Be honest guys. If this were an Eberron or Forgottem Realms campaign and Erik Mona was submitting Greyhawk conversion notes, wouldn't you work a little faster to get these online?
Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist, but I'm starting to suspect that the vast majority of the Dungeon staff secrety has it out for Eberron & FR. Why do you have to publish a PDF for the conversion notes? Why can't it just be a web article in html? How long could it possibly take to get WotC approval on these notes? Get them and throw them on a section of your site. Why do we need to wait for a graphic designer for these?
Considering how much material there is to trawl through and fact-check for the Forgotten Realms compared to Greyhawk, I'm not surprised it's taking this long. This undoubtedly involves legal matters as well because there are currently novels, supplements and other merchandise being developed for FR as we speak, and the staff of Dungeon wouldn't necessarily know what those are. There's nothing going on with Greyhawk, so the process is infinitely faster.
putting out a web article woudln't be any faster than making a pdf. Creating a pdf takes about 10 seconds. I would agree with Krypter's assesment.
The pdf includes layout design and formatting the maps and pictures properly, something that takes much more time than posting a web article. Just look at the time involved in just providing pdfs with different resolutions; we've already had to wait several days just for that!
They have had the conversion notes for several months. They have said in the past that it only takes a few days to get WotC approval.
The delays have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with fact checking or WotC approvals. Creating the pdf requires working together with the art department and the editors, something that takes a block of time and scheduling. Why do we need to have these bundled together? Please post the conversion notes separately on the web, and bundle them later when you have time to get the maps and art formatted properly.
Please post the conversion notes separately on the web, and bundle them later when you have time to get the maps and art formatted properly.
Getting on the staff's back about bonus material isn't my style, however if getting them laid out for the PDF really is the hold up here, I'd agree releasing them on the boards or elsewhere first is a great idea.
While the guys at Dungeon are more than able to stand up for themselves, I think some poorly-informed accusations are starting to fly.
If you think they can stop working at 4:55 and crank out your supplements in the five minutes before they head home for a beer, you need to get a real job before posting again.
Forgive my tone, but none of us are in a position to say what they are (or aren't) capable or permitted to do.
Chill out -- you'll get your notes.
Jack
I do feel that I should defend some of the staffers at Paizo as well. We know there have been some staffing hiccups, and if it comes down to putting out the magazine or putting out the online supplements (which oddly enough don't pay anyone's mortgages, car payments, or grocery bills at Paizo), then the supplements have to come last.
And while I know that Erik is a Greyhawk fanatic, I don't think we Forgotten Realms fans have had such a ally as Erik for editor in quite a while, so I'll gladly wait for my FR conversions for a while if he is busy working on how to fit more FR articles in to get me and my Faerun-loving ilk to buy more magazines.
Forgive my tone, but none of us are in a position to say what they are (or aren't) capable or permitted to do.
I'm referring to a post by James Jacobs that said it takes about a full day of work to get the entire pdf done, and it involves pulling in several departments together.
I'd like to know why they don't just put the conversion notes on the web. We can scan the maps and art handouts, but we can't get the conversion notes.
If getting the maps and handouts properly formatted has nothing to do with the delay then I would very much like to see someone reply confirming this. I suspect this isn't the case. One of the "reasons" for the delays I hear quoted so often is that they lost one of their graphic guys. What does this have to do with conversion notes? They were turned in months ago, all you have to do is edit them and send them to WotC for approval. I cannot see how this would take three months to do.
I'm sure if they were Greyhawk conversion notes they would not only be posted immediately after WotC approval, they would probably receive front page attention, references in the magazine's editorial section, and even quoted praise in scale mail.
My understanding from multiple posts is that the hold up is in getting the finished adventures to the people writing the conversion notes. Then them fitting writing them into their very busy schedule, with some of them having 'regular jobs' on top of game design.
If they would have chosen just any schmuck like say me or you to write them then it would be pretty quick but not nearly as interesting, as it is they have two very busy and very knowledgeable people with multiple writing credits doing the conversions, so it is taking a little bit longer. If you don't recognize what a godsend it is to have Eric and Keith doing the conversions, probably for very little money and within busy schedules then I guess complain away.
My understanding from multiple posts is that the hold up is in getting the finished adventures to the people writing the conversion notes.
Where did you get that from? Name one post that says anything like that. I've been following the AoW boards since they came up, and I've never read anything like that. Did you just make it up? There was a post from Erik when one of the notes came out (I think it was 126) saying he had the notes and would post them on the boards.
I don't believe the notes have anything to do the delays. It's the development of the pdf that's the hangup. Why else would they continue to blame it on the loss of their graphic designer?
The fact that Paizo has been quiet regarding this thread speaks volumes. It would be awesome if they made an announcement that they're going to start posting the conversion notes before the full pdf.
