**Spoiler Alert**
What's the point of having Eligos murdered by Loris Rankin's lieutenant at the end of the Champion's Belt games only to later have him return alive and well at Magepoint to become a non-factor?
I guess my question is why bring him back from the dead at all? In my campaign Eligos not only was helping the players thru the Hall of Harsh Reflections and the Champions Belt but several side mini-adventures. I adjusted the adventure so his murder was done by a personalized campaign villain that the players then pursed to avenge Eligos murder. Eligos will not be returning in my campaign.
To simply nullify his death for no legitimate reason only lessons the finality of death itself. According to the AP they run into Eligos in a tavern in Magepoint with Celeste where she half-heartedly says "sorry I wasn't there to help". Eligos then only broods in corner and refuses to speak about his murder.
The last we see of him is that he is helping doing research on the Age of Worms with the other heavy hitters.
Why was he brought back???
**Spoiler Alert**
What's the point of having Eligos murdered by Loris Rankin's lieutenant at the end of the Champion's Belt games only to later have him return alive and well at Magepoint to become a non-factor?
The last we see of him is that he is helping doing research on the Age of Worms with the other heavy hitters.
Why was he brought back???
I don't see it exactly the same way you see it, Vile. When adventurers have access to resurection, why wouldn't NPCs? Surely Eligos has friends or associates that would help him out in a pinch, and I'm sure Eligos would do the same for them.
As for his purpose in the story line, because you do not fight on the front lines in no way should diminish one's contributions to the goal. I interpret the story such that Eligos' abilities are quite vital to the heroes chance of success. Manzorian, Agath and Celeste rely on Eligos' ability to perform research and unearth lore long lost.
Ultimately as the story teller you can fashion Eligos' importance. If you no longer want him to factor in the story, so be it. If you believe he should have a bigger impact, engineer one.
Most importantly, make the PCs beg for mercy....
You're not the first person to ask this question. The idea seems to be to heighten the party's connection to Manzorian and to show off how much power and how many connections he has. Death is a big deal... but Manzorian's a bigger one, so to speak. It impresses upon the PCs the idea that if they screw up, then Manzorian can have them raised as well. And it shows that he's someone they can trust, if he's helped one of their greatest allies.
That said, if raise dead and resurrection are rare in your campaign, don't use it! Let Eligos remain dead. But you might consider some other way of showing Manzorian's power and influence.
Thanks guys, I guess I'm looking at it from a story point of view. After years of running campaigns I've learned that if the players aren't afraid that their characters might die and stay that way, then what is there really to fear? Oh sure, you lose a level or some XP but you can always make it up.
Eligos resurrection serves no real point for the story. Just because Manzorian has access to powerful friends (remember he didn't do the actual resurrection) does that mean he should go around resurrecting everyone that he knows because he can? Why did Manzorian stop at Eligos? Why didn't he resurrect Eligos servant that was murdered along with him?
Why should the characters be afraid of facing Lashonna or Dragotha if they just know that Manzorian will bring them back if they die?
Speaking of the bad guys, why doesn't Dragotha have someone resurrect Illthane or Bozal or a half dozen top notch minions. There has to be a point where death is final or it loses meaning.
I have no problem with resurrecting a player or NPC if it is a plot device or has some legitimate purpose. There is just no good reason in Eligos case.
Thanks guys, I guess I'm looking at it from a story point of view. After years of running campaigns I've learned that if the players aren't afraid that their characters might die and stay that way, then what is there really to fear? Oh sure, you lose a level or some XP but you can always make it up.
Eligos resurrection serves no real point for the story. Just because Manzorian has access to powerful friends (remember he didn't do the actual resurrection) does that mean he should go around resurrecting everyone that he knows because he can? Why did Manzorian stop at Eligos? Why didn't he resurrect Eligos servant that was murdered along with him?
Why should the characters be afraid of facing Lashonna or Dragotha if they just know that Manzorian will bring them back if they die?
Speaking of the bad guys, why doesn't Dragotha have someone resurrect Illthane or Bozal or a half dozen top notch minions. There has to be a point where death is final or it loses meaning.
I have no problem with resurrecting a player or NPC if it is a plot device or has some legitimate purpose. There is just no good reason in Eligos case.
Well, Manzorian is a lawful good archmage of tremendous power and influence. It kind of fits in the lawful good moral spectrum to resurrect a valuable cohort and agent if they should be killed in the line of duty (doing research to help avert an apocalyptic prophecy would be under the 'duty' category), if Eligos had died while doing some adventuring in his spare time, Manzorian might not have felt as obligated to have him resurrected.
