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I saw something similar mentioned in another thread, and thought I might make a good thread unto itself. A dilemma I and others have noticed is that it is hard to create a 1st to epic level campaign that does not involve saving the world, defeating some demon prince or similar such mega plot. These are fun, but can become repetitive. This of course would be easily solved with less lengthy Adventure Paths, 1st to 10th level perhaps. I though am a huge fan of the longer campaigns. Some of my favorite games were those that lasted for years. So, what I propose, and submit for consideration, is the concept of a slower paced 10 level campaign. The basic rewards would be reduced enough that each level of advancement would require two or three levels to attain.
I imagine campaigns executed in this manner to be similar to novels that I enjoy reading. The Robert Jordan novels for example. Many books have gone by and the character developement pacing is such that just now they are beginning to reach the higher levels.
With a campaign that takes just as long but ends with the characters being only 10th or 11th level, a whole slew of possible plots are openned up to us. The local evil baron or shady organization can be as much a threat to the party as Kyuss or Adimarchus were to the higher level groups. Find the secret recipe to cure the plague that threatens to kill everyone in their home town. An entire campaign that takes place in a town where the town itself might not face the risk of being destroyed, but perhaps the souls of its citizens.
Let me know what you think.
Tam
I would enjoy that--slower pace, make the adventures just as long in the page count area, but spend more time detailing settings and NPCs and provide for alternate motivations, give ideas for spinoff adventures. It would also be a rich harvest ground of ideas and concepts that a DM who wasn't going to run those adventures could loot.
Let me know what you think.
Well I agree just because of the simple fact that my gaming group is very busy. At most we get to play only once every other month or so. Sometimes it takes us 5-6 months just to get through a decent size one-shot game. Being the only single person in the group I feel a little left out and abandoned but it's not by choice for my friends, life just happens with kids and families and work and holidays and vacations. Next thing you know it's Halloween and Christmas time, and it's now themed games, "Little Fears" and "Santas Soldiers" for example. Paizo is a great company and I love the AoW A.P. but we're not all kids anymore.
**memory drifts back to long summers of playing D&D all summer**
The basic rewards would be reduced enough that each level of advancement would require two or three levels to attain.
What exactly did you mean? Giving smaller experience awards or making level requirements bigger (e.g. 2nd level - 4000 XP)?
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I originally meant for experience awards to be reduced so that gaining a level would take twice as long. Making the experience cost of each level twice the usual amount would accomplish the same thing. That way, a 1st to 10th level campaign would take just as long as a 1st to 20th level campaign, with two 1st level power adventures, and two 2nd and so on.
Tam
I like it and I don't think the rewards need to be reduced. Different players play at different paces so by implementing a method of slowing down level climbing you make some happy and upset others.
What I like is the idea that at 10-11th level, the characters can have finished the adventure path and the DM has lots of material from which to homebrew.
That said, as lots of players, like myself, have family commitments, homebrewing is time-costly, which is why a 20 level campaign is so attractive.
So what would I like? More time! But that's not going to happen until my three young kids grow up, leave home and 5th edition is out. Therefore, give me a 20 level campaign and I'll tweak it if I need to.
...and provide for alternate motivations, give ideas for spinoff adventures. It would also be a rich harvest ground of ideas and concepts that a DM who wasn't going to run those adventures could loot.
Know what would be a cool idea here? Paizo comes out with another adventure path using op's approach to slower paced adventure path and per usual, they provide the spinoff or side plot adventure in their usual sidebar note.
But here is the hitch, now the Dungeon readers submit their ideas for alternative hooks and or adventure submissions to paizo to incorperate into the adventure path series based on those side bar spinoffs or plots.
Moreover, they have a contest to submit the grand finale to a current adventure path with the top two winners being published! This leaves the DM with "hmmmm...which ending scenario do I like better?"
Just thought something like that would be really cool and I would leave it to Paizo to come up with some awsome marketing schema to incorporate such an idea.
I agree with Orcwart. I want a campaign that takes the players up to 20th level and even beyond. In fact, I wish the campaigns would have the characters end with levels as high as 25th level.
