You're absolutely right. I know that if I were a wizard, I'd never make a consumable item and I'd probly leave it up to some other bloke to make me my permanent ones. It doesn't make much realistic sense that magic requires XP, especially when considering that most items are made by non-adventuring NPCs who earn XP much more slowly than PCs. But what alternatives are there? The ability to craft marvelous items, even consumables, has to be counterbalanced by something. I myself am considering dropping XP costs completely; instead of an item costing 1/2 its market price to craft maybe costing 3/4 or even 9/10 market price. Haven't made up my mind yet tho.
I've been a player in a game where both options were used. One DM didn't like the XP loss so he took it out. I had a sorcerer who made mad amounts of magic items. In another game the DM played by the rules. I rarely made scrolls or wands. It cost so much to do it, I could only afford to make one or two each level.
As a DM, I've never had players use the item creation feats. I've had players take them, but they've never used them. This time around I'm going to use the power components option from Unearthed Arcana, the DMG, and a Dragon article from a few years ago to replace the XP loss. We'll see how it works out.
M@
This time around I'm going to use the power components option from Unearthed Arcana, the DMG, and a Dragon article from a few years ago to replace the XP loss. We'll see how it works out.M@
What are power components?
My understanding on this is not that experience points represent memories as such. They are a game mechanic that is to represent an individual's personal energy and power, so to speak. Higher level characters have more power. Since 'power' is an abstract term, D&D uses XP to quantify it in game terms.
So, requiring a wizard or sorcerer to give up XP in order to create a magic item makes complete sense. The creator must put some of his personal 'power' and 'energy (not memories, as was suggested earlier) into the creation of the magic item. There are plenty of literary examples of this and let's face it - it sounds cool:) If a wizard spends a week cranking out wands, he SHOULD be weakened when he is done.
This also makes perfect sense, and works very well, when you remember that magic is SUPPOSED to be rare and wonderful, not common and ordinary. A wizard SHOULD have to think very carefully about creating a magic wand, scroll etc and when he or she does do it, it should be a very important and precious thing. Kind of makes you wonder why many adventures tend to litter treasure hoards with these magic items, doesn't it? This also works into my assertion that D&D works best when magic is rare in the world. If every wizard and his brother can just bang out magic items as if he were nothing more than a baker whipping up loaves of bread, that game world should be knee deep with magic items. Making wizards pure some of their own power and energy into the creation of the magic item makes the entire system more believable and realistic (if such a terms can be used when talking about a fantasy game:)
Just my two coppers ...
What are power components?
Power components are things like a unicorn's horn, red dragon's tooth, dirt from the elemental plane of earth, etc. The articles for power components I mentioned before all suggest using things like that while casting a spell to apply a metamagic feat effect, but I like the idea of using them for making magic items instead of spending XP. It hearkens back to the old days of 1E/2E when making magic items required special ingredients.
M@
I used to GIVE players experience for creating magical items back in 2E.
None of my players have ever taken item creation feats. What's the point? It's not like they're NOT going to find magical items or buy what they need from wizards, etc. Why waste XP on an item that will more or less be found or bought eventually?
At least that's the idea at our table.
Interesting point. This also goes back to my point about magic not being so common. I pretty much hate the idea that you can just go and buy magic items like there are Magical Wal Marts everywhere. Like I said, magic should be rare and wonderous.
none of my players have ever taken item creation feats. What's the point? It's not like they're NOT going to find magical items or buy what they need for wizards, etc. Why waste XP on an item that will more or less be found or bought eventually?
Why waste XP on an item that will more or less be found or bought eventually?
At least that's the idea at our table.
This has always been my opinion too. Although recently, I've been told that you can make better stuff than you can find or buy. So I think that next time I play a wizard, which will most likely be the next time I play, I'm going to try using item creation feats despite the XP costs.
Forgotten Realms is a bit different. PCs should be able to get their hands on bracers of armor, wands of cure light wounds, etc. in cities like Waterdeep, but the price is the problem. Low level PCs shouldn't be buying magical items simply because they'd be too expensive.
By the time PCs have enough dough to purchase the tools they need (magical weapons to combat those magic DR monsters, useful wands, and miscellaneous items for whatever), they should also have the option of creating specific items themselves (if that interests them). It's cheaper to make them yourself, but you have to burn XP. Is it easier to spend more gold or burn more XP? That's up to the player.
