last night was ruined. Me and the two experienced players had no fun at all, but the two new players thought everything was fine. The problem is that they aren't doing it for some munchkin reason, they just play so many console RPGs that they can't get out of the mindset. They are very enthusiastic and understand the rules well enough, but they just can't seem to grok the spirit of D&D or how it's played.
For background I'll tell you that they are a couple, and their hobby is staying awake all weekend playing things like Fable, Morrowind, Zelda, etc. They play so many console RPGs with each other that they can't grasp that each player has their own character and the idea is not to influence each other too much because it destroys the fun. They play D&D as if it's Final Fantasy, eg whichever character is acting at any particular time represents all five players and everything that everyone does is a group decision. They annoyed the two experienced players and confused everything totally by constantly yelling "no, don't do that we're probably meant to do this" whenever anyone tried to actually DO anything.
Which leads me to the second problem: They seem to think that everything that happens is important, or some sort of vital clue, and can't tell the difference between something I mention for atmosphere and something that is important to the story. They react as if I am a computer saying "choose left or right" and if faced with any decision they try to second guess me on what they are "meant" to do as if the game is a giant puzzle with right and wrong answers. They simply don't get that they can do whatever they bloody well like and I'll try to deal with it, they aren't going to walk into the edge of a screen or hit a direction they can't go in. They think if I mention something, anything, it must be for a specific reason in terms of solving the "puzzle." It puts enormous pressure on me, as they don't give anything back; they don't understand that the DM needs the player's help to tell the story.
The third problem is that one is a fighter and one is a monk. They don't get that they can do things outside combat. If it's not a fight and I (or one of the more experienced players) asks them what they're doing they'll say something like "I'm just standing there. You should talk, you have better charisma." Then as soon as the other player opens their mouth they say "hang on, tell him this..." Last night a couple of times I had to say "so your monk is standing there, and you say "say this" to the bard, right in front of the suspicious guard?" The player said "Oh no, I uh, just stand there" and then sat there doing nothing looking bored. And she STILL didn't get it and was back to her old behaviour in minutes.
They have complex back stories and good characters, but none of it affects how they play. They approach the game as if it is puzzle, fight, puzzle, fight and whenever battle is joined seem relieved as if "finally, the realgame is actually beginning."
It's really difficult. They like role-playing but they can't seem to do it. The more experienced players are having serious thoughts about quitting the campaign already (last night was the first adventure). Both these people (the new players) are very intelligent adults in their mid 20s and I don't know how to get them to understand the spirit of the game. They are not learning by watching me or the other players; they think they know how to play RPGs because of their bloody console games! It's as if they have high Intelligence and low Wisdom and I don't know how to fix this without offending them. But if I don't fix it my game will be ruined.
PS. I even gave them a bunch of old Knights of the Dinner Table comics, hoping they'd catch on, as that's how my two experienced players learnt to role-play. They brought them back and said "I don't get the jokes. I like Order of the Stick better."
WTF am I going to do? Help me Lords of Paizo!
Have you spoken about your concerns to them? If you haven't I would start with that.
To get one of our new players up to speed in our game we adopted a rule where anything said at the table was in character, much like you had. We kept it going for a couple sessions and the new player learned pretty quick.
Also for us the telling what to do worked a bit opposite with one of the more experienced players trying to say 'you should do this/that'. I put my foot down though by explaining to him that I needed answers from the new player. I used my deadly serious expression and what do you know everything is running along smoothly now :)
Perhaps a helpful thing to do is run an entire session without any character sheets or combat or dice. Just roleplay for an entire session, making silly voices and doing everything that you're supposed to do. Keep it simple and make sure to give everyone a hook. Address each character individually by their character's name; perhaps a peasant is awed by the fighter's armor and weapons and wishes to know the story behind them; encourage the player to ham it up and improvise a bit. Have the more experienced players lead the way via some inter-party role-playing. It takes some effort to get started; my players started that way when I introduced them to the game. But after the period where they would take ludicrous actions just to see if I would say,"No, you can't do that" (which I did not), they started to get a feel for how the game works.
