Though I don't technically have a group right now, I still do have two players from the old one I had in high school, and we are all sort of just waiting around while the search for more people continues.
In the meantime, we've been looking over some things, including the Player's Hadnbook II (which we did when it came out, too, but now we've got nothing better to do relating to D&D).
We all have found that we really like the alternate wild shape ability for the druid. In essence, for those that don't have the book, this gives the druid shapechanging ability from first level, and without a limited number of uses per day or duration of each use. There are a set number of general forms the druid can take, each one giving a specific array of abilities and adjustments to the druid's own stats. More forms, and more powerful versions of old ones, become available as the druid increases in level.
As a DM, I love this, as it takes out the whole consideration of what animals the druid has and hasn't incountered yet, and thus what shapes it can assume, which often come up when someone wants to, say, turn into a cheetah for a speed boost, but you know it's likely they've never seen one. The exact appearance of this shape in this alternate system is left to the player, though it should be something within his experience. That doesn't matter so much, however, since the statsitics are the same no matter what.
It also stops a lot of confusion over the exact nature of the wild-shaped druid's stats, and flipping through books to find a bit of information about this or that animal is eliminated, as is the need to create whole different stat sheets for the druid's favored forms. These adjustmets are simply applied to the druid's own normal abilities, like a very simple template or buffing spell.
It also favors characters with high stats. If you rolled a whopping 18 and put it in Strength for your druid, it can be hard to actually find an animal to wild shape into that is actually better in combat than you are. While that's really fine and just a salute to your awesome character, it kind of puts a damper on your day if you really wanted to turn into a bear and maul someone, but that's actually a worse option for you than remaining in normal form. This problem can also arise with monster NPCs with druid class levels.
Now, the downside to all this super awesomeness is that you cannot cast spells while shape-changed. Not even Natural Spell can help you there. It's not as big of a deal, considering that you don't have to worry about wasting a daily use of your ability in order to revert to humanoid form and cast a spell. I've also always had a personal problem with the flavor and style of having a bear or a hawk or something cast produce flame or call lightning or some such. Nevertheless, it does put a bit more of a damper on the druid's spellcasting.
Also, all of the feats from the Complete Divine (and anywhere else they're found, though I can't remember seeing them in another supplement at the moment) that channel wild shape uses to give the druid other abilities are completely nullified, as there are no longer any charges to use. Overall, that's pretty minor, but still something to consider.
My big problem and the whole reason for this already overlong post, is that the druid does not get an animal companion when choosing this option. An animal companion is a huge part of the druid class. The extra numerical advantage they add to the party is hard to overstate, and the generally awesome support they can give in combat that goes along with that deserves its own mention.
Now, I realize that this alternate system for the druid's shapechanging has a lot going for it, but it just seems to me, and the other two guys in our currently-nebulous group, that it can't really stand up as a better option than keeping an animal companion. But we really want it to.
So, what say the Lords of the Boards? What could be done to make up for the loss of an animal companion, or what could be changed to allow the animal to be retained? And most importantly, how are these implemented while maintaining game balance? Or, does anything need to be done at all? Would it actually be unbalancing to allow this new wild shape system and still let the druids keep their animal companions? Please, oh wise ones, answer my query!
Director of Narrative
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I'm no "Lord of the Boards", and have never read the PHBII entry on alternate class abilities for the druid, though I own the book. I have been quite obsessed with my campaign at the time and no one in my group is low level or a druid. And I'm trying to condense things to provide a proper "endgame" before I am out at stupid renfaire for two months.
But anyway....I think what you've reported sounds like a great alternative. Some of the best uses for a wildshape are movement and stealth, which most druid players, including me, have not wanted to "waste" because a better "use per day" might be better used later. Also in my groups, many of the players do not really like having animal companions/familiars/cohorts/hirelings, so this option would be greatly open to these types of players and groups. Even if you can't cast spells while in that form, it is always useful to be able to breathe water, fly, burrow or climb at an almost whim.
Druid just got ruled out in my next game to be a player in, but I'll read the entry anyway. Thanks for the post Saern.
I saw that alternate rule, and promptly said "meh". Its a cool idea, and very useful, but transforming into your "predator shape" just isn't as inspiring as saying "I'm a f**kin Bear, BIATCH!!" and chomping someones melon. And in the only long term interaction I had with a druid, the animal companions were the primary reason we let him keep traveling with us. Hooray for "trip and chomp" (Cheetah/ Bear combo!!)
The advice in the thread Balancing the Druids Animal Companion Class Feature for a Fighter! should apply pretty well to a druid who has to give up his companion for this substitution.
Though I don't technically have a group right now, I still do have two players from the old one I had in high school, and we are all sort of just waiting around while the search for more people continues.
