I'm a wee bit new to the history of Greyhawk. All this great stuff on the message boards and Eric's obvious love of the setting got me curious so I bought a few pdf's off the paizo web site. After reading just the smallest bit of Oerth's History it's obvious that Iuz would be a wee bit jealous about another god (i.e. Kyuss and his armies) on the scene. This got me thinking, wouldn't Iuz be a potential ally to the PC's. I mean, Kyuss seems bad and all; but, there is another bad god that may not want the competion.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
C.
probably, but as with any good villain, he'd no doubt want to do away with the heroes after he shamelessly uses them for his own ends.
i agree that Iuz is somewhat underutilized, and would like to see more of him in the future.
Greyhawk Rules, hope you enjoy it.
If Tenser can be nothing more than the party librarian during this impending apocalypse, I'm sure the party could find some use for Iuz. Maybe he could be their porter.
More importantly, he becomes the chief villain when your campaign goes epic after the demise of Kyuss.
Creative Director
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At one point early on in the development of Age of Worms, I believe Iuz played a stronger role in some of the adventures, but we decided to tone him back simply because it would have added far too much complexity to the campaign. That said... Iuz remains a staff favorite for D&D bad guys. I'm sure we'll find him something to do soon enough...
Does anyone else think it's kind of silly in Greyhawk that the adventurers are the only ones able to stop the Age of Worms? With so many power players where is everyone else when the events of Redhand unfold?
That said... Iuz remains a staff favorite for D&D bad guys. I'm sure we'll find him something to do soon enough...
How about a one shot Greyhawk and epic adventure that has some AoW Easter Eggs?
Whatever you do, please don't put him in the Savage Tide unless he's presented generically and actually belongs in the story.
At one point early on in the development of Age of Worms, I believe Iuz played a stronger role in some of the adventures, but we decided to tone him back simply because it would have added far too much complexity to the campaign. That said... Iuz remains a staff favorite for D&D bad guys. I'm sure we'll find him something to do soon enough...
Awesome! I look forward to seeing what you've got in store for the Old One.
I had some ideas for doing a post Age of Worms epic adventure involving the forces of Iuz and the new lords of Redhand, but that will be quite a ways into the future and nothing is developed yet.
In answer to the later question, I find nothing silly about the player characters being the heroes of a campaign. That just seems to be what any D&D campaign should be about. So high level NPCs are silly? I suppose anyone could find anything about any capaign setting silly. To each their own. Which is another way of saying those in silly campaign settings (which could be everyone) should not throw silly stones. ;-)
Since I like Greyhawk, I have no problem with rationalizing that Tenser was busy working on a number of crises that the players are not privy to. Since Bucknard had been working on this particular crisis, Tenser was glad to have new help to put out this one fire while he was working on others. Of course other DMs could come up with a number of reasons they find best suited to their version of Greyhawk.
Keep up the support of all the D&D 3.5 settings, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Eberron.
I'm a wee bit new to the history of Greyhawk. All this great stuff on the message boards and Eric's obvious love of the setting got me curious so I bought a few pdf's off the paizo web site. After reading just the smallest bit of Oerth's History it's obvious that Iuz would be a wee bit jealous about another god (i.e. Kyuss and his armies) on the scene. This got me thinking, wouldn't Iuz be a potential ally to the PC's. I mean, Kyuss seems bad and all; but, there is another bad god that may not want the competion.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
C.
Welcome to Greyhawk, it's a great setting and I really hope you enjoy it!
Iuz has had a tough time dealing with rival, evil gods on Oerth, lately. He supposedly helped banish Vecna during the latter's bid for world domination and supreme overgodhood (see WGA4, Vecna Lives!) around 581CY, and a few years later was duped by Vecna and temporarily absorbed into the latter while the Big V made an attempt to become supreme god of the multiverse (see Die Vecna Die!). So perhaps Iuz has had his fill of battling rival evil gods (at least openly) for the time being... or is it possible that he is ignorant about the whole AoW thing, for some reason?
Although I have all the AoW issues, I haven't read the actual adventures yet (my current campaign is nowhere near the AoW on the Greyhawk timeline)... but if you find a way to incorporate agents of Iuz into the plot... go for it!
Speaking of Old One-Eye, shouldn't he be the only who would know exactly what's going on and what should happen? Where would he stand in all of this? More importantly, how does he feel about the Ebon Triad and what they claim?
I guess only Vecna knows the answers to that.
Damn god of secrets...
Does anyone else think it's kind of silly in Greyhawk that the adventurers are the only ones able to stop the Age of Worms? With so many power players where is everyone else when the events of Redhand unfold?
They just happen to be the ones that were in the right (wrong?) place when the time came. Perhaps important NPCs weren't aware of the situation, or were fighting the same war on a different front, or were fighting a different war, or were letting the PCs be the on-scene pawns, etc, etc, ad infinitum...
As an aside, why question the plot in the context of GH? Do other settings lack uber-NPCs interested in keeping the world intact?
Does anyone else think it's kind of silly in that the adventurers are the only ones able to stop the Age of Worms?
One might take it as a jab at GH :/
They just happen to be the ones that were in the right (wrong?) place when the time came. Perhaps important NPCs weren't aware of the situation, or were fighting the same war on a different front, or were fighting a different war, or were letting the PCs be the on-scene pawns, etc, etc, ad infinitum...
I don't think ignorance is the cause. Tenser knows, and surely the PCs could contact dozens of other high level NPCs.
The fact that there are other events going on in the game world that are more important than the Age of Worms makes the campaign less important.
As an aside, why question the plot in the context of GH? Do other settings lack uber-NPCs interested in keeping the world intact?
