A few points...
1. On the Greyhawk cosmology, and why the gods don't do anything to stop the AoW:
a) the gods of Greyhawk who do not dwell on the Prime Material plane (i.e., Oerth) are bound by a pact of non-intervention, which forbids them from intervening directly in events that occur on Oerth (I'm at work right now, but I believe this was stated in the Atlas of the Flanaess, in the "From the Ashes" boxed set). For any god to do so would risk open war with other gods, which could have results that would be just as apocalyptic as the AoW... that being the case, let the mortals save themselves--they were, after all, granted free will and the potential to alter the destiny of the world.
While the gods of Greyhawk might be saddened to lose the Oerth and their followers to the AoW, they may derive their energies from a plethora of alternate Oerths (not just one), as per Michael Moorcock's concept of the multiverse, or may even have followers on other prime material worlds (perhaps they are known by different names there), so the loss of the Flanaess might have only a modest effect on their divine powers.
That essentially leaves Iuz (and perhaps a handful of demigods or quasi-deities on Oerth to counter the AoW). As stated in a previous post, Iuz was pretty badly shaken by Vecna in the not so distant past. The quasi deities (Keoghtom, etc.) are likely out roaming the planes and have only a modest interest in or awareness of the goings-on in the Flanaess. Zagyg is mad, etc. You get the picture.
I see some really nasty stuff happening on our own Earth, but I have yet to see proof that some divine entity cares enough about our situation to do something about it... that, or, like the gods of Greyhawk, they've decided to let mortals solve their own problems and take control of their own destiny (granted, our real life problems do not seem to be of divine origin... although some might attribute them to "Satan"). Aside from that, I don't think gods are necessarily ominiscient--they might not realize the extent to which Oerth is in dire peril. The Greek gods were notorious for making big blunders, for their lack of ominiscience, and for generally acting just like humans.
2. Why does Tenser not do anything about the impending apocalypse?
As others have stated, Tenser has been burned repeatedly. Perhaps he is not convinced that the AoW will be as bad as the prophecies make it out to be, or that it will even happen (this is totally hypothetical--I do NOT have my AoW stuff at hand at the moment and have not read it that closely to begin with). How many times have religious groups come knocking on my door, prediciting the end of the world by the end of the year? Countless. And they didn't get me in a panic or otherwise doing something to help counter their prophecies. Perhaps Tenser is in the same situation (again, I don't have my materials, I may be way off base here). He'll provide some guidance and suggestions to apparently sincere do gooders, but aside from that...
OR, perhaps some other factors are at work (hostages? high level spells/curses???, etc.), which are preventing Tenser and other key good guys from getting involved (and from even explaining why they can't get involved... simply saying "I cannot help you, and I cannot tell you why" might have your PCs truly wonder what's going on, and they need never know the truth).
3. Getting in touch with high level good NPCs to avert the AoW:
a) The Circle of Eight notwithstanding, this assumes that all of these high level good guys (and they are few) know each other and are in regular contact (even so-called "good" people may have their rivalries and refuse to cooperate with one another). The Flanaess is roughly the size of the US (if I remember correctly), there are dozens of countries, and no telephone or internet... even with magic, I'm not convinced that word necessarily travels as a fast as you might believe (my Greyhawk campaign is quite low magic), even when a catatastrophe is at hand. Perhaps NPC Z is away on a quest when the magical message reaches his Tower... I don't know...
b) If your PCs do successfully contact other good, high level NPCs, perhaps the latter dismiss the PCs as flakes, or perhaps they take their word seriously and do get involved. Getting in touch with them might prove to be a time consuming endeavour in itself, something they might not wish to gamble on. Yet if they did manage to contact some powerful good folk, this might produce a variety of scenarios:
. the good NPCs kick Kyuss's butt, and save the world on behalf of your PCs -- end of campaign;
. the good NPCs get involved, but Kyuss or his minions kill them all -- now it's really up to the PCs to save the world! (a great way to really shake up the world, and eliminate high level NPCs, if you don't like their presence in the game world);
. the PCs go against Kyuss on their own and get killed -- and if you don't want high level NPCs mopping up after them successfully, then either the high level NPCs don't show up on time to save the day, or they too are killed by Kyuss, and the AoW comes to pass (why shouldn't it? why can't evil win?... that might make for a really cool campaign--life after the AoW!)
All this to say, the presence of high level NPCs does not take away from the key role of PCs in the campaign... and the fact that high level NPCs should not be taken as fool-proof safety net.
However you want to look at it, you can always find an explanation for why high level NPCs don't get involved other than "they are too busy with bigger things." Use your imagination, it's what the game is all about.
And for the record, I agree that APs should be limited to scenarios that affect the fate of nations/regions, and not the entire world, especially if one is neither interested in running a post-apocalypse campaign, or in having the world saved by powerful NPCs when the PCs fail. This definitely "cheapens" the campaign.
I hope this was of use to the original poster, and to the others involved in the debate. I hate nothing more than turning off potential Greyhawk players through rudeness and bickering.
|
I'm a wee bit new to the history of Greyhawk. All this great stuff on the message boards and Eric's obvious love of the setting got me curious so I bought a few pdf's off the paizo web site. After reading just the smallest bit of Oerth's History it's obvious that Iuz would be a wee bit jealous about another god (i.e. Kyuss and his armies) on the scene. This got me thinking, wouldn't Iuz be a potential ally to the PC's. I mean, Kyuss seems bad and all; but, there is another bad god that may not want the competion.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
C.
Actually, I do have thoughts on this, but...I've been feeling that eerie psychic I can almost read the writers' mind feeling about the whole Savage Tide. Like when I game mastered two of the battles from Attack of the Clones in my West End Star Wars game nearly identical to the movie, about 2 years before the Phantom Menace came out. So I'm not even going to share my speculations, because I think I might let slip some spoiler, and people might throw rotten fruit at me.
|
|
Another thought on the major power brokers of Greyhawk.
Consider how World War I got started. Forgive me if I'm a little rusty on exact details.
Serbian nationals assassinated the Emperor of Austria Hungary. A chain reaction brought about by Germany and other countries' numerous mutual defense pacts meant that within a short time thereafter Germany was at war with dang near half the world. If the real heavy hitters in Greyhawk started choosing sides and operating overtly, a similar situation could occur, embroiling the whole of Greyhawk in a mystical and/or deitical and/or multidimensional conflagration the scope of which would make the Age of Worms look like a crop infestation by boll weevils.
As such, all the deities and all the Tensers, Iuz's, Demogorgons, Zagygs, and Mordenkainens are content to sit this one out, because noone wants to be the first one on the dance floor. Let the detante stand. Let the plebeians take care of the pest control.
Which is essentially what Twice Born said above....
So why is Demogorgon doing his thing now? Just as Hitler was emboldened by the League of Nations' utter lack of concern for Mussolini's marching into Ethiopia, so Demogorgon is impressed that Kyuss pulled all the crap he pulled and NOT ONE DEITY LIFTED A FINGER TO INTERCEDE. Maybe a heal spell here, a resurrection there, but no direct involvement. A bunch of scraggly player characters had to do the job on Kyuss. Demogorgon's too tough and too clever and too arrogant for those pleebs, or so he thinks. And the metaphysical heirarchy will just sit back twiddling its collective thumbs while Demogorgon turns all the sentients on Oerth into slavering maniacs.
|
Greyhawks rocks out with it's C**K out..and Ebberon Suxxors can go home...
I was trying to explain it terms you youngsters might understand. But, since half or more of you can't even write a sentence in English, let me 'splain. AoW was great. I have been running games since the early 80's. Most of my group is only familiar with FR, or my homebrews,or other games, like Glorantha, but they all made an effort to pick up at least rudimentary knowledge of GH. Now, I can't wait for Savage Tide, and hope there are some Easter Eggs, like when they learned that Brazzemal was the Dragon from Against the Giants. Now that we learned that, when AoW is over in Delaware, I cannot wait to get them doing Istvin. Mainly because they will recognize the setting, names etc...
Takasi, my man, why are you so opposed to trying Greyhawk? You seem really intelligent, well read and an OK guy. How about trying it in old JG? Wilderlands, City State, etc...why so adamant about Ebberon? I tried an Ebberon game, and it is not for me. What is wrong about making it a generic setting? Ebberon is far from Generic, am I mistaken? Generic D&D does not have Lightning Rails, Persistant Magic, Warforged, Dragonmarks etc...so making them Ebberon compliant, is actually leading to non Generic, and more campaign specific, am I wrong? I mean are the 3.5 Gods in Ebberon? NO. Are Dragonmarks in any other setting?? Hell, are Dragons even viable opponents in Ebberon? So Ebberon, like Dark Sun, Planescape, and others are actually alternate settings, and since they are not "Generic" I don't even feel any support is warranted...Just my opinion.
Another thought on the major power brokers of Greyhawk.
Consider how World War I got started. Forgive me if I'm a little rusty on exact details.
Serbian nationals assassinated the Emperor of Austria Hungary. A chain reaction brought about by Germany and other countries' numerous mutual defense pacts meant that within a short time thereafter Germany was at war with dang near half the world. If the real heavy hitters in Greyhawk started choosing sides and operating overtly, a similar situation could occur, embroiling the whole of Greyhawk in a mystical and/or deitical and/or multidimensional conflagration the scope of which would make the Age of Worms look like a crop infestation by boll weevils.