Manzorian might not be able to resurrect the PCs if they die; in Dragotha's lair I'm fairly certain that anyone that dies is immediately devoured by kyuss worms. And the PCs would have to have told Manzorian exactly where they were going at all times, or ask him to scry on them continuously to figure out how to teleport in and grab their corpses. Otherwise, he would have to mount an expedition to get their remains, which would cost a lot of time and man-power. If the PCs were to look ahead and ask Manzorian to take a percentage of gained treasure as a 'down payment' for a resurrection if they should fail, then he should definitely do so. But, otherwise, it may just prove to be too expensive in resources, which will be needed to stop Kyuss.
Dragotha probably wouldn't resurrect any of his minions because he is an evil undead dragon; he figures that the death of a servant that couldn't hold their own against some upstart adventurers isn't worth keeping in the fold. Survival of the fittest and all that. If they had had valuable information for him, he may get a speak with dead spell but it would be only in extreme cases that he would actually get one returned from the dead. Evil characters tend to care less about what happens to their underlings after they outlive their usefulness.
Pollard (Eligos' servant) may have been resurrected; we just didn't see it happen and it wasn't detailed. Maybe he would have decided to retire or find a new master after being beheaded by an assassin. Or maybe he didn't want to come back; if a character has met his final reward why would they want to come back to their dreary day job cooking and cleaning for a wizard?
Ultimately, if you don't want Eligos back then the guy is gone for good. He could have been brought back to help research while Manzorian is gallavanting through the planes again or what have you. Or he could be a replacement PC or directly helpful NPC in the future should the need arise. Just suggestions.
James you make some valid points. But allot of it is based is on assumptions. You assume the players die in the Wormcrawl fissure and cannot be recovered, what happens if they alley with Dragotha and he kills them in Alhaster?
You assume because Dragotha is evil he wouldn't want to resurrect his failed minions. Why wouldn't he resurrect them and tell them you have one last chance or what I will do to you will make death seem like a happy memory and unleash them all on the players?
I understand that allot of my own opinions are coloring my view and I certainly don't want to argue with any of my peers.
I guess it all comes down to that I just don't agree with the weak justification of bringing Eligos back in the AP and that it underlines the one thing that should concern players which is permanent character death.
We all know it's just a game (at least most of us do) and for players their characters are like favorite toys. Now if you line them up and tell them that the Throne of the Gods is on the other side of a door and if they sit on it they will be given immortality but all they have to do is go thru 5 great wyrms to do it but not to worry if they die they will be resurrected where is the real fun?
Instead you tell them that if the dragons kill them they will may not be able to be resurrected. Well that's a new wrinkle, first they may seek new allies or research the history of the dragons or decide to leave until they think they are strong enough and then come up with a plan.
The point is death should not be taken lightly as in Eligos case but should be instead be something that has real and serious consequences.
Eligos stayed dead IMC. I saw no reason to bring him back.
Thanks guys, I guess I'm looking at it from a story point of view. After years of running campaigns I've learned that if the players aren't afraid that their characters might die and stay that way, then what is there really to fear? Oh sure, you lose a level or some XP but you can always make it up.
So basically your saying raising Eligos reinforces the feeling that death is cheep and anyone who has money or knows anyone of influence can cheat it.
I'm in whole-hearted agreement. This is a typical problem for DMs who try to infuse "realism" in a fantasy game (with the emphasis on the game part). I see generalized options for the DM facing this dilemma:
1) Live with it; its just a game, and a fantasy one at that. Your players will live to complete the story line (unless the all-too-common TPK ensues).
2) Remove the raise dead/resurrection/etc. You infuse a higher level of tension in the game when death in final. Winning a fight (even one normally perceived as a gimmie) carries a greater feeling of accomplishment. Of course, finishing an adventure path in a straight campaign without one death is probably impossible.
There are other options as well, but I would see these two as being on the opposite ends of the spectrum. I prefer option 2, but am adhering to option 1 for AoW.
My next campaign will feature only two spells to restore life to the dead: reincarnate (very risky) and miracle. I’m also toying with the idea of eliminating or increasing the spell level and components of remove disease and remove blindness/deafness. I hate having to have some jacked-up reason why there is or isn’t a crazy guy on the street corner, when a simply 3rd level spell would cure him. It speaks to the same theory of cheep deaths.
