I have found a spell that I think is so crazy and unbalanced I thought I'd launch this thread to find out what other hidden munchkin spells are out there.
The spell I found? Power Word Pain. Source: Races of the Dragon. Take a look and tell me what you think.
Well my most powerful spell is magic missle. It's not unbalanced just powerful. My lvl 18 sorceror uses it till this day.
I know no height to hyperness-Gubbaffet
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Don't worry, Sebastian will come on and post here to tell you that game designers don't make mistakes.
This is just another example of Supplemental Book Ridiculitis and can be cure by no longer buying the junk that is being mass produced to make a profit off of gullible gamers.
Just Say No to Supplemental Profiteering
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FH
Two words: Magic missile
The most powerful first level spell would have to be...IDENTIFY!!! It allows the caster to cast any spell in any book from that weird looking stick that you tore from that lich's cold, dead hands. And at what price you ask??? A mere 50 gp no matter how powerful the spell...mwahahaha!!!
Two words: Magic missile
Indeed...
Caffine makes for a wonderful substitute of love-Gubbaffet
Me likie ray of enfeeblement.
I have found a spell that I think is so crazy and unbalanced I thought I'd launch this thread to find out what other hidden munchkin spells are out there.
The spell I found? Power Word Pain. Source: Races of the Dragon. Take a look and tell me what you think.
Thats an OK spell but not likely to send play balance really out of whack. Essentially it does 1d6 damage every round to a single creature for lots of rounds.
However consider that most bad guys have a life expectancy of maybe 5 rounds and this spell is no longer that nasty - unless your the DM. Now in the DMs hands this spell is brutal; sure the PCs will kill the guy that castes it on them but the player is still going to be taking 1d6 for 4d4 rounds. Long after the encounter is done the player is going to be yelling to the cleric 'More Healing, More Healing!'. So as a DM this spell does not bother me much at all. really big bad guys are almost immune - little bad guys will be dead long before this spell really gets up to its potential and its only PCs that are truely screwed.
For the record the spells I've seen that have been the most devastating so far from the players are: Prismatic Spray and Entangle and for the DM Death Knell.
Speaking only of the core spells, my vote is Burning Hands, under optimal conditions (lots of baddies in the target area).
However, a well-placed Grease spell can potential deal 20d6 damage (falling damage, that is).
Protection from Evil makes you immune to a great deal of things, not the least of which is summoned monsters - AND, it gives bonuses to AC and saving throws.
The Entangle spell can completely destroy the carefully laid plans of an ambush - or cause an ambush to be spectacularily successful.
Finally, the Enlarge Person spell is at times underrated. I mentioned my reasons for this on another thread... here.
Yeah, five spells when you only asked for 1... but no one spell is truly the most powerful in every situation. With the exception of Wish, of course. ^^
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As a level 1 character I think the potential damage this spell can cause is crazy.
1-level 1 villians are unlikley to have more than 50 hp so they get the whole damage 4d4 rds at 1d6 damage. Now, dosen't a maximize spell maximize the duration and the damage? 6 damage for 16 straight rounds. If you take this as a quicken spell that is maximized, you cast as a swift action, then double move away from your opponent. Keep it up till it croaks. Put alot of thought into your main baddie DM's? forgetaboutit. Power word pain and your main boss is gone. The Pc wizard casts it and then just avoids the villian. Your boss monstrobe slowly dies while your whole gaming group cracks up laughing that the boss died so easily. I am using this spell untill my DM goes crazy.
I am using this spell until my DM goes crazy.
Not really smart on your part. If I was your DM, you'd start seeing a lot of illusionary foes and monsters with high spell resistance, while the baddie sneaks up behind you, invisible. Or just casts Power Word Pain on you. Also, a quickened, maximized 1st level spell would take up an 8th level spell slot... at CR 15 and above, there's not much with less than 100 hp, which is well beyond PW: Pain's cap.
If I were you, I would keep this spell in mind (assuming your DM even allows it, as it is a non-core spell), but I would always try to vary my attacks, so the enemies won't get a clear grasp of their best defenses.
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As the DM of my group I "learned" that charm person is the most powerful 1st-level spell in existence!
It happened a couple of times, that this spell kind of ruined some great story plots or encounters...
My players even accepted, that I never allow a specialist enchanter!
