Yeah, I read. Only the last sentence was really directed toward you. The rest of it was for everyone else, everyone that has a problem with Koga atleast.
Here is why I get so angry about crap like this: If someone kills a dozen people and happens to have a D&D book in their house, We (Gamers) get blamed and labled "Satanists".
If the news decides to do an Indepth Investigation on Satanic Cults and Dungeons and Dragons (Geraldo Rivera In the 80's anyone?) they aren't going to look for an intelligent respectable member of society like Eric Mona of a celebrity like Vin Diesel (Yes hes a gamer, no he doesn't fit the sterotype). No, the media will find some shmuck like this spouting off about how Evil he is and how the game taught him how to summon real demons and worship the Devil.
As I said before, I am a Pagan. I deal with small minded predjudice ALL the time because of my religion, because most people only know the propaganda and haven't bothered to learn the facts. And I am painfully aware of how this perception can effect you life. I haven't spoken to my father in 15yrs because of his small minded attitude, and pseudo-Christian crusading (I say psudo because the only time he has gone to church in the last 20yrs is for weddings and funerals.)
Pagans have a fear of what was called "The Burning Times". The inquisition, THe Salem Witch Trials, Etc. And as much as society likes to think that it is all behind us, it isn't. I've read incidents to this day of people in the 'Bible Belt' that have lost their jobs, their children, and their homes because of their religion. People who have been harrassed by the police and their neighbors. ANd I tell you with this president in office and his attack on the seperation between church and state, it would be very easy for another Sataninc Panic to start. And by simple association with this game, we all could be sucked into it.
* Blackdragon stepping down off of his soap box, looking around at all the blank stares.*
Yeah, I read. Only the last sentence was really directed toward you. The rest of it was for everyone else, everyone that has a problem with Koga atleast.
It's cool, man...congrats on the baby, BTW...best wishes!
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ANd I tell you with this president in office and his attack on the seperation between church and state, it would be very easy for another Sataninc Panic to start.
Maybe its just me, but I don't really get you're above reference. Sure President Bush has shown himself to be a little more religious than a lot of politicians out there today, but I haven't seen anything that resembles an "attack" on the separation of church and state. What I do see, are attacks on the church by the state (and vice versa) from both sides of the political fence. That's just a part of politics as usual though.
Also, I'm confused about your use of the term Pagan. I always thought that pagan was just a term the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) used to refer to anyone who wasn't a part of their repsective faiths. Do you mean the Celtic or Druidic culture? Something else? Now you've got my curiousity peaked, because I love to do research into old religions.
Satan is given access to the subjects mind during the seemingly innocuous task of attempting to roll 6 6 6 with a set of dice 6 times.
Now I know why I hate munchkin characters with straight 18s for ability scores! ;)
There will always be petty minds out there that feel threatened by anyone who has more imagination than they do, and demagogues who turn such people's ignorance into cash and political power. Especially in this most anti-intellectual of nations, America. Doesn't have much to do with religion at all, which after all is a quest for understanding of the mysteries of the universe. Your garden variety Jack Chicks and their followers have no clue that Christianity and indeed all of what we call civilization came into being because of the imaginative powers God gave to their predecessors. The beautiful, fanciful poetry of Psalms and the Song of Songs, the strange apocalyptic visions of Daniel and Revelations, the parables of Jesus all come from this source. Christianity has been shaped through the ages by fantasy (allegorical, utopian, and otherwise)--St. Augustine, Dante, Thomas More, the Irish saints, Milton, Bunyan--who can imagine Christianity without the influences of these figures, who explored their faith and their human weaknesses through the medium of what amounts to fantasy literature. Their visions weren't all pearly gates and radiant light, either--sometimes we have to admit the presence of the demons that plague us, to explore their powers and their seductions in our minds in order to conquer them--certainly these writers and many more did, and Christianity is a richer, deeper, better religion because of it. Unfortunately, some people think religious faith means running away from our humanity rather than exploring it and coming to terms with it during the brief time given us to enjoy being human. I guess all we can do is patiently remonstrate with them, and hope that they eventually realize what a narrow, sterile vision of life and faith they have confined themselves to.
Praise the Lord and pass the dice! And may the saints of fantasy smile upon our play!