Off the subject, one of the reasons I don't like Eberron as much as the Forgotten Realms and other worlds is that it was generally built for low and mid level campaigns. If characters reach 15th level they might as well be deities because nothing could possible challenge them. As the DM of our group, I don’t have the time to create new modules so I appreciate the adventure paths and am glad that they take characters to at least 20th level. As far as saving the world, who could get bored with that?
Several people have suggested this idea in different threads. A first to tenth or twelfth path that advances players by one level per adventure instead of two would be fun--more roleplaying, cut back a little on the number and challenge of the encounters. Most of AoW has been a meatgrinder for those who are just learning the game, and if you have a new group, even with some experienced players, it takes time to build teamwork, and even longer if you have one or more new characters to introduce every session or two due to PC deaths. It's also possible this way to focus on one setting--since it's typically at the higher levels that PCs have to travel far and wide to find worthwhile challenges.
That said, with a little time (i.e. if you don't start playing the campaign the minute it comes out, but wait a few issues to get a feel for what to add), it's not hard to add some of the roleplaying richness, scale down the toughest encounters (most of the toughest ones in AoW have a tough boss and multiple mooks, so it's easy to reduce the numbers or potency of the latter to allow PCs to focus more on the boss). It's hard to complain either way, if Dungeon lives up to the standard it has set for itself with AoW, and varies the plot a little bit. Last time the ultimate enemy was a god, this time a demon prince, perhaps next time an uber-epic wizard.
And maybe it doesn't always have to be a single overarching conspiracy that begins to manifest itself in adventure #1. Dungeon could get the best of both worlds by designing a campaign that has two six adventure segments, with the hooks for the second half being presented mostly in the last two adventures of the first segment, and a suitably culminating confrontation at the end of adventure #6 that will make the campaign feel finished if that's where the group wants to end it. This way either segment can be used as a stand-alone by the DM. If dungeon published several other adventures that could be inserted as side-quests for the main path during that time (they don't have to be specifically designed as such, just add a sidebar giving the DM a couple of ideas how to adapt it), and put a sidebar in each adventure for how to scale back the experience progression for those who want a slower, richer, less deadly campaign, both sets of customers would be happy.
Just some suggestions--I know sidebars take up valuable space, and most experienced DMs can figure these things out on their own with little trouble, but part of Dungeon's raison d'etre is to not make the DM have to think too hard and to help inexperienced DMs present fun adventures. At the least, though, some adventure paths ought to be designed with more moments where a pause in the action can be easily inserted without disrupting the realism of the plot. This makes it easier to drop in urban roleplaying sessions and sidequests as well as making it possible to play a wizard or other character who needs time to study and make magic items. With AoW, the plot carries such urgency that it's hard to justify much downtime, especially after the Prince of Redhand.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm happy with the current adventure path structure. It's a lot easier to truncate the adventure paths at 10th level than it is to build out from 10th level on. Partly this is because after 10th level, the adventures are harder to prepare. I appreciate the fact that the adventure paths take care of that for me.
Besides, Dungeon has plenty of mini-adventure paths, consisting of 2 to 3 adventures at a variety of levels.
Finally, I don't think there is a lot of room for non-epic adventures past 10th level. The core rules give high level characters a lot of power and the adventure path plots allow them to exercise that power.
Not that I don't mind a non-epic campaign (those are the style I usually run), I just don't see it a 10 level adventure path as the solution to that particular problem.
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I'm on board with that. The pacing of the adventure paths just feels too fast. I'd like to see it take longer. That means making some encounters less challenging to reduce the total XP awarded. I'd love to see an average of 13.33 encounters per level. Some are weaker than the average party level, but some are higher.
That is quite a few encounters. That should be enough for 3-6 sessions of play.
As for Eberron - it works fairly well for high-level stuff. Around 15th level our group was fighting the Keeper to get back the soul of one of the PCs. Quite an adventure. You should see the pictures of that. Skeletal dragon eating the PCs with lightning striking in the background....