Anyway, this spell is far too powerfull for a 1st-level spell in my eyes!
True strike, if a melee class can get his hands of a potion of it. Doubly so in the hands of certain monsters. A mature adult white dragon (CR12) can cast it one round, and then flying charge the next round at any target up to 400ft away, pouring all +20 of the to-hit into damage using Power Attack for +40 damage. That's 2d8+52 damage, range 53-68, average 61. He can do this six times per day and demand a Massive Damage roll every time.
True strike, if a melee class can get his hands of a potion of it. Doubly so in the hands of certain monsters. A mature adult white dragon (CR12) can cast it one round, and then flying charge the next round at any target up to 400ft away, pouring all +20 of the to-hit into damage using Power Attack for +40 damage. That's 2d8+52 damage, range 53-68, average 61. He can do this six times per day and demand a Massive Damage roll every time.
Power Attack works off the base attack bonus. True Strike is an insight bonus. This combo does not work.
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True strike, if a melee class can get his hands of a potion of it. Doubly so in the hands of certain monsters. A mature adult white dragon (CR12) can cast it one round, and then flying charge the next round at any target up to 400ft away, pouring all +20 of the to-hit into damage using Power Attack for +40 damage. That's 2d8+52 damage, range 53-68, average 61. He can do this six times per day and demand a Massive Damage roll every time.
Actually Jonathan your Dragon attack wouldn't work. The PHB says that the number (damage bonus) may not exceed your base attack bonus, so the dragon in your example can only use power attack for an additional +21 damage which is still very nice.
I think it depends on the environment and the situation (which is not the question, of course. . . but I like to cheat). Using only the core 3.5 PH, I would say:
In any city/investigation adventure, charm person is the most powerful spell. You can circumvent many challeneges with this, and find out alot of information quickly.
In an outdoor setting, I think nothing beats entangle. Long range, wide area of effect, and fairly tough DCs, even for mid level characters.
In the static dungeon crawl, I think cure light wounds is the best all around spell. Any character with the ability to cast it can save time, money, and add survivability to most balanced encounters.
Azhrei: The combo does work. He takes a -20 penalty to his base attack, but negates that penalty with the +20 insight bonus from True Strike.
Lyle Stirk: The "number" referred to by the feat is the maximum number you can subtract from all attacks. "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus." Later in the description it says that a two-handed weapon gains two damage for every one you subtract - now to be fair here, I'm assuming that this also applies to natural attacks which add 1.5x Strength modifier. You might have to swap to using tail slap to get that, which is 2d6 instead of 2d8, but it's still pretty lethal.
If that doesn't work, +21 damage to one attack isn't half bad for a 1st level spell. My counter to this used to be a character with a potion of True Strike, a Blessed Scabbard (all threats against evil creatures are crits), Power Critical (the old version of this let you declare a threat 1/day), and the Weapon Master ability to increase the greataxe's crit multiplier to x4...
Ray of Enfeeblement is THE most powerful 1st level spell hands down. It's a ranged touch, deals 1d6 Strength damage +1 per level to a max of +5, and the effects last 1 minute per level.
You can empower it, maximize it, split it, twin it, and the real beauty is that you can CRITICAL hit with it.
A meer 3rd level wizard with this spell is the great equalizer, inflicting a minimum of 4 points of Strength damage to a maximum of 18 points of Strength damage on a critical hit.
Yes, Ray of Enfeeblement. Any arcane caster that I play gets that spell right away. Entangle is also pretty powerful, as is Enlarge Person, but Ray of Enfeeblement is the most powerful 1st level spell, IMO.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm surprised ray of enfeeblement is on the most powerful list. I've never run a caster packing the spell because I figured (1) the target I most want to effect is a melee combatant and (2) that's the target that is least likely to be effected due to his high fort save. Am I overestimating the frequency of the fort save being made or is there a better target that I'm ignoring? Is the tactic to use the spell to get a caster's strength down to 0?
As for Power Word Pain, I tend to agree with the collective wisdom above - the average bad guy doesn't last 4d4 rounds. He lasts 3-5 rounds. In that light, the spell does 3d6 - 5d6 damage. Definitely on the higher end of a 1st level spell, but not definitively broken. It does seem like a player wrecker if used by the DM. If your DM lets you play with it, please post and let us know how it went. I'd be really curious to hear how it works in play considering it looks so powerful in black and white.