P of B
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Aberzombie wrote:
"Maybe its just me, but I don't really get you're above reference. Sure President Bush has shown himself to be a little more religious than a lot of politicians out there today, but I haven't seen anything that resembles an "attack" on the separation of church and state. What I do see, are attacks on the church by the state (and vice versa) from both sides of the political fence. That's just a part of politics as usual though."
President Bush has made some moves that seem to blur the lines between church & state (vouchers for religious schools & terry schiavo (sp?) for example), but "attack" is too strong a word. What is scary about this presidency is the possibility that he really does believe he's been given a divine mission to democratize the middle east. Hopefully it's all just a con to procure their oil reserves, but maybe he really thinks he doing God's work. And if he believes that he's doing God's will, then he's only accountable to God, not the national will.
When faith begins to trump reason in politics, events can get weird really fast.
And as the late Dr Thompson said:
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
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President Bush has made some moves that seem to blur the lines between church & state (vouchers for religious schools & terry schiavo (sp?) for example), but "attack" is too strong a word.
The voucher programis not designated for religious schools, as I recall, just for schools that have good reputations. It just so happens that many of the best schools in this country are run by religious organizations, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim.
Also, if I recall correctly, it wasn't President Bush who attempted to interfere in the Schiavo case, although he urged for her to be kept alive. Instead it was the Republican congress who attempted to circumvent states rights.
What is scary about this presidency is the possibility that he really does believe he's been given a divine mission to democratize the middle east. Hopefully it's all just a con to procure their oil reserves, but maybe he really thinks he doing God's work. And if he believes that he's doing God's will, then he's only accountable to God, not the national will.When faith begins to trump reason in politics, events can get weird really fast.
And here I thought that Bush was finally trying to end the mistakes of the past, when previous administrations (of both parties) allowed brutal dictatorships to flourish in that region just so that the communists wouldn't win.
Also, I have heard before this claim that Bush thinks he is doing God's will. Does anyone know exactly where this claim comes from? I've checked, but never been able to find the transcript of the speech when he made such a claim. Of course, I'm not the best with computer searches....
ANd I tell you with this president in office and his attack on the seperation between church and state, it would be very easy for another Sataninc Panic to start.Maybe its just me, but I don't really get you're above reference. Sure President Bush has shown himself to be a little more religious than a lot of politicians out there today, but I haven't seen anything that resembles an "attack" on the separation of church and state. What I do see, are attacks on the church by the state (and vice versa) from both sides of the political fence. That's just a part of politics as usual though.
Also, I'm confused about your use of the term Pagan. I always thought that pagan was just a term the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) used to refer to anyone who wasn't a part of their repsective faiths. Do you mean the Celtic or Druidic culture? Something else? Now you've got my curiousity peaked, because I love to do research into old religions.
Ok, fair enough on Bush, so here are som examples: Federal funding for religious organizations, His Pro life stance being based on his religion, his refusal to fund stem cell research- same reason, All of which I find Ironic dur to his support of the death penalty. And the huge amount of support given to him by The Christian Collition, meaning Pat Roberts, and Jerry Fallwell. Remember that Bush called the war on terror a Crusade after 9-11? Ok, sorry, enough pollitics.
Paganism: An Essay by Blackdragon
What Paganism means to the pagan comunity is usually a blanket term used to cover all non mainstream religions. Pagans include, Wicca, Asatru (SP? Follores of the norse pantheon), And solitary practitioners of Ecelectic beliefs and faiths, (And pretty much anyone else who wants to call themself pagan).
My beliefs are that humans are not seperate from nature and that we are just another animal in the jungle. Respect for nature is paramount, due to the fact that nature will destroy you if you don't respect her. My faith is Polytheistic, meaning I believe in more than one god or goddess. I also believe in the Idea of survival of the fittest.
I call my self pagan because I don't fit into anyone elses box. I believe in what I feel is right to me. I don't need a church to be close to my deity, because my deity is in all living things and the earth herself. I don't preach my beliefes, but I will defend them ruthlessly and violently if they are attacked.And my over all oppinion is Do what you will. Just don't do it on my porch. Don't ring my doorbell at 7 am to tell me about the Watchtower, or to ask me if I've found Jesus? I'm not looking for him (and if you can't keep trak of where you put your savior, you're not going to get another one.)
But seriously, I hope I haven't offended anyone here. (In reallity I really don't care if I did, I just want to keep peace on the board.)
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Ok, sorry, enough pollitics.