Stress that there is no wrong way to role-play, beyond not role-playing at all. Maybe they don't want to look silly in front of everyone, so perhaps you should try something else until everyone is comfortable together.
Well obviously the subtle approach isn't working. I think your best bet is to come right out and tell them what they're doing 'wrong'. "This is not a bloody console game! Not everything you say or do is a world-breaking choice! What you're doing is NOT roleplaying, it's just videogaming! Don't try to 'win' the game, just pretend like you are acting your character in a play because that's what roleplaying is!"
Okay, well maybe it's not a great idea to scream at them but be sure to use clear and simple language that even a child could understand (again, subtle doesn't seem to be working).
It's very tough to get out of that "Puzzle/fight" console mindset.
I know from personal experience ;). But you know, I came around, I've been in a group for about 6 months and we just had an RP only day of about 6 hours (unintentionally) a few weeks ago. An absolute blast.
You're going to need to enlist the help of the experienced players. Inter-party roleplaying is probably a very smart way to go.
"So Zin, what brings you to adventuring?"
Since they're experienced, they can react well in dialogue between each other and draw them in.
Definitely go with the "what's said at the table goes at the table" If the group is together, and someone is asked a questions, have the NPC be really haughty and respond with someone that spoke out of turn.
"I addressed the dwarf, kindly keep quiet."
later
"I won't ask again, i'll merely cut out your tongue."
Definitely do voices. Try and split up the party, like isolate one of the new inductees and RP with them alone, and then make them RP what they found out, like give them the mission that way.
If they constantly "stand there" have their feet hurt and give them negatives.
Have them order food at the local inn. Put bards in the inn and have patrons ask them to dance and chat. Or gamble with some sailors or mercenaries.
Target them though, if they just stand there or look nervous, they would be targets of such things to "bring them out" of their shell in terms of a bard, or get taken advantage of by savvy mercenaries.
Above all else, give XP for RPing.
Imagine it as a wall to break, take it as a challenge, not one to "take your ball and go home" on. One that will reward you and the two experienced players with an extremely bright face as soon as the light goes on. Trust me, it will be very rewarding for the both of you.
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I think The Drone made some excellent suggestions above.
Yeah, maybe I'm just not getting the depths of frustration that these players brought to your game the other night, but for your two experienced players to consider dropping out of the game after just one session with them doesn't seem particularly helpful to you.
One thing I've found good with drawing out new players is to have an in-game planning session - like they need to plan a raid on the keep, or an ambush of a caravan, or busting someone out of prison. These can be done in character or not, but although they may not lead to the world's greatest role playing moments, they can be good for player to player (and character to character) interaction - particularly if your experienced players say "well you guys are the combat experts, what do you htink we should do?".
IF they come up with a reasonable plan, let it work - mostly ... but throw some spanners in the works too. This should show them that furthering the story invloves planning and interaction, not just puzzle solving and combat, but you're also not going to give them EVERY piece of information - its a living, breathing environment, unlike a console game, things will happen that they need to adapt to.
Not everyone knows how to roleplay (or is good at it) right away, sometimes you need to ease them into different aspects of the game over a few sessions.
Drone has great suggestions in getting them to roleplay.
One Game and the experience players want to drop it, because some newbies can't role play well.
You all need some patience, roleplaying is difficult, that is why more people play console RPG's than paper and pencil RPGs. It is easier to have a story presented to yout than to acctually be apart of the story.
Don't think this type of meta gaming is for newbies. I know some experience D&D players who play like those two new gamers you mentioned above. People play D&D for different reasons, I have had problems DMing players, who play D&D competativly. They are competing against the DM and other players. But I realized, that was his experience as a D&D player over the last 20 years. After playing together for the last 5 years, he still blurts things out of character and still gets competative about playing the game. (almost walked off the table because of Dm ruling, I was more than willing to let him go)
Thanks everyone that's great advice so far. I was talking to one of the experienced players afterwards (who was actually honest enough to say "that sucked, how can we fix it?"), and she suggested that the next game the players should dress as their characters, to get the newbies to realize that the focus of the game is the role-playing. I don't know if I'm up for that but I think she's on the right track. I'll defnitely try the "everything that's said at table is in character" thing.