Some settings like Eberron (and homebrews) do not have default high level NPCs. The NPCs can scale up as the story requires, but there's no official canon or history of epic level confict by existing NPCs. Some settings like Eberron (and homebrews) also don't have gods or powerful outsiders who are interested in the prime material plane.
One might take it as a jab at GH :/
Silly probably wasn't the best word. It's not a knock on Greyhawk specifically.
My issue is with campaigns in general that are supposed to bring about the end of the prime material plane at 20th level or so. IN a prime material world with a large number of powerful human NPCs, the major players in the world should take an interest in any large scale development that might destroy it.
In settings with high level NPCs, the players know they may be the first line of defense but they definately aren't the last line of defense. This fact diminishes their importance and decreases the epic scope of the campaign.
I don't think ignorance is the cause. Tenser knows, and surely the PCs could contact dozens of other high level NPCs.
Actually Greyhawk doesn't have oodles of high level NPC's running around, Tenser and the Circle of Eight are pretty much the cream of the crop as far as the Flanaess goes. You would probably have a point with regards to Forgotten Realms though.
My read through of the Age of Worms gave me the impression that Tenser co-opted the PC's almost as his own band of roving investigators (sans talking dog). Only "Balakarde" really had a complete picture of what Kyuss was planning and Tenser only gets a complete picture at the same time as the PC's.
Of course if you want high level NPC's to zoom in and defeat Kyuss at the last minute to bail out your campaign then by all means do whats best for your game world.
Of course if you want high level NPC's to zoom in and defeat Kyuss at the last minute to bail out your campaign then by all means do whats best for your game world.
I don't think ignorance is the cause. Tenser knows, and surely the PCs could contact dozens of other high level NPCs.
And Tenser explains quite well why he doesn't wish to get involved. His enemies, which are also high-level NPCs, might involve themselves on the side of Kyuss just for a chance to get Tenser. So if you have high level NPCs help the party in the final battle, there should be some high level NPC villains helping the other side too.
And Tenser explains quite well why he doesn't wish to get involved. His enemies, which are also high-level NPCs, might involve themselves on the side of Kyuss just for a chance to get Tenser. So if you have high level NPCs help the party in the final battle, there should be some high level NPC villains helping the other side too.
How would the villains know that Tenser (or any other high level NPC) is involved? If the enemies are this omnipotent, why wouldn't they know about Kyuss whether Tenser is involved or not? During the final battle with Kyuss, why wouldn't Tenser gate in at the last minute to help out? I don't find this line of reasoning plausible for a epic level LG wizard.
I also don't see how the whole cosmology of Greyhawk fits into AoW. I still haven't read a reasonable explanation for why the gods wouldn't do something to prevent these events from unfolding.
Nice threadjack!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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How would the villains know that Tenser (or any other high level NPC) is involved? If the enemies are this omnipotent, why wouldn't they know about Kyuss whether Tenser is involved or not? During the final battle with Kyuss, why wouldn't Tenser gate in at the last minute to help out? I don't find this line of reasoning plausible for a epic level LG wizard.
I also don't see how the whole cosmology of Greyhawk fits into AoW. I still haven't read a reasonable explanation for why the gods wouldn't do something to prevent these events from unfolding.
Amazing. Truly amazing. You have a gift, but if only you could harness it for the forces of good. Sigh.
Anyway to lob over some obvious answers I'm sure you could have figured out yourself:
1. The evil NPC's wouldn't know. Tenser is overly cautious because he got burned in the past when a high level enemy lured him into an ambush by staging a world shattering crisis.
2. They have spies in Mageport. Mid level dudes who know people in Tenser's stronghold. Maybe Tenser knows about these spies and doesn't remove them for fear that new unknown spies will replace them.
3. The high level NPC's are the type who cast divinations on Tenser daily or weekly. They take a keen interest in thwarting him whenever possible.
4. The evil NPC's have agents in Alhaster. They are scrambling to put together a plan to control the god, but dare not act without knowing whether Tenser will ambush them upon leaving their stronghold. Once Tenser shows up in Alhaster, the evil NPC's figure they can kill two birds with one stone and would head out to ambush Tenser.
5. Tenser doesn't teleport over to strike the killing blow because he might need to get the cavalry together if the PC's fail (which is mentioned in the adventure IIRC). He doesn't know that he will make a difference, the PC's are as powerful as him after all.
6. Kyuss is outside the normal rules of the gods. The GH gods don't step up because they have a web of alliances and relationships. If one of them stepped up to stop Kyuss directly, they risk setting off an apocalypse. Instead, they've chosen horses in the race and gifted them with advantages and protected them until they reached this stage (e.g., the PC's.)
7. Use your imagination to come up with some other explanation for why there is a stalemate among high level powers. Oddly, you may find sources in our own history supporting the idea that this can and does occur (why doesn't the US nuke China now? They know that China has the potential to be an economic/military threat? Why didn't England invade Nazi* Germany before they became a threat.)
8. Because Eberron is sweet. Way cooler than GH. Eberron wouldn't have this problem and would also order the pizza. Eberron doesn't have uber high level NPC's, which makes it entirely reasonable that Lashonna, Dragotha et al haven't taken over the entire campaign world. If there aren't any high level NPC's holding them back, why don't they just attack Sharn? Why don't they destroy the lightning rails and disrupt commerce? Why don't the Eberron gods interfere? Why don't they build a super robot god to fight Kyuss. He could be made of five separate robot lions that form together to make a giant robot god.
That would be sweet.
*Bonus points to me for mentioning Nazis!
Nice threadjack!