As such, all the deities and all the Tensers, Iuz's, Demogorgons, Zagygs, and Mordenkainens are content to sit this one out, because noone wants to be the first one on the dance floor. Let the detante stand. Let the plebeians take care of the pest control.
Which is essentially what Twice Born said above....
So why is Demogorgon doing his thing now? Just as Hitler was emboldened by the League of Nations' utter lack of concern for Mussolini's marching into Ethiopia, so Demogorgon is impressed that Kyuss pulled all the crap he pulled and NOT ONE DEITY LIFTED A FINGER TO INTERCEDE. Maybe a heal spell here, a resurrection there, but no direct involvement. A bunch of scraggly player characters had to do the job on Kyuss. Demogorgon's too tough and too clever and too arrogant for those pleebs, or so he thinks. And the metaphysical heirarchy will just sit back twiddling its collective thumbs while Demogorgon turns all the sentients on Oerth into slavering maniacs.
Good points, Heathansson.
A few other points to add to my list...
1) Why Tenser is acting like nothing more than the party "librarian":
Well, consider this. The guy must be getting on in years (I'm thinking he must be at least in his mid-sixties and quite possibly in his 70s, if not older. Even magic will not preserve him forever, unless he becomes a lich (which seems doubtful). So I view Tenser kind of like a "Yoda figure" in Greyhawk. Yes, he is wise, good, and powerful... but too old to go racing around the Flanaess fighting giants, dragons, and evil demi-gods. Did Yoda tag along with Luke at the end of "The Empire Strikes Back" to confront Vader? No... he trained Luke, gave him advice, etc., which is what Tenser is doing. He's done his time on the front lines. You should think of him as more than 21st level wizard with an arsenal of spells... think of Tenser the person, not Tenser the stat block.
2) The rest of the circle of EightL
Let's not forget that Mordenkainen and other key members of the Circle of Eight are "true neutral", and their true interests in relation to the AoW may be unclear, at best (Mordenkainen has been accused of being motivated purely by self-interest)... perhaps they (and Iuz, among others) are pulling strings from the shadows to assist the PCs (e.g., by revealing helpful clues, etc.), without overtly revealing their involvement? This would be especially logical for powerful true neutral NPCs who strive to maintain the "Balance," and don't want to be seen favouring one side over the other... which might cause potential problems at the bargaining table or attract unwanted enemies in the future!
3) Why other high level NPC heroes don't get involved:
Most of them rule kingdoms or other important institutions/organizations. Their days of riding off on quests to distant lands are over. If the apocalyptic evil comes to their doorstep, they will rally to fight against it. If it doesn't, they will wait and see. How many years did the US wait before getting involved in WWII? What had to happen before the US got involved? How many countries attempted to prevent the genocide in Rwanda? And what about Darfur today?Involvement is predicated on self-interest (in some cases, this = selfishness)and the perceived severity and immediacy of the threat. Again, the slow reaction of various good heroes and nations is compounded by the slow rate of (primarily non-magical)communication, the extent to which the various groups actually believe in the prophecy of the AoW (and the extent to which they believe it will actually affect them), and the strength of the relationship between the parties sending and receiving the call for help. Using Rwanda once again as an example... we live in an age where the internet and telephone make it possible to learn about atrocities within hours of them happening... but still, little was done to stop the catastrophe by the world powers. Did any high level NPC national leader even bother to go to Rwanda? No, not one... Why should powerful good NPCs in the Flanaess care about a series of scattered events happening in backwaters like the Bandit Kingdoms and the Amedio Jungle? You get the picture... the PCs are the only ones who are truly in the know (or know enough about the big picture to understand the severity of the AoW). (As an aside, some may not view the events in Rwanda and Darfur as the equivalent of a global apocalypse, but I don't want to get into a real world political debate here).
4) Who are the PCs, really?
Other threads have complained that the AoW takes characters from levels 1-20 within the span of 2-3 years of game time, and I agree that's ridiculous... unless there is something truly special about the characters. If ever I do run the AoW, I might toy with the idea that the PCs actually carry the essence of some ancient, long dead heroes, that the souls of the latter are being reborn in the former... and as they progress in experience, they gradually rediscover "skills and knowledge long forgotten", etc., until they are on a par in terms of abilities and other characteristics with those ancient heroes. Perhaps Tenser and Circle of Eight recogize the PCs for what they really are, and therefore let them take care of the AoW? Perhaps some missing/forgotten element of the prophecy foretold the return of these ancient, mythical heroes? This would help explain why they could progress in levels so quickly, and would explain why high level NPCs are standing aside and letting the PCs do the job...
I hope the above points provide plausible explanations as to why powerful good NPCs (and Iuz) are not doing anything (visibly, anyway) about the AoW, and why there is plenty of opportunity for PCs to leave their mark in the AoW, and in the Greyhawk campaign more generally.
Why Tenser is acting like nothing more than the party "librarian":
(...)
Also remember that he was the subject of an assassination attempt about a decade ago, and is probably still rebuilding his resources and defenses.
a) the gods of Greyhawk who do not dwell on the Prime Material plane (i.e., Oerth) are bound by a pact of non-intervention,
If this is the case, then what about Kyuss? Is he not bound to this agreement? If he can cross the line, they why can't, out of all the good (especially chaotic good) gods step across this line? Such a strict hierarchy seems to contradict the variation amongst pantheons in the multiverse. Surely a few gods could come to the aid of the world if one god can attempt to destroy it. If Dragotha and Lashonna can bring Kyuss into this world, there must be laws for bringing other gods to the world to fight him.
Also, if there are millions of Oerths and planes of existence then what difference does it really make if this one instance of Oerth is destroyed? That alone severely diminishes the importance of the player's actions.
As others have stated, Tenser has been burned repeatedly. Perhaps he is not convinced that the AoW will be as bad as the prophecies make it out to be, or that it will even happen
Again, if it is painted in this light then it isn't as climactic or exciting as a campaign world where it really is apocalypse.
there are dozens of countries, and no telephone or internet... even with magic, I'm not convinced that word necessarily travels as a fast as you might believe (my Greyhawk campaign is quite low magic),
In default core world of D&D, every town has wizards that can cast whispering wind. High level wizards can scry and teleport. By default, D&D allows high level characters to easily communicate with each other over long distances.
b) If your PCs do successfully contact other good, high level NPCs, perhaps the latter dismiss the PCs as flakes,
The evidence they have at this point should take care of this, along with Zone of Truth. The adventurers should also have a very good reputation and could have very high diplomacy ranks.
All this to say, the presence of high level NPCs does not take away from the key role of PCs in the campaign... and the fact that high level NPCs should not be taken as fool-proof safety net.
It does take away from their role. What is the advantage of having them in the first place? Why play in a world where the heroes aren't the center of the world? If the campaign is designed to have a beginning and an end, what's the point in adding epic level NPCs?
And for the record, I agree that APs should be limited to scenarios that affect the fate of nations/regions, and not the entire world, especially if one is neither interested in running a post-apocalypse campaign, or in having the world saved by powerful NPCs when the PCs fail. This definitely "cheapens" the campaign.
Agreed.
a) the gods of Greyhawk who do not dwell on the Prime Material plane (i.e., Oerth) are bound by a pact of non-intervention,If this is the case, then what about Kyuss? Is he not bound to this agreement? If he can cross the line, they why can't, out of all the good (especially chaotic good) gods step across this line? Such a strict hierarchy seems to contradict the variation amongst pantheons in the multiverse. Surely a few gods could come to the aid of the world if one god can attempt to destroy it. If Dragotha and Lashonna can bring Kyuss into this world, there must be laws for bringing other gods to the world to fight him.
Also, if there are millions of Oerths and planes of existence then what difference does it really make if this one instance of Oerth is destroyed? That alone severely diminishes the importance of the player's actions.
As others have stated, Tenser has been burned repeatedly. Perhaps he is not convinced that the AoW will be as bad as the prophecies make it out to be, or that it will even happenAgain, if it is painted in this light then it isn't as climactic or exciting as a campaign world where it really is apocalypse.
there are dozens of countries, and no telephone or internet... even with magic, I'm not convinced that word necessarily travels as a fast as you might believe (my Greyhawk campaign is quite low magic),In default core world of D&D, every town has wizards that can cast whispering wind. High level wizards can scry and teleport. By default, D&D allows high level characters to easily communicate with each other over long distances.
b) If your PCs do successfully contact other good, high level NPCs, perhaps the latter dismiss the PCs as flakes,The evidence they have at this point should take care of this, along with Zone of Truth. The adventurers should also have a very good reputation and could have very high diplomacy ranks....
Hi Takasi. No, I don't believe that Kyuss is bound by the Pact of Non-Intervention because his home plane is Oerth/the Prime Material (I could be mistaken here, I'm at work and don't have my AoW stuff handy), as it is for Iuz (and Vecna). In the past, St. Cuthbert has occasionally come to Oerth to confront Iuz (see the Temple of Elemental Evil), but he apparently was put back in his place after that... St. Cuthbert was nowhere to be seen during the Greyhawk Wars and their aftermath, which saw armies of fiends arise in the lands of Iuz.