Mothman, I'll tell you why it was so frustrating. This is what happened:
I created a simple first level adventure like the kind I've played and run many times before. It was meant to last about 3 hours as everyone had to work the next day etc. The PC's were hired by a dwarf merchant to protect a shipment of mithral on it's way to a drop-off point for a noble (the adventure is in a city). The way it was written, the PCs would take the job, be ambushed by a hobgoblin gang with a vendetta against the dwarves, who would steal the metal and take it to a safe house. The PCs would follow the hobs, bust into the house, the fighters would get to fight, the rogue would get to disarm some traps, everyone would be happy and they would head back to the Dwarf to get their reward. The party is a bard and a rogue (the experienced players) and a fighter and monk (the new players).
This is how it played out: The new players were confused from the get-go by how to get from the inn to the dwarf's house to take the job. The bard made a local knowledge check and found that they could take a ferry, walk, or call a rickshaw. The new players decided that I must want them to take the ferry for some reason because I had mentioned the ferry earlier. The other players tried to convince them out of it because the ferry was the most expensive, telling them that it was unimportant and this was all just set-up. They wouldn't budge. So they all took the ferry. The rogue (who is a 17 year old street-kid pickpocket) decided to cut the ferryman's purse. Fair enough, that's what she does for a living, and the player was just trying to create something interesting out of a boring ferry ride. The new players wouldn't let her because they thought something bad would happen, and ruined the attempt.
The PCs got to the dwarf and took the job. The Bard made a knowledge check (for the benefit of the new players) and told everyone that hobgoblins and dwarves hate each other so the motivation for the hobgoblin's banditry may not wholly be greed. The new players decided that since this knowledge had emerged, it must be important, and pressed the bard to make more checks to find a tavern frequented by hobgoblins. The bard got an impressive local knowledge roll and I invented a greenskin tavern on the fly.
The players went there and managed to bluff their way in, meeting one of the hobgoblin gangsters, who told them the dwarves had killed his brother. The new players second-guessed that this meant that they were meant to betray the dwarf and that the hobs were good. The old players knew this was all on the fly as a result of the knowledge checks. The players had a huge discussion for AN HOUR and decided precisely nothing.
The next night they went to the dwarf to get the goods, and were ambushed by the hob raiding party on a bridge. The hobs yelled "stand and deliver" the fighter said "finally, I draw my sword and attack!" The rogue and bard said "what are we doing? are we helping the hobgoblins or the dwarf?" the monk sided with her (RL) boyfriend and attacked the goblins, and the bard started fighting too, because he was attacked while standing confused.
The rogue cowered in a rickshaw while the fighter accused her of not pulling her weight, which greatly annoyed the rogue player because for the entire game, every time she had tried to do something in character the two new players had said "no, don't do that, we're obviously not meant to."
The monk got some seriously lucky rolls and KOd almost the entire hob raiding party. I considered sending in more hobs to take the mithral and flee to the safe-house, but the game had gone for 4 hours already and the rogue and bard players were obviously not having any fun. I pretty much said "OK you defended the shipment, you make the hand-off, and the dwarf rewards you. That's it for this evening." The two new players said: "Great! Do we level up?" and the two experienced players said their goodbyes looking exhausted and annoyed.
I was exhausted and annoyed, at so many points I just wanted to say "look, it's not that complex, just do what seems obvious" but of course this would instantly ruin everyone's suspension of disbelief. I've never played such a frustrating game.
Hopefully next week will be better... :)
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My first session was 4 hours in a inn in kyrnn. Our group was 4 Kenders getting drunk and I think the most action was the kender ninja checking out a woman bathing, and leaning over the window too far and falling in the tub with her. that and the fact that every waitress had a baby on her back - all from one of the party members from the previous trip through the area..
One Game and the experience players want to drop it, because some newbies can't role play well.
