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So my PFS 2handed Paladin just hit lv 9 and I saved up enough gold to grab Keen for my weapon. My original plan calls for me to grab Greater Mercy for more staying power as my lv 9 feat. This will up my LOH to 7d6 (4d6 + bracers of the merciful knight 2d6 + greater mercy 1d6)
However, while discussing with my fellow players, I was advised to just concentrate on increasing the +X on my weapon. Especially since my Paladin does not have weapon focus. I was also advised to grab Improved Critical over Greater Mercy, unless I plan to take on missions that will face elementals or golems (aka monsters that crit is useless against.)
I really can't decide if I should grab Keen or use my lv 9 feat slot to grab Improved Critical instead.
For those who have played paladins, any advise?
EDIT: Holy on my weapon has been though off and decided against. It would be easier to just use my bond to grab holy if needed.
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Normally I recommend Improved Critical over Keen - for awesomeness, and for weapon versatility. Because of the increasing cost on a weapon, the feat becomes more and more valuable as you go up.
However, Paladin's are fairly feat-shy, and you have a plan for yourself that interests you. So follow your heart.
What weapon are you using? It makes a difference if it's a Falchion, or other high crit range weapon, I think.
I wouldn't bother with Greater Mercy, unless you are going to Ultimate Mercy.
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@ Kazzan, This is for PFS, so there is no fix party. Each game is different.
My Paladin is sort of a mix bag... So here is a short info list:
Main Weapon: +1 Cold Iron Falcata 19-20/X3, w/ Buckler(Usually on)
Falcata proficiency via Opalescent White Pyramid (Cracked) Ioun Stone (implanted into back of character)
- Only works for the above Cold Iron Falcata, don't give proficiently with other falcatas. Backup weapons are +3 str comp long bow and twin spiked gauntlets.
Short Backstory:
Silver Crusade. Aasimar, Taldor nationality, Ulfen ancestry, Fights using traditional Taldor weapon combo of falcata + buckler. Fey Foundling (actually RPing this like a typical non-golarion setting fey, can't lie, etc)
STR: 20
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 7
CHA: 20
Oath of Vengeance and (maybe) against Fiends, Paladin of Ragathiel 8 / Dual-Cursed Oracle of Lore 1
Revelations:
Sidestep Secret (Su)
Focused Trance (Ex) - Yap, he is knowledgeable and joins the PFS to expend that knowledge. This is no dumb dumb, "why am I in the society?" paladin.
Curses: - There is no optimization reasons to take dual, I went with it to get character fitting curses
Legalistic - aka typical fantasy Fey can't lie
Haunted - Fey Magic!
Feats:
1) Fey Foundling - I actually RP his heritage.
3) Extra Revelations - Focused Trance
5) Power Attack
7) Unsanctioned Knowledge - Vanish, Blood Rage and 2 more. Blood Rage fits Ragathiel ideal of Vengence perfectly. You hit me, I hit you back harder. Also reason why I may need Greater Mercy.
9) Greater Mercy or Improve Critical (?)
11) Improve Critical or Ultimate Mercy (?)
As you can see he is a bit of everything. My main concern is really which to get first, cos if I don't take improve critical now, I may yet take it later at lv 11.
But with my character able to use only that single falcata, there is no additional benefit to take Improved Critical over keen...
AHAAHHAHAH!!!! I can't make up my mine... T_T
Or is there some other feat, I SHOULD take that I'm missing here...
Keen
You buy it with money. You are not really limited with how much money you can have (well there is a "soft" cap dictated by your campain).
You are very limited with how many feats you can have.
Money is always easier earned than additional feat slots.
Improved critical has one advantage over keen for a paladin. Improved critical will work with the spell bless weapon, but not with magical effect like keen. Take improved critical with the falchion and you will increase your damage vs evil considerably even when you are not smiting evil. The ability to auto confirm critical vs an evil opponent is often over looked but is incredibly useful.
If I were using a large crit range weapon (larger than 19-20) I would pick up the feat. If I weren't, than I would look at the enchants I would like to put on my weapon and consider if I can add keen on and if it is worth the benefit compared to the others.
Of course, for your paladin it looks a bit different because you seem a bit feat starved. I think personally I would drop greater and ultimate mercy and instead pickup improved critical and something else.
Improved Critical - you can wield a second Falcata when you smite (without the feats), and still be only -1 to hit on your primary weapon (-5 with the off-hand one).
And yes, bless weapon.