We started Age of Worms, but we didn't like playing it. Part of it was the DM, part of it was the adventure. One of the players, knowing the elevator with the crushed body was a trap wanted to see about disabling it. Once he was sealed inside the DM told him he was dead. He didn't get to attempt any actions, etc. It felt cheap, and it turned us off the path. A near TPK (one survivor) a couple chambers later just felt wrong. We made new characters to go back into the Whispering Cairn, but it just felt ridiculous. We had just died there.
Now, I might revisit it again (particularly after it comes out in hardback [wink wink]) but it needs modification to work in the types of games I like to be a part of and I'm an experienced and quite capable player.
I saw something similar mentioned in another thread, and thought I might make a good thread unto itself. A dilemma I and others have noticed is that it is hard to create a 1st to epic level campaign that does not involve saving the world, defeating some demon prince or similar such mega plot. These are fun, but can become repetitive. This of course would be easily solved with less lengthy Adventure Paths, 1st to 10th level perhaps. I though am a huge fan of the longer campaigns. Some of my favorite games were those that lasted for years. So, what I propose, and submit for consideration, is the concept of a slower paced 10 level campaign. The basic rewards would be reduced enough that each level of advancement would require two or three levels to attain.
I imagine campaigns executed in this manner to be similar to novels that I enjoy reading. The Robert Jordan novels for example. Many books have gone by and the character developement pacing is such that just now they are beginning to reach the higher levels.
With a campaign that takes just as long but ends with the characters being only 10th or 11th level, a whole slew of possible plots are openned up to us. The local evil baron or shady organization can be as much a threat to the party as Kyuss or Adimarchus were to the higher level groups. Find the secret recipe to cure the plague that threatens to kill everyone in their home town. An entire campaign that takes place in a town where the town itself might not face the risk of being destroyed, but perhaps the souls of its citizens.
Let me know what you think.
Tam
I couldn't agree with you more, and was about to start a thread on the same subject.
On the one hand, I deeply appreciate the work that Erik and crew have put into the mag and the adventure paths, and I tink Dungeon currently is the best it's ever been. On the down side, I must confess that I'm sick of plots involving evil cultists/outsiders who will take over or destroy the world if the PCs don't stop them.
How many times have the Flanaess faced this scenario over the past 20-25 years of game time?
1. Lolth got a foothold on Oerth and had the city of Isivin encapsulated in some black "Abyssal bubble," and if the characters failed in their quest, she would pull Oerth into the Abyss (GDQ 1-7).
2. A few years later (if that), Vecna threatens to block off the power of all of Oerth's gods in his bid to become supreme god of the world, effectively denying their followers all spellcasting ability if the party cannot stop him, and ushering in an age of darkness in the Flanaess... (WGA4).
3. The Shackled City Adventure Path... the Cagewrights and the demodands want to drag Oerth into Carceri.
4. A year or so later, cultists are on the verge of awakening the worm god, Kyuss... should the PCs fail to stop this, it will be hell on Oerth (Age of Worms AP).
5. Savage Tide AP: now Demogorgon is going to unleash this energy across the Flanaess which will transform everyone into frenzied cannibals... unless the PCs can save the day (and go from level 1 to 20 in the space of 3 game years--usually by the age of 20 for a human, if you are using the starting ages in the PHB).
I'm probably missing some here, but you get the point... the Flanaess have been on the brink of total annihilation at least 5 times in the past 20 years... which makes good competition for Dragonlance, I guess.
Has anyone played one of the campaigns where the characters failed??? I'd be interested to know how that went (I think it might be cool).
I prefer plots where if the character's fail, something significant does happen (perhaps only at the national or regional level), but the "end of the world" is not about to occur as a result of their failure. Yes, I know, it's my choice to run or not to run these campaigns, or to adapt them as I will (I'm currently preparing a heavily altered version of Vecna Lives, which, given how infrequently my group gets together, probably never will be played). But still, I would like to see a bit more originality where the stakes of a story arc are concerned.
But then again, perhaps my players and I are a minority, in the sense that we don't get care to amass mega powers, soar to high levels, and save the entire world at the end of every campaign... and we're the problem, not the AP writers.
All this to say, yes, I would welcome a level 1-10 AP with more character/setting development and adventures played between levels. I wish this question had been part of the online survey!