So basically your saying raising Eligos reinforces the feeling that death is cheep and anyone who has money or knows anyone of influence can cheat it.
That's absolutely correct!!!
The only thing that I would add is that without the fear of the consequences of permanent character death players often become bored with the campaign because of the lack of danger and challenge. Why worry about anything when the Archmage will come in and make all your problems go away for you?
That's way Eligos resurrection is such a problem for me personally, it lacked true purpose and it takes away from the danger the players will face by taking on Kyuss and his servants.
Resurection is actually a PART of D&D, theres no need to be afraid of that. High level players should KNOW they can get res'd and work out ways that they can be sure it will happen. They should make clones, have contingencies ect to stay alive, this is a PART OF D&D. On the other hand you may not like it, you may want res's to be much harder to get, I have done this before... if so, I would keep eligos dead.
Resurection is actually a PART of D&D, theres no need to be afraid of that. High level players should KNOW they can get res'd and work out ways that they can be sure it will happen. They should make clones, have contingencies ect to stay alive, this is a PART OF D&D. On the other hand you may not like it, you may want res's to be much harder to get, I have done this before... if so, I would keep eligos dead.
Afraid of Resurrections? As a veteran storyteller of the Midnight and The Wheel of Time campaign settings were there was no resurrection or raise spells you have to trust me when I tell you I'm all for res spells. I just don't like when it is used to cheapen the story, like in the case of Eligos.
I just don't like when it is used to cheapen the story, like in the case of Eligos.
and Tenser and the rest of Circle of Eight killed in Vecna Lives.
and Tenser and the rest of Circle of Eight killed in Vecna Lives.
Sorry for the mutiple posts, to be more specific, what I meant was when Rary killed some of the other members of the Circle of Eight after the Greyhawk Wars and destroyed their clones. The consquences of Rary's horrific act were cheapend when those same members returned years later because "one" clone was missed.
Of course the chain of events all begain in Vecna lives.
I see it this way: the Age of Worms AP finishes with the death of Kyuss, but Manzorian, Eligos, Agath, Celeste all continue on with their lives. It's not because we stop playing that "life" that the NPC should stop theirs. After the AoW Manzorian will still need Eligos and Cie for research for other threats.
And another thing...Eligos is Manzorian chief contact in the Free City. I guess it would be much more trouble finding and forming a new recruit than have Eligos raised.
I still think the price in XP and gp for raise dead/rez/true rez are enough. Taking them out of the game is tiping the game balance unfavorably for the clerics. A wizard has TONS of save or die and no way to counter-balance them. If you take them out of the game you should go through the other spell lists to re-balance the game.
My 2 cents.
The recent Dragon article on this topic was very interesting. I can't remember what issue number though :(
If you're referring to the one in #342 (which I wrote), it's in this one: http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2006/342 and thank you.
What I'm planning on doing in my campaign is have Eligos die and stay dead, but it will be more than a random act of violence on behalf of the Ebon Triad. One of my players, a dwarf myrmidon, had his brains sucked out by Zyrxog and had to be resurrected. In my games, death should be taken seriously, and so raising him was a mini-adventure in and of itself as the rest of the party had to convince the clerics of the God of Death (the only ones who have access to resurrection spells) to raise him. When Eligos is killed, it's going to be basically Eligos' life being exchanged for the player's life. The God of Death brings all souls into balance, and so the players are going to have to deal with the fact that, essentially, Eligos dies because they wanted to bring back one of their own.
Yeah, sure, it's a little Smallville, but I like to futz with my players' heads.
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I have to admit to thread-scanning here, so if I missed it in my three-minute read-through, I apologize!
James Jacobs clarified in another thread that Eligos' killer was to be a recurring baddie in the camp of the villains, but that thread was never picked up by the authors of subsequent adventures. Thus, the "wha-huh?" reaction to his seemingly no-build-into-the-story slaying (and eventual return).
I guess it's just my opinion that Bozal Zahol and Ilthane are small potatoes in Dragotha's major plans. I mean, he's got an army of dragons fielded in Kings Of the Rift and avolakia back at the Wormcrawl fissure and his specialized experimental undead. The way I would play Dragotha is that he would likely hold more respect for draconic minions (like Ilthane, so maybe resurrecting her for Prince of Redhand or Kings of the Rift isn't out of the question) and aberrations than for humanoids, which he likely would consider weak and disposable. But that's the way I would portray him, I mean, he is a servant of the god of Decay and the Undead, so life isn't really something he respects. If they were resurrected, it's more likely they would be favored spawn of kyuss, since that would be seen as some sort of divine apotheosis to clerics of the Wormgod.