I share some blame. Sorry :(
...Because Eberron is sweet. Way cooler than GH. Eberron wouldn't have this problem and would also order the pizza. Eberron doesn't have uber high level NPC's, which makes it entirely reasonable that Lashonna, Dragotha et al haven't taken over the entire campaign world. If there aren't any high level NPC's holding them back, why don't they just attack Sharn? Why don't they destroy the lightning rails and disrupt commerce? Why don't the Eberron gods interfere? Why don't they build a super robot god to fight Kyuss. He could be made of five separate robot lions that form together to make a giant robot god.
That would be sweet...
ROFL :) That's one of the funniest responses I've read in a long time. Nice!
Jack
1. The evil NPC's wouldn't know. Tenser is overly cautious because he got burned in the past when a high level enemy lured him into an ambush by staging a world shattering crisis.
In Greyhawk, Tensor has actually been burned by at least three high level enemies in the past. A powerful agent of Vecna in Vecna Lives, Rary and Robilar in Rary the Traitor, and Tuerny the Merciless in Return of the Eight. So I can see how he might be a little over-cautious. He might even think that the PCs coming to him for help might be an elaborate trap set up by an enemy. I can see Tensor being a little paranoid by this point.
My issue is with campaigns in general that are supposed to bring about the end of the prime material plane at 20th level or so. IN a prime material world with a large number of powerful human NPCs, the major players in the world should take an interest in any large scale development that might destroy it.
Unless there are multiple large-scale developments that might destroy the world unfolding concurrently and continuously. Cue the next RSE. ;-)
--Eric
Unless there are multiple large-scale developments that might destroy the world unfolding concurrently and continuously. Cue the next RSE. ;-)
The key word there is MULTIPLE. It makes preventing the Age of Worms seem like just another typical day in the Realms.
What it comes down to is that adventures, and APs, are stories & outlines that we can each mold & change as personal preference dictates. If someone wants to change the adventures & worlds to fit their own expectations that's their perogative. However picking apart the hard work of the folks who provide us with these great worlds, ideas & quests is rude & unproductive, IMO. If you're having trouble justifying a storyline, change it!
I have a few points to make:
1) Being epic level isn't a job ;-) Each NPC/PC has their own goals, pursuits, and lives to live.
2) If someone had come up to your AoW party sometime during 'Prince of Redhand' for instance and told them "Look, we need you guys over here." do you think they would've dropped everything? I doubt it. Most adventuring parties tend to focus on one thing at a time.
3) Communication. Tenser isn't the operator, or at the top of some global phone list. Unless your AoW party actively sought out allies, I doubt the majority of principal NPCs in Greyhawk would be aware of the AoW until it's too late.
4) Eberron may not have epic NPCs now, but it will. As more material comes out or your own parties advance that high, it'll become populated by them. It's cooooommmmmingg...***dun Dun DUNNNN***
That's my 2 bits (and 4 points). Really though, if you don't like it, change it. Or ask for alternative ideas. Sebastian listed a bunch of great ideas.
J-
The key word there is MULTIPLE.
No. The key word is THREADJACK.
1. The evil NPC's wouldn't know. Tenser is overly cautious because he got burned in the past when a high level enemy lured him into an ambush by staging a world shattering crisis.
The evil NPC's wouldn't know what? About the Age of Worms? What about the good ones? Tenser has no friends? Why trust the PCs? Doesn't he have anyone else he can turn to? And this isn't just about Greyhawk, it's in any setting where there are very strong, good aligned NPCs.
2. They have spies in Mageport. Mid level dudes who know people in Tenser's stronghold. Maybe Tenser knows about these spies and doesn't remove them for fear that new unknown spies will replace them.
But he leaves his mansion all the time. Wouldn't these spies also find out about the PCs based on the activity going on? If he can hide this information from them, why can't he hide his travels?
3. The high level NPC's are the type who cast divinations on Tenser daily or weekly. They take a keen interest in thwarting him whenever possible.
The PCs also have demons scrying on them. There are ways to avoid scrying. If these enemy NPCs can find out about what's going on with Tenser (especially with the spies above) why wouldn't they learn of the PCs, Kyuss and the Age of Worms?
4. The evil NPC's have agents in Alhaster. They are scrambling to put together a plan to control the god, but dare not act without knowing whether Tenser will ambush them upon leaving their stronghold. Once Tenser shows up in Alhaster, the evil NPC's figure they can kill two birds with one stone and would head out to ambush Tenser.
So which is the greater threat, these NPCs or Kyuss, a freaking demi-god walking the earth? And where are these NPCs when the PCs thwart Kyuss? Just standing on the sidelines "just in case" Tenser shows up?
The fact that there IS a sideline that can interfere means the main game (the PCs and Kyuss) are just some game. If NPCs will not make an effort to influence the game one way or the other, then how important can it be in the first place?
5. Tenser doesn't teleport over to strike the killing blow because he might need to get the cavalry together if the PC's fail (which is mentioned in the adventure IIRC). He doesn't know that he will make a difference, the PC's are as powerful as him after all.
That's exactly my point. He's the cavalry. The PCs are the front line, not the only line.
6. Kyuss is outside the normal rules of the gods. The GH gods don't step up because they have a web of alliances and relationships. If one of them stepped up to stop Kyuss directly, they risk setting off an apocalypse. Instead, they've chosen horses in the race and gifted them with advantages and protected them until they reached this stage (e.g., the PC's.)
I don't see this in the AP at all. How is Kyuss outside the normal rules of the gods? If Kyuss walks the earth and kills their followers, wouldn't they do something to intervene? You can say the PCs are their instruments, but then it's just a puppet play for the gods. What if the PCs fail? Will the gods do nothing?
7. Use your imagination to come up with some other explanation for why there is a stalemate among high level powers. Oddly, you may find sources in our own history supporting the idea that this can and does occur (why doesn't the US nuke China now? They know that China has the potential to be an economic/military threat? Why didn't England invade Nazi* Germany before they became a threat.)