As for my pick for most powerful, I can't really add anything to what's come before. Entangle is the most powerful first level spell at low levels; magic missile is the most powerful first level spell at high levels. I would go so far as to say that entangle should be 2nd level - it's on par with web. They both have a restriction on casting (entangle: outdoors; web: two support structures), they're hard to break free from, and they have the same basic effect. I don't think magic missile is too strong, I just wish that other spells did as good a job of scaling as it does.
I'm surprised ray of enfeeblement is on the most powerful list. I've never run a caster packing the spell because I figured (1) the target I most want to effect is a melee combatant and (2) that's the target that is least likely to be effected due to his high fort save. Am I overestimating the frequency of the fort save being made or is there a better target that I'm ignoring? Is the tactic to use the spell to get a caster's strength down to 0?
Ray of enfeeblement does not have a save. It is a range touch attack which works perfectly against a lumbering fighter in full plate.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ray of enfeeblement does not have a save. It is a range touch attack which works perfectly against a lumbering fighter in full plate.
igi
*cough* *sputter* No save you say...well then...that changes things...
Did it have a save in 3.0 or should did I just make up that whole fort save thing?
Ray of Enfeeblement is THE most powerful 1st level spell hands down. It's a ranged touch, deals 1d6 Strength damage +1 per level to a max of +5, and the effects last 1 minute per level.
You can empower it, maximize it, split it, twin it, and the real beauty is that you can CRITICAL hit with it.A meer 3rd level wizard with this spell is the great equalizer, inflicting a minimum of 4 points of Strength damage to a maximum of 18 points of Strength damage on a critical hit.
Actually, as it's a Strength penalty rather than Strength damage, you cannot critical hit with it, or split it, or twin it for any real effect. Empower and Maximize, sure. But that's its limitation.
I think I read somewhere that multiple castings of ray of enfeeblement don't stack, though. That is to say, if I enfeeble a 15-Strength fighter for 3, and hit him again and enfeeble him for 5, he's on 10. If I then enfeeble him for 4, it's wasted because the 5 is still better. I forget where I read that though.
It's actually pretty good if you metamagic it, so it's a good sorcerer choice. As a 10th level sorcerer using this maximized as a 4th level spell you can dole out a -11 Strength penalty, which will drop a gray render's Strength from 23 to 12. It's especially effective against a fighter NPC, who can see his Strength dropped from 16 to 5. He now has a Strength modifier of -3, and is heavily encumbered if he's carrying more than fifty pounds, and may collapse under the weight of his own equipment!
Actually, as it's a Strength penalty rather than Strength damage, you cannot critical hit with it, or split it, or twin it for any real effect. Empower and Maximize, sure. But that's its limitation.
Ummmm why cann't you critical with the ray? All other rays you can critical with.
Or split, why wouldn't you be able to split the ray? Two rays both doing nice strength penalty, mmmmm. But at the expense of a fireball .... is it really worth it?I agree that twinning is useless as multiple rays of enfeeble don't stack (forget where I read that, maybe in a Dragon).
igi
Check out pg. 175 of the PHB, 2nd paragraph of column 2 where we read "If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."
Each casting of the spell inflicts ability damage independantly of any other Strength damage currently in effect on the creature from previous castings of the same spell. However, the durations of each need to be tracked separately since they are separate spell effects. That is the only stacking rule for Ray of Enfeeblment. The ability damage inflicted on the target is taken from the creature's CURRENT Strength score.
And that is the beauty of this spell and why it is the MOST POWERFUL 1st level spell.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Check out pg. 175 of the PHB, 2nd paragraph of column 2 where we read "If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."
Each casting of the spell inflicts ability damage independantly of any other Strength damage currently in effect on the creature from previous castings of the same spell. However, the durations of each need to be tracked separately since they are separate spell effects. That is the only stacking rule for Ray of Enfeeblment. The ability damage inflicted on the target is taken from the creature's CURRENT Strength score.
And that is the beauty of this spell and why it is the MOST POWERFUL 1st level spell.
But the argument is that the spell does not do Strength damage. If it did, the damage wouldn't last for 1 min per level, it would last until healed. From the SRD:
Ray of Enfeeblement:
The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5).Ability Damage:
Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.Modifiers:
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus or worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.Modifier Types
Ability Modifier
The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score. Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions involving the corresponding abilities.