Yeah, I'm hoping it was just tiredness and frustration, but they have played a couple of games with these new players before with the same result. The new players have played about 4 or 5 games, the experienced ones have been playing for about 3 years. This was the first adventure of a new campaign, not the first adevnture ever for the new players. It's an on-going problem.
You all need some patience, roleplaying is difficult, that is why more people play console RPG's than paper and pencil RPGs. It is easier to have a story presented to yout than to acctually be apart of the story.
I agree. I just need some tools to get them to grasp it before my other players quit. There are few things more exhausting and un-fun than a bad D&D game. When I was a teenager I could suck up the odd bad game, but as adults we play to get much-needed relaxation, not to become more stressed...
Don't think this type of meta gaming is for newbies. I know some experience D&D players who play like those two new gamers you mentioned above. People play D&D for different reasons, I have had problems DMing players, who play D&D competativly. They are competing against the DM and other players. But I realized, that was his experience as a D&D player over the last 20 years. After playing together for the last 5 years, he still blurts things out of character and still gets competative about playing the game. (almost walked off the table because of Dm ruling, I was more than willing to let him go)
Hmmm, I know, but our group (which was just me and the two experienced players and one other who moved away) has always played a RP intensive game. I am not at all expereinced with competitive players and from what I've seen I don't want my game to be like that. We just can't seem to get them to graps the spirit of our game.
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The rogue (who is a 17 year old street-kid pickpocket) decided to cut the ferryman's purse. Fair enough, that's what she does for a living, and the player was just trying to create something interesting out of a boring ferry ride. The new players wouldn't let her because they thought something bad would happen, and ruined the attempt.
This is where - personally - I would use the rouge's slight of hand vs the new player's spot checks... if they on't see if happening they can't do anything about it...
This is where - personally - I would use the rouge's slight of hand vs the new player's spot checks... if they on't see if happening they can't do anything about it...
You're right, that's what I should have done, and I did think of it in hindsight.
It was just a bad game all round. I made a couple of mistakes (I wish I had never mentioned that hobs and dwarves hate each other, that's where all the confusion started) and the way the new players were playing just made everything a shambles.
I also think that the first step to solving this problem would be to say something to the newbies. I play in two completely different groups, one of which has the same problem. The difference between the two is that my orignal group consists of players who've been at it since 2nd or 1st additon. The newer group has only played 3rd and video games. I think it's a generational thing. Almost everyone in our age bracket, early twenties and younger, has played console RPGs and expects the pen and paper version to run like that. I fall into that trap quite often (though, it's mostly I get bored with my character and want to make a new one).
I really like everything that everyone has suggested and plan on incorporating it into my game as soon as I can.
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Print out this thread and hand it to the players. Let them see EXACTLY what you feel is going on and then they can also see that every little detail isn't necessarily a hook for the grand adventure. If you talk to them you will inadvertently leave out a lot of important issues but if you light-heartedly hand them this thread and let them read it they will have an excellent understanding of what occurred and how they should have acted. THEN discuss any further thoughts with them and let them know that you just want everyone to have a good time.
My 2, for U
FH
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Starting to share your pain after that explanation Kahoolin. And I had the impression that they were first time players, I guess I'd be frusrated too if I had players still at that stage after several games.
Well you know, Fakey's idea above could just do it.
As for the dressing up in character idea, not sure I'd personally feel comfortable with that, but I did play with a group at cons a couple of times who wore hats or headgear that somehow represented their characters when they were playing. So the guy playing the wizard wore a pointy wizard hat, the rogue wore this sort of floppy beret, the priest wore a skullcap, the paladin wore this cool Spartan looking helmet made out of card board and the fighter wore a sash tied around his head, martial arts style (yeah that was me, I kinda copped out). That seemed to work pretty well.
Print out this thread and hand it to the players. Let them see EXACTLY what you feel is going on and then they can also see that every little detail isn't necessarily a hook for the grand adventure. If you talk to them you will inadvertently leave out a lot of important issues but if you light-heartedly hand them this thread and let them read it they will have an excellent understanding of what occurred and how they should have acted. THEN discuss any further thoughts with them and let them know that you just want everyone to have a good time.