Apocalypse is apocalypse. The superpowers will not stand by idly when other countries are planning to launch a nuclear strike against them. Not just building and preparing, but actually pushing the launch button. That is exactly what the Age of Worms will do to everyone in the Prime.
Eberron wouldn't have this problem and would also order the pizza. Eberron doesn't have uber high level NPC's, which makes it entirely reasonable that Lashonna, Dragotha et al haven't taken over the entire campaign world.
All in good time. Taking over Khorvaire isn't going to release Katashka. You're absolutely right though, there's nothing stopping them from their executing their long awaited plans except the PCs. Now just happens to be the time of release.
If there aren't any high level NPC's holding them back, why don't they just attack Sharn?
They did. They released the ulgurstaasta but the PCs stopped them.
Why don't they destroy the lightning rails and disrupt commerce?
What purpose would that serve them? How would it bring about the Age of Worms?
Why don't the Eberron gods interfere?
They never interfere. Some doubt they exist at all.
Even powerful outsiders have no interest in the prime material plane. There is no apparant tie of mortal souls to the power of planar denizens, thus no incentive for their interference.
Why don't they build a super robot god to fight Kyuss. He could be made of five separate robot lions that form together to make a giant robot god.
There are no robots in Eberron.
1) Being epic level isn't a job ;-) Each NPC/PC has their own goals, pursuits, and lives to live.
...and if a huge event like the Age of Worms will interfere with their goals, pursuits and lives then it makes little sense for them to ignore it.
2) If someone had come up to your AoW party sometime during 'Prince of Redhand' for instance and told them "Look, we need you guys over here." do you think they would've dropped everything? I doubt it. Most adventuring parties tend to focus on one thing at a time.
They're called plot hooks. Adventurers generally go where they are needed most. If I presented several different new story arcs during the Prince of Redhand my players would certainly consider all of them and decide which one was most important, regardless of the past work they've done to prevent the Age of Worms.
3) Communication. Tenser isn't the operator, or at the top of some global phone list. Unless your AoW party actively sought out allies, I doubt the majority of principal NPCs in Greyhawk would be aware of the AoW until it's too late.
The PCs should be 20th level before the confrontation with Kyuss. At that level they could easily communicate with nearly any leader on the prime material plane. If there are high level contacts to be sought out there is no logical reason why you could not find an audience with them.
And anytime after the Spire of Long Shadows, Tenser/Manzorian could begin gathering forces for the final epic showdown.
4) Eberron may not have epic NPCs now, but it will. As more material comes out or your own parties advance that high, it'll become populated by them. It's cooooommmmmingg...***dun Dun DUNNNN***
No, the general philosophy I've witnessed is that Eberron presents NPCs as low level and provides means of scaling them depending on the needs of the plot. This is, IMO, much more useful than the absolute canon presented in other settings.
Has anyone else given any thought as to how Iuz will react to Redhand now that Zeech is no longer in control? Obviously a lot will depend on the new rulers. New rulers that are paladins, clerics of gods like Heironeous and St. Cuthbert, or other committed do-gooders are likely to see some form of retribution. But what about neutral and evil parties?
I guess it comes down to what Iuz wants from Redhand. Does anyone more steeped in Greyhawk lore than I want to take a stab at that? Does Iuz want slaves / vassals, tribute, a buffer zone against other states, a port on the Nyr Dyv? And once we determine what he wants, how much is he willing to commit or risk in order to get what he wants?
Has anyone else given any thought as to how Iuz will react to Redhand now that Zeech is no longer in control? Obviously a lot will depend on the new rulers. New rulers that are paladins, clerics of gods like Heironeous and St. Cuthbert, or other committed do-gooders are likely to see some form of retribution. But what about neutral and evil parties?
I guess it comes down to what Iuz wants from Redhand. Does anyone more steeped in Greyhawk lore than I want to take a stab at that? Does Iuz want slaves / vassals, tribute, a buffer zone against other states, a port on the Nyr Dyv? And once we determine what he wants, how much is he willing to commit or risk in order to get what he wants?
Considering Iuz didn't have a very tight grip on Redhand to begin with, I doubt he'd be extremely alarmed if the PCs took over. He might have his Bandit Lands proxy (Null? Vayne?) initially send forces to test the defenses of the realm to see if Alhaster, still reeling from the whole AoW business, was an easy target. Should it prove not to be, Iuz would still have his BL proxy continually engage in piracy, border skirmishes, & the like, but it's doubtful full-scale warfare would break out (at least after the initial "test" attack).
However, should the new rulers of Alhaster turn out to be firmly on the side of good & seek to ally with or even join other good nations, then Iuz would view this as a serious problem, & do whatever it takes.
A likely scenario I envision is Redhand allying with, & perhaps even rejoining the Shield Lands, then both entities, perhaps with more aid from Furyondy, Veluna, &/or Urnst, engaged in a great push to make the Shields Lands whole once again. Redhand could be ground zero for a second Greyhawk Wars.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The evil NPC's wouldn't know what?
The weight of an african sparrow.
About the Age of Worms?
Yes.
What about the good ones?
No good ones exist. The short bus got in a crash on the way to Eberron, killing them all.
Tenser has no friends?
He has bad hygiene and wipes his butt with the wrong hand. No one stands too close to him.
Why trust the PCs?
He's lonely and has a fetish for dwarves.
Doesn't he have anyone else he can turn to?
See above regarding the short bus and his hygiene. Also, he's an orphan.
And this isn't just about Greyhawk, it's in any setting where there are very strong, good aligned NPCs.
EBERRON RULEZ!1!!
But he leaves his mansion all the time. Wouldn't these spies also find out about the PCs based on the activity going on?