As for the millions of Oerths... remember that this is not stated anyhwere in canon, it's my own personal hypothesis (but one that I borrowed from others). But does that lessen the importance of the player's quest? Think about it... You could very well be living on one of a million alternate Earths, without being aware that other alternate Earths exist... to the people who live on a particular world, that world is all they have, it's all they know... If our Earth faced the apocalypse, would you not do what is necessary to save it (if only for the sake of your loved ones)? Who cares about the other millions of Earths, you're living on this one! Same goes for the PCs in an AoW campaign... they're trying to save their own world! They might not even be aware of the other, hypothetical ones. Try moving away from meta-gaming knowledge...
As for Tenser not viewing the AoW as the apocalypse... because Tenser may not see it as so, does not mean that this is true... Perhaps the real drama is that the PCs are the only ones who take the severity of the AoW seriously (and rightly so)... And if you're telling me that your characters hang on the word of Tenser as the word of God, well that's your group's problem... Tenser is a wise and knowledgeable guy, but as a mortal with his own experiences, he's also prone to making errors. He doesn't know everything.
As for magic and communications in Core D&D... can all wizards teleport without error to places they have never been? Must they all have teleport or scry in their spellbooks? That notwithstanding, you're right, the high level of magic present in Core D&D is something I consider a flaw (and I have modified it accordingly in my Greyhawk campaign -- magic and high level magic-users are quite rare IMC). And while high level wizards can scry and teleport in Core D&D... aside from the Circle of Eight and a few other notables... how many high level wizards/sorcerers (14+) do you see in most Greyhawk scenarios? Do the conversion notes solve this problem in Eberron or Forgotten Realms (that's an honest question)? While Paizo has frequently based their adventures in Greyhawk (and I'm grateful for that effort to keep the setting alive), it should be kept in mind that most Greyhawk "purists" (a debatable term, I concede) think there is a difference between "Greyhawk" (as articulated in 1st and 2nd ed products), and "Core Greyhawk," especially where the availability of magic and high level NPCs are concerned...
And yes, I agree, high level PCs might succeed in convincing high level NPCs to lend their support to their quest... but again, this might require side treks, the time invested in diplomatic negotations with NPCs who are busy ruling their kingdoms, etc. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a successful DC 50 Diplomacy Check means the NPC will drop everything RIGHT NOW and join the PCs. Perhaps they will lend them magic, perhaps they will send an elite squad to assist the PCs, etc... but what are the odds that they would leave their kingdom or other roles and responsibilities to fight a demi-god on the frontline? I have yet to see George W. on the front line, weapon in hand, searching for Osama in Afghanistan, or fighting insurgents in Irak. Most of these high level NPCs now carry immense responsibilities to their kingdom/church/what have you, and most are likely getting on in years (like Tenser).
And that's just the way I see it. While I have no interest in Eberron or FR, I can appreciate that like Greyhawk or any other campaign setting, they have their own interesting aspects. You are free to choose whatever setting you want to play in, and I respect that choice. I also think the questions you ask about Greyhawk are justified. But I also think that with a little bit more research, you can make up your own answers to the puzzle and make it work... Greyhawk fans do it all the time, it's one thing we enjoy about the setting... it's almost an academic challenge!
Cheers,
-- TwiceBorn
It does take away from their role. What is the advantage of having them in the first place? Why play in a world where the heroes aren't the center of the world? If the campaign is designed to have a beginning and an end, what's the point in adding epic level NPCs?
All this to say, the presence of high level NPCs does not take away from the key role of PCs in the campaign... and the fact that high level NPCs should not be taken as fool-proof safety net.
(Note: this post has been edited several times...)
I both agree and disagree.
The PCs are the new, up and coming heroes of the world. The high level NPCs are nearly retirement age old timers, many won't be around for much longer, and they're too old to do battle on the frontlines. They're busy running their kingdoms/churches, etc. (again: do you see George W. on the frontline in Irak or Afghanistan? Did Churchill or Eisenhower lead their men on the battlefield during WWII?). Maybe there are other AoW related incidents happening within their own borders that they must take care of. Maybe they're preparing the defences of their kingdoms against the eventual coming of Kyuss and his minions, while the PCs tackle the threat head on.
The PCs ARE the heroes of a new day, and one day they may rule kingdoms, etc., and let other heroic PCs take their place on the frontline against evil. Again, think of NPCs as more than walking alignments and stat blocks--they are people, and people are imperfect! The high level NPCs were instrumental in shaping the world when the PCs were still in their diapers (that's why they are there), but their time in the spotlight is nearing its end, and the PCs are ready to take the torch from them. You might be interested to know that during 1st and 2nd ed., the average member of the Circle of Eight was between levels 16 and 18. Two edition changes and 30 years later (20 or so years in game time), some are in the low to mid-20s. That seems reasonable, doesn't it? Would it make sense for the PCs to become the world's very first epic level characters??? Does it make sense that high level NPCs only appear in Eberron as the PCs start reaching high levels (I don't think so, but perhaps you have a creative answer that does not rely on meta-gaming knowledge for that one)?
Another thing... do PCs know what "level" an NPC is? "Level" really should be a meaningless term from a PC point of view, it's a meta-gaming tool to track the advancement of characters, not something that the characters should be able to speak casually about. "Hey, Tenser, we heard you cracked level 27 last week... congrats!" I don't think so. PCs may have heard of an NPCs reputation and accomplishments, but really should not know how powerful they are in terms of game mechanics. And if you don't like having NPCs of that power level in your games, guess what? You can always scale them down. A good DM is always responsible for adapting and modifying published material to fit the needs of his/her campaign, rather than to adhere blindly to what is written. Think of the AoW (and any campaign setting, really) as a grand idea for you to play with as you see fit.
Where I agree: epic level NPCs should be kept at a minimum in a campaign. Going one step further, I doubt that my players will ever want to play epic-level campaigns, because the power level seems so ridiculous. We're into the story, the role playing, and the character development... not the nuclear arsenal and universe altering quests.
True. But until the absolute very end, there is no reason for these other epic level people to drop what they are doing to stop something that might maybe happen. After all, a high-level group of adventurers (the PCs) is already taking care of it, right?This begs the question: what if the adventurers ask for help? It's understandable if the PCs say "we got it covered", but if they want an audience to persuade these high level heroes, what logic would they use to reject the offer?
I think it's a pretty simple matter for Tenser to say "I actually have these three other things going on, all of which require my attention. I could certainly come help you, but doing so means that something else may become a world-threatening event. Even though you're asking for help, you guys seem to have it under your control so my answer is "No."
In Greyhawk, there are only a handful of epic-level good guys. There are lots of high-level baddies (Iuz, Turney, Tharizdun, Rary, Iggwilv, etc.) for them to monitor and worry about. Bear in mind that near the end, the PCs have a few artifacts and have destroyed Dragotha's phylactery. They seem to be winning, so why should the others worry about this yet? The PCs are high level, and they are handling it.This diminishes the party's accomplishments though. The PCs are simply "handling" what others could do but choose not to. If it's not important enough for the other NPCs to get involved then is the fate of the world really at stake?
I don't think it diminishes the role of the PCs at all. First of all, there's no guarantee that the aid of the other high-level guys will have any appreciable effect on the outcome. After all, the PCs are extremely powerful at this point. Second, by handling the threat the PCs allow the NPCs to focus on other, potentially world-threatening events. Without the PCs, the world is doomed, either by way of the Age of Worms or by way of something else that is now free due to the oversight of the high-level NPCs who had to handle Kyuss because the PCs aren't around. Saving the world = saving the world, there's no sense of "my saving the world is better than your saving the world."
The way I see it, after the PCs kill Kyuss, Tenser and others will be extremely grateful. "Thank the gods that you were able to handle Kyuss. Without you, we were all doomed, because there's no way we could handle Kyuss in addition to all of the other things we're trying to deal with. By the way, if another world-threatening event comes up, you're on your own again. We'll be rooting for you, though!"
Hi Takasi. No, I don't believe that Kyuss is bound by the Pact of Non-Intervention because his home plane is Oerth/the Prime Material (I could be mistaken here, I'm at work and don't have my AoW stuff handy), as it is for Iuz (and Vecna). In the past, St. Cuthbert has occasionally come to Oerth to confront Iuz (see the Temple of Elemental Evil), but he apparently was put back in his place after that... St. Cuthbert was nowhere to be seen during the Greyhawk Wars and their aftermath, which saw armies of fiends arise in the lands of Iuz.
Again, this fact is not being addressed. If the conflict does not warrant intervention or even an all out war of the gods then is it really the end of the world as the campaign suggests?
In any where where there is past precedent for divine intervention and deus ex machina or something that prevents mass destruction and a rapid transformation of the world then it's much more difficult to center a campaign around the premise of a small band of heroes saving the world from utter chaos. Can you agree that it's easier to do this when there has never been a precedent of gods walking the earth and intervening? You can say that gods do not intervene very often in Greyhawk, but can you agree that the more influence the gods have over preventing apocalypse, the harder it is to do a 1-20 lvl campaign to "save the entire planet"?