Woops, didn't realize Bless Weapon doesn't stack with Keen.
Guess on a Paladin the feat would be better.
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@ Mysterious Stranger,
I totally miss that! Humm... I don't usually prepare bless weapon, but it is good to know!
I just worry that it is a little situational... I need to have bless weapon up, and that is 1 round of combat I can be casting divine favor, moving closer to a target or attack. Action economy :(
@ Claxon,
The main reason I wanted Greater Mercy for the extra +1d6 is due to the Blood Rage spell. That spell ups my str by +2 (max +10) for each 5 points of damage I take (after casting the spell, healing does not reverse the effects.), but also downs my AC by -1 for every 5 damage. I want to be able to stay on my feet! The Fey foundling extra +2 hp per dice helps too.
Secane, don't you guys have a scout? A stealthy char or a mage that can summon a scout?
The min/level spells are best used before the actually combat breaks out because they have such a long in-game duration. I mean 1 minute has 10 turns, so you should have plenty of time to make use of it and confirming every crit is amazing.
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Greater Mercy is even greater when you have Fey Foundling! It's not adding 1d6, it's adding 1d6+2.
Also, Ultimate Mercy is worth going for unless you're confident that none of your team will ever die(!), because it saves you 5,000gp every time! Make sure your party understands this, and they'll do their damnedest to keep you alive, and Raise you if you die.
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@ Mavael,
As I explained earlier, this character is a Pathfinder Society Organized Play (PFS) character.
You don't always get to pick who is at the table with you in a PFS game, every mission can have a different party setup.
Which can some times be awkward, like when there is no one who can heal in a party, not even use a CLW wand... :P
Or
When the whole party are 8 charisma barbarians and fighters, on a diplomatic/knowledge mission.
@ Malachi Silverclaw,
Never quite see it as a reason for others to rise you.. but ya! :)
The nice thing about bless weapon is that the duration is 1 min. per level. It is a good spell to use when you have enough warning to prepare. Its other use is when you are facing a long drawn out battle with a bunch of minions. It is a situational spell, but in the right situation it can be incredibly useful.
Link to DPR calc above Link.
@ Mavael: At the level they're at, even round/level spells last enough for the combat; assuming 9th level, that's 9 rounds they can use buffs to slaughter creatures (Divine Favor has a 10 round non-scaling limit, but still). Most combats by the low levels last 3 rounds tops; in the mid levels, maybe 5, maximum 10 rounds if it's a BBEG. By the endgame, Rocket Tag begins, making even round-duration spells a bit much.
@ OP: I'm a level 10 Mobile Fighter in a homebrew who gets access to Divine Favor 3/day, just to make sure I can have that buff in practically every fight. There was only ever 1 instance in where I had to cast it twice in the same fight, and that's because of crowd control shenanigans combined with reinforcements from the enemy half-way through the battle.
As a Paladin, who has all kinds of immunities to crowd control shenanigans, and the ability to crush evil down to nothing with a couple solid hits, combats will be a lot shorter than what my Fighter had to deal with.
That being said, your focus is key. If you need the survivability, Greater Mercy is pretty good, since it's about half the effects of your Bracers if you just simply need a heal (it doesn't apply the extra 1D6 if you have to use at least 1 Mercy on yourself). If you want to give more survivability to your friends without compromising your own, Reward of Life is good, since you still heal yourself up to your Charisma modifier if you use a LoH to heal someone else.
If you need the damage, I'd take Improved Critical; using a Falcata, the 17-20/X3 multiplier is pretty nasty, and getting automatically confirmed X3 criticals on bad guys who are Smited about equates to a one-shot. Paladins are practically invincible anyway, so I would take this option.
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@ Malachi Silverclaw,
Never quite see it as a reason for others to rise you.. but ya! :)
My reasoning is if they don't raise you, then who will raise them? If they have the ability without you, it will cost them 5,000gp/pop.
If they raise you (for 5,000gp), then you can raise anyone else, but for free! Just ask them what they would buy for 5,000gp, then point out that compared to a normal raise dead, Ultimate Mercy is like a raise that comes with a 5,000gp cash bonus! Has a choice ever been more obvious? : )
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@ Malachi Silverclaw,
Never quite see it as a reason for others to rise you.. but ya! :)
My reasoning is if they don't raise you, then who will raise them? If they have the ability without you, it will cost them 5,000gp/pop.