Because it is a penalty, not damage, it does not stack. That also means you can't crit with it. It's a wonky spell, there's no denying that.
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From what I could tell from these last posts I don't see anything indicating that you can't double the penalties induced from a critical hit on a ray of enfeeblement.
The penalties don't stack because they are from the same source, so in multiple castings only the highest one takes effect, but I don't see how that would affect anything in a crit. If you guys have a spot from the PBH where it doesn't count ability penalties as 'damage' in terms of critial hits throw it up here would you?
Thanks
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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From what I could tell from these last posts I don't see anything indicating that you can't double the penalties induced from a critical hit on a ray of enfeeblement.
The penalties don't stack because they are from the same source, so in multiple castings only the highest one takes effect, but I don't see how that would affect anything in a crit. If you guys have a spot from the PBH where it doesn't count ability penalties as 'damage' in terms of critial hits throw it up here would you?
Thanks
As quoted above:
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon.
Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
Damage is not penalties. Critical hits double damage.
I am sure the spell doesn't stack, as mentioned in the PH, and it definitely doesn't crit either. The Complete Arcane (pg. 86) makes a plainer distinction between spells that cause damage verses spells that create penalties. The section also specifically mentions that ray of enfeeblement cannot crit, as its example.
I don't think ray of enfeeblement is the best. It's good, but not the best. First of all, it doesn't do any actual damage, meaning that you foe is still alive and kicking to deal some pain in your direction. Second, it's a tough spell tactically because the ray requires a direct line of sight, and it's SHORT range. You put yourself into harm's way (within charging range at least) to cast it, and the target still has its hit points, (most, or all of) its mobility, and its full defensive capability. Considering your weak hit points, certain tactical conditions must be in place (or created by you. . . such as flying or casting stoneskin) for it to be worth the risk.
Also, if I wanted to burn a high level slot for a low level ray buffed out with metamagic, I'd go with scorching ray (or whatever they're calling it now). If you're a wizard and you're going to risk getting that close to a high-powered fighter-type's reach, you might as well try and kill him. That's a second level spell, so I guess I'm cheaing again. :)
Anyway, my two cents.
(On a side note, it CAN be very effective against other wizards and low-strength creatures. If you get anything down to 0 strength, it's completely incapacitated.)
(On a side note, it CAN be very effective against other wizards and low-strength creatures. If you get anything down to 0 strength, it's completely incapacitated.)
Unfortunately, it has a maximum reduction down to 1 Strength, so unless the creature is carrying more than 10 lbs (which I've noticed in any game I've been in that wizards, and especially sorcerers, rarely exceed) in a way they cannot simply drop (such as by wearing, say, studded leather), they still won't be dropped completely. Against a rogue or especially a bard, this spell can be really nasty.
I am sure the spell doesn't stack, as mentioned in the PH, and it definitely doesn't crit either. The Complete Arcane (pg. 86) makes a plainer distinction between spells that cause damage verses spells that create penalties. The section also specifically mentions that ray of enfeeblement cannot crit, as its example.
I don't think ray of enfeeblement is the best. It's good, but not the best. First of all, it doesn't do any actual damage, meaning that you foe is still alive and kicking to deal some pain in your direction. Second, it's a tough spell tactically because the ray requires a direct line of sight, and it's SHORT range. You put yourself into harm's way (within charging range at least) to cast it, and the target still has its hit points, (most, or all of) its mobility, and its full defensive capability. Considering your weak hit points, certain tactical conditions must be in place (or created by you. . . such as flying or casting stoneskin) for it to be worth the risk.
Also, if I wanted to burn a high level slot for a low level ray buffed out with metamagic, I'd go with scorching ray (or whatever they're calling it now). If you're a wizard and you're going to risk getting that close to a high-powered fighter-type's reach, you might as well try and kill him. That's a second level spell, so I guess I'm cheaing again. :)
Anyway, my two cents.
(On a side note, it CAN be very effective against other wizards and low-strength creatures. If you get anything down to 0 strength, it's completely incapacitated.)
Chris brings up many excellent points. To add to his side note, bringing a character's carrying capacity to a med load can reduce speed 30ft-20ft for light armor and 20ft-15ft for medium or heavy. A good way to prevent escape.