I suppose item creation feats really shine when you consider how a player can make exactly what he/she wants. That's when it becomes interesting, and we had a great time doing that in 2E (when I awarded XP for creating an item). Now, burning XP just doesn't seem right.
Maybe I'll develop a house rule where players GAIN the XP that would normally be spent. At least that's a worthy incentive to take those item creation feats.
Power components are items that you can use in lieu of spending XP on a certain item. They're easily given as treasure because you can set a nice gold piece value on them - off the top of my head, I've heard 5gp per XP spoken of somewhere. Mayhaps that should be more like 10gp per XP since in a 25gp item you save 12.5gp and 1XP by making it yourself.
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I've been told that you can make better stuff than you can find or buy. So I think that next time I play a wizard, which will most likely be the next time I play, I'm going to try using item creation feats despite the XP costs.
This is something to watch out for. This takes some of the "control" away from the DM and into the hands of the player. At some point, what is to prevent a character from creating a vorpal sword? The DM would could then say "you can't do that", but doesn't that limit the feat?
As far as scrolls and potions, the amount of actual XP spent is rather minor -- Spell level x Caster level for scrolls and Spell level x Caster level x 2 for potions. So for a 1st level scroll cast at first level, it costs the wizard 1 XP. And as far as usefulness, if I were to create scrolls, I would limit it to spells that are very useful, but ones that I wouldn't always have memorized -- I always hated saying "I have that spell, but we will have to wait until tomorrow."
Two big things come to mind dealing with this -- I also love the idea of power components and plan on making them available to the players -- either to commission an item or to have it made themselves. The other thing is the Artificer class from Eberron. If you don't want to use the class as it is written, you could simply say that spell casters have XXX amount of XP at each level that can be spent of item creation without taping into their personal pool.
A few thoughts.
Also, remember that burning XP on item creation is only a setback. The character can easily regain that XP through adventuring.
Now, it's quite possible for that character to lag behind a bit. But, if you want to mitigate that, allow other characters to donate XP to the creation process (especially if they're the ones wanting the item in the first place). It works fairly well for us.
Now, if you have an artificer, you might want to warn the player that they should NOT be trying to function as a primary caster by cranking out a bunch of potions and scrolls. It taps the XP a bit (even with the craft reserve), but it really burns through any gold they have. The artificer in my campaign is having to find this out the hard way.
Now, it's quite possible for that character to lag behind a bit. But, if you want to mitigate that, allow other characters to donate XP to the creation process (especially if they're the ones wanting the item in the first place). It works fairly well for us.
That seems to work very well for my group as well. No one has a problem contributing to the collective pot of XP because inevitably they will want the wizard's services sooner or later.
So we have everyone in the party contribute an equal share of the XP for every item created. This may be a little far from the original spirit of the item creation feats, but it works to keep everyone on par level wise.
The last thing our group needs as they travel through the AOW is for the group's wizard to lag behind in ability.
I've been told that you can make better stuff than you can find or buy. So I think that next time I play a wizard, which will most likely be the next time I play, I'm going to try using item creation feats despite the XP costs.This is something to watch out for. This takes some of the "control" away from the DM and into the hands of the player. At some point, what is to prevent a character from creating a vorpal sword? The DM would could then say "you can't do that", but doesn't that limit the feat?
One thing that I have noticed, and my players have complained about, is that the DC's for many of the stock magic items in the DMG are pretty low. Once you are high enough levels to start acquiring magic items, what good are they if the DC is only 14? Or the foes you are facing have saves so good that the only way your item will succeed is for them to roll a 1? The thing I like about the crafting rules is that you can make your own crystal ball, for example, with a DC much higher than 14. What self respecting wizard has a crystal ball that can't scry on anyone?
M@
I don't like that it costs XP to make things. Can you select which memories you lose when you make an item?
You do not lose any memories when you expend XP. I'm pretty sure you know that, but the rest of your comments make me think maybe you don't.
If experience points represent experience,
They don't. Moving on...
I haven't decided how I'll handle item creation yet, but I wanted to ask the pro-XP cost crowd (or anyone who uses the XP cost rules, actually) how they handle potions, scrolls, wands, or similar non-renewable magic items (sure you can recharge wands, but you know what I mean).