Paganism: An Essay by Blackdragon
What Paganism means to the pagan comunity is usually a blanket term used to cover all non mainstream religions. Pagans include, Wicca, Asatru (SP? Follores of the norse pantheon), And solitary practitioners of Ecelectic beliefs and faiths, (And pretty much anyone else who wants to call themself pagan).
My beliefs are that humans are not seperate from nature and that we are just another animal in the jungle. Respect for nature is paramount, due to the fact that nature will destroy you if...
Cool, that satifies my curiousity. I appreciate people who hold so firmly to beliefs that exist outside of what most people consider "mainstream". I like to answer stuff like that with a quote from one of my favorite comic characters, Nightcrawler (of the X-men), "What is normal". In other words, its all in how we preceive the world as individuals. Personally, I was born and raised a Catholic, though I don't practice anymore. I don't really like organized religion, as I feel it is subject to the same type of corruption and abuse of power found everywhere else in society. Of course, I still think that there is a God, somewhere, and hope to sit back and share a beer and a joke with him when I finally shove off of this mortal coil.
I attended a Christian school for high school in the 80s, so I well remember the "anti-D&D" crusades. I was even told by my principal that I was not allowed to play D&D at school, or teach it. (I did get permission to teach it to anyone who specifically asked about it, however. I got the impression that he didn't believe the baloney the Christian right was spewing about it.)
What was the crusade against D&D about? Power, plain and simple. Back in the early 80s, several evangalists, including Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, supposedly got together because their incomes were dropping. They needed a new crusade to drive in donations, and because D&D was popular at the time with kids, they picked it to rail against, all in an attempt to get money and keep power over their followers. If that's not evil, I don't know what is.
Remember, we're talking about people who have famously said "God will put me in the White House," "Islam is satanic and bent on ruling the world," and advocate the assassination of public leaders he doesn't like. (all by Pat Robertson, btw. I think his comments about Islam are because they would interfere with his attempts to control the world, but that's my opinion.)
Squid
All those guys try to remain in control by giving their followers a simple, even simplistic portrayed enemy to hate. The communists don´t serve as enemies anymore these days, so we take muslims. And anything that is not "mainstream" enough can serve as enemy, too.
They constantly try to evoke the "us vs. them" mentality and place themselves as the leaders of "us". A sense of community is always much easier to evoke if you have a real or percieved enemy to stand against. Read or view "The Wave", if you haven´t already. There this ideas are being put to a shocking test, and I´m in no doubt that this would really work.
Stefan
All those guys try to remain in control by giving their followers a simple, even simplistic portrayed enemy to hate. The communists don´t serve as enemies anymore these days, so we take muslims. And anything that is not "mainstream" enough can serve as enemy, too.
They constantly try to evoke the "us vs. them" mentality and place themselves as the leaders of "us". A sense of community is always much easier to evoke if you have a real or percieved enemy to stand against. Read or view "The Wave", if you haven´t already. There this ideas are being put to a shocking test, and I´m in no doubt that this would really work.Stefan
The Wave?
The Wave?
Free ale to the 1st poster that mentions something besides politics and christianity! *taps barrel of dwarven ale
A balor, an archon, and a modron walk into a bar...
The balor and the archon start a game of 9-ball and the modron hits on the 80-year-old waitress...
Let's get back to the original topic. Don't dismiss the idea that D&D is evil out of hand.
Just look at the people who partake of it. They assume strange names and post on messageboards with bizarre pictures beside those names. And they do this while most of them should be working.
It ain't right I tells ya.
Whoa, hold it right there buddy! I worked really hard to get my own business going just so I would have a boss that didn't mind if I goofed off at work!
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I think the perception about Bush's domestic & foreign policy decisions being implimentation of divine will come from numerous interviews were he has said that he prayed on this or that issue. I never heard him say that he got a response, but that is the implication. Even it's just: "Dear God, is this a bad idea?" & since God doesn't respond, it must be ok; that's scary to me.
I understand also that my preception of how prayer works is certainly different from people who do believe in a supreme being/higher power. That said, my father is a presbyterian minister & I did my undergrad work at Centre College (presbyterian school) so I do understand the prayer process to some extent; its just not real to me.
Further on Bush & bringing democracy to the muslim world, we should be realistic. Our president holds hands with feudal monarchs on the whitehouse lawn & gives carte blanche to a pakistani general who over through a democratically elected woman president, Benazhir Bhutto. Of course, he may have long term vision of how all this will play out. In any case the die is cast & we're going to be paying for this for a long time--monetarily & metaphorically.