And maybe it doesn't always have to be a single overarching conspiracy that begins to manifest itself in adventure #1. Dungeon could get the best of both worlds by designing a campaign that has two six adventure segments, with the hooks for the second half being presented mostly in the last two adventures of the first segment, and a suitably culminating confrontation at the end of adventure #6 that will make the campaign feel finished if that's where the group wants to end it. This way either segment can be used as a stand-alone by the DM. If dungeon published several other adventures that could be inserted as side-quests for the main path during that time (they don't have to be specifically designed as such, just add a sidebar giving the DM a couple of ideas how to adapt it), and put a sidebar in each adventure for how to scale back the experience progression for those who want a slower, richer, less deadly campaign, both sets of customers would be happy.
Just some suggestions--I know sidebars take up valuable space, and most experienced DMs can figure these things out on their own with little trouble, but part of Dungeon's raison d'etre is to not make the DM have to think too hard and to help inexperienced DMs present fun adventures. At the least, though, some adventure paths ought to be designed with more moments where a pause in the action can be easily inserted without disrupting the realism of the plot. This makes it easier to drop in urban roleplaying sessions and sidequests as well as making it possible to play a wizard or other character who needs time to study and make magic items. With AoW, the plot carries such urgency that it's hard to justify much downtime, especially after the Prince of Redhand.
Great suggestions, Peruhain.
I would enjoy that--slower pace, make the adventures just as long in the page count area, but spend more time detailing settings and NPCs and provide for alternate motivations, give ideas for spinoff adventures. It would also be a rich harvest ground of ideas and concepts that a DM who wasn't going to run those adventures could loot.
Amen to that. I almost think it would be cooler to just do mini-archs (2-5 parters) and let the party and DM put the pieces together (desert campaign against goblins and bandits at low-level, war campaign in a distant land at mid, and a high stakes political piece topped off with an unexpected heroic quest at the end, with a few small linking components left here and there).
Besides, Dungeon has plenty of mini-adventure paths, consisting of 2 to 3 adventures at a variety of levels.
As I understand it we will be getting a few sequels (like Maure Castle - adventures that happen infrequently with no with even less regularity than Maure) and one three-part mini-arc this year. I'm not sure you could call that "plenty" unless of course you are adding in the tie-ins to the Salt Marsh (last issue) and the forthcoming Mud Sorcerer's Tomb sequel/remake for the anniversary issue, which because of the time passed since thier introduction really don't count (I really can't see a person who had the original run of Mud Sorcerer's Tomb waiting what is it? -ten years or so- for the final chapter to appear so that they could start their campaign. Could you imagine the AOW Overload messageboard thread that would have spawned? Is it here yet?!?)
One thing though I think I would like to see is the return of the short adventure or side-trek. Most of the Adventure Path scenarios need to be huge to accomidate the 20+ levels in 12 episode format so they eat up a ton of space that could otherwise see the addition of a short 4th adventure or an interesting backdrop. Backdrops in particular are nice. Nowadays they all need tie-ins to published adventures, so they have ready-made side-quest material for those DMs who like a basic frame in which to plant their own hooks and seeds in even while the main adventure is going on inside.
I realize the APs are a huge win for the busy gamemaster, but the three-part (trilogy) format is so much more flexible (especially for we folks who buy Dungeon for easy to adapt generic adventures). When presented in sequential issues with support like Greg V's Against the Giant's redux Istivin series it is just as easy on the haggered GM as a full blown AP. We have no-strings month-to-month subscriptions why not a few low commitment Mini-APs? The secret I think is making the trifecta with as much care as the 12-part APs including support material (like the Wormfood Articles and Backdrops) and making sure there's some buzz surrounding the series. Who here wouldn't just love to see a Return to the Styles?
GGG
There will be a sequel to the Styes very, very soon.
Awesome!
least one sequel to a recent popular adventure (other than the Styes, that is).
Let the rampant speculation begin!!!!
EDIT: Hah, ericthecleric beat me with his first speculation!
GGG, your post put into words almost exactly how I feel on this issue.
I vote for Ill Made Graves.
I thought that there was a high-level sequel to "The Obsidian Eye" in the works.