My 2, for U
FH
Cool, you could try to print out one of the campaign journals too. F2K has one that's completely filled with detailed "in character" posts from everyone in the party. Maybe that can help them understand that their PC's are identities not game pieces.
Good luck and I hope you group can hash this out without any hard feelings.
Starting to share your pain after that explanation Kahoolin. And I had the impression that they were first time players, I guess I'd be frusrated too if I had players still at that stage after several games.
Well you know, Fakey's idea above could just do it.
As for the dressing up in character idea, not sure I'd personally feel comfortable with that, but I did play with a group at cons a couple of times who wore hats or headgear that somehow represented their characters when they were playing. So the guy playing the wizard wore a pointy wizard hat, the rogue wore this sort of floppy beret, the priest wore a skullcap, the paladin wore this cool Spartan looking helmet made out of card board and the fighter wore a sash tied around his head, martial arts style (yeah that was me, I kinda copped out). That seemed to work pretty well.
If I had to dress up, the greater good be damned I'd just quit ;).
It'll work out. I have faith in ya'll :D You know them a lot better than us.
That adventure sounds like a grand comedy of errors. You all will have a good laugh in a few months.
I think it bears repeating: Talk to them first. Tell them that you did not like the way the game ran, and try to tell them what you expect from the game and the players. Tell them that the other two players don´t like being told what to do with their characters. Tell them that this is _not_ a video game. Tell them that they should try to act only on their characters knowledge, not the players knowledge. And tell them explicitly _not_ to second-guess you as the DM, perhaps tell them that not every detail is important to the game. Talk to them until their ears bleed, if need be.
Perhaps try to get the new players singly, without the other half, and try to run a solo session where their usual console game tactics get them nowhere, perhaps a social setting like a relatives wedding. There would be nothing to "win", per se, but you might reward them for good roleplaying (if they get it).
(As an aside, the D&D reward system might be not the most ideal vehicle for encouraging roleplaying. Watch out for this.)
I would as a DM plainly tell them that they are not _allowed_ to tell the other players what their characters should do. If they want something from the other PCs, have them ask for it in character. If you want to make it hard on them, just ignore indirect speech and only react to direct speech.
In combat or other round-based situations, ask for the players intended action before rolling initiative, and let them only react to others actions if the _characters_ can, perhaps asking for some sort of perception roll. That worked out well, as it necessitates the characters to work out combat tactics beforehand - in character, of course.
Take the time at the start of the next session and talk with all players about their expectations and goals in gaming, and perhaps have the experienced players voice their annoyment - in civil and polite terms, of course. Don´t try to get that done via email - that never works out, it only makes things worse.
hope that helps.
Stefan
Here are some tips...
I used to be one of these players!
You know what changed me? My DM. He was always telling me,
"So what is your character's motivation in life, what is his ultimate dream, why does he do what he does?"
Then, we would play sessions where my character had to roleplay to get anything done. So, make your new players have their characters alone, trying to find their way to the rest of the group. Don't let him/her say "i take the ferry". No! Tell him "how do you look for it?". And after your player reaches the ferry, make him look for the ferryman, search, ask people about his whereabouts, make him complain that it's too foggy or he is too drunk. In other words, if you see bad roleplaying immerse them into the world.
This will probably mean a lot of work on all your parts, but i am glad i had a patient DM and patient players. Bacause eventually their patience changed my style of play.
Make them feel they are in a world full of possibilities, don't just give them adventures. Make them look for the adventure. Maybe it's best if you regularly separate the party in small "scenes". Especially don't allow them to metagame and talk to each other about what they do. If they do that, have a villain hear it and use it against them. Don't overdo it though ;)
Also, use training. Your players level up, don't just allow them to use Feat slots and skill points, tell them they have to train to improve themselves, especially for feats. I would also recommend to make them train for skills, but also consider that using skills on dramatic situations is also part of that "training".
Make them find the trainer, let them roleplay all of this. Don't let the experienced players help them in this, and tell them "roleplay this", don't let them just say "my Character trains for this".