If they raise you (for 5,000gp), then you can raise anyone else, but for free! Just ask them what they would buy for 5,000gp, then point out that compared to a normal raise dead, Ultimate Mercy is like a raise that comes with a 5,000gp cash bonus! Has a choice ever been more obvious? : )
lol
Paladin, "Guys I will just stay safely behind here. Don't worry I can rise you if you die!" :D
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IMO, Improved crit.
In PFS you only really start to get cash in the that 9-11 level range and there are sooo many cool items to be purchased.
One feat doesn't usually break a build if you have to wait 2 levels but some having a decent all around weapon and the 17+ crit at 3x ...I'd go feat.
Buy the adamantine with the cash.
@ Darksol, but do you think the extra crit range should come from taking Keen or via Improved Critical?
It depends on if you plan to use that weapon for the rest of the game, and if you plan to make use of Bless Weapon. If you plan to use that weapon for the rest of the game, it's not a bad idea to get Keen on it, though if you want other juicy properties, it will cost you even more to get those on, not to mention the other great wondrous items you may be able to get. But, if want to make use of Bless Weapon, you'd have to take the Improved Critical feat, though as I said above, it will free up some cash for other useful items.
I also suggest you compare and contrast each choice, and weigh its strengths versus what you give up for it: to me, Improved Critical is very nice for your weapon type, and your immunities, saving throws, and strong healing power as-is (getting an extra 2D6+4 for your Lay On Hands is extremely powerful, not to mention causing one of those Lay On Hands to give Lesser Restoration is just icing on the cake), you can stand to do without Greater Mercy. Although your AC would be lacking due to Blood Rage, your ridiculous damage should be able to destroy any immediate threat on a given auto-confirmed 17-20/X3 critical against a Smited BBEG. It costs a feat, but you can always get Greater Mercy by 11th level, whereas that 6K you spend for Keen can be put to some amazing but cheap wondrous item. Of course, doing that gives you an extra 1D6+2 to your Lay On Hands if you use no Mercies, but you're already ahead of the curve with your Bracers anyway, so no point for that at the moment.
Ultimate Mercy can be very good to bring to the party, but in PFS play, I find spells such as Raise Dead, although a mean way to look at it, they are, as you said, a random group composition, so it is either going to be overly useful (to the point that you have to give up all your LoH charges to use it, potentially compromising the integrity of your build), or absolutely useless (because this base is covered by a Divine spellcaster in the party). In addition, you won't be getting it until 11th level at the earliest, and by that point PFS play is almost at its limit, so you won't be getting much use out of it, if at all.
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To brake it down what your really looking at. As both brake most DR with out needing to smite every thing in sight. So yes the feet is worth it. As the cost increases as the plus effect on your weapon increases. Where as the cost of the feet is static. You can buy a lot with 14,000 gold, or just make your weapon keen.
Cold Iron Falchion +1 Keen Holy = 34,450
Cold Iron Falchion +1 Holy = 20,450
Or
Cold Iron Falchion +3 Keen = 34,450
Cold Iron Falchion +3 = 20,450
You will find the level cap at 12. will make any thing above a +4 weapon hard to afford. Using a +3 weapon will make it much easier to buy other things then just the weapon you need.
I tend to think of money as being more expendable than feats.
I think most people have argued the advantages of both choices. There are reasons for going either way. How about deciding based on the feeling of your character?
A feat represents something about who your Paladin is. What he has devoted his time to and what he excels at, rather than where he puts his money (still important but more fluid, as others have said)
So which sounds better:
Your Paladin becomes closer to truly mastering the blade. His ferocious onslaughts frequently score devastating blows that no enemy can recover from.
Or
Your Paladin grows closer to the light, being able to channel more positive energy into himself and others. He chooses to focus his efforts here so that he won't falter when standing between evil and those he protects.
I was going to argue for the second, but your Oath's and Ragathiel favor the first.
I tend to think of money as being more expendable than feats.
Generally true, but the equation bends when the feat provides a growing gold benefit (ala the scaling of +1 enhancement weapon costs).
Of course... a Scabbard of Keen Edges also solves this problem...
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To brake it down what your really looking at. As both brake most DR with out needing to smite every thing in sight. So yes the feet is worth it. As the cost increases as the plus effect on your weapon increases. Where as the cost of the feet is static. You can buy a lot with 14,000 gold, or just make your weapon keen.
Cold Iron Falchion +1 Keen Holy = 34,450
Cold Iron Falchion +1 Holy = 20,450
Or
Cold Iron Falchion +3 Keen = 34,450
Cold Iron Falchion +3 = 20,450You will find the level cap at 12. will make any thing above a +4 weapon hard to afford. Using a +3 weapon will make it much easier to buy other things then just the weapon you need.