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All those guys try to remain in control by giving their followers a simple, even simplistic portrayed enemy to hate. The communists don´t serve as enemies anymore these days, so we take muslims. And anything that is not "mainstream" enough can serve as enemy, too.
They constantly try to evoke the "us vs. them" mentality and place themselves as the leaders of "us". A sense of community is always much easier to evoke if you have a real or percieved enemy to stand against. Read or view "The Wave", if you haven´t already. There this ideas are being put to a shocking test, and I´m in no doubt that this would really work.Stefan
Same principle that Hitler used. Unite the people behind your leadership to eradicate a fabricated evil. Obviously he went a bit more overboard than say, Falwell.
Also, I'm confused about your use of the term Pagan. I always thought that pagan was just a term the big three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) used to refer to anyone who wasn't a part of their repsective faiths. Do you mean the Celtic or Druidic culture? Something else? Now you've got my curiousity peaked, because I love to do research into old religions.
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Witches, celts, budhists, hindus and practitioners of ancient Hawaiian culture are all pagan and hold the belief in and worship many gods. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Mormon religions believe in the one God of Abraham, father to all the relegions mentioned above.
ANd I tell you with this president in office and his attack on the seperation between church and state, it would be very easy for another Sataninc Panic to start.Maybe its just me, but I don't really get you're above reference.
I work for a non profit youth center on Maui and we now have to compete with local churches for funding. I Work in a rural ghetto. Their is only one stop light in our town but,the park next to our center offers crack, smack hookers, pot and the devestating meth. We offer a safe place for local children to hang out. We have to compete with an organization that offers ever lasting life. As a non profit we work with churches and they always show up with an agenda. Church youth groups offer simple solutions to complex issues. So a center likes ours get the cast offs who just can't be tolerated in these church groups.
Don't get me wrong, I think church groups have lead the way in rebuilding families broken by meth addiction in my community. But for many issues youth deal with today they offer a narrow way out, the church. Believe me brother that ain't enough to rear a community of youth into a community of caring adults.
Back to the idea of Bush funding religious groups to do social work, in my community thier ain't no mosques, we have churches and a few synagogues. The synagogues on Maui are very small and aren't in the social services field. It's the christian chruches that compete with non religious non profits for such funding. These churches are rich and have an agenda. They don't need federal funding to further that agenda. I have already had my job threatened by a pastor of a large local church.
So Amberzombie I am keenly aware of threat upon the seperation of State and Church and the problems inherent when church groups monopolize social programs.
For the record I would like to state that I am A born again christian. Both Tolerance and Forgiveness are key beliefs (if not practice) for christians. Also, like many native peoples christianiized I still hold and was tought the Hawaiian value system. Hawaiians use a word pono- which is do what is right (different not superior to black dragons pagan beliefs of do what he likes). How does a person know what is right, from his na'au, the center of his being his gut feelings the concious. It may seem strange but christian tolerance and my pagan faith in my na'au keeps me open minded about religion and others beliefs.
and because jesus will forgive meee...,
The Great Green God.., worship him.., worship him., my master.., my green master.., worship him.., worship him..,
I work for a non profit youth center on Maui and we now have to compete with local churches for funding.
I know this is sooooooo off topic, but I just wanted to let Sir Kaikillah know I feel for him... and maybe offer a glimmer of hope.
I completely agree there are faith based orgs (organizations) that do good work and a do a great job of keeping the religious card out of what they do. Catholic Charities' Immigration program in my own geographic region comes to mind. But they've had years of experience in what they do and I truely think the new push of the Faith Based Initiative will fail...
A wad of money coming at a church group may seem great UNTIL they have to deal with the stat reporting, audits, billing, and accounting aspects of the grant world. THIS is where I've seen groups fail (and some of them are local chapters of national organziations). They simply don't understand the fiscal and reporting requirements that go with grants, nor do they have the infrastructure necessary to adhere to these requirements.
Locally, there was a faith based org that was the lead on a large collaborative. It was a complete mess until at the urging of the other collaborative partners, they agreed to step down as the lead and let another non-profit with more experience in grant management take over.