As for the millions of Oerths... remember that this is not stated anyhwere in canon, it's my own personal hypothesis (but one that I borrowed from others).
It seems like a necessity to explain why the gods wouldn't intervene. If Oerth is the primary source for their power (worshippers) then they would have a vested interest in it. If the gods have no interest in the world, and the players eventually wish to become gods or pattern their behavior after the gods, then why should the PCs care? When the incarnate beings of goodness and mercy do nothing to save millions of innocents, is it really that "good" to save them at all?
But does that lessen the importance of the player's quest?
Yes. If there was only one world then it's much more important to save it then if there are a million of them. The journey in Lord of the Rings would not have been as epic if Frodo and Samwise could just plane shift to another shire if Sauron destroyed Middle Earth.
Think about it... You could very well be living on one of a million alternate Earths, without being aware that other alternate Earths exist... to the people who live on a particular world, that world is all they have, it's all they know...
But we live in a world where we can't meet the gods or plane shift to another world. In D&D you can define whether these things exist or not and the characters can KNOW if these things exist or not. Why allow them to exist in the first place? How does it benefit this adventure path?
If our Earth faced the apocalypse, would you not do what is necessary to save it (if only for the sake of your loved ones)? Who cares about the other millions of Earths, you're living on this one!
If I knew I could travel to other worlds then there is an element of escape. This decreases the amount of tension and importance in the story.
Same goes for the PCs in an AoW campaign... they're trying to save their own world! They might not even be aware of the other, hypothetical ones. Try moving away from meta-gaming knowledge...
It isn't meta-game, it's the way the world works as defined in the campaign. They will also have doubts for why the gods would abandon them. If the campaign setting actually has multiple worlds then there's no reason why the players couldn't learn about this through planar knowledge checks.
Perhaps the real drama is that the PCs are the only ones who take the severity of the AoW seriously (and rightly so)...
Now you're rewriting the campaign to fit the campaign world. Which is fine, but by default it would be easier to use the campaign as written in a world where the real drama doesn't need to be a super secret that only the players (hopefully) believe.
how many high level wizards/sorcerers (14+) do you see in most Greyhawk scenarios?
According to the core rulebooks, the guidelines for standard D&D demographics includes wizards that can scry and teleport in every large city and metropolis (and in many small cities). Basically, every population of 15K people should have one person that can do this. A metropolis will have many.
Do the conversion notes solve this problem in Eberron or Forgotten Realms (that's an honest question)?
Actually, according to the rules of Eberron high level wizards are actually more rare. There are adjusted tables that make high level wizards harder to find than in Greyhawk. It is actually much easier to create a network of high level communication in Greyhawk than it is in Eberron. I'm not sure about Forgotten Realms though.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that a successful DC 50 Diplomacy Check means the NPC will drop everything RIGHT NOW and join the PCs.
If the matter isn't as important for these NPCs then why it is important to the PCs?
Perhaps they will lend them magic, perhaps they will send an elite squad to assist the PCs, etc... but what are the odds that they would leave their kingdom or other roles and responsibilities to fight a demi-god on the frontline?
They would devote resources to it at the very least. And not all high level NPCs are leaders with responsibilities. Many of them, including Tenser, have the freedom to explore and fight evil, especially when that evil is supposed to supercede the more trivial matters of leadership.
I think it's a pretty simple matter for Tenser to say "I actually have these three other things going on, all of which require my attention. I could certainly come help you, but doing so means that something else may become a world-threatening event. Even though you're asking for help, you guys seem to have it under your control so my answer is "No."
I question the benefit of having a high level NPC patronizing the characters by saying he has "three other things" to do and can't be bothered with this little worm problem.
It isn't like you have to do this. You can have a backdrop where these other high level NPCs, whether it's Tenser, the Circle of Eight, Elminster, Drizz't, etc, simply don't exist. Their presence adds nothing to the plot of the Age of Worms except to split the spotlight.
First of all, there's no guarantee that the aid of the other high-level guys will have any appreciable effect on the outcome. After all, the PCs are extremely powerful at this point.
By the stats it definately will. More epic level characters will help in the final battle.
Second, by handling the threat the PCs allow the NPCs to focus on other, potentially world-threatening events.
Exactly. "Other, potentially world-threatening events." Preventing the Age of Worms is now just another day in the Realms or Oerth.
Considering Iuz didn't have a very tight grip on Redhand to begin with, I doubt he'd be extremely alarmed if the PCs took over. He might have his Bandit Lands proxy (Null? Vayne?) initially send forces to test the defenses of the realm to see if Alhaster, still reeling from the whole AoW business, was an easy target. Should it prove not to be, Iuz would still have his BL proxy continually engage in piracy, border skirmishes, & the like, but it's doubtful full-scale warfare would break out (at least after the initial "test" attack).
However, should the new rulers of Alhaster turn out to be firmly on the side of good & seek to ally with or even join other good nations, then Iuz would view this as a serious problem, & do whatever it takes.
A likely scenario I envision is Redhand allying with, & perhaps even rejoining the Shield Lands, then both entities, perhaps with more aid from Furyondy, Veluna, &/or Urnst, engaged in a great push to make the Shields Lands whole once again. Redhand could be ground zero for a second Greyhawk Wars.
Thanks for the on topic response Rob! I can't believe the amount of threadjacking that has happened in less than a day. Trying to shame the offender didn't work, so here is a direct plea: Please stop threadjacking. Please stop trying to belittle things that some people enjoy in their D&D experience. Please stop!
In my game there is only one committed do-gooder, a priest of St. Cuthbert. I don't know if he'll survive to become a lord of Redhand. By the same token, other characters may be replaced by do-gooders. I definitely see Iuz making a Bandit Kingdom proxy test the mettle of Redhand's new leadership.
Another idea I had for more neutral and evil inclined lords of Redhand, would be potential alliances / conflicts with the remnants of the Horned Society. Is Warduke just a sword-for-hire now? What happened to the Unnameable Heirarch? Would any other surviving Horned Society members look for revenge against Iuz and would they consider plotting with and in Redhand. Zeech was lawful evil, perhaps the new lords messed up a Horned Society ongoing plot when they deposed Zeech. Would knowledge of Horned Society activity in Redhand stir Iuz into more direct action, say sending a member of the Boneheart to deal with a problem once and for all?
A victory by the new lords could cement their hold on the country and lead to protective alliances with other nations. At least that is the kind of epilogue I'd like to see. What my players end up accomplishing could be another matter and may be more fun.
Who else has ideas for using Iuz, the Horned Society, and others in an Age of Worms epilogue?
I think it's a pretty simple matter for Tenser to say "I actually have these three other things going on, all of which require my attention. I could certainly come help you, but doing so means that something else may become a world-threatening event. Even though you're asking for help, you guys seem to have it under your control so my answer is "No."I question the benefit of having a high level NPC patronizing the characters by saying he has "three other things" to do and can't be bothered with this little worm problem.
It's not patronizing, it's reality. Do the PCs want Tenser to take on Kyuss while they move in to his shoes and take on big googly-moogly X? Probably not the best solution, as there's a lot of ramp-up to become familiar with and effective against the threats.
It isn't like you have to do this. You can have a backdrop where these other high level NPCs, whether it's Tenser, the Circle of Eight, Elminster, Drizz't, etc, simply don't exist. Their presence adds nothing to the plot of the Age of Worms except to split the spotlight.
Some people like vanilla, some like chocolate. If you want the PCs to be the only epic characters around, then make it so. Not everybody wants that or even finds it realistic.
First of all, there's no guarantee that the aid of the other high-level guys will have any appreciable effect on the outcome. After all, the PCs are extremely powerful at this point.By the stats it definately will. More epic level characters will help in the final battle.
The characters don't make judgements by the stats, they are (fictional) living, breathing people that need to make decisions based on intuition and imprecise assessments. But that's ignoring the fact that there is an opportunity cost to the involvment of any high-level NPC. If there is an X% chance of the PCs being successful alone, and an X+Y% chance of the PCs being successful with the addition of an NPC, but that NPC's involvment means that there is a Z% chance of *really bad event ABC* happening, which is the better course of action? It's not as cut-and-dried as you'd like to make it.
Second, by handling the threat the PCs allow the NPCs to focus on other, potentially world-threatening events.Exactly. "Other, potentially world-threatening events." Preventing the Age of Worms is now just another day in the Realms or Oerth.
Not at all, and I think you are deliberately missing the point. New threats to existence don't come along every day, but it happens (otherwise we wouldn't have campaigns like this.) Every time a threat to existence appears, it means new heroes have to step up to the plate. If they don't, the world is doomed. That's pretty epic to me. If you don't think so, well, we agree to disagree.
Thanks for the on topic response Rob! I can't believe the amount of threadjacking that has happened in less than a day. Trying to shame the offender didn't work, so here is a direct plea: Please stop threadjacking. Please stop trying to belittle things that some people enjoy in their D&D experience. Please stop!