...The fact that Paizo has been quiet regarding this thread speaks volumes....
Yes -- it says they have the sense to keep out of conversations like this one.
The thread started with the implication that the staff of Dungeon is dishonest, and has rarely risen above that level. If I were a bit smarter or wiser, I would have stayed out of this, too.
Regards all,
Jack
Creative Director
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When threads like this pop up, we at Paizo do try to let them resolve on their own, because in my experience, there's usually little we can say to defuse the situation. Nonetheless, I'll give it a try.
Trust me, we're doing our best to get the conversion notes out for the Age of Worms, and believe it or not, there IS no sinister conspiracy to bury the notes just to spite players who are using the campaign in FR or Eberron.
Conversion notes for a particular adventure are the LAST thing that happens. It's ridiculous to give Eric or Keith a half-edited adventure when parts of the adventure can (and often do) change, so we generally wait until the adventure is locked down before we send them the text to write their conversions. Sometimes they're busy and can't get the conversion notes to us on time. More often, WE'RE busy and can't get on them the instant they come in.
Accusatory and inflamatory messageboard posts will not speed the process up.
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I just found a picture of James Jacobs on the web...
HE'S THE SMOKING MAN OF THE X-FILES!!!
It is a conspiracy!
((Make Sense Motive checks, DC of 0))
When something is lacking that you need, it's an open invitation to run with the "conversion" as you see fit. Make the game your own and most of all, have fun with it.
Conversion notes for a particular adventure are the LAST thing that happens.
Then why did it take you so long to post the conversion notes after Erik Mona said he had them ready to post online?
And Mr. Jacobs, can you honestly say that you just recently (within the last month) received the conversion notes for 129 & 130?
I mean, at the rate the notes come out Keith and Eric could read the magazine from the STORE SHELF, have a month to write something up, and send it off and we'd still have to wait a month before they're posted online.
I don't think this post is implying dishonesty. (When I said "Be honest guys", meant don't beat around the bush.) I just feel that if this were a Greyhawk conversion then the staff wouldn't keep it on the back burner for so long.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm sure if they were Greyhawk conversion notes they would not only be posted immediately after WotC approval, they would probably receive front page attention, references in the magazine's editorial section, and even quoted praise in scale mail.
That's just insane. We get these things out as soon as humanly possible, although of course putting out the actual magazines take precedence.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with campaign setting. Take a look at "Faiths & Pantheons" some time, and you'll see that I'm enough of a fan of the Forgotten Realms to co-write a hardcover about it.
We'll continue to release the conversion appendices as we've been releasing them (though I hope they'll appear faster now that the process has gotten back on track). We don't release articles in raw form as message board posts, and we won't release conversion appendices that way either.
When the campaign is finished, we will compile all of the conversion notes, maps, and art for the Adventure Path into a single PDF to make it handier for players.
Again, the contention that there is some kind of conspiracy against FR or Eberron is not supported by the facts. For what it's worth, there _was_ a Greyhawk conversion appendix in "Age of Worms Overload." Ask around to see if that sped up the process on that PDF. :)
--Erik
For what it's worth, there _was_ a Greyhawk conversion appendix in "Age of Worms Overload."
The Overload conversion notes? The blurb that say it takes a "minimum amount of effort" to convert, because the backdrop of the Age of Worms IS in Greyhawk?
I'm not suggesting you post articles in raw form on the message boards. (You once said you would do this though.) I just think it would be faster to edit them and post them as web articles so you don't need to rely on someone to get the pdf layout and convert the artwork and maps from the magazine.
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Creative Director
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And Mr. Jacobs, can you honestly say that you just recently (within the last month) received the conversion notes for 129 & 130?
No, but I can honestly say that I didn't get a chance to look at them until the last half of January. The last few months have been exceptionally busy here, and when you're working 6+ days a week for multiple months to keep the magazine on schedule (due to holidays and staffing problems), some things get set aside. Like conversion notes and replys to adventure proposals.
No, but I can honestly say that I didn't get a chance to look at them until the last half of January.
Based on your earlier posts, my guess is that the process of compiling the PDF requires the attention of several people. When you say you didn't have a chance to look at them, is it because when you look at them you have to set aside enough time to edit and review the entire pdf layout process?
Why can't we have the conversion notes posted online as a web article? If you've had the notes since last November (or earlier) I would think it would be easier to just edit the notes than it would be to compile a full supplement.
No, but I can honestly say that I didn't get a chance to look at them until the last half of January.Based on your earlier posts, my guess is that the process of compiling the PDF requires the attention of several people. When you say you didn't have a chance to look at them, is it because when you look at them you have to set aside enough time to edit and review the entire pdf layout process?