(On a side note, it CAN be very effective against other wizards and low-strength creatures. If you get anything down to 0 strength, it's completely incapacitated.)Unfortunately, it has a maximum reduction down to 1 Strength, so unless the creature is carrying more than 10 lbs (which I've noticed in any game I've been in that wizards, and especially sorcerers, rarely exceed) in a way they cannot simply drop (such as by wearing, say, studded leather), they still won't be dropped completely. Against a rogue or especially a bard, this spell can be really nasty.
Ah, yes. Good point.
Wow, this is a great thread; I am madly searching spells :)The ray seems like it could be powerful, but as someone in my gaming group always plays a paladin; if you use this much they will just cast restoration lesser; another level one spell to get rid of it; if you do this to your gm a lot then it is quite likely that smart enemies who may have gathered information about your tactics will take steps; I am truly surprized that no one mentioned the sleep spell; sure it has limit effectiveness at higher levels but for a level one wizard or sorcerer against low level living villians this equals a death spell. (sigh, no pic for me)
I am sure the spell doesn't stack, as mentioned in the PH, and it definitely doesn't crit either. The Complete Arcane (pg. 86) makes a plainer distinction between spells that cause damage verses spells that create penalties. The section also specifically mentions that ray of enfeeblement cannot crit, as its example.
I don't think ray of enfeeblement is the best. It's good, but not the best. First of all, it doesn't do any actual damage, meaning that you foe is still alive and kicking to deal some pain in your direction. Second, it's a tough spell tactically because the ray requires a direct line of sight, and it's SHORT range. You put yourself into harm's way (within charging range at least) to cast it, and the target still has its hit points, (most, or all of) its mobility, and its full defensive capability. Considering your weak hit points, certain tactical conditions must be in place (or created by you. . . such as flying or casting stoneskin) for it to be worth the risk.
Also, if I wanted to burn a high level slot for a low level ray buffed out with metamagic, I'd go with scorching ray (or whatever they're calling it now). If you're a wizard and you're going to risk getting that close to a high-powered fighter-type's reach, you might as well try and kill him. That's a second level spell, so I guess I'm cheaing again. :)
Anyway, my two cents.
(On a side note, it CAN be very effective against other wizards and low-strength creatures. If you get anything down to 0 strength, it's completely incapacitated.)
Hmmm. I hadn't read that. I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing it out, Chris. Now to enlighten my pesky Ray of Enfeeblment casting player characters that have been getting away with a lot...
However, Ray of Enfeeblement is still my choice, tying with magic missile.
From what I could tell from these last posts I don't see anything indicating that you can't double the penalties induced from a critical hit on a ray of enfeeblement.
The penalties don't stack because they are from the same source, so in multiple castings only the highest one takes effect, but I don't see how that would affect anything in a crit. If you guys have a spot from the PBH where it doesn't count ability penalties as 'damage' in terms of critial hits throw it up here would you?
Thanks
As quoted above:
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon.
Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
Damage is not penalties. Critical hits double damage.
And to you as well, Sebastian. Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't caught that.
Sticking to core rules, I'm not sure there is a "most powerful" 1st level spell. All of the spells mentioned above can be extremely useful in the right tactical situation, but I wouldn't ink any of them onto my character sheet, if I were a prepared caster (except maybe CLW if I was a druid and party lacks a cleric).
I'm also quite fond of color spray in low level play--it can instantly take several low-level combatants out of the picture for several rounds, and at least stuns higher level opponents who fail a will save for one round, giving time to escape, subdue remaining enemies, etc. It also is especially advantageous in an urban setting because it doesn't do any permanent harm to the victims, which prevents legal complications.
Charm is over-rated and overplayed as a combat spell, IMHO. I've seen lots of DMs treat it like a suggestion spell, which it is not. You have to make an opposed charisma check to convince the charmee to do anything he wouldn't ordinarily do--e.g. harm his allies--so at best it's good for convincing one fellow to sit out of the fight. While I don't think the DM can assess a circumstance modifier to the will save against charm, I'd certainly assess a penalty to the charmer if he's trying to convince the charmee to turn coat in the middle of battle, unless he was already treacherously inclined toward his original comrades.