As one who has contributed to the thread-jack: "Sorry!" After reading 30+ posts on a different subject, I kind of forgot what the original post was about. I'll now cease and desist.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thanks for the on topic response Rob! I can't believe the amount of threadjacking that has happened in less than a day. Trying to shame the offender didn't work, so here is a direct plea: Please stop threadjacking. Please stop trying to belittle things that some people enjoy in their D&D experience. Please stop!As one who has contributed to the thread-jack: "Sorry!" After reading 30+ posts on a different subject, I kind of forgot what the original post was about. I'll now cease and desist.
Takasi's posts are like messageboard scabs. You can't help but pick at them from time to time.
Plus, after going a couple rounds with him, you get all the fun of a hangover without any of the tedious drinking and having fun part.
And finally, the number one reason why high-level NPCs/gods/warforged dinosaurs/whatever generally don't end up assisting the NPCs much, in AoW or any other campaign:
It's a game. Why bother taking on Kyuss if the cosmic JLA is just gonna show up and handle everything? The point is, you guys are the only ones who are handling this problem; screw it up, and you're responsible for the death of the world, whatever world it may be. If that wasn't so, any rational PC would see what was going on at 5th level and write a letter to Tenser or Pelor or whoever and say "Looks like the Age of Worms has started. Please kill everything with your crazy voodoo magics." And then kick back at home with an ice-cold potion of cat's grace. It makes a campaign setting kinda boring if there are so many high-level people in it that the place is never really in danger.
So, Iuz.
Thanks for the on topic response Rob! I can't believe the amount of threadjacking that has happened in less than a day. Trying to shame the offender didn't work, so here is a direct plea: Please stop threadjacking. Please stop trying to belittle things that some people enjoy in their D&D experience. Please stop!As one who has contributed to the thread-jack: "Sorry!" After reading 30+ posts on a different subject, I kind of forgot what the original post was about. I'll now cease and desist.
I was halfway through another reply to Takasi when my computer froze and I lost what I had written... and that's probably a good thing, given that I too seem to inadvertently have become guilty of thread-jacking. My apologies to the original poster and all others on this thread. I guess the tangents, while IMO relevant, did take us quite far from the original focus on Iuz... Though I have rebuttals to every point in Takasi's latest post, I'll just end things here...
Occupying Epic level good guys is ridiculously easy.
First, they are cleaning up the mess from the last "Age of Worms" level event where guys like the PC's failed. Didn't hear about that one? Good...you don't want to know.
Second, the guys who DID succeed at the last AOW level event are still cleaning up the mess. You know how many demodands got free of Carceri and the Abyss? We're still chasing them down!
Third, them Maure Castle bastards are a real PITA to track down, and it takes a LOT of time and resources.
Fourth, Tenser wants to help. Really. And all of his enemies want him to help, too. Really. And just as soon as he leads the charge and the great Evil is vanquished, they are going to stomp his depleted resources ass into the ground with a cr30 ambush.
And Tenser knows this.
The way I scripted it out in my Eberron conversion, Tenser is THE highest level human mage in the setting...except nobody really knows that, they just know he's competent. Probably better then anyone in the Arcane Congress or the Twelve, and he's got Good Outsiders taking care of his home. They thought he was dead...he came back.
Why doesn't he lead the charge? Because he's the first Cataclysm Mage on Eberron to hit 10th level in the class. The dragons on Argonnesson, as soon as they find out, are going to want him dead.
Imagine that. Some 2000 year old Great Wyrms with character levels who usually spend their time out thinking immortal fiends want you dead. Seriously squished. Post haste.
And they might be the GOOD guys!
Realize that the PC's are not Players. Kyuss isn't even a Player...he's trying to become one by taking advantage of the AoW. Vecna can trip him up simply by guiding the possessor of his Major Artifact into revealing the lore of the Storm Brotherhood to all and sundry, the dumb twit thinking he ALONE is going to have possession of all those secrets! You thought that was coincdence? What about when you toss the damn thing at Kyuss and Vecna displays his displeasure?
What about if you stick a major artifact of law into Kyuss' spleen? Did you think it coincdence that fell into your hands, too?
Iuz has probably been harvesting Kyuss petitioners heading into the Rift for years.
All of these Players have all of their eyes on the other players. They are playing chess on a huge level. Getting personally involved is opening yourself up for an attack by foes who CAN destroy you, whereas what Kyuss is trying to bring about MIGHT come to pass. If you can have pawns and no-names like the PC's do all the work, you stay nice and safe and the game continues.
Will the PC's become players? Well, Kyuss is taking advantage of a huge pre-ordained event to try and gain power...he's obviously not the first one trying to do this. If he succeeds, he goes from Pawn to Player. If the PC's beat him, they MIGHT go from Pawn to Player. Congrats, they saved the world!!! Now, they are in truly Epic territory, where EVERY fight they get into might be saving the world (shades of Superman!).
It doesn't make their first fight any more grand. But as they make the move from Pawn to Player, and start molding forces instead of responding to them, they, too, aren't going to be messing around with every single crisis, but they don't have the time, and because rivals and enemies might be manufacturing them JUST for the purpose of getting them killed! Imagine that...some god might arrange to destroy the entire planet JUST to get rid of the PC's! And if the PC's act directly to save the world, WHAM!
TIme to trot in the pawns and let THEM save the world, giving them helpful advice, tweaking your nose at your foes, blocking any overt moves, and raising the next generation of Pawns into Players.
Tenser is a Player. The Circle is a Player. Tenser getting directly involved, he's learned very painfully, = dead Tenser. The next time, maybe Perma-dead. All the good guys are probably boxed in by all the bad guys...the bad guys can shrug and leave the planet behind, or adapt to the situation. They really want to push the things so the good guys jump in and valiantly are forced to sacrifice themselves to stop Kyuss. Unlike them, the Good Guys can't just sit back and do nothing...they HAVE to respond.
And their best response is the PC's.
In my Age of Worms tribute stories, Tenser IS involved, and displays his heroism in the final moment of the fall of Kyuss, by summoning the Silver Flame to consume the divine essence of the defeated Kyuss (the Spire). This essentially reveals to the Dragons of Argonnessen that there is a level 10 Cataclysm mage out there, and puts him under a death sentence...none of the other characters realize that, really.
But he does this because the power represented by Kyuss might be enough to allow the couatls to finally start incarnating again on the Prime, or at the very least further strengthen the Silver Flame to bind the Rajahs more tightly. He has his eye on the grander scheme and goals, and makes the sacrifice.
His days are now numbered. And he did only ONE little thing. With major involvement, he'd have likely died much sooner.
The CHamber and the Lords of Dust are off camera, jockeying to turn this event of the Prophecy to their advantage, move and countermove. Extraplanar outsiders are mucking up things.
And into this strides the PC's, free radicals who aren't tied to the game, and can change everything.
Now, please excuse yon Epic heroes. They've got hundreds of Broodfiends to clean up, there's a shadow city manifesting in the Mournlands that's ready to swallow the world, some idiot summoned a Demon Tree a few years back and left some seeds behind, a 'professor' at Morgrave translated a Great Seal and a Daelkyr is bursting free of Khyber, and you're telling me WHAT about Demogorgon so soon after he got his head handed to him when mucking about in that Bastion of Broken Souls business a few years back?
Can't you see we're busy??????? Pack the cold weather gear...an Eternal Winter is brewing up north from those damn druidic kids' mucking about, and we've got to solve that...no, no, you don't need to know the details...and someone please tell me that they don't have the resources to unleash that thing in the lake up north in Karrnath, and Host help me, the Last War better not start up again because I'm getting a headache just thinking about all this crap I have to do, because no one else can.
===Aelryinth
Occupying Epic level good guys is ridiculously easy.
I agree that it's ridiculous.
In order to "easily explain" why all of the epic characters are busy doing their own thing, you have to assume that there are dozens if not hundreds of other super catastrophes occuring in the rest of the world that demand their attention.
All of the Eberron events you described are not necessary, but in some other worlds they are. In Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, these "other events" have to occur. In Eberron they do not need to pass. Why? Because in Eberron there's only one set of epic level heroes: the PCs. Everything that's epic or high level in Eberron is either a trapped monster, on another plane with no interest at all in Eberron, or bound to the religion of "the Prophecy" and unable to take action (like the gold wyrm Tenser). There are no champions except for the PCs.
In Eberron (and homebrews with no epic characters and no divine intervention) the Age of Worms is center stage. The release of a rajah is the most important epic event to happen in hundreds of thousands of years. You cannot say the same in other settings where other NPCs are dealing with or have dealt with events just like this one time and again.
Has anyone considered the reason that the PCs are handling the AOW is that they were meant to? The Order of Storms seems to think so. They were descended from the Wind Dukes and seem to be carrying their blessing.
Maybe the PCs are the ones handling it because no one else can?
Or rather, the PCs are the ones supposed to handle it and others will fail?
The, "Fated Heroes" plot device, if you will.
Oh, and Ebberon sucks. I can't use anything from it. I ganked Warforged, but I was using the Golemoids from a Dragon article long before they showed up.
Warforged = Roxors
Ebberon = Meh.
|
|
Eberron has it's maxxed characters. They are much fewer but they have them.
Why didn't the high lvl characters from GH or FR involve themselves. Because they were out at the pub and Mordenkainen stole Elminster's pants and was hiding them through dimensions. Afterwards they all went to Ed Greenwood for an interview.