In the meantime, we've been looking over some things, including the Player's Hadnbook II (which we did when it came out, too, but now we've got nothing better to do relating to D&D).
We all have found that we really like the alternate wild shape ability for the druid. In essence, for those that don't have the book, this gives the druid shapechanging ability from first level, and without a limited number of uses per day or duration of each use. There are a set number of general forms the druid can take, each one giving a specific array of abilities and adjustments to the druid's own stats. More forms, and more powerful versions of old ones, become available as the druid increases in level.
As a DM, I love this, as it takes out the whole consideration of what animals the druid has and hasn't incountered yet, and thus what shapes it can assume, which often come up when someone wants to, say, turn into a cheetah for a speed boost, but you know it's likely they've never seen one. The exact appearance of this shape in this alternate system is left to the player, though it should be something within his experience. That doesn't matter so much, however, since the statsitics are the same no matter what.
It also stops a lot of confusion over the exact nature of the wild-shaped druid's stats, and flipping through books to find a bit of information about this or that animal is eliminated, as is the need to create whole different stat sheets for the druid's favored forms. These adjustmets are simply applied to the druid's own normal abilities, like a very simple template or buffing spell.
It also favors characters with high stats. If you rolled a whopping 18 and put it in Strength for your druid, it can be hard to actually find an animal to wild shape into that is actually better in combat than you are. While...
I haven't read the PHBII but from what has been said I think it gimps druids more than helps them out. Natural Spell gives druids the ability to cast spells that are treated as if affected by the still and silence spell feats. No enemy is going to assume that the dog accompanying the party through town is anything more than a dog. That is until that dog launches a flamestrike on some unsuspecting fool.
Also, if you have a druid with a whopping 18 in Strength (why its in Strength and not Wisdom beats me), once he can wild shape into large animals, there are plenty of forms that will put his normal form to shame (Apes and Bears for example). If he chooses ape form he can still keep any armor on due to its humanoid shape and even continue to wield his sword and shield.
As far as animals encountered, druids dont become druids on their own. They are taught by other druids at a grove. Every grove has a treant, an archdruid and a number of mid to low level druids. Anyone of those higher level druids (especially the arch druid) can teach your PC how to wildshape into a more powerful form. As a player you should use all your resources available, and as a DM you should make sure you understand the versatility of your players' classes.
Also I advise any Player that plans on playing any class that has the potential to transform or summon other creatures to invest in a MM 3.5 . You dont have to choose a new creature everytime you wildshape, go through and pick ones for certain situations and ones you want as favorites and have them marked in the book so you can easily access them. Druids have a huge library of animal forms at their disposal but when do they ever use every animal form known to the world.
To truly expand on the druid class, get The Quintessential Druid I and II by Mongoose Publishing. Those are the bibles of the druid class.
Also I've yet to have a reason to frequently wild shape in and out of forms in one day. Even at the lowest wild shape level a druid can maintain that form for 5 hours. I dont know many battles or ventures that last that long.
The other thread wasn't as fruitful as I had hoped, delveg, but thanks for the reference.
The 18 Strength might happen with an orc druid, for example, in which case it was actually a 14 rolled but became 18 after racial adjustments.
A common situation forcing multiple wild shapes in a day isn't combat, but an intervening situation between battles that requires the druid to resume humanoid form. It's hard to cite instances off the top of my head, but they can arise frequently enough that having no use limit per day is deffinately an appreciable boon.
Also, while I respect other posters opinions of the alternate wild shaping, my question remains: Should they be allowed to keep the animal companion? Please list reasoning as well. If not, then is there anything else that can be tweaked to help the player mentally get over the loss of that class feature?
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in my opinion, you could let them keep the animal companion, perhaps at a slightly lower level...maybe as a ranger would obtain an animal.
create a feat that improves your druid lvl by 4 for purposes of an animal companion, make it obtainable at 6th or 9th lvl, and it'll replace natural spell as the "must have" for a 6th lvl druid.
we have a druid/monk that is using the alternate shapechange abilities, and the most interesting fact has been: she has become our pack animal. load her up as a elf, and when she changes to cat-form, that load goes away, in the netherland of extradimensional shapechanging...
-the hamster
I like that. Thanks!
There is a feat that does just that. Its called Improved Animal Companion, it increases the druid animal companion cap by 4 and it can be taken multiple times. This feat is found in the Quintessential Druid.
I think a druid without the use of its animal companion ability is pretty gimp and takes away a large portion of his power and versatilty. The whole danger behind fighting druids in the first place, is because of their backup! No other class can send the whole forest at you. The alternate system might have removed the animal companions because druids would be overpowered with limitless wildshapes AND a companion (i grudgingly agree) but I'd take the limited Wild shapes a day for my animal companion abilities in a heartbeat.