Good point. I missed that. I've got nothing to respond. I can't think of any good explanation. I'm stumped. I just wish I had something, anything. You win! The AoW is poorly thought out, just like the whole world of Greyhawk.
EBERRON RULEZ!1!!
If he can hide this information from them, why can't he hide his travels?
He likes to send postcards. That's half the point of traveling for Tenser. The problem is he always sends them to the enemy agents. Usually with suggestive comments.
The PCs also have demons scrying on them. There are ways to avoid scrying. If these enemy NPCs can find out about what's going on with Tenser (especially with the spies above) why wouldn't they learn of the PCs, Kyuss and the Age of Worms?
Um...hmmm...I guess you're right about that too. You would think there would be some evidence that other evil NPCs are acting with respect to the AoW. Like an NPC antagonist wielding a major artifact who is also seeking out the Library of Last Resort.
So which is the greater threat, these NPCs or Kyuss, a freaking demi-god walking the earth?
Who am I to judge. I'm going to go with the greatest threat being the one posed to my sanity by trying to respond to you.
And where are these NPCs when the PCs thwart Kyuss?
They have a fear of worms. Plus, they're really busy counting money. And pimping. That's what makes them evil.
Just standing on the sidelines "just in case" Tenser shows up?
Yes.
The fact that there IS a sideline that can interfere means the main game (the PCs and Kyuss) are just some game. If NPCs will not make an effort to influence the game one way or the other, then how important can it be in the first place?
It's not.
That's exactly my point. He's the cavalry. The PCs are the front line, not the only line.
I thought your point was: EBERRON RULEZ!1!! Sure, I cut out your unassailable logical argument (GH has high level NPC's, high level NPC's are completely unbelieviable, Eberron doesn't have high level NPC's, EBERRON RULEZ!1!!), but it's basically all there.
I don't see this in the AP at all. How is Kyuss outside the normal rules of the gods?
You're right. I made that up. Shucks. It's not in black and white, and I know that straying from the text gives you chronic bedwetting, so let's just pretend I never said that.
If Kyuss walks the earth and kills their followers, wouldn't they do something to intervene?
Nah. They were going to do so themselves eventually.
You can say the PCs are their instruments, but then it's just a puppet play for the gods. What if the PCs fail?
The campaign is over. :-(
Will the gods do nothing?
Nope.
Apocalypse is apocalypse. The superpowers will not stand by idly when other countries are planning to launch a nuclear strike against them. Not just building and preparing, but actually pushing the launch button. That is exactly what the Age of Worms will do to everyone in the Prime.
It's a good thing that whether the apocalypse is occurring can be determined objectively. That way people can base their decision on concrete facts, and not speculate on what the consequences of their action will actually be. I geuss if you knew for a fact that the apocalypse was coming, not acting would be irrational.
You will give me a call when you hear, won't you? I'd hate to be the only person that didn't get to react rationally in the face of the impending apocalypse.
All in good time. Taking over Khorvaire isn't going to release Katashka. You're absolutely right though, there's nothing stopping them from their executing their long awaited plans except the PCs. Now just happens to be the time of release.
EBERRON RULEZ!!!1!!!1!!1 IN YOUR FACE GH!!1!!1!!!
They did. They released the ulgurstaasta but the PCs stopped them.
EBERRON RULEZ!!!1!!!1!!1 BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE GAME!!!1!!1!
What purpose would that serve them? How would it bring about the Age of Worms?
Why wouldn't it help the Age of Worms? Are you saying that if the lightning rail were destroyed that it wouldn't effect the world of Eberron? Are you saying that the lightning rail is totally irrelevant to Eberron and could be removed without anyone noticing?
They never interfere. Some doubt they exist at all.Even powerful outsiders have no interest in the prime material plane. There is no apparant tie of mortal souls to the power of planar denizens, thus no incentive for their interference.
That's another sweet thing about Eberron. Unlike in other lesser game worlds, the NPC's of Eberron have doubts and uncertainties about the world they inhabit. Way better than GH.
There are no robots in Eberron.
What about warforged. Are you saying that the warforged are humans? Are you saying that they are made of metal but are not robots? Are you saying that the Eberron gods could not make robots if they wanted to?
Very amusing Sebastian. I'll skip the points you ignored, hoping perhaps someone else can reasonably address them.
Um...hmmm...I guess you're right about that too. You would think there would be some evidence that other evil NPCs are acting with respect to the AoW. Like an NPC antagonist wielding a major artifact who is also seeking out the Library of Last Resort.
I don't have the module in front of me, but I thought he was seeking the Library for the Eye of Vecna. What does this have to do with knowledge or action for or against the Age of Worms?
It's a good thing that whether the apocalypse is occurring can be determined objectively. That way people can base their decision on concrete facts, and not speculate on what the consequences of their action will actually be. I geuss if you knew for a fact that the apocalypse was coming, not acting would be irrational.
If they knew the missiles were in the air, would they simply sit back and let them land? Or would they strike back? Or fire on them? That is your analogy. The US and China may be in at a standstill now, but if missiles started launching people aren't going to sit by and let that happen. The return of Kyuss will bring about the attention of high level NPCs.
Why wouldn't it help the Age of Worms? Are you saying that if the lightning rail were destroyed that it wouldn't effect the world of Eberron? Are you saying that the lightning rail is totally irrelevant to Eberron and could be removed without anyone noticing?
I don't think it would help the Age of Worms. I don't think it would have a major impact on the world of Eberron, at least not so far as releasing the rajahs from the Age of Demons. It would be a minor economic setback. What would Dragotha and Lashonna gain from this?
What about warforged. Are you saying that the warforged are humans? Are you saying that they are made of metal but are not robots? Are you saying that the Eberron gods could not make robots if they wanted to?