More serious though because the adventure path focuses around the PLAYERS. You can have high lvl chars, but adventuring is about PLAYER CHARACTERS saving worlds. If all the high lvl pc's where there you could just as well make it a solo adventure. Take the magazine, take your whatever campaign setting, read through the descriptions, decide who wins, read the next. Now you're all done.
Good God, I'm going to make an adventure path where the players have to be bakers and the whole culmination comes down to them baking a pastry for John at the end of the street who is going to eat it him itself. They will not leave their house so that they do not meet anyone so their will be as little campaign favoring as possible.
I hope paizo makes postal messengers out of the pc for the next adventure and I would like to see Takasi's adventures where he covers ALL bases.
This thread delivers, ftw!
Let's get back on topic now please.
If the PCs can reach level 20 (through this AP)in Eberron, why wouldn't there be 20th level NPC's? And if there are, don't you have the same problem as in Greyhawk or FR?
I'm not going to try and explain why Tenser/Deities/Good NPCs don't get involved because there really isn't an answer that will make complete sense. Face it, this is a game, not reality. If you want realism you will have to come up with a lot of extra backstory to explain how the powers of the world react to the AoW, and I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be airtight. And you will find problems no matter what campaign setting it is in, Eberron included. For the record, I don't like or dislike Eberron.
The purpose of the game is to have fun. Is it more realistic to have the PCs aided by the entire Circle of Eight? Sure. Will the players enjoy being overshadowed by the Circle. NO.
However, if you want, you can always have Tenser and others join in on the final battle with Kyuss. Or you can make the Age of Worms something other than complete world destruction. Perhaps it just makes the world a significantly worse place to live (this is what I will likely do).
...Exactly. "Other, potentially world-threatening events." Preventing the Age of Worms is now just another day in the Realms or Oerth.
Wow. Given the sheer volume of your posts*, and the detailed rebuttals you have provided over and over, you must be right.
I give up -- clearly all of Oerth's plot devices are flawed, and my fondness for GH is wrong. Same for those misguided fools that play in FR. And according to one post's implication, everyone who doesn't play Eberron or homebrews.
Thanks,
Jack
*16 by my count, over 20% of the posts to date. Your first was #3 on the thread, and was a sarcastic, thinly-veiled jab at the GH version of AoW. Your second was #6, a brilliantly-executed threadjacking.
|
|
Hmmm, I think Takasi's question mark priveliges should be with held :) Whilst an enquiring mind is a good thing constantly questioning everything just seems obstreperous to me.
However several points:
1) The Greyhawk gods are worshipped elsewhere in some cases, even from a Greyhawk perspective. For example Mayaheine was a paladin of Pelor from a different prime material plane that was risen to demi-godhood and brought to Greyhawk and fought in the Shieldlands I believe. That would probably before the non-intervention treaty, not sure if she signed up :) So Greyhawk could go bang and some will most likely have worshippers on other planes.
2) There are many crazy gods in most settings, but usually they are quasi(hero) dieties or demi-gods, invariably bound to the prime or imprisoned. For example, Pelor was one of the main gods to push for Tharizdun being imprisoned extradimensionally, but when they held the non-intervention meeting Tharizdun wasn't invited and I doubt he got a copy of the agenda, the minutes and his only action point was to stay imprisoned :) As an aside if a chaotic evil god of madness said "I promise" would you believe them? Maybe if the said so on the internet but otherwise no :)
3) In regards to all the other NPCs doing nothing? Several points:
a) On one hand there is metagaming, the PCs are the hero's, most of us are voiceless no ones in real life, why do that to players in game? You may say it's unbelievable but so is having more damage capacity than an elephant when you are the size of a child. It's a heroic fantasy roleplaying game, it's not supposed to make perfect sense :)
b) On the other hand just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. For example at work I am the boss. Worked my way up, proved I could do the core job, got put in charge. All my lads can do the core job (I should hope so, I trained them). I still can though but I don't because they do it for me whilst I look after strategic concerns whilst they deal with the tactical. They are my resource, I deploy them as required to meet objectives, that's my job. Tenser is similar (except he saves countries and we look after servers and websites), he is strategically probably covering many situations that at the ground level are dealt with by tactically deployed adventurering groups.
c) General's rarely get in the trench and do the dirty work anyway, even if they can (apart from King Leonides). Tenser and the Circle of Eight are clearly a continental wide organisation attempting to maintain balance (not goodness). A semi-secret society that operates through agents. Now I know Tenser is a very powerful individual, so real world anologies break down (most commanders-in-chiefs are politicians and not as tough as a battle tank in relation to their armies soldiers), but he cannot be everywhere at once so he uses trusted agents and a measured response.
d) It's the PCs collar. For example, a murder occurs, the metropolitan police, state police, and the Fed's all have a pissing contest as to whose juridstiction it's in because they want the collar. This kind of egotism may seems strange, and the UK doesn't have similar problems with law enforcement at cross purposes with each other, but it should make the point clear. The players want to do it, they are the heroes :) It's their collar, they where their first, they found it, they are "up to speed", they have earned the right to try. Now the Co8 might say to Tenser "Are you sure about these guys" and he will probably vouch for them as they are on point, keep him in the loop, are doing good so far and they are an expendable resource athat are funding themselves off their enemies. If they die a second band of expendable heroes can be sent, in the same way the big villain sends suitable bands of just about challenging minion villains so the players have a good time and a challenge but don't get smeared. For example the AoW is all about prophecy. It could be argued that the major villains work this out and atomise the party at level 1 as the PCs will/may become a threat later. Certain countries foreign policies follow a similar vein IRL. With a magic setting this makes sense, but as a game played for fun it would be daft and would leave you sat playing with yourself, and the name for people playing with themselves is w*nkers :)
At the end of the day it's a fantasy game, and quite a lot of sensible questions end up actually being quite misguided when you consider the context of the subject matter against which they are posed.
I'm a wee bit new to the history of Greyhawk. All this great stuff on the message boards and Eric's obvious love of the setting got me curious so I bought a few pdf's off the paizo web site. After reading just the smallest bit of Oerth's History it's obvious that Iuz would be a wee bit jealous about another god (i.e. Kyuss and his armies) on the scene. This got me thinking, wouldn't Iuz be a potential ally to the PC's. I mean, Kyuss seems bad and all; but, there is another bad god that may not want the competion.
Thoughts?
All Takasi's posts, summarised and editied for trollishness:
I'm sorry, but I don't have anything useful to say about your question, for which I apologise in advance.
However, your mention of Iuz has got me thinking about high-level NPCs in D&D. Personally, I prefer to play in a setting without high-level NPCs, as this means the PCs are the ones on whom everything depends. What does everyone else think?
Please don't reply here, though - I'll start a new thread about this topic.
Callum:
Forgive me, but you were very generous. Let me give my take. It may be a little rude or mean-spirited, but no less than trying so hard to tell so many that they are wrong.
All Takasi's posts, summarised, with no editing for trollishness (which would be completely out of character):
I don't have anything useful to say about your question, but since you aren't hostile to this Greyhawk-related topic, you don't deserve any consideration.
Your mention of Iuz has got me thinking about high-level NPCs in non-Eberron settings. They are all stupid. If you disagree, I will dissect your stupidity in excruciating thoroughness, point by point, as often as it takes. Personally, I prefer to play in Eberron and everything else is stupid. For the duration of this thread I will use the concept of high-level NPCs as a smoke screen for my opinion.
I don't care what anyone else thinks. If you think the sky is blue, I will show you are wrong.
I think you guys are missing the point! By the time they figure out what is really going on, and how dangerous Kyuss' return could be the PCs are already 16th level, Tenser is only 21st level, and so isn't that much stronger than the PCs, also after they complete Storm Island the PCs are almost as powerfull as Tenser, and things move very quickly from there, the pcs zip from 17th to 21st level and up in weeks of game time.
At lower level's the PCs are just one of the 30 adventuring groups that come to Tenser with a 'the world is going to be destroyed type of plot', most of which are stopped or false alarms. Why after say Gathering of Winds would Tenser immediately drop everything and focus on this one potential threat. Maybe there are multiple ways that the Kyuss prophecies can be fulfilled and he has to manage 5 groups of characters like the PCs not knowing which one is on the 'real' trail of Kyuss.
Although Knowing Tenser he is probably managing 30 groups like the PCs, and holding off Iuz at the same time.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
I also don't see how the whole cosmology of Greyhawk fits into AoW. I still haven't read a reasonable explanation for why the gods wouldn't do something to prevent these events from unfolding.
Most of the gods of the World of Greyhawk adhere to a pact that prevents them from openly manipulating events on Oerth. This is why so many of them have demigod "agents" who do not strictly subscribe to the agreement.
There are a small handful of exceptions, but in general they do not interfere.
--Erik
Great analysis and comparisons, Craig, I completely agree... (Unfortunately, we're still off the "Iuz topic")... ;-)
-- TB
OK, I would like to apologize in advance for my off-topic post, but Trollkasi got me thinking of a proverb from an unknown souce:
"A zealot is someone who won't change their opinion, but won't change the subject."