Why can't we have the conversion notes posted online as a web article? If you've had the notes since last November (or earlier) I would think it would be easier to just edit the notes than it would be to compile a full supplement.
Would you like some cheese with that wine? What is your deal? I'm playing Age of Worms in a non-standard D&D world. Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved which by the way blows anything from Forgotten Realms or Eberron out of the water.
The point is no one is providing me with conversion notes. Why not take the initiative and do some work for yourself. I have do everything myself. All it takes is a little imagination or do you need someone to hold your hand at all times??
Would you like some cheese with that wine? What is your deal? I'm playing Age of Worms in a non-standard D&D world. Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved which by the way blows anything from Forgotten Realms or Eberron out of the water.
The point is no one is providing me with conversion notes. Why not take the initiative and do some work for yourself. I have do everything myself. All it takes is a little imagination or do you need someone to hold your hand at all times??
So you're saying the delays are OK?
I think even Paizo would agree that they do not want to see these delays.
Your post basically says the conversion notes have no value. I find them not only incredibly useful for my campaign but also very entertaining. It's a hobby product after all, and I really enjoy the notes. If it were Gary Gygax writing them, I'm sure they wouldn't be put on the back burner. Keith Baker's material doesn't come by every day, so it's a real treat to see it in any form, even if it's relagated to an obscure web supplement that's months behind the campaign material it's connected with.
Absolutely, doing my own conversions of Dungeon material for my campaign is one of my favorite D&D related things. Quite honestly, if I was running AoW, I'd just do that as opposed to waiting for someone else to do it.
Exactly. You're not running AoW.
Ideally people would find the most fun if they designed their own campaign world and adventures. Why do we even need Dungeon?
The notes are so valuable to me I would gladly purchase them. Not only did I pick up a subscription because of them, I would also pay for overnight shipping instead of bulk if I could. If an Age of Worms book comes out I will purchase it if the conversion notes are included. The notes are a great product and I'd love to see them sooner.
Would you like some cheese with that wine? What is your deal? I'm playing Age of Worms in a non-standard D&D world. Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved which by the way blows anything from Forgotten Realms or Eberron out of the water.
The point is no one is providing me with conversion notes. Why not take the initiative and do some work for yourself. I have do everything myself. All it takes is a little imagination or do you need someone to hold your hand at all times??
So you're saying the delays are OK?
I think even Paizo would agree that they do not want to see these delays.
Your post basically says the conversion notes have no value. I find them not only incredibly useful for my campaign but also very entertaining. It's a hobby product after all, and I really enjoy the notes. If it were Gary Gygax writing them, I'm sure they wouldn't be put on the back burner. Keith Baker's material doesn't come by every day, so it's a real treat to see it in any form, even if it's relagated to an obscure web supplement that's months behind the campaign material it's connected with.
No, I'm saying your lazy and a whinner. You remind me of that girl from the original Charle and the Chocolate factory who always whinned that her needs were more important then others and sang the little song saying that she wants it now!!!
If it's a real treat for you to read Keith Baker's stuff then be patient with the paizo staff.
So you're saying the delays are OK?
I think even Paizo would agree that they do not want to see these delays.
Your post basically says the conversion notes have no value. I find them not only incredibly useful for my campaign but also very entertaining. It's a hobby product after all, and I really enjoy the notes. If it were Gary Gygax writing them, I'm sure they wouldn't be put on the back burner. Keith Baker's material doesn't come by every day, so it's a real treat to see it in any form, even if it's relagated to an obscure web supplement that's months behind the campaign material it's connected with.
Dude. Chill.
When threads like this pop up, we at Paizo do try to let them resolve on their own, because in my experience, there's usually little we can say to defuse the situation. Nonetheless, I'll give it a try...
Looks like James' first instinct was right :/
It was a good try, though.
Jack
Looks like James' first instinct was right :/
That's the conventional wisdom for many companies, but Paizo staff are well known for their frequent message board appearances on any topic related to their products. It's one of the things that makes them so great; they appear to be very passionate about their work.
I have never seen a thread on these boards or on EN World where Paizo did not respond to defend (or promote) themselves. Ever. If you can find one please post a link. That's why I found it odd that they waited a few days on this one.
That's why I found it odd that they waited a few days on this one.If by "a few days" you mean "less than two days," then I agree. There really is a conspiracy afoot.
--Erik
OK, OK, perhaps I exaggerated a little bit. However, James did reply within 10 minutes after I said "their silence speaks volumes" to say "When threads like this pop up, we at Paizo do try to let them resolve on their own, because in my experience, there's usually little we can say to defuse the situation. " Yeah, riiiighhht......
Anyway, I would really like to know why Paizo waits to bundle everything up into a pdf when you could post the notes like WotC does into Web Enhancements. It seems like it would be much easier to do.
