My players ended the last session with the takedown of Rowyn and Gut Tugger. Here is the problem though: they haven't fought anyone else from the guild.
Due to smart choices, some excellent planning, and good spot checks, they not only avoided the ambush, but convinced the guild that they had cleared off for safer pastures.
So when they assault the guildhouse 3 days later, the guild isn't on alert. They find a abandoned house trap door, enter, and proceed to weave their way through the layout of the guildhall with uncanny speed and silence (all just dumb luck choices on turns and doors) eventually finding themselves at the door to Rowyn's room in less than twenty minutes. (I felt like I had just put 2 vorpal swords in a huge dungeon! Kudos to those who get the reference)
Note, they also avoided most of the undead by swimming across the urchin cave, and never even encountered the hecuva.
So my PCs are a fair bit behind the XP curve. Or are they? What level (or rather XP total) should the PCs be at when they finish There Is No Honor? Should I be looking for a side trek (which I already am since my issue 140 hasnt arrived yet) for this next game session?
If the guildhall is not on alert, there are still supposed to be 14 thieves there, half in the barracks and the other half in either the training room or the mess hall (I'd tend to distribute them evenly between the two). Looking at the map, I don't see how a party could reach the inner sanctums without passing through at least the training room.
And once they get past that, there's still the rhagodessa in D27. Did they take it down silently?
Have you awarded them any xp for bypassing the encounters? At the very least, I'd say that their efforts at convincing the guild that they had left town is worthy of some xp.
They specifically went in at dinner time (which I had set as right after the sun sets) just on the off chance that the theives would be clustered in whatever kitchen area they had. I gave a 50/50 chance, and they got it right.
They did pass through the training room, and dropped alarm spells (mental ping) in it to warn if the theives came in. When they got to the ragodessa, they dropped a silence spell from a scroll onto a torch and then bombed it with alchemist fire. Same with the bugbear zombie, as the silence was still going.
Leaving the silent torch in a corner (to block sound), they continued on, hit Rowyn's room, and downed her in 2 rounds (they won init, hit her and gut tugger with tanglefoot bags, and then waded into melee. Her attempt to gaseous out provoked from three of them. Gut Tugger went down 1 round later. All with the silence spell still blocking the hallway back in the ragodessa room.
My party rolls with swat team tactics when they feel threatened. In random encounters, they kind of run around like headless chickens, but if they know where they're going, they make well-oiled machines look bad.
Actually, awarding them for defeating the guild isn't a bad idea. They're planning on taking their evidence to the Dawn Council, and let them sort out the rest of the guild. They figure they could get the Sunrise Guard in before the theives even know their leader is missing.
What do you all think then? Should they get XP for bringing down the guild, even if they dont actually do it in person? If so, how much?
What do you all think then? Should they get XP for bringing down the guild, even if they dont actually do it in person? If so, how much?
I've always believed that a party should get xp for what they accomplish, even (or especially) if it's not through straight combat. Their forsight and tactics with the alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, and silence scroll were masterful; I see no reason to penalize them for being smart. On the other hand, selecting doors randomly may hurt them a bit in the long run... All that said, I might give them 1/2 xp for the guild thieves (1/2 goes to the watch guys who are stuck actually arresting them), and of course the watch isn't obligated to turn over any extra treasure or items your characters missed. If they're not 3rd level by the start of the next adventure, a side quest is likely in order (and Part 1 of the next adventure basically says, "Insert side quest here as needed."
The sidebar about the Lotus Dragons it states: "In order to break the guild's back and prevent them from seeing their plans through, the PCs must slay or capture Rowyn and at least two thirds of the guild's other thieves. In all, there are 22 Lotus Dragon thieves, not counting Rowyn, Vanthus, and the guild's master of torture, Kersh Reftun."
If Rowyn is down, the guild is not out. Did they defeat Kersh? Perhaps the guild shrinks to 14 members, with Kersh taking over. Perhaps someone else takes the helm? Maybe Jil, or even Finch, fled Cauldron after the fall of the Last Laugh and swing in to shepherd Rowyn's organization? The possibilities are endless.
However, if the PCs don't kill or capture the requisite number of Dragons, the guild will live on.
What do you all think then? Should they get XP for bringing down the guild, even if they dont actually do it in person? If so, how much?
Absolutely! That's superb planning and tactics on their part. I'd award them at least half XP for the 14 thieves they bypassed, maybe even full XP, but not for the denizens of the rest of the complex that they never even approached.
Black Bard, where are your PCs at right now? I mean, did they just barely take out Rowynn or have they done it and left? If they haven't really had to deal with the other thieves, then you should remedy that. What's the fun of going up against a warren of thieves when you don't even take on the thieves?! Set the situation up for us, my friend. Then we'll see what we can do to fix that xp deficit and make things a bit more challenging just when they've gotten into their heads that they're done ;)
The sidebar about the Lotus Dragons it states: "In order to break the guild's back and prevent them from seeing their plans through, the PCs must slay or capture Rowyn and at least two thirds of the guild's other thieves. In all, there are 22 Lotus Dragon thieves, not counting Rowyn, Vanthus, and the guild's master of torture, Kersh Reftun."