As for the original question, I'm currently reading Iuz the Evil, and will post something on-topic when I can answer your question.
|
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
If the conflict does not warrant intervention or even an all out war of the gods then is it really the end of the world as the campaign suggests?
The campaign does not explicitly state that the Age of Worms is the "End of the World." If it were, wouldn't it be called the "Day of Worms," or perhaps the "Minute of Worms"?
The Age of Worms is an _era_ of death, destruction, and writhing decay. That's certainly not good, but it's also not the planet popping like a zit.
Even the Ebon Triad believes that the coming of Kyuss is merely a precursor to the appearance of their (fake) Overgod, so not even the looniest of the loons believes that the world ends when Kyuss appears.
Oerth already hosts one insane demigod, Iuz, and he has existed for more than a century without the planet imploding. Sure, lots and lots of people have died because of him, but he isn't in danger of blotting out all life in the universe, and neither is Kyuss.
--Erik
blotting out the universe is what Tharizdun is for!
I've never thought of Iuz as insane. Malevolent and cruel, yes, but insane?
IMC, the Greyhawk Wars never happened. It's too Lord of the Rings for me. Perhaps Iuz is waiting on the sidelines, watching the PCs.
Occupying Epic level good guys is ridiculously easy.I agree that it's ridiculous.
In order to "easily explain" why all of the epic characters are busy doing their own thing, you have to assume that there are dozens if not hundreds of other super catastrophes occuring in the rest of the world that demand their attention.
All of the Eberron events you described are not necessary, but in some other worlds they are. In Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, these "other events" have to occur. In Eberron they do not need to pass. Why? Because in Eberron there's only one set of epic level heroes: the PCs. Everything that's epic or high level in Eberron is either a trapped monster, on another plane with no interest at all in Eberron, or bound to the religion of "the Prophecy" and unable to take action (like the gold wyrm Tenser). There are no champions except for the PCs.
In Eberron (and homebrews with no epic characters and no divine intervention) the Age of Worms is center stage. The release of a rajah is the most important epic event to happen in hundreds of thousands of years. You cannot say the same in other settings where other NPCs are dealing with or have dealt with events just like this one time and again.
ON the contrary, it's you are being very close-minded thinking that there are NO epic events occuring now, in the immediate past, or in the immediate future.
Just because they haven't been published doesn't mean they exist. But Epic-level events by rote don't involve mundane heroes, and such may never even LEARN about something Epic like that happening. Conversely, the EPic levels that exist might never bother to inform lesser mortals that such things did happen, to prevent widespread panic, and are probably half-myth themselves and aiming to become more secretive so their enemies can learn less and less about them.
The Age of Worms is a Campaign Issue. The very first mention of the Age refers to EPic level events taking place (a falling star, a demon tree, etc etc)...these obviously all occured, if not in your campaign. Shackled City is specifically noted as one of the catalysts for the Age...and is in all campaigns. Where are those Epic heroes?
Answer: they're Epic, doing Epic things your puny level 1's don't want to know about, and by the time you're level 21 they, too, are on to other Epic things.
Just because it isn't fixated in the campaign lore of the ECS doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It's your setting, make it come alive. Sheesh! The heroes of the AOW are the first wave of new heroes aborning, so were the heroes of Shackled City, and so will be the Heroes of the next AP.
As for other settings, thinking there are NOT Epic events going on all the time, beyond the purview of the level 1-20 campaign, is far more narrow-minded then assuming that Epic characters have nothing better to do then take care of all the little problems of the World, instead of leaving little nuisance events to people like the PC's.
===Aelryinth
|
I'm a big fan of Greyhawk, the Greyhawk Wars, Iuz, and high-level NPC's.
I definitely think Iuz should get more involved. Surely he knows about the pyramid being built in Alhaster through his spies. Even if the Old One suspects that Zeech is building it for Hextor, I imagine he would act against it. It would be neat if the PC's had to defend Alhaster from a bunch of fiends and a Boneheart mage sent by Iuz during Prince of Redhand. The Blessed Angels and Zeech could fight side-by-side the PC's. Iuz would be the best villain for an epic post-Age of Worms game. I love Rob Bastard's idea of the 2nd Greyhawk Wars.
The only other gods I can imagine getting involved: Nerull (Kyuss' patron), Pelor (Nerull's brother, dislikes undead), Mayaheine (she is to Pelor what Kyuss is to Nerull), and Celestian (if the Age of Worms is prophecised, wouldn't a god of fate's followers do something? Lendor or Istus can work, but I prefer Celestian because Agath is his worshipper and Celestian's Oeridian heritage is more appropriate than the Suloise or Baklunish gods). Obviously, they wouldn't get involved directly, but it would be nice to see some of their agents throughout the adventures. Wouldn't the Church of Pelor send people to check out rumours of Kyuss spawn in the Cairn Hills? Howabout meeting a nearly-dead paladin of Mayaheine in the Wormcrawl Fissure? Agath is the cleric most likely to raise PC's who use Magepoint as a base. Have him give the PC's glimpses of the future, granted to him by Celestian. According to Greyhawk: the Adventure Begins, there are two Heirarchs of the Horned Society in Greyhawk, both clerics of Nerull. Maybe they could get involved and send Warduke to kill the PC's or help Raknian escape from Greyhawk.
As far as high level NPC's are concerned, a few could certainly use more spotlight in Age of Worms. The trick is to do it without taking the spotlight away from your players. The solution: keep those NPC's busy. Guys like Mordenkainen, Otto, Jallarzi Sallavarian, and Warnes Starcoat from the Circle of Eight could get involved. Otto and Jallarzi both live in Greyhawk and could do so after events from the Champion's Belt. Warnes is from Urnst and would probably be interested in events in neighbouring Alhaster. What I would like to do is expand the pre-Age of Worms to encompass the whole Flanaess. The Circle of Eight would like to help, but they're busy fending off hordes of Kyuss spawns which are rampaging throughout Furyondy, the Great Kingdom, Keoland, etc. I imagine that most other high level NPC'S would have a similar response. When the players teleport back to Greyhawk to purchase supplies, have them run into Jallarzi, Otto, and Turin Deathstalker finishing up a fight against an overworm in the marketplace. The impending doom of an Age of Worms will really strike home once the players realise that the worms are everywhere. And it's up to them to take the fight home and win it for the good guys.
I have no problem with high-level NPC's, whether they be level 12 innkeepers or level 21 archmages. I think it's silly to assume that the PC's are the only ones who go up levels. Surely a captain of the guard who's been training for 20+ years should provide a challenge for some kids that started adventuring a few months ago and are already level 9. The best thing about 3rd edition is the way many creatures can be made more challenging simply by giving them class levels. Take a look at the orc pirates in Library of Last Resort. Back in 2nd edition where the most powerful orc gave out 650 XP's and 8th level orc pirates were impossible, it became difficult to challenge your players at higher levels. Now, thanks to the beauty of 3rd edition, you can send kobolds against your players no matter what level they are. However, if your campaign world has no high level NPC's, such as Eberron, how do you explain 8th level pirates? In any world except Greyhawk, running into pirates with more than 3 levels should raise an eyebrow. Players would correctly assume that these are some of the most powerful pirates in the world. In Greyhawk, getting your 4th level barbarian kicked out of a tavern by a 10th level commoner is just a coincidence. That, my friends, is a beautiful thing.
|
|
TwiceBorn, thanks but I think YuKyDave's point was more succinct than mine. By the time it all kicks off the PCs are more of an encounter than Tenser, or about the same EL.
Hagen, it would be excellent to have Iuz and his Boneheart covet Alhaster. Perhaps an epic level follow up for Dragon? The PCs are left in the ruins of Alhaster, have just defeated Kyuss, and then learn Iuz is planning to get himself a new port on the Nyr Dyv. Remember it should be higher level than AoW, Kyuss was weakened, Iuz isn't. Maybe Iuz's mum and Dad are in it, would be a good tie in with the Demonomicon series. Of course adding Igglwilv and Gratz would make it very Greyhawky, but there you go. Or Nerrul, as he sponsored Kyuss. Write your submissions now :)
Erik, gotta love GHs crazy evil demigods. Wastri, Tharizdun and Iuz go into a bar to talk about Kyuss...:)
As an aside a nice article for Dragon would be pact magic and interacting with Kyuss as a new vestige. Dragotha would be a good one as well.
Wow, turn your back for a week or so and WHAMO! Your thread goes crazy. I'm not sure what most of you are on about. I didn't think the mortal world (including Manzorian/Tenser) had a clue about the AoW until the PC's completed the Library of last resort. At that point everything was a little last minute to marshall any version of the Greyhawk JLA - the PC's kind'a donned the mantle. However, it seemed reasonable to me that a demigod like Iuz would take an interest at this point. After all, this is his doorstep Kyuss is playing on. Prior to confronting the big bad the PC's are offered some advice and assistance from Manzorian; I was hoping for some ideas on how this scenario might tie into Iuz more and rely on Manzorian less - just to tie Iuz's likely involvement into the story line.
Again, thoughts?
Cheers,
C.
|
|
I think Iuz is licking his wounds. He'll send some covert ops after the pc's, especially when they get their land at the end of the AP. He'll also send some agents to bully them into working for him.