Last recommendation, put them in difficult roleplaying situations often, where they have to talk to get out of it, have them captured interrogated, and let them use their initiative to solve problems.
Not my work, it's from "Zen and the Art of Dungeon Mastering" - well worth finding and reading:
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Who Is Your Character - Character Creation Tips from Zen and the Art of Dungeon Mastery
In response to questions on how to improve a character's background and other roleplaying questions I'm posing a series of questions. Sit down and answer each of them carefully, and you'll have a much better idea of who your character is. Turning a "character" into a memorable "person" is the one thing that separates true roleplaying from munchkinism (there's that word again), but it can be done.
Who were the character's parents?
... Did they raise the character?
... If not, why?
... If not them, who?
Did the character have any childhood friends?
... Any siblings?
... Where are they now?
... Does the character stay in touch with them or have they become separated?
What was childhood like for the character?
... Calm and peaceful or turbulent and traumatic?
Does the character have any or did the character have any role models?
... Describe them.
What did the character do before they entered the story?
... Who trained the character to do what they do now?
What are the character's moral and religious beliefs?
... What lengths will the character go to defend those beliefs?
... Who or what taught those beliefs to the character?
Does the character have any unusual habits or physical traits?
... How do others tend to react to them?
What is the general reaction to the character of other characters?
... Why, in the character's opinion, do they act that way?
Can the character kill?
... Why would the character kill?
... Do they have any enemies at all?
... ... Would or could the character kill them?
What kind of relationships does the character currently have?
... Do they have any close friends?
... ... If so, who?
... ... What are they like?
... Bitter enemies?
... ... If so, who?
... ... What are they like?
Does the character have any mental problems (phobias, etc)?
... If so, what are they?
... What do they stem from?
How does the character generally treat others?
... Do they trust easily, or not?
What does the character look like?
... Do they have any scars or tattoos?
... ... How did they get them?
What is the character's normal daily routine?
... How do they feel when it's interrupted for whatever reason?
Next, sit down with your DM and consider these questions:
Was the character present during any key events in the history of the campaign world?
... How did that event affect the character?
Does the character have a notorious or celebrated ancestor?
... What did they do?
... What do people assume about the character when their ancestry is known?
... Does the character actively try to live up to the reputation, try to dispel it or to ignore it?
Finally, consider these questions:
What are the character's dreams?
... Ambitions?
... Goals?
How do they seek to obtain them?
... How does adventuring fit into this dream, or does it at all?
Does the character ever want to have a family of their own someday?
... If so with who or what type of person?
Has the character ever considered the possibility of their own death?
... Have they made a will?
Only after going through this process should a player choose an alignment, since that is formed from past experiences more than anything else.
--
My additions:
Eberron-specific Considerations
How does your character feel about the Last War?
... Did they lose family or loved ones?
... Was their community destroyed?
... Were they involved in the fighting?
... ... Were they a soldier or a mercenary?
Does your character have a dragonmark, and if so, what is their relationship with their house?
How did you character come by their class?
... What does that class mean to them?
I haven't come up with a "Forgotten Realms Considerations" section yet. :)
Well, basically the problem seems to be their lack of investment in the personal welfare of their character. Rather than take up game time for this, I would recommend having them come over on an off day and play out thier early life or whatever background they have; this will give them a chance to role play and develop relationships with the people from thier past; ie the person who taught them their skills; perhaps a few significant others who influenced their lives and decision to take up adventuring. Use this interactions to tie sub threads and main line campaign threads to their character and show them how their actions effect the world; this is the basic flaw of any pc/console game; no toon really affects the outcome of anything; this is the strength of the pen and paper game; you do make a difference. Also, encourage them to work on the personae of their characters; the personality traits and habits; several books have a list of these traits for npc's perhaps they can look through them for ideas; also, you could try granting them flaws and gifts and whatnot and working out the story of why these exist. As the Gm it is your job to make the setting as real for your players to interact with as possible; true; some people are timid or perhaps afraid to act out their characters, some just like mapping and battling mobs, some like working out riddles and strange languages and cryptic notes; as long as you include all kinds of things in your game, everyone will have a nitch and things will go fine. One of the biggest problems that you have to break from pc/console gamers is that you must battle and kill an enemy to defeat him; this just isn't so; true the game design tends to favor this kind of experience; but if those things you reward are those things that you will see in your game; reward clever ideas, even futile ones with exps; reward teamwork; taking leadership; following the leader, using skills and these things will become prevalent in your game and your players will grow their characters in depth.