In roleplaying situations, it is, of course a powerful, but not foolproof aid. If your PCs use it all the time for such things, make sure the bosses of the subverted minions make appropriate sense motive checks if they observe anything that might possibly give away the charmed state, and they might follow a successful check up with detect magic and an interrogation of the charmed NPC to find out who enchanted him.
Mage Armor, Shield, and Shield of Faith usually receive strong consideration for daily preparation depending on character class.
As for wands--CLW is a no brainer. Any character I play eligible to cast it obtains one as soon as possible. So maybe I agree that CLW is the most useful first level spell--I've played adventures for which ray of enfeeblement or magic missile, or any of the other spells mentioned above were marginally useful, but I've never played an adventure where no one in the party took enough damage to warrant the attentions of the party healer.
One last note--I don't have the book with Power Word Pain in it, but it sounds a bit powerful for a first level spell. Melf's acid arrow, a 2nd level spell, doesn't do much more damage, and lasts only 6 rounds at high level against a single target. Does PWP allow no will save and target one creature with less than a certain amount of hp, like its sister spells in the PH? And is the length of the effect scaled to the amount of hit points the creature has at time of casting, like the PH Power Word spells? Also, in game terms I doubt that pain per se ought to cause hp damage. Look at symbol of pain, a 5th level spell which puts a -4 on the victim's checks of all sorts due to "wracking pains." Finally, since when do wimpy 1st level mages get to title their spells with imposing sounding names like "power word"--a power word is something that should be reserved to powerful wizards and such who can squash 1st level characters like bugs--I want my PCs to quake in their boots when they hear bardic tales of it, not copy it from the spellbook of the kindly village hedge-wizard to whom they were apprenticed. So, without seeing it for myself, I must say that power word pain sounds like a munchkin spell to me.
While multiple castings of ray of enfeeblement don't stack. Try casting it in combo with ray of exhaustion. Man, that's one weakened fighter. Goes down like a sack o' potatoes.
In an evil campaign I ran, a twisted bastard of a sorcerer beat his father's captain of the guard (a family friend since his youth) to death after reducing him to a quivering mass with the above combo. It was a seriously messed up scene with the captain begging to be spared as the little sorcerer beat him savagely with steel fire poker...very unnerving.
Empowered or Maximized ray of enfeeblement is so sexy. Effectively turn a minotaur into a kobold with a lucky Empowered ray of enfeeblement, hot stuff. I play a cleric of Kord in one campaign and I HATE this spell. HATE it! Not only does it weaken me, it just shakes my faith in my god and my half-orcliness. My character gets so depressed after a battle where this gets cast on him, won't talk about it for hours. Usually has a break down. I love it. ;-)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And to you as well, Sebastian. Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't caught that.From what I could tell from these last posts I don't see anything indicating that you can't double the penalties induced from a critical hit on a ray of enfeeblement.
The penalties don't stack because they are from the same source, so in multiple castings only the highest one takes effect, but I don't see how that would affect anything in a crit. If you guys have a spot from the PBH where it doesn't count ability penalties as 'damage' in terms of critial hits throw it up here would you?
Thanks
As quoted above:
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon.
Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
Damage is not penalties. Critical hits double damage.
No need to thank me - I mostly just looked things up after Celiwyn and Jonathan Drain posted and then made excessive use of bolding.
Thank you for bringing up the spell. If we hadn't had this discussion, I would've made the exact same mistake and thinking it was ability damage and not ability penalties (not to mention that I would have been expecting saves to be made). It's still a solid spell, and much better than I had believed before this thread.
The ray seems like it could be powerful, but as someone in my gaming group always plays a paladin; if you use this much they will just cast restoration lesser; another level one spell to get rid of it;
The problems you run into here are a) Casting time - Lesser Restoration has a 3 round casting time - mostly a balance thing I suppose so you can't easily recover from ability damage mid-combat, and b) more importantly, because Ray of Enfeeblement causes a Strength penalty rather than Strength damage, lesser restoration (even regular restoration) cannot rid one of the affliction. Only a Greater Restoration (Clr 7, casting time 10 minutes) can "dispel magical effects penalizing the creature's ability scores." Dispel Magic is a (much) faster way to go, targeted on the Ray of Enfeeblement effect.