Being able to shape at will takes something away from wild shape. Its not as spectaculr when you can do it on a whim. It starts to lose that flavor after a while. Where as a normal druid will wait for that crucial battle to unleash his new "war form" that attained through his spiritual journey away from the party.
I like the shapechange ability way more...the druid is so attuned to nature that he can take an aspect of it in a blink of an eye!
I would still give the druid the animal companion like the ranger.
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I like the shapechange ability way more...the druid is so attuned to nature that he can take an aspect of it in a blink of an eye!
I would still give the druid the animal companion like the ranger.
I think that Shapechange is sweet as well. I'm going to play a Druid the next time I'm a player in a game just so I can use that ;)
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It seems to me the advantage of the new alternate druid ability is in having no 'uses per day' limit. This gives the druid more freedom to use his forms for stealth, movement, and adaptation without fearing a loss in combat uses. Sounds like a great deal to me.
Until, you read through the alternate forms descriptions for the 'PHB2 druid'. The plant form is not a plant. The elemental form is not an elemental. I'm not sure about other players of druids, but when I'm changing into a treant, I want to smash things like a treant. I'll take that vulnerability to fire, just give me all the plant-type immunities. When I turn into an air elemental, I'd like to have the option of flying and turning into a whirlwind.
If I chose to use this ability or allow it in my game sessions, I would alter it to give back those losses. Gaining a creature's form without the special traits of those monsters is too weak a tradeoff, in my opinion.
As a final note, if you have a world-trekking druid with this alternate ability, be ready to stick out like a sore thumb in tree form. The description says, you look -exactly the same- every time you use that form. There aren't many birch trees in the king's orchard, or the Generic Winterwood Forest, if you catch my meaning. My two coppers.
I like the shapeshift ability a lot more than wild shape. Although I would want to return the animal companion in some form way (maybe by replacing other abilities or adding it as a feat).
I prefer using the character's modified base stats rather that just replacing them with the animals ability scores. It made me feel as if you were punished for putting good stats into the physical ability scores. Also it made it seem pointless to give druid levels to naturally strong monsters like giants or lycanthropes since besides gaining different movement capabilities there was nothing for them to gain from wild shape.
Also I think it makes changing shape more special since with this characters will be less likely to remain in animal form all day.
It seems to me the advantage of the new alternate druid ability is in having no 'uses per day' limit. This gives the druid more freedom to use his forms for stealth, movement, and adaptation without fearing a loss in combat uses. Sounds like a great deal to me.
Until, you read through the alternate forms descriptions for the 'PHB2 druid'. The plant form is not a plant. The elemental form is not an elemental. I'm not sure about other players of druids, but when I'm changing into a treant, I want to smash things like a treant. I'll take that vulnerability to fire, just give me all the plant-type immunities. When I turn into an air elemental, I'd like to have the option of flying and turning into a whirlwind.
If I chose to use this ability or allow it in my game sessions, I would alter it to give back those losses. Gaining a creature's form without the special traits of those monsters is too weak a tradeoff, in my opinion.
It may be I'm missing something, but I can't find where it says you would gain the vulnerability to fire if you wild shaped or polymorphed into a Treant.
I am also having trouble figuring out whether or not plant traits or the damage reduction are a gross physical traits as described in the spell alter self. If they are not then I don't how the druid could gain them.As a final note, if you have a world-trekking druid with this alternate ability, be ready to stick out like a sore thumb in tree form. The description says, you look -exactly the same- every time you use that form. There aren't many birch trees in the king's orchard, or the Generic Winterwood Forest, if you catch my meaning. My two coppers.
The second sentence after benefit states, "Each time you use this ablitity, you can choose the exact look that your shapeshifted form takes."
I dont have a PBII so only know what has been written here; my question is how this changes the Master of Forms or shapes, I forget the specific class name; I think it is from the Wild book; well, this class is dependant on the shapechange ability that druids get; if you can get shapechange at first level; that would mean you could play this advance class at second level which really changes how the game is set up; additionally, without knowing the specifics; it seems that this begins to encroach on this class thought I dont know if it makes it stronger or weaker; things to consider.
The shapechange ability is completely alternate to Wild Shape. Considering that Natural Spell and other features dependent on Wild Shape don't work if the druid selects this ability, I would say one cannot take Master of Many Forms (I think that's the one you're talking about) when using the PHB II option. At least, not with the RAW. You could probably retool it to be more in line with the features granted by the alternat ability.
I was looking over it again this morning and noticed that you don't change form when assuming the flying form. I would think this would be a bit of a problem, considering if one tried to become a bat (one of the common forms listed in the book), but were still medium sized, that would take a lot out of the "stealth" aspect. I'm not refering to the mechanics of the Hide check so much as the attention drawn by seeing a 4-foot long bat. Perhaps there should be a range of sizes allowed in this form, which widens with level?