I have no idea what you mean. I "handle potions, scrolls, wands," etc. according to the rules as written. What problems are you having "handling" expendable magic items according to the RAW?
It's one thing to dump XP into an item that will persist, like a weapon, or armor, but if you lose precious XP to make a potion,
XP aren't really so precious. The thing about expending XP to make magic items is that you tend to get those XP back as soon as you spend enough of them to fall a level behind your companions, because you start earning more XP than they do for each encounter.
And why would anybody ever make these throw away items.
Because they're relatively cheap and can be incredibly useful.
At this point, I'm going to gently suggest that you not tinker with the RAW until you understand the system better.
I don't know the exact cost, but for example, wouldn't it be much better to make a ring of wizardry instead of a wand that had 50 shot of the same level spell?
Not if you tend to cast that spell multiple times in the same day on a fairly frequent basis. Magic missile, for example, makes for a great wand.
Sure other characters, like rouges, could then use the crafted items, but I'm not wasting my XP so some thief can shoot a few fireballs.
At least, not until that thief is the only person standing between your unconscious character and a ravenous horde of flesh-eating ice trolls, right?
My problem with the whole XP cost thing is: the rule part balances nicely, but the fit into the story aspect needs some thought.
Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Economically I think there would be no scrolls, wands, or potions at all. Or they'd be so rare that most people wouldn't know...
I'm as much of a geek as anyone on these boards, I'm sure, but the last thing I have any interest in doing during a D&D game is pondering the economic feasability of expendable magic items. I'll leave that part of the discussion to you and anyone else who cares.
Director of Narrative
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My problem with the whole XP cost thing is: the rule part balances nicely, but the fit into the story aspect needs some thought.
Think of XP as a 'lifeforce' of sorts. As characters 'experience' life they gain a stronger life force. Think of the level-drain ability and why it costs XP to cast Wish and such. Now bring that down a bit and one can understand how someone crafting a magic item puts some of themselves into the item.
Dunno, just a metaphysical way of looking at a game mechanic. The last thing we as DMs want to do is ever bring up level or experience points throughout the flow of the story.
About 50% of the spellcasters in my games actually take Item Creation feats. You get exactly what you want, for HALF PRICE! Plus, if you can find an interested buyer and sell the thing (not too hard if you have any contact with fellow adventurers), you effectively are ahead by however much you spent to make the thing. Very nice.
The XP costs for scrolls are actually, as previosuly said, fairly negligible. 1 XP for a 1st level scroll. The gp cost is the only factor to consider.
1/25 the base price in XP, which, as has been said, isn't REALLY learning, but a measure of an otherwise abstract "personal power", is very reasonable. I like the idea of power components to replace it (I always have loved power components), but the two systems need not be mutually exclusive.
I also like the thought of upping the price of a staff and making it 50 charges per spell. They are meant to be one of the most powerful magic items, and a staff "running out of juice" isn't really something that comes from literature or folklore at all, that I know of.
Speaking of staves being awesome: do you know WHY staves (staffs?) kick major @$$? Because they use the caster level and save DC as if the wielder cast it! Nothing else, not even scrolls and wands, does this. The save DC for a spell from any item but an artifact (and even then, only if it's in the item's description) or staff is always the lowest it can possibly be. A wand/scroll of Fireball always has a save DC of 14 (10 + 3rd level spell + 1 for the 13 Int needed to cast), whether it's 5d6 or 10d6. Although, Heighten Spell can be used to change this, giving much more utility to an otherwise poor choice of a feat.
Not that scrolls and wands are bad; they're awesome. However, to maximize efficiency, if that's your thing, it's always best to put a spell in them that doesn't allow for a save, such as buffing spells or things like Scorching Ray and Melf's Acid Arrow and Magic Missile. Save the spell slots for things that actually allow saves. As a side note, I don't think that's metagaming; a wizard would know that the spell in his wand/scroll was weaker than the one he actually cast.
Wow Veg, been over at WotC boards lately? That was a very passive/aggressive post towards 1010. I haven't seem much of that on these board, usually I only see them over at WotC site where they seem to love to disect and destroy other posters. Hope that isn't happening to these boards.
Re-reading my post, I see that you're right: I was pretty hard on 1Ol0. My apologies for that. I must have been in a bad mood.