Warforged are not humans, but they are not robots. They are constructs. I'm not even sure if the Eberron gods exist at all, so I can't say what they could or couldn't build.
The OP asked about Iuz, which brings up the topic of high level NPCs. How appropriate are they for AoW? Not just in Greyhawk, but in any campaign (including homebrews where you determine their frequency).
I may be remembering incorrectly, but as I recall, Tensor and Co. are busy during the Kyuss showdown. Isn't he leading his hippy friends in some epic dimensional anchor drumming circle?
Or maybe he was scribbling designs of his own color-coordinated robotic defense force? I forget which.
Please allow me to address some of these points, if a bit out of order.
And anytime after the Spire of Long Shadows, Tenser/Manzorian could begin gathering forces for the final epic showdown.
I disagree here. Remember that Balakarde/Bucknard was doing this same "OMG Kyuss is coming with the Age of Worms" stuff 16 years ago and nothing happened. He went to the Spire, he went to Alhaster, and nothing really came of it except he got himself killed. Now different people are visiting Tensor a decade and a half later with the same story. Tensor can easily think that this really isn't that pressing. Should he be concerned? Yes. That is why he is helping the PC's. Should he gather forces for an epic showdown that might amount to nothing? Nope.
...and if a huge event like the Age of Worms will interfere with their goals, pursuits and lives then it makes little sense for them to ignore it.
True. But until the absolute very end, there is no reason for these other epic level people to drop what they are doing to stop something that might maybe happen. After all, a high-level group of adventurers (the PCs) is already taking care of it, right?
In Greyhawk, there are only a handful of epic-level good guys. There are lots of high-level baddies (Iuz, Turney, Tharizdun, Rary, Iggwilv, etc.) for them to monitor and worry about. Bear in mind that near the end, the PCs have a few artifacts and have destroyed Dragotha's phylactery. They seem to be winning, so why should the others worry about this yet? The PCs are high level, and they are handling it.
I see it that once the Age of Worms has begun, the other epic level people will probably be all "oops, we should be helping with that. Our bad." I see it like this: the PCs are the first responders. They have been dealing with this the whole time, so they can go in right now. The epic NPCs need to wrap up the loose ends of whatever they are doing and will show up as soon as they can. Unfortunately, since Kyuss will no longer be weak and confined to the monolith after a certain point, they will be too late if they show up after that point. Will they arrive in time to save the world if the PCs fail? That is up to the DM.
As for why the gods don't intervene, that is a better question for the Forgotten Realms people. In Greyhawk, the only gods who intervene directly are the ones who live on the prime, who tend to be either evil or insane. In the Forgotten Realms, gods pop down to the pub for drinks so I don't know why they wouldn't stop Kyuss. Maybe they're too busy telling Elminster how great he is.
I don't know jack about Eberron or why the warforged dinosaurs don't just run Kyuss over with their trains. Or whatever. :)
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Actually Greyhawk doesn't have oodles of high level NPC's running around, Tenser and the Circle of Eight are pretty much the cream of the crop as far as the Flanaess goes. You would probably have a point with regards to Forgotten Realms though.
I don't think ignorance is the cause. Tenser knows, and surely the PCs could contact dozens of other high level NPCs.
Alas, you're forgetting about Philidor, in the Vesve, Cobb Darg in Irongate, the ruler of Rel Astra (sorry, forgot his name), the high priest of Rao in Veluna (level 21+), that human (?) wanderer, disciple of Istus near Medegia (the "knows everything but wouldn't tell you guy", something like a 50+ in all knowledge skills...) and many more high level characters (the mage of the Vale, Turin Deathstalker from Greyhawk, Iuz and his greater bone circle...).
Tensor can easily think that this really isn't that pressing. Should he be concerned? Yes. That is why he is helping the PC's. Should he gather forces for an epic showdown that might amount to nothing? Nope.
He (or any other high level NPC) could contact other forces of good and share this information. At this stage the PCs should be fairly famous, especially after the incident in the Champion's Games. If the PCs wanted to they could ensure that others are aware that there may be a showdown.
After defeating Dragotha there should be very little doubt that Kyuss is going to return.
True. But until the absolute very end, there is no reason for these other epic level people to drop what they are doing to stop something that might maybe happen. After all, a high-level group of adventurers (the PCs) is already taking care of it, right?
This begs the question: what if the adventurers ask for help? It's understandable if the PCs say "we got it covered", but if they want an audience to persuade these high level heroes, what logic would they use to reject the offer?
In Greyhawk, there are only a handful of epic-level good guys. There are lots of high-level baddies (Iuz, Turney, Tharizdun, Rary, Iggwilv, etc.) for them to monitor and worry about. Bear in mind that near the end, the PCs have a few artifacts and have destroyed Dragotha's phylactery. They seem to be winning, so why should the others worry about this yet? The PCs are high level, and they are handling it.
This diminishes the party's accomplishments though. The PCs are simply "handling" what others could do but choose not to. If it's not important enough for the other NPCs to get involved then is the fate of the world really at stake?
I see it that once the Age of Worms has begun, the other epic level people will probably be all "oops, we should be helping with that. Our bad." I see it like this: the PCs are the first responders. They have been dealing with this the whole time, so they can go in right now. The epic NPCs need to wrap up the loose ends of whatever they are doing and will show up as soon as they can.
This is the main issue I have. It doesn't seem as epic if someone else will eventually show up and clean up whatever mess the PCs can't get out of.
As for the warforged dinosaurs, they don't exist. There are no default high level forces in Eberron that would be able to stand against Kyuss. And the few lightning rails that exist in Eberron are primarily used for rapid transportation between nations and climates without simulating months of travel time; they are not weapons.