I think most people have argued the advantages of both choices. There are reasons for going either way. How about deciding based on the feeling of your character?
A feat represents something about who your Paladin is. What he has devoted his time to and what he excels at, rather than where he puts his money (still important but more fluid, as others have said)
So which sounds better:
Your Paladin becomes closer to truly mastering the blade. His ferocious onslaughts frequently score devastating blows that no enemy can recover from.
Or
Your Paladin grows closer to the light, being able to channel more positive energy into himself and others. He chooses to focus his efforts here so that he won't falter when standing between evil and those he protects.I was going to argue for the second, but your Oath's and Ragathiel favor the first.
That's some very good points.
I think I may have been trying to get my Paladin to do too much. I always see his enhanced ability to heal due to an enhancement by his fey heritage.
And I never did fully consider the gold requirements for getting keen. Especially in PFS, with its limited gold.
A +3 weapon will help a lot, especially since I can up the enhancement bonus to a +5 and by pass most DR (Those that Smite Evil can't work against)
I think I will grab Improved Critical now at lv 9. I may grab greater mercy later at lv 11 and ultimate mercy at 13 (if I ever play this character pass 12.)
Thanks for all the input everyone.
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I think the alignment DRs are very asymmetrical in importance. If it's DR/Evil, then you probably shouldn't be trying to kill that creature in the first place (assuming you're a paladin).
If it's DR/Chaotic, then there's a chance the matter can be settled without fighting if you take the time to understand the opponent, because he's probably very Lawful. (Also, there's a chance he'll just get replaced by another Inevitable until their reason for pursuing you ends.)
DR/Lawful can be a bit trickier, although it's fairly rare.
So DR/Good is really the majority of all alignment DRs that you really need to be fighting. That's one reason the Holy enchantment can be better than going from +3 to +5.
How about a Scabbard of Keen Edges? 16,000gp gets you keen on any sword you want, for nearly 3 hours a day, and you can still get your Greater Mercy feat.
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@Ascalaphus,
I did face one encounter in a scenario, where having failed a certain ridiculously high diplomacy check, we had to face a DR/Evil NPC. My CG Figher-Cleric Archer was not happy about it, but some Clustered Shots were called for.
If such an event happen to my Paladin, I would likely have to non-lethal such an NPC, so the +5 would be helpful to both hit and damage DR/Evil.
I would likely just use bond for holy, as to hit is much more important for my character over holy. (Also having played a fighter-archer, I realize Holy is worth more if it can go off like 5 times a round. :P)
@CraziFuzzy,
I think calagnar kind of explain it above. Scabbard of Keen Edges is kinda expensive for what it can do and my needs. If I drop 16k for it, I might as well just grab Keen?
The feat just seems a cheaper options. Not to mention, I could retrain it if I really want to later for just 5pp and 500gp.
Initially, the scabbard seems expensive, but as the cost of weapon enchantments are greater the more you add, the savings continue to grow.
Once you've got +4 worth of enchantments on the weapon, the scabbard becomes cheaper:
.
.
Enh..BaseCost..IncrCost
..+1.__2000gp..2000gp
..+2.__8000gp..6000gp
..+3._18000gp.10000gp
..+4._32000gp.14000gp
..+5._50000gp.18000gp
..+6._72000gp.22000gp
..+7._98000gp.26000gp
..+8.128000gp.30000gp
..+9.162000gp.34000gp
+10.200000gp.38000gp
The other key advantage of the scabbard, is that it isn't limited to YOUR weapon. Any weapon placed in it (up to 3/day) gains the keen ability for 50 minutes.
Need to switch to a cold iron, silver or adamantium weapon? You can at least still make it keen. Improved Critical is limited to a specific weapon type. The scabbard can be used not only on your falcata, but also a the assassins dagger, and the magus' scimitar.
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CraziFuzzy, I see your point.
Given that my character is a PFS character, I likely won't ever earn enough gold enchant my weapon pass +3. At least I won't be able to, if I wish to buy other items.
He is already lv 9, with only like 9 games left in him. 16k is a huge investment for him.
And as mentioned above, it is hard to predict what your party members will be in a PFS game. It may seems counter intuitive, but in PFS games, characters must be a little more self sufficient.
Thanks for the break down tho, I will keep it in mind if I ever play a paladin in a homebrew.