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Wow Veg, been over at WotC boards lately? That was a very passive/aggressive post towards 1010. I haven't seem much of that on these board, usually I only see them over at WotC site where they seem to love to disect and destroy other posters. Hope that isn't happening to these boards.Re-reading my post, I see that you're right: I was pretty hard on 1Ol0. My apologies for that. I must have been in a bad mood.
We all get there sometimes, man. It's all good.
game on.FH
Speaking of staves being awesome: do you know WHY staves (staffs?) kick major @$$? Because they use the caster level and save DC as if the wielder cast it! Nothing else, not even scrolls and wands, does this. The save DC for a spell from any item but an artifact (and even then, only if it's in the item's description) or staff is always the lowest it can possibly be. A wand/scroll of Fireball always has a save DC of 14 (10 + 3rd level spell + 1 for the 13 Int needed to cast), whether it's 5d6 or 10d6. Although, Heighten Spell can be used to change this, giving much more utility to an otherwise poor choice of a feat.
I thought that if your mage made a scroll of fireball, to use your example, and calculated the increased cost of adding his level, the scroll would be treated as if the spell was cast at that level. I had no idea that the DC of the save would not change, but I guess that it makes sense now that you've pointed it out.
Consummable magic in my campaign is handled pretty much like it is in the books: If you make it, it has max charges and you get exactly what you want. If you have to go looking for a wand of lightning bolts you miiight find one, but I seriously doubt that it will have anywhere near full charges and the cost would be considerable. Actually, it's the same for making any magic item IMC - if you want to find a +3 keen frost burst kama, you're going to have to make it, because those haven't been seen growing on trees since long before 3rd ed... I mean before the Gods walked Faerun.
Celric
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I thought that if your mage made a scroll of fireball, to use your example, and calculated the increased cost of adding his level, the scroll would be treated as if the spell was cast at that level. I had no idea that the DC of the save would not change, but I guess that it makes sense now that you've pointed it out.
The save DC for scrolls is set using the level of the spell and the minimum attribute necessary to cast that spell - the level of the spellcaster doesn't alter the DC. To effect the DC, you'd need to do something like scribe a heightened fireball.
I've mentioned before, but in my campaigns I do wands with dice instead of charges. Whenever a player uses the wand, he must make a charge check using a die based on how charged the wand is. So, a fully charged wand as a d20 charge die. From there it goes to d12, d10 and d8. Any time you roll a 1, you degrade to the next lowest charge die. If you roll a 1 on a d8, then that was the last charge and the wand is empty. I find that it reduces bookkeeping substantially and makes players much more likely to use their wands.
The idea of a collective xp pool is cool, but I'm going to put a twist on it IMC.
With a necromantic spell (say, 5th level) a caster can get the xp from someone else (perhaps willing, perhaps not). And when using the spell, you will be able to lose a level -- anyone reduce to 0 xp dies.
I love it as a motivator for an evil spellcaster -- he/she is kidnapping people (the higher level, the better) to fuel item creation.
Regards all,
Jack
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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I don't like that it costs XP to make things. Can you select which memories you lose when you make an item? "I learned how to bake a cake last week, but I'm going to have to learn again because I want to make an invisibility scroll"
Friends, friends, friends... The point is that experience points represent increased ability to perform. Which is why I've develped a "non-adventuring" experience point system. Yes, during a character's "down time" between adventures he can earn experience points via study and practice. With this system, a character can improve and practice his stuff and earn experience points. This is of course, not the stuff of "high adventure", so it's not the sort of thing we do on a regular basis, but it does fill in the gaps and makes a lot of sense to me. Comments?
I also have a system for training. Basically xp for time and money spent. How does yours work?
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I also have a system for training. Basically xp for time and money spent. How does yours work?
I hate the whole "gotta train to level up" thing. I think training should be once every 4-5 levels, if even that much. Speed, reflexes and combat activities are honed in combat situations. A basic training camp for fighters or an apprenticeship for wizards before they start their adventuring careers is more than adequete in most cases.
I had alot of training in martial arts and boxing, but they can only give a basic understanding of how combat works and the moves to use in combat. Only through true gritty combat (not sparring) does a person really learn how to survive in combat situations.Training is used by DMs who want a way to limit and control the wealth of their players' characters instead of just adjusting the output of treasure.
this is all IMO of course and I don't expect everyone to agree with my take on training, but the adventure paths are geared towards automatic leveling once the xp is gained, so that kinda gives my opinion a bit of credit. The Shackled City path was a very fast paced campaign, try training for 1 week per level there and see how fast things hit the fan.