Just wanted to add that if I were going to use a campaign setting (homebrew or licensed) with epic level good NPCs and gods I would rather run a campaign where stopping the destruction of the world requires the PCs to be gods, or near gods. Since this isn't a very attractive option in 3.5, I would rather play a 1-20 lvl campaign where the climax has less to do with stopping a world apocalypse. Save a nation instead of the world. Scale back the importance. Or take the fight to another plane. Or involve all of the major players in the world, using affiliations or whatnot. In any event, as Mr. Jacobs has said, if you're going to make "generic" adventures you should avoid epic world-shaking events.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Very amusing Sebastian. I'll skip the points you ignored, hoping perhaps someone else can reasonably address them.
I doubt that anyone can reasonably address them to your satisfaction, but hope springs eternal.
I don't have the module in front of me, but I thought he was seeking the Library for the Eye of Vecna. What does this have to do with knowledge or action for or against the Age of Worms?
It's step 1. Sorta like the underpants gnomes of South Park:
Step 1: Get the hand of Vecna.
Step 2: *shrug*
Step 3: Usurp Kyuss's power and become a god
If they knew the missiles were in the air, would they simply sit back and let them land? Or would they strike back? Or fire on them? That is your analogy. The US and China may be in at a standstill now, but if missiles started launching people aren't going to sit by and let that happen. The return of Kyuss will bring about the attention of high level NPCs.
What if the missiles aren't in the air, what if Soviet boats are putting missiles in Cuba. Maybe if the PC's fail, other epic means of ending the Age of Worms are available. What if other people believe other means are available? The people of Greyhawk do not have a direct line to the DM. They don't know that Kyuss=the apocalpyse.
I don't think it would help the Age of Worms. I don't think it would have a major impact on the world of Eberron, at least not so far as releasing the rajahs from the Age of Demons. It would be a minor economic setback. What would Dragotha and Lashonna gain from this?
My point was not meant to be substantive, but to show you how annoying it is to have someone respond with absurd questions that put assumptions into your mouth. It makes conversation very difficult. Here's more to prove the point:
Wouldn't disrupting the lightning rail cause problems for the people of Eberron? If travel were to break down, wouldn't that cause fundamental problems for the socities of Eberron? Are you saying that the lightning rails only have a minor economic effect on the 5 kingdoms? If they are of negligable importance, why do the citizens of Eberron spend so much money building lightning rails? Wouldn't any heroes of Eberron be distracted and spread thin guarding the lightning rails and therefore leave the city unprotected?
I can keep asking these questions until you get fed up and start posting things like "EBERRON IS DUMB!!! I LUV GREYHAWK!!11!"
Warforged are not humans, but they are not robots. They are constructs. I'm not even sure if the Eberron gods exist at all, so I can't say what they could or couldn't build.
And constructs are different from robots in what way?
FORM BLAZING SWORD!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As for the warforged dinosaurs, they don't exist. There are no default high level forces in Eberron that would be able to stand against Kyuss. And the few lightning rails that exist in Eberron are primarily used for rapid transportation between nations and climates without simulating months of travel time; they are not weapons.
So, when your players say "why the heck are these lightning rails all over the place?" you respond "because traveling is boring to the game. It's much cooler to not waste time doing that and just cut to the action." And you find that explanation satisfactory.
But when they say "why doesn't Tenser get off his lazy butt and take care of the Age of Worms?" you respond "There's no logical reason. High level PC's are unrealistic and dumb and GH is an inferior setting." And you find that explanation unsatisfactory.
I fail to see the difference.
After defeating Dragotha there should be very little doubt that Kyuss is going to return.
True, but I see it as the PCs are the only ones who can get there in time. Not because the others can't teleport or anything, but because they need to wrap up whatever it is they are doing.
This begs the question: what if the adventurers ask for help? It's understandable if the PCs say "we got it covered", but if they want an audience to persuade these high level heroes, what logic would they use to reject the offer?
This is a harder question. My players are the type to say "we got it covered." If your players want to get the NPCs to take care of things for them, I am not sure what to say. Perhaps come up with other Kyuss-related threats for the NPCs to handle while the PCs do the path? I have never had players that wanted to let NPCs handle things for them. I admit I don't know. Why don't 1st-level PCs get 5th-level NPCs to handle things? This logic is there at all levels of the game, really.
This diminishes the party's accomplishments though. The PCs are simply "handling" what others could do but choose not to. If it's not important enough for the other NPCs to get involved then is the fate of the world really at stake?
It isn't that it isn't important enough. Look at it this way: by the time the NPCs are aware of the threat, the PCs have been persuing this for a while. They are basically specialists in the Kyuss-stopping business, especially after the Spire of Long Shadows. They know more about what is going on than anybody, having first hand experience with it. They are the best people for the job at this point. The fact that no less than the famous Tensor feels that the PCs are the most qualified to stop the cult of Kyuss should enhance their accomplishments, not diminish them.
This is the main issue I have. It doesn't seem as epic if someone else will eventually show up and clean up whatever mess the PCs can't get out of.
You left of the end of my paragraph where I said:
Unfortunately, since Kyuss will no longer be weak and confined to the monolith after a certain point, they will be too late if they show up after that point.
I plan to have the "cavalry" be too late. If the PCs can't stop it, then Kyuss is free and the Flaness gets a lot more wormy.
It's step 1. Sorta like the underpants gnomes of South Park:
Step 1: Get the hand of Vecna.
Step 2: *shrug*
Step 3: Usurp Kyuss's power and become a god
Again, I don't have the module in front of me, but I don't remember there being a connection between the persuit of the hand of Vecna and Kyuss. It was simply a coincidence that both parties were at the Library of Last Resort looking for knowledge. You were using this as an example of high level NPCs doing something about Kyuss; I don't believe there was a connection to Kyuss in this case.