I also think he's starting a fey'ri breeding program, cause that dude with the item that sent all his fiends home got him worried, and he wants some fiendish crew that can't be so easily gotten rid of.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Wow, turn your back for a week or so and WHAMO! Your thread goes crazy. I'm not sure what most of you are on about. I didn't think the mortal world (including Manzorian/Tenser) had a clue about the AoW until the PC's completed the Library of last resort. At that point everything was a little last minute to marshall any version of the Greyhawk JLA - the PC's kind'a donned the mantle. However, it seemed reasonable to me that a demigod like Iuz would take an interest at this point. After all, this is his doorstep Kyuss is playing on. Prior to confronting the big bad the PC's are offered some advice and assistance from Manzorian; I was hoping for some ideas on how this scenario might tie into Iuz more and rely on Manzorian less - just to tie Iuz's likely involvement into the story line.
Again, thoughts?
Cheers,
C.
I don't know a lot about Iuz, but maybe he could be the one mastering the ritual to stop teleportation. He has a vested interest in not seeing another evil god/demi-god wandering around his neighborhood. So instead of Manzorian saying he will set up the circle, he could tell the PC's "Oh yeah, one more complication - Iuz has already locked down the city of Alhaster. I'm going to try and figure out what he is up to. If he and Kyuss team up, things could get really ugly."
This also provides an explanation for why Manzorian isn't more involved with Kyuss - he's dealing with Iuz very directly.
I don't know a lot about Iuz, but maybe he could be the one mastering the ritual to stop teleportation. He has a vested interest in not seeing another evil god/demi-god wandering around his neighborhood. So instead of Manzorian saying he will set up the circle, he could tell the PC's "Oh yeah, one more complication - Iuz has already locked down the city of Alhaster. I'm going to try and figure out what he is up to. If he and Kyuss team up, things could get really ugly."
This also provides an explanation for why Manzorian isn't more involved with Kyuss - he's dealing with Iuz very directly.
Hey, cool idea! There is a lot to run with in this scenario. I don't know a lot about Iuz either (hence the thread) but this seems like the kind of thing a rival demigod might do to thwart a potential rival. Also, excellent rationale re: Manzorian's (and other high level NPC's that have generated so much angst on this thread) preoccupations preventing any direct assisstance to the PC's ("Great! We finally confirm that this Kyuss threat is a clear and present danger and now Iuz is getting involved - you guys keep with the Kyuss thing and we'll go check out the Iuz situation"). I wish I had thought of that (but that's why I post here - unbeatable source of creative inspiration).
Cheers,
C.
Another bunch of vaguely formed thoughts just occurred to me...
I recall being a little dissatisfied with all the knowledge checks and such the PC's are expected to make to discover the potential of some of the artefacts they possess as well as the measures they could take to weaken Kyuss before confronting him. It seemed a little counterintuitive that the PC's were doing all the primary research and investigation throughout the campaign and now Manzorian is suddenly able to dig up this advice on Kyuss. For me, it would make for a stronger, more consistent story line to have an entity like Iuz might "leak" this advice to the PC's. I'm already excited about designing the form this encounter might take - I'm leaning toward a nocturnal visit from a mysterious stranger. It’d really send a shiver down the PC’s spine to later learn who their mysterious benefactor was – maybe Kyuss taunts them with this revelation during the final battle?!. Anyway, there's some exciting potential there.
The other thing I'm working on is some brilliant final tie-in back to the Wind Dukes to achieve some sort of full circle campaign effect. I'm aware of the significance of the talisman of the sphere but I was hoping for more of a story connection not just an item connection (some juicy connection revealed by Iuz would really be the topping on the cake – OK, I’m obsessing). No brilliant ideas though (just a wish list).
Cheers,
C.
|
|
The simple answer to Takasi's main question is that there's nothing stopping the mega-NPCs from hopping on the Kyuss-Bashing lightning rail of doom except gaming conventions that have been around since the dawn of time (or at least since I started gaming waaaay back in 1978), to wit: The Adventure is written assuming that the PCs will be the ones to handle the situation.
If the PCs want the Circle of Eight, or Elminster and the Knights of Myth Drannor, or the Warforged Ultrazord with optional fusion sword to come along and help (or even if they want to whine "we're too weak! You epic guys should handle Kyuss!" I'm sure that those self-same epic super-adventurers (or magically created multiconnectional robotic constructs) will, in fact, roll out a whole keg of whoop-ass and make Kyuss do the whole thing in a beer bong.
But, that's not what D&D is about. D&D is about PLAYING the guy who gets to step up and just kick the unholy crap out of a reawakened demigod. Heck, that's why I play. And that's how I DM. If the party loses, then the big boys, whenever they get done stopping that crazy extra-terrestrial rakshasa invasion, will have to say, "Well, crap!" and try to fix the problem.
Or, we'll run a campaign called "Kyuss Ascendant!" where the PCs (new ones since it's reaaaaaly unlikely that the old ones servived their crushing defeat) have grown up in a world where the Wormgod rules, and they have to do something even more epic than these last losers to get rid of his slimey behind.
If you're going to jam your finger through all the plot holes in adventures, why bother to even read them.
They're there, true believer. trust me, they are there.
Enjoy the adventure the way it was written or change it.
Let your PCs ask for help.
Have the NPCs (gasp!) offer to help.
Whatever rattles your dice cup.
Or... assume that all the afore-mentioned mega-super-action-heroes (and questionably designed robot/construct
(power)rangers are busy saving the world from some equally nefarious plot and will be just a little late to the main event.
...or maybe they're all at Starbucks, mercilessly mocking the PCs' rather sophomoric attempts to save the world from a rather ridiculous hazing prank that the epic guys like to call "The Return of Big Wormy" and which they use on ALL the littler adventuring parties that might, just might, be reasonable additions to the epic super-adventurer club.
I mean really... it's (gasp!) just a game.
|
|
Because in Eberron there's only one set of epic level heroes: the PCs. Everything that's epic or high level in Eberron is either a trapped monster, on another plane with no interest at all in Eberron, or bound to the religion of "the Prophecy" and unable to take action (like the gold wyrm Tenser). There are no champions except for the PCs.
Eberron sounds incredibly boring.
A really big war happened, and someone locked up a bunch of demons, but there's no big heroes around now except the PCs?And you're saying the Greyhawk's premise is ludicrous?
Come on now!
|
|
Hmm, you could use Iuz as a patron for an evil party. It would obviously be mature and very BoVD, Demonomicon, and Hordes of the Abyss focused. They could start off in Diamond Lake as a loose cell of very low ranked spies that are contacted by sending from a Lesser Boneheart periodically but are mostly on their own. They use being adventurers as their cover but are basically scum :)
By the time they are contacted again they are so involved in the campiagn arc (and the loot and mayhem it lets them induldge in) they are ordered to continue investigations and have to report more frequently. You should replace Manzo/Tenser with a Boneheart. It would obviously require work to iron out inconsistencies but Iuz is not going to want the competition that a free-willed Kyuss could represent.
Iuz may want the party to try and thwart Kyuss' minions initially, then try to convince Kyuss to become a vassal of Iuz (unlikely) and if he won't agree destroy him or imprison him again (to save for later). Afterwards the party can then take over Alhaster in Iuz's name. Or betray him and keep it for themselves. Anyway, just some thoughts. Not sure how you can use him overtly in a "good" campaign. He is CE and most PCs would know that/find out and just wouldn't trust him or anything he said, he is a bad man. I blame the parents :)
As an aside an alternative evil campaign is to have Hextorian, Vecnan, and Erythnuulian orthdox PCs become involved and ally against the heretical Ebon Triad. Nothing to do with Iuz though :) My players do seem vaguely interested in this last one, possibly forming an anti-party to the PCs they currently play in SCAPHC i.e. human males all again, but Hextorian blackguard (initially LN becoming LE), Vecnan cleric/necromancer/truenecromancer (NE) and barbarian/ravager (CN becoming CE). Hmm, probably another little thought experiment that will lead nowhere :)
Hmm, you could use Iuz as a patron for an evil party...
I love that idea :)
Now I wish I could turn back time and set the campaign up that way -- my players would be great at an evil party. They can be quite fun if not played like rampaging, murderous psychotics (actually, they can be quite fun if they are played as rampaging, murderous psychotics, too -- but that gets old).
Jack
Just wanted to add that if I were going to use a campaign setting (homebrew or licensed) with epic level good NPCs and gods I would rather run a campaign where stopping the destruction of the world requires the PCs to be gods, or near gods. Since this isn't a very attractive option in 3.5, I would rather play a 1-20 lvl campaign where the climax has less to do with stopping a world apocalypse. Save a nation instead of the world. Scale back the importance. Or take the fight to another plane. Or involve all of the major players in the world, using affiliations or whatnot. In any event, as Mr. Jacobs has said, if you're going to make "generic" adventures you should avoid epic world-shaking events.
Takasi -
You forgot the dragons, who (like the Dal-Quor) can and do frequently reach epic levels. So why are the dragons not interfering, even if doing so might disturb their prophecy? I mean, after all, it's an apocalypse!
Eberron is not just better than everything else. You make me want to hate the setting, and I actually like it quite a lot.
- Ashavan