So... provided that someone chooses to hold these groups accountable (and that someone is likely to have to be the non-profit community itself... demanding that they be held to the same strict requirements as the rest of us).. the only ones that will survive will be the ones that truely deserve to.
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Our president holds hands with feudal monarchs on the whitehouse lawn & gives carte blanche to a pakistani general who over through a democratically elected woman president, Benazhir Bhutto.
Its true that Bush, like previous Presidents, has allied himself with some questionaable folks - The Saudi's, Musharraf, Mubarak in Egypt. But these alliances have also given new life to the democractic movements in those countries. They recently had elections in Egypt where more than one candidate was allowed to run and people were allowed to vote for him. Sure Mubarak still one, but only by about 70-80% instead of the usual 99% of the vote. That's more progress in 5 years then all the past 20 or so years that we've been dumping $2 billion or so into Egypt. And there were elections in a part of Saudi Arabia where it was reported that some women actually got to vote. Finally, since we have been allied with Musharraf, Pakistan and India have actually refrained from threatenin each other with nukes and been trying to work out their differences.
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So Amberzombie I am keenly aware of threat upon the seperation of State and Church and the problems inherent when church groups monopolize social programs.
Okay, I see the problem now. I think we are all operating under different conceptions of the idea of the "Separation of Church and State". I like to go with the original idea from the First Ammendment, which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." So basically, the way I see it, the Government can't establish an official state religion and can't interfere in someone's practice of religion. I don't see anything that says the President can't throw his support behind organizations that want to help people just because said organizations are backed by a certain religion. If you all want to interpret the Constitution differently, that is your choice.
Same principle that Hitler used. Unite the people behind your leadership to eradicate a fabricated evil. Obviously he went a bit more overboard than say, Falwell.
They constantly try to evoke the "us vs. them" mentality and place themselves as the leaders of "us". A sense of community is always much easier to evoke if you have a real or percieved enemy to stand against. Read or view "The Wave", if you haven´t already. There this ideas are being put to a shocking test, and I´m in no doubt that this would really work.Stefan
Fake Healer, Watch "the wave" if you get a chance. It's a very powerfull movie, and reading your post, I think you'll enjoy it.
well this is interesting to me. I am sure D&D is not evil or at least anymore evil than any other game. I had this very converstaion this weekend with one of my new gamers after he had been to church the week prior and gaming and the occult came up for discussion. He thought it was crap that people can't relax over a game. He also went on to mention he's never even met someone who wasn't christian who played D&D (we live in a very conservative community) I smiled and let him know I'm a pagan and have been for a very long time. I don't flout and scream death to any who don't accept me or my beleifs in fact i rearely go into detail about it at all. I don't do sacrafices or try to convert my group to any particualr cuase through D&D. And sadly i'm not the sexy DM either nor have i found one.. Gaming is all about having fun with your freinds. period. you leave the rest at the door. Pagans and wiccans get a bad rap because of certain extremists who are darn nutz even by my open minded standards. In my two gaming groups we have 1 atheist 4 catholics 1 jew and 3 Pagans myself included. we all get along and one of our best games ever we went on the crusades!
I went to a Catholic high school and the priests there didn't find DnD satanic or corrupting. In fact, two of the priests occasionally joined our games and weren't half-bad at it. One played a druid and the other a ranger. A couple of my "civilian" teachers played in our campaign for years. I suppose they all had a better grasp at what it was about. On, the other hand, the stepmother of one guy in our group would refuse to let us play in her house. On those occasions we had to play outside in their camper. Meanwhile her kids were doped up on weed and getting busted.
Pagans and wiccans get a bad rap because of certain extremists who are darn nutz even by my open minded standards.
That's true even of Christianity and Islam. A lot of people, when you say "Christians" they think of loud, bigoted fundamentalists, and when you say "Muslims" they think of Bin Laden and suicide bombers.
I think the idea of good and evil is all relative. And man has this thread gone completely off topic, at least in my opinion at some points. As for organized religion, I would have to agree that it is just as corruptable if not more so than other organizations.
Personally I believe in nature and through nature i find God. I usually reflect once a week on how I have behaved and how I could have behaved and how I can improve myself and thus the rest of the world. As in the end isn't that where improving the world comes from the improvement of one's self first. Didn't William Shakespeare write that?
Yeah, so I still can't actually believe all the banning of D&D at the schools that has gone on, crazy. My praises to all that have dealt with it.
Later
A.