What if the missiles aren't in the air, what if Soviet boats are putting missiles in Cuba. Maybe if the PC's fail, other epic means of ending the Age of Worms are available. What if other people believe other means are available? The people of Greyhawk do not have a direct line to the DM. They don't know that Kyuss=the apocalpyse.
There may be some people who don't know that nuclear bombs=apocalypse, but once the green worms are infesting the countryside it will be apparent. The fact that there is a "cleaning crew" at all dims the PC spotlight.
Wouldn't disrupting the lightning rail cause problems for the people of Eberron? If travel were to break down, wouldn't that cause fundamental problems for the socities of Eberron? Are you saying that the lightning rails only have a minor economic effect on the 5 kingdoms?
In the eyes of Lashonna, Dragotha and the Lords of Dust the effect is insignificant. They deal in timelines of hundreds of thousands of years. Derailing the lightning rail would do very little to disrupt the economic progress of Khorvaire when viewed at this scale.
If they are of negligable importance, why do the citizens of Eberron spend so much money building lightning rails? Wouldn't any heroes of Eberron be distracted and spread thin guarding the lightning rails and therefore leave the city unprotected?
Guarding the lightning rails is the duty of low level NPCs. Again, they aren't that important to the world, especially in relationship to high level NPCs. Only a small percentage of citizens of Eberron spend money on lightning rails, and they do so for profit. It is a luxury, not a necessity, and surely isn't a concern for the Lords of Dust, at least not before the release of a rajah in any event. Once Katashka is released I'm sure one of the rakshasa sleeper agents on board the lightning rails will derail it to prevent troop movement. In the meantime, the lightning rail is probably used by the Lords of Dust, Lashonna and their agents, so why would they seek to destroy it?
And constructs are different from robots in what way?
It's semantics. Robots are a type of d20 construct, but they do not exist in Eberron (or in D&D, with the possible exception of the Barrier Peaks).
So, when your players say "why the heck are these lightning rails all over the place?" you respond "because traveling is boring to the game. It's much cooler to not waste time doing that and just cut to the action." And you find that explanation satisfactory.
Oh no, there are plenty of an ingame reason for them, but none of them are related to destroying rajahs.
But when they say "why doesn't Tenser get off his lazy butt and take care of the Age of Worms?" you respond "There's no logical reason. High level PC's are unrealistic and dumb and GH is an inferior setting." And you find that explanation unsatisfactory.
Again, there is a metagame reason and an ingame reason. The train has both but Tenser only has one.
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You know what I want to know? In Star Wars IV: A New Hope, why'd the death star have to get clear of Yavin to destroy Yavin IV? Why didn't it just blow Yavin up? Didn't the Empire realize that blowing up Yavin would do the job quicker and more efficiently? Surely they must have known that blowing up Yavin would've destroyed Yavin IV. When I adapt Star Wars to Eberron, I'm gonna have the Dark Jedi Warforged blow up Yavin. That would make more sense.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Again, there is a metagame reason and an ingame reason. The train has both but Tenser only has one.
Failing to recognize something's existence is not the same thing as it not existing.
And for what it's worth (which is a headache and another 6 points of intelligence drain), the lightning rails were added to Eberron for a meta-game reason (i.e., fast transport). Tenser is in Greyhawk because back in the day, somebody played him up to very high levels, built the campaign setting around him, and sold the campaign setting. (i.e., an in game reason).
You waste so much potential arguing narrow points and asserting subjective ideas as objective truths that it makes my teeth hurt. You have truly raised the art of trolling to epic heights, and I salute you for the effort, but wish you would just have a conversation with us and respect our opinions.
And on that note, one more thing:
EBERRON RULEZ!!!1!!1111!!!!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You know what I want to know? In Star Wars IV: A New Hope, why'd the death star have to get clear of Yavin to destroy Yavin IV? Why didn't it just blow Yavin up? Didn't the Empire realize that blowing up Yavin would do the job quicker and more efficiently? Surely they must have known that blowing up Yavin would've destroyed Yavin IV. When I adapt Star Wars to Eberron, I'm gonna have the Dark Jedi Warforged blow up Yavin. That would make more sense.
You know what bugs me. Is the Death Star capable of ftl travel? That thing is huge - if they can make it move ftl, they could make anything move ftl. Instead of building a big cannon, they could just strap ftl devices to planets and send them into the sun.
Also, why not just use the Star Wars ftl technology to things into planets. That's got to be as effective as destroying them with a ray gun.
Also, is C3P0 a robot or warforged? Can he combine with any other robots to form a super robot? Why not? Doesn't the alliance realize that giant robot technology is the only way to defeat the empire?
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Also, is C3P0 a robot or warforged? Can he combine with any other robots to form a super robot? Why not? Doesn't the alliance realize that giant robot technology is the only way to defeat the empire?
Come on, he's a robot. Don't be ridiculous. He can't join with other robots.
And can warforged be rangers? How about power rangers? With laser swords? And they could turn into a mega zord warforged and beat Kyuss that way. Why would the characters have to beat Kyuss with warforged mega zord power rangers?Could the power rangers blow up the death star?
So which is the greater threat, these NPCs or Kyuss, a freaking demi-god walking the earth?
Who am I to judge. I'm going to go with the greatest threat being the one posed to my sanity by trying to respond to you.
Fear not the Age of Worms. The stars are right! Iä, Shub-Takasi!
Or is it Takasithotep?
:P
The key word there is MULTIPLE.
No. The key word is THREADJACK.
Yes, but it has become SO funny! One response had me laughing harder than I've laughed in years.
Admittedly, we've passed absurd quite a few posts back :)
Jack