FH
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I kinda agree with you on losing xp to make a magic item. You...essentially use a skill, and instead of honing your abilities as a wizard you get more sucky at it. Makes about as much sense as doing a lung scan on a cat fish.
I think I'll just chuck it totally.
Generally speaking, the more you do something the better you get at it, right? Maybe just make it all cost a lot of ducats, and make it really time consuming and labor intensive. You need a good alchemist's lab to go churning out potions, that sort of thing.
The whole train to level up thing is crap too. I was dogged out for being a giveaway dm in 1st ed. by all the neophyte middleschool ruleslawyers for chucking it altogether. Yeah, I just defeated an ogre in single hth combat; think I need to go to the dojo now and "wax on, wax off."
About 50% of the spellcasters in my games actually take Item Creation feats. You get exactly what you want, for HALF PRICE! Plus, if you can find an interested buyer and sell the thing (not too hard if you have any contact with fellow adventurers), you effectively are ahead by however much you spent to make the thing. Very nice.
Everyone that can in my party tends to pick up an Item creation feat. As you noted - you get what you want when you want it (more or less) and its half price.
The XP simply gets kicked back to you should you ever actually fall a level behind. XP can be regained but gold is forever.
Its interesting the semi extremes on this topic. I have heard of a reasonable number of DMs that more or less play by RAW that simply don't allow Item Creation Feats feeling that they are too powerful and unbalancing. On the other hand a great many DMs report that their players never touch Item Creation Feats and feel that they are therefore too weak (or more accuratly the requirments are too prohibative).
Personally I lean toward the 'too powerful' camp though not so much to actually do anything about it.
The ability for a party to pretty much double the amount of magic they are equiped with (and more or less thats what happens to adventurers gold - it gets converted into equipment and magic items) is not to be under estimated. Essentially thats what an Item creation feat does - it instead of buying the magic item you make two of the same value. The feats either need to limited in some manner (sorry can't use you feat - no blood of a virgin Silver Dragon, get blood of virgin Silver Dragon and I'll let you use the feat to make something cool). Or it has to come with a price (like XP). Otherwise your players will become walking magic shops. They'll stop every chance they get and crank out items like like their life depended on it (and sometimes it does).
Just do what I do and give XP based for actually completing a quest, not for individual actions. That way you get XP for having life EXPERIENCES, rather than killing rats or some such. You go through a series of ordeals and suddenly find you're smarter, more capable, etc. That mirrors life more closely, I think. See the "And It Hit Me" thread for more.
Okay so here's my two takes on XP costs. First, the patch: XP cost does not mean the magic item sucks your memories, or even your personal power, or anything so much as your time and attention. The XP cost could be thought of as time sitting around making an item that you could have spent adventuring or whatnot and thus the character loses out on some XP he would otherwise have. It seems a simple and reasonable explaination.
Now on the other hand, I've always been one to bring magic item creation front and center. We had a whole adventure about creating a helm of opposite alignment. An archmage in the same campaign is driving himself mad unlocking mysteries man was not meant to know in the effort to create a Mass Ressurrection spell using the Life Seed. I like the idea of item creation being an event--the obtaining of the rare ingredients, the acquisition of suitable laboratories, the principles of magic applied or learned. I usually just use the costs as a guideline. If something costs 3000 XP and 10,000 gold to make I tend to read that as 10,000 gold worth of materials to be obtained in various adventures or the hiring of specialists, and adventuring costs or whatever and that the making of the thing should feature prominently in one way or another for about 5-10 game sessions before it's done (since I tend to give flat group XP at about 300-600 a session). I find this makes a much more colorful and fun way to do items.
The save DC for scrolls is set using the level of the spell and the minimum attribute necessary to cast that spell - the level of the spellcaster doesn't alter the DC. To effect the DC, you'd need to do something like scribe a heightened fireball.
According to the DMG (Pg 215) the CL sets the saving throw bonus as well as any effects of the spell, the disadvantage is that the cost of the scroll or wand starts increasing at a rapid rate once you increase the caster level of the item and it is more cost effective powerwise to create these items to contain higher level spells (if your PC is able to). I'm wondering if the confusion is the bit under scrolls (Determine Effect section DMG Pg 238) that says "Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum..."?