Hmm...there's an idea.
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You could have Eligos reincarnated instead of ressurected. That way, Manzorian keeps his useful contact and his enemies still assume that Eligos is gone. They just don't realize that he is now the gnome selling gizmos and widgets on the street corner.
It might make for a more interesting encounter in Magepoint when the party is greeted by this gnome who knows a little too much about them.
You could have Eligos reincarnated instead of ressurected. That way, Manzorian keeps his useful contact and his enemies still assume that Eligos is gone. They just don't realize that he is now the gnome selling gizmos and widgets on the street corner.
It might make for a more interesting encounter in Magepoint when the party is greeted by this gnome who knows a little too much about them.
COOL! I love gnomes...what a neat idea.
James Jacobs clarified in another thread that Eligos' killer was to be a recurring baddie in the camp of the villains, but that thread was never picked up by the authors of subsequent adventures. Thus, the "wha-huh?" reaction to his seemingly no-build-into-the-story slaying (and eventual return).
Even if the intention was to have this "recurring baddie" continue to pester the hero's it still doesn't justify the no-reason for Eligos resurrection. In fact by keeping Eligos in the grave it would have provided the players more incentive to hate and hunt down Eligos killer.
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Not the way I see it.
Dead and buried, Eligos' murder is likely to be forgotten in the rush of other events. However, when he returns, he can identify his killer... which, if things had been as originally planned, would have been an ongoing antagonist, giving the heroes all the more reason to hate him/her.
In our campaign, the Lords of Dust will be the Big Bads, shaping events for the eventual resurrection of one of their overlords, Kyuss-Katashka. Okoral will be a Nathzarune Rakshasa (from MM III) and the puppetmaster of Loris Raknian; he'll be the one to eventually take out Eligos in retaliation, and a recurring enemy (beefed up with Assassin and/or Shadowdancer levels along the way). Of course, unless they use True Seeing, and until Eligos returns and describes his killer, they might not realize it's the same foe.
Not the way I see it.
Dead and buried, Eligos' murder is likely to be forgotten in the rush of other events. However, when he returns, he can identify his killer... which, if things had been as originally planned, would have been an ongoing antagonist, giving the heroes all the more reason to hate him/her.
In our campaign, the Lords of Dust will be the Big Bads, shaping events for the eventual resurrection of one of their overlords, Kyuss-Katashka. Okoral will be a Nathzarune Rakshasa (from MM III) and the puppetmaster of Loris Raknian; he'll be the one to eventually take out Eligos in retaliation, and a recurring enemy (beefed up with Assassin and/or Shadowdancer levels along the way). Of course, unless they use True Seeing, and until Eligos returns and describes his killer, they might not realize it's the same foe.
To each his own.
In my campaign the death and loss of a trusted advisor motivated the players to seek and bring to justice his murderer after they discoverd the killers true identity.
His miraculous resurrection would have voided all the anger they felt towards the killer and the work it took to bringe the murderer down would have been cheapend by his spontanous resurrection.
If death and resurrection are commonplace in your campaign world then so be it.
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Poor Eligos... it seems he's become the new Kullen (die Eligos die!!!)
I haven't gotten to this yet (just starting a majorly revised version of Hall of Harsh Reflections). I think I am going to change this so that the PC's arrive as the assassins are trying to kill the poor mage, and make them fight to save his life. If he dies, he stays dead. However, my PC's are a pretty capable bunch, so I expect him to be fully alive and gloomy in the later stories.
In my game the servant survived.
The module doesn't say he died.
The killer disguised himself as the servant to gain access.
When the servant came home early he started attackiing the
fake him with a wand.
The assassin split because he couldn't close and take him out.
The servant will still come up with leads on the assassin,
even though his boss lives.
This assassin also killed Rankin, who the adventurers wanted to kill.
He is now hanging out with the two mind flayers who killed
the NPC fighter (also temporarily) feeding them the heads he collects.
If you want to limit ressurections just say Manzorian
only has 3 of the requisite diamonds.
Now he only has 2 and doesn't know where to buy more.
It gives the thief a reason to steal diamonds from some
fat moron who collects diamonds just for show.