If Rowyn is down, the guild is not out. Did they defeat Kersh? Perhaps the guild shrinks to 14 members, with Kersh taking over. Perhaps someone else takes the helm? Maybe Jil, or even Finch, fled Cauldron after the fall of the Last Laugh and swing in to shepherd Rowyn's organization? The possibilities are endless.
However, if the PCs don't kill or capture the requisite number of Dragons, the guild will live on.
Basically right, but the guild is in trouble, at least for a time: their leader slain (apparently without too much problems and even without raising an alarm), their location obviously known to someone powerful, so they need a new leader and a new location.
And if the PCs act fast and really bring in the city guard immediately, the chances are good that they will crush the guild for good.Stefan
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My, my...your kids are fond of thier gernade-like weapons, aren't they! Word of that might start getting out as their reputation grows. If you do any side-questing around Sasserine, their opponants might start taking that into account. Bear in mind if they use alchemist's fire or such in encounters on the street, they might catch innocent civies in the splash radius...may particularly be a problem on the festively crowded streets during Wormfall in the next adventure.
Basically right, but the guild is in trouble, at least for a time: their leader slain (apparently without too much problems and even without raising an alarm), their location obviously known to someone powerful, so they need a new leader and a new location.
And if the PCs act fast and really bring in the city guard immediately, the chances are good that they will crush the guild for good.Stefan
Right. I figure the PCs have good incentive to finish the job, because once the guild reorganizes they're going to be looking for revenge (unless they're so freaked out that a small group was able to infiltrate their base and take out their leader with none the wiser that they're not willing to risk a showdown). Given that the guild is now leaderless and in turmoil it shouldn't be too difficult - given the masterful tactics your players have used so far - to take the guild out for good. There may even be a power struggle going on within the guild that will make things even easier for them. This, with bonuses for excellent play, should more than make up for any XP shortfall from encounters missed during the first foray.
Sean
If you had the six rogues from the training room in the dining room, how did your party not alert them when they entered the training room?
It's only 30 feet away, down a worked stone hallway. That adds just +3 to the listen check, which would be DC 8 for them to hear someone in medium armor trying to move silently (without the move silently) skill, and just an 18 for anyone in no armor (per the PH).
So, if you have anyone in anything over a chain shirt, all 6 (or even 14, if they were all eating), would have had a 60 percent chance to hear the PCs in the hall.
Also, how did they not run into the heuceva, and most of the zombies at pirate island when you, as the DM, determine when and where they are met?
I would certainly NOT penalize your party for avoiding battles or straight up combat; indeed, I tend to award full or better XP for innovative solutions rather than a straight brawl. The silence spell on the torch was brilliant and the use of alchemist's fire and tanglefoot bags very good. It's good to see your players thinking outside the box!
They avoided the undead in parrot island through speed and the fact that the undead don't like to swim (holdover memories). My party has a habit of beelining for the exit, even if they have no idea where it is. Freaky to watch them "thread the needle" of dungeons. They were suitably freaked by the first attack of ravenous zombies. Freaked enough to not wait around for a second attack.
They also tend to have a less "I R teh heroxor, I crush teh bad guyz" mentality and more of a "what do we need to do, what do we have to do". While this does cause them to react a little more rationally to most situations, it does bring the "heroic" nature of the PCs down a notch. By 5th level, they start realizing they can do things other people can't, and start becoming more heroic rapidly at that point (I've gamed with this crew for several years now, I know their MO)
With the undead, after the cleric made some heal checks and determined how old the undead were, the fact that they hadn't left the island indicated they were contained. So the party left the rest of the undead there, and then told the Church of Pelor about them.
Fortunately, the party leader (human frost sorceror) takes a dim view of being threatened, and wants to personally see the guild neutralized. That and he wants to be known as the leader of a group who "walked into the Lotus Dragon's guildhouse, marched up to the leader, knocked her out, then subdued the outraged guild theives, and toted them all to jail" rather than the group who "snuck in, kidnapped the leader, snuck out, and let the City Guard do the dirty work".
However, because the party pulled their slick little distraction earlier, they avoided the assasination attempt, so they don't have much animosity to the guild, beyond the standard animosity to a violent, evil guild trying to take over the city. It hasn't gotten personal yet. They're only here to find Vanthus, and unless they sit down and read those love letters, they might have to keep looking. Then again, they might just sit down and read them.
I'm going to look at the map and see if its at all possible for Cruncher to catch their scent. I was also thinking of having Churtle bring Rowyn her private dinner soon. Might get the ball rolling.
Your players are awesome. That said, you should definitely hit them with some surprises and have their whole plan go sideways just about the time they're high-fiving each other for a job well done. As for the XP, you always have the option of doing away with XP entirely, and simply advancing characters when called for in the AP. It might feel like cheating, but it's not.
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they avoided the assasination attempt, so they don't have much animosity to the guild, beyond the standard animosity to a violent, evil guild trying to take over the city. It hasn't gotten personal yet.
Then make it get personal quickly maybe the guild had just seen through the distraction before the group attacked the base, and messengers were in route as they took out the leader. now the guild is mad at them for having avoided a trap (hurting their reputation) and in the next ambush, which is more organized... and any of the guild members that escaped this bigger ambush after it fails, notice any things that a easily identified as being from the hidout so the guild knows who infultrated them...