There will be a sequel to the Styes very, very soon.
As for 3-part campaign arcs; we've got one more or less locked in for the coming year, and at least one sequel to a recent popular adventure (other than the Styes, that is).
Let the rampant speculation begin!!!!
I'd much rather speculate on the 3-part campaign myself (for purely selfish reasons). I like the fact that the magazine is reflecting the current social-political feeling in the U.S. that things are spiraling out of control by including more Far-Plane/Call of Cthulhu content as in "And Madness Followed" or "Pit of the Ooze Lord." Even if it is just an unconscious trend the fact that "Savage Tide" features the most insane of demonic baddies just adds to the mix. I think that's one of the reasons we might have gotten so many borg-esque adventures in the que of late. The idea that a person, group or small society can change into monster and loose control of their own identity is very compelling. Playing the heroes in those sorts of adventures gives a sense of empowerment to people at the table, a chance to right a wrong, and take out some frustrations (with a greataxe no less) on an imaginary mock up of the symptom or root cause. So a three parter-featuring something like the breakdown of a society stuck with outmoded social mores and an invasive alien threat that corrupts otherwise normal folk would be pretty cool. You know, I'm just saying....
Also, I think I know what sequel James is aluding to - if it's not Maure (or the Styles) then I'm seeing knife-loads of topknots in our future. Kind of a harbinger of things to come.
You gotta fight for your right to party,
GGG
I thought that there was a high-level sequel to "The Obsidian Eye" in the works.
That will teach me to waste time on my psy-ops campaign.
GGG
So a three parter-featuring something like the breakdown of a society stuck with outmoded social mores and an invasive alien threat that corrupts otherwise normal folk would be pretty cool. You know, I'm just saying....You gotta fight for your right to party,
GGG
So subtle, Matt....especially the Twisted Sister quote....so subtle....
So subtle, Matt....especially the Twisted Sister quote....so subtle....
So a three parter-featuring something like the breakdown of a society stuck with outmoded social mores and an invasive alien threat that corrupts otherwise normal folk would be pretty cool. You know, I'm just saying....You gotta fight for your right to party,
GGG
I am like that colossal green dragon that unexpectantly belly flops on the party while they're all skinny dipping in the small forest lake.
KOWABUNGA!!!
GGG
PS Did I ever tell you about the adventure I submitted that cast a certain ex-Halliburton employee as a greedy dwarf war profitteer. The response was similar to the response I got for the adventure about the guy with an unatural affinity for dryads and his booming furniture company. Heheh.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
So subtle, Matt....especially the Twisted Sister quote....so subtle....
You gotta fight for your right to party,
GGG
Dude, that's the Beastie Boys, not Twisted Sister! ;-)
So subtle, Matt....especially the Twisted Sister quote....so subtle....
You gotta fight for your right to party,
That quote is from (Ugh!) The Beastie Boys.
F2K, as has been already pointed out it is more of a Beastie Boys quote than anything else, but I'm tellin' Y'all it's Sabotage! In fact this post is designed to fill your mind.
Now that you've realized the prides arrived
We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart.
It's a start, a work of art
to revolutionize make a change nothin's strange
People, people we are the same.
No, we're not the same
Cause we don't know the game
What we need is awareness, we can't get careless
You say what is this?
My beloved lets get down to business
Mental self-defensive fitness
(Yo) bum rush the show
You gotta go for what you know.
Make everybody see, in order to fight the powers that be
Lemme hear you say...
Fight the Power!
I'm not going to take it anymore, how about you?
OG3
If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?....
We now return you to your regularly scheduled tread.
Well, I listened to neither of them, so pardon the confusion....I could swear that I was just testing you guys, but I'd be lying ;) ::wipes 20 year old egg off face::
I will agree that a few more trilogy adventure paths a year would be welcome and most cool. I think that 3 adventure arcs would be cool, as would 10 adventure arcs. hell I would luike all adventures to be linked in some way.
Having said that the 20 level APs is the best thing to happen to Dungeon EVER! They are great. A little more variation would be cool for over arching plot of an AP. I'm sure its hard to find a plot that would please the most people, most of the time.