This is about the best advice I can think of; it is really just the old reap what you sow kinda thing.
I usually pop the questions I posted above as a way to commence the gaming session - everybody gets a different question, no more than a minute for an answer ('cause they're things you should already know about your character :P ).
Damnedmotherf&&#ingpieceofshitratbastard computer ate my magnificent and perfectly crafted post! GAAAH!!!!!
Attempt 2, boiled to the essentials (curse you, Paizo!):
It doesn't sound like you've just come out and talked to them about this directly yet. Do. Just tell them, "I know you've played a lot of console games, but this is really a different animal." Save yourself another night of suffering through poorly played D&D. If the newbies are rational, they'll hopefully change. If not, that's their problem then. You probably already should have taking a hit to the suspension of disbelief in your game (sounds like it was shot already, to me) and told them this when the issue was hot, rather than sitting on it, or before/after a game (They've been doing this for four or five sessions, you say? Sounds like plenty of opportunities to talk). Step up and help them change, because they aren't just going to do it spontaneously.
Well, at least the new players are active, which rates as a good thing...
Discuss with the players about fundaments of roleplaying, especially differences between freeflow tabletop and prewritten computer games...
Also I agree with earlier suggestion that solo sessions, especially ones concentrating more on social events than puzzles or battle, would be a good idea. Then they hopefully would get bit more invested in their own character, and not able to "play" other characters. Have the monk go back to the monastery to discuss how the adventuring career is turning out (and throw in some subplots too...if they have good backstories there should be some seeds for little roleplaying/storytelling). Send a fighter to the city for a night with no prepared adventure, just see what he happens to do. If he goes to a bar and starts drinking, make him roleplay through discussion with bartender, have a lady of the night try to pick him up (or gentleman, however the choices go), someone challenges him for game of darts, someone has heard from his neighbor from his wife who cleans at Lord Thingamabob's place that there is some big treasure there...and if he catches the bait get him arrested by guards and thrown in jail.
Reminds me of one session we once had (with all experienced players though) where DM informed in the beginning that there is no adventure, so do something. So we did.
And another campaign, where DM was about as anti-railroading as possible and allowed every whim to have consequences...which of course at some point lead to situation where we no longer had any idea what events had to do anything with the mission we were actually supposed to be doing. We were busy coming up with theories though how everything was connected :) So if we heard a name of a place and thought it was actually name of a person of course we could find person with that name...and then killed him, only later realzing that he was perfectly innocent bystander (poor Mr Woodhill).
For our defense more than one of the characters of the group could be described as "impulsive" so were roleplaying quite well :)
Heh, thanks folks I knew I would get some valuable advice. I talked to the players and it turns out the new players sensed that the game wasn't going the way it should too, but they still had fun. When I explained to them that not everything is connected and there was a lot of free-form going on, they laughed. They really thought I had sat down beforehand and written down every possibility just in case, which I suppose is a compliment...
I told them we were going to try a game or two where you said it=your PC says it/does it, and that from now on I am going to reward roleplaying with XP. I am also planning on having NPCs deliberately approach the new PCs so they can't just choose to stand around. The next game is scheduled for a fortnight so I'll report back on how it went...
PS it was great to hear that other groups have the same problem, and to hear about some other people's bad games!
I told them we were going to try a game or two where you said it=your PC says it/does it, and that from now on I am going to reward roleplaying with XP.