I am truly surprized that no one mentioned the sleep spell; sure it has limit effectiveness at higher levels but for a level one wizard or sorcerer against low level living villians this equals a death spell. (sigh, no pic for me)
Indeed, sleep is really handy at low levels. Especially if you're tag-teaming with a bard who has just cast lullaby. Entangle has a similar effect, sort of, but I like it more because it seems more versatile (especially when you cast it in an area with, say, heavy briars. ^^
Wow, this is a great thread; I am madly searching spells :)The ray seems like it could be powerful, but as someone in my gaming group always plays a paladin; if you use this much they will just cast restoration lesser; another level one spell to get rid of it; if you do this to your gm a lot then it is quite likely that smart enemies who may have gathered information about your tactics will take steps; I am truly surprized that no one mentioned the sleep spell; sure it has limit effectiveness at higher levels but for a level one wizard or sorcerer against low level living villians this equals a death spell. (sigh, no pic for me)
Sleep is really only useful at first. After that your likely to be facing 5 or more HD worth of opponents. At this point its OK but the bad guys can be awakened by slaps, kicks etc. Essentially the bad guys that are still standing are going to loose some actions kicking their drowsy compatriots after which the sleepy heads will stand up again. t also targets the lowest HD guys first - so always the lackys and cannon fodder.
Ray of enfeeblement doesnt crit because it is a penalty and not Ability damage?
This is a prime example of why I have major issues with D&D. I can see now that I need to hire a Lawyer to run our game - I will humbly step aside.
How much do you want to bet that people WERE critically hitting with Ray of Enfeeblements (legally) until WoTC caught wind of how unbalancing the spell became? Thus its spelled out in one of their expanded books as exception #132 to the rule.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ray of enfeeblement doesnt crit because it is a penalty and not Ability damage?
This is a prime example of why I have major issues with D&D. I can see now that I need to hire a Lawyer to run our game - I will humbly step aside.
How much do you want to bet that people WERE critically hitting with Ray of Enfeeblements (legally) until WoTC caught wind of how unbalancing the spell became? Thus its spelled out in one of their expanded books as exception #132 to the rule.
I don't think it's the critical hit aspect that caused the change so much as the ability damage healing process. It's weird to have a spell cause ability damage and then have that damage be healed back by the effect ending. It's like a spell doing 20 points of hp damage and then, at the end of a minute, returning those hp.
It is a pain how obscure the ruling is. The stuff I quoted above isn't even entirely on point because the definition of modifiers deals with them effecting dice rolls, and the ability penalty caused by RoE doesn't actually effect a dice roll. It's very much a clever (and non-intuitive) loophole trick.
I blame the fact that spells received the least clean-up during the transition from 2e to 3e. The balance is between keeping spells at the same level and having them work within the rules.
If you guys thought that Ray of enfeeblement was skewed before then try this on for size.
Ray of enfeeblement DOES critical like any other ray. However it does not drain twice the strength. Instead on a critical the ray deals a d6 of negative energy damage on top of the strength penalty. Likewise a rouge can gain a sneak attack with the ray and the bonus dice damage off his sneak attack are dealt in negative energy damage. For example a 5th lvl rouge fires a 2nd CL ray from his wand and gets a sneak attack on a gnoll. 1d6+1 str damage and 3d6 negative energy damage. I'm shure this is in a book somewhere but you will have to site Saern for the actual source.
I'm going to attack this question from a different direction. What is the most powerful spell at first level? How about Identify? It is after all the spell needed to put all magical items into play, especially at low levels. A Staff of the Magi doesn't mean a thing if it's not Identified.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Azhrei: The combo does work. He takes a -20 penalty to his base attack, but negates that penalty with the +20 insight bonus from True Strike.
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now to be fair here, I'm assuming that this also applies to natural attacks which add 1.5x Strength modifier.
All natural weapons are considered light weapons, regardless of how much bonus damage they get from Str. Under normal conditions, this would mean no bonus at all from Power Attack, but there is a specific exemption for natural weapons in the feat - "You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks)", so they add +1 to damage per -1 to hit.
Director of Narrative
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I'm going to attack this question from a different direction. What is the most powerful spell at first level? How about Identify? It is after all the spell needed to put all magical items into play, especially at low levels. A Staff of the Magi doesn't mean a thing if it's not Identified.
I'm with you on that one. And for divine casters the top spell would have to be CLW.