Messing with the awarding of XP is something they should not do. That's up to individual groups and their DM to deal with.
Do what ever you want but do not stop the AP. I want to be 50 and still reading about a cool new AP.
If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?....
We now return you to your regularly scheduled tread.
Yes, a tread through time, even if the lyrics are a bit fuzzy to my aging brain.....
....and thanks for the ELO quote, GGG.....(just kidding, I'm a huge Pink Floyd fan and wouldn't screw up their lyrics until I'm in my 50's)
(back on topic now)
Slower and smaller future Adventure Paths might also focus more easily and readily to specific settings. Some would have no trouble swallowing a custom made 4-5 adventure Eberron or FR mini-path, mega-arc, while a full AP devoted to one specific setting might give some others heartburn.
I think the smaller AP might make focusing on a specific setting easier to do, methinks.
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I too love Dungeon, and as someone who has struggled for years to aquire every issue from before I started reading in '95, I can honestly say the magazine has never been better. I am a durg addict who happily pays more for a more frequent fix than less for an infrequent lesser fix. But out all the things I love about this mag, it is the co-operative, customer driven nature that keeps me coming back every month, year after year.
My purpose with this thread was to encourage an amendment in style that reflects the best games I have ever played. Games where a year of weekly games could go by without the PC's reaching eighth level. And maybe the current fast advancement nature of D20 is a side effect of the Video game, instant gratification competitive nature of the gaming industry.
How many levels of advancement do you think Drizzt gained withing the pages of the Ice Wind Dale trilogy? Sure he started the trilogy at higher level than 1st, but the series had as long a story line as a 20 level adventure path.
Maybe it is the arbitraryness of the Level system. I just think that slower advancement makes for a richer roleplaying experience. Know that I am not advoctating less action. Just more encounters and adventures to gain a level.
What level was Frodo at the end of the Lord of the Rings? I wonder.
It was the stories that drew me to fantasy gaming, and it is the stories that I struggle to emulate and reproduce.
Tam
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I think Tambrynn said it well.
I'm not asking for Dungeon to change the rules regarding how much XP should be awarded. I'm suggesting that the pacing be more drawn out. Hard to do in a 12 part story. I like the APs, but I don't think we need a lot of 20-level in 12 adventure paths. I'd rather have a 10-level arc in 12 adventures. It fits my games better.
maybe, and i know this is a reach....a 20 part ap....with an average of a level per adventure?
I think it's probably a sequel to "And Madness Followed".
Of course, James can't say at this stage...
Another installment of Maure Castle has already been announced...
I played in a roughly weekly game for two and a half years and in that time the characters went from 6th level to 16 or about 5 levels a year. This pace seemed pretty good but I certainly wouldn't want it to be any slower than that.
I've enjoyed reading the first two adventure paths but haven't run or played any of them yet but given frequency of play (which will likely drop soon to maybe once a month) I'd rather have more of the 3 parters. I like the smaller arcs because:
1) when playing less often than every week or two, it still lets you complete the arc in six months to a year.
2) for the players, they have enough time to develop their characters and advance a few levels but don't get stuck where they're running the same characters forever.
3) for the DM, it means less magazine issues they need to complete the arc and less material to read. If the arc is published in three consecutive issues, the DM can reasonably wait to start until they are all available.
4) it works well as either a one time thing or it can be added into an existing campaign or be used to start a new campaign relatively easily.
One can always take a three part arc and keep going with other homebrew or published adventures. A full 12 part, level 1-20 campaign doesn't leave too much time for anything else if you ever want to get to the final chapter before everyone collects social security.
NOTE: the adventures themselves in these two long paths have been really great reads with a ton of cool villains and monsters and I'm in no way complaining about them - just commenting that several short arcs and stand alone adventures, possibly with optional links to connect them into a longer campaign might have more value for me certainly, and possibly others.
L
It sounds to me like most everyone like s the 20 lvl AP, and I hope Pazio is listing because I really don't want to lose the long AP's, but everyone would also like more numerous shorter AP's. And I'm all for that. As long as I can look forward to 1 20 level AP each year until I die or become distracted by something else (not likely).