I keep an index card handy with the character's names on it. For each "worthy" RP encounter I make a tick mark next to their name and I'll award them a group XP + their "bonus" xp for roleplaying. :)
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I keep an index card handy with the character's names on it. For each "worthy" RP encounter I make a tick mark next to their name and I'll award them a group XP + their "bonus" xp for roleplaying. :)
I've been known to keep some poker chips at hand to reward players who roleplay well. Each is worth a single reroll or x experience (depending on the game and level) at the end of the session.
I just flip one to the player when it seems appropriate, which gives immediate positive feedback and allows all the players to better understand what I'm rewarding.
See? I had a sense from the way you explained it that they were just clueless of the D&D "way," and with a little talking to, everything would resolve itself. Now, you get to raise them yourself, from RP neophytes who just talk in funny voices, to master role-players that could make Elizabethan actors cry with joy over their portrayal of their character realizing that their friend is the very polymorphed red dragon that destroyed their farmstead when they were children. :)
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Heh, thanks folks I knew I would get some valuable advice. I talked to the players and it turns out the new players sensed that the game wasn't going the way it should too, but they still had fun. When I explained to them that not everything is connected and there was a lot of free-form going on, they laughed. They really thought I had sat down beforehand and written down every possibility just in case, which I suppose is a compliment...
I told them we were going to try a game or two where you said it=your PC says it/does it, and that from now on I am going to reward roleplaying with XP. I am also planning on having NPCs deliberately approach the new PCs so they can't just choose to stand around. The next game is scheduled for a fortnight so I'll report back on how it went...
PS it was great to hear that other groups have the same problem, and to hear about some other people's bad games!
Cool, that doesnt sound too painful. Yep, please let us know how the next session goes.
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If you can't remember, your CHARACTER can't remember! This is ADVANCED, Mark! (sorry, couldn't help it.)
Anyway, I was once in a game with a guy who treated D&D more like Grand Theft Auto. It was a friggin' disaster. I should have been tipped off when he used his brand new shiny dancing scimitars to mow down a temple full of NPC's, but we let him play. Then he killed all the other PC's, causing a violent response from a fellow newbie; an unstable lunatic with an affinity for playing Yeagar-like fighters (see 'off-topic discussions' post: 'munchkinism' by Vattnise).
The results weren't pretty.
We never asked either of them back.
-Mr. Shiny
I've found that the biggest fear of new gamers about roleplaying is that they look silly. On eof the tricks that I use to bring them out of their shell is to have an NPC that just starts to pick on them. once the player gets pissed about the attention, they won't bat an eyelash about lashing out at the NPC in character. once they get good results and praise from you and the other players, they will feel more comfortable playing in character.
Though the situation already seems well in hand, I'd love to chime in with something that's worked for me in the past. Whenever I've brought in a new player who seems to miss the whole 'rp' aspect of the game, or views it all as an A + B = C formula, I try to stick them in a situation that presents them with a moral quandry. Present them with a situation where there is no 'right' or 'wrong', or where each decision will have its draw backs or consequences.
On a really simple level, say the PC's are hired by Mr. Jojomapoji to save a group of nobles from an impending dire swine attack. En route, they learn that a whole town is about to be destroyed in the completely opposite direction by a herd of dire sheep. Do they execute their contract, and save the ten nobles, or do they ditch their job and head off to save all the villagers? Lawful characters might suddenly disagree with chaotics, class issues might arise, and in short, the PC's should at the very least have an RP oriented discussion about a purely subjective topic.
I find that these kind of encounters quickly break new players into the right mindset. Having 3 dimensional NPC's also helps - if the barkeep is just that - a barkeep - then PC's won't think or engage with him. But if they learn he gives all his tips to the local orphanage, but that when drunk he beats all the horses in the stable, they'll have conflicted feelings and start rping with him more than just 'using' him.
Hope that helps!
And another campaign, where DM was about as anti-railroading as possible and allowed every whim to have consequences...which of course at some point lead to situation where we no longer had any idea what events had to do anything with the mission we were actually supposed to be doing. We were busy coming up with theories though how everything was connected :) So if we heard a name of a place and thought it was actually name of a person of course we could find person with that name...and then killed him, only later realzing that he was perfectly innocent bystander (poor Mr Woodhill).
Lol. That's a gem.