That's why I found it odd that they waited a few days on this one.If by "a few days" you mean "less than two days," then I agree. There really is a conspiracy afoot.
--Erik
OK, OK, perhaps I exaggerated a little bit. However, James did reply within 10 minutes after I said "their silence speaks volumes" to say "When threads like this pop up, we at Paizo do try to let them resolve on their own, because in my experience, there's usually little we can say to defuse the situation. " Yeah, riiiighhht......
Anyway, I would really like to know why Paizo waits to bundle everything up into a pdf when you could post the notes like WotC does into Web Enhancements. It seems like it would be much easier to do.
Did you ever think that maybe if you quit crying so much and let them do their job they might be done with it by now?
Instead they have to answer messages like yours all day.
That's why I found it odd that they waited a few days on this one.
Man you need to relax a bit. Your complaining that your free stuff isn't getting here fast enough. I'm sure paizo's products taht bring in revenue (like magazines) take precedence over free web enhancements.
Let me tell you, i work for a magazine publishing company that's no where near as big as Paizo, would tackle a project like this. We put an interactive map on our website last week and it took the collaberation of 3 departments, all who have their own schedules and projects.
Instead of complaining about it, just wait patiently like everyone else or do your own conversion if you need it that bad.
One unfortunate attribute of posting on a message board is that it is often difficult to determine the proper tone of a poster's remarks. In the past I've made remarks that I thought were clever, thoughtful, and/or well thought out but were seen as slightly offensive or outright inflamatory.
I started this post this way because when I read this thread just now, I thought that it would be about running Age of Worms in Greyhawk (I haven't noticed this thread before just now). Instead, it's a topic that seemed to be just another thread complaining about the length of time it takes to get the web supplements.
When I read it again, I think that Takasi was simply asking for the conversion notes in html format, hoping that would be quicker than waiting for a complete and properly formated PDF document. His initial (inferred) tone plus the title of the thread (which is misleading to the topic in the thread) seems to have caused a bit of "accusatory and inflamatory messageboard posts" that didn't do justice to the intent that I believe Takasi had.
Now, having said all that (and thank you if you actually read all of that... I get really long-winded at times), I'd like to say that I prefer the well-formated PDF over the html format that WotC uses on their message boards.
You see, I like things to be "aesthetically pleasing" (to me), and I end up trying to format the WotC html articles in a word document, which takes me much more time than I prefer to use. I used to print up the WotC documents as is, but I didn't like the way they printed up, often with a table cut in half or the last one or two lines on a separate page.
There was at least one person that agreed that having an html article available (if it made it faster than the PDF process), so I can see that the idea has merit.
Lessons Learned:
Takasi (and I mean no disrespect), if you would have titled the thread "Request for HTML articles" and simply asked "Erik, would it be possible to get the conversion notes in html format prior to the PDF web enhancement," you probably would have had a quicker decisive answer. As it was, it took several posts until it became clear what you were asking for.
Why not take the initiative and do some work for yourself.
I can't speak for Takasi, but having the "official" conversion notes well ahead of time allows the DM to keep the big picture in mind. While it is entirely possible for anyone of us to make the conversions on our own, we may lose the "shared experience" that running the AP as presented in the conversion notes may provide.
As for me, I'm running AoW in Greyhawk... a setting that I have always enjoyed but haven't used in ten years (that's another long story). So, I'd actually love to have more Greyhawk conversion notes than what was in the Overload, and I would want them sooner than later.
It's been pointed out before that the conversion notes made the top 10 list of lessons learned (number 5, actually), so all of this feedback *is* being listened to and worked on for the next AP.
Because that's the way we've determined it best fits into our workflow.
And it's not going to change for the last three installments. I'll consider changing the format for the next Adventure Path, but for now, what you see is what you get, warts and all.
--Erik
Please consider this, and thank you very much for responding to my post.
And please, please, please do not cut the conversion notes from the next AP. Please do not shorten them.
Even if you do like Greyhawk better.
About greyhawk, I dont think these adventures are flavoured towards greyhawk as much as you might think. I am trying to give my players the feel of adventuring in GH and it is still some work to do... In the end AOW are modules that are very generic and you will have to do work to fit them into your campaign. I sometimes wish they had more Greyhawk conversion notes! :)
Dang didn't you hear, FRs getting the boot from Wizards, they already sold it off, so why if your Paizo would you rush out conversions for a dead game world when the future is GreyHawk.
:)
Even if you do like Greyhawk better.
(Rolls on wandering monster table ..)
"Dammit, a troll *again*?"
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Dang didn't you hear, FRs getting the boot from Wizards, they already sold it off, so why if your Paizo would you rush out conversions for a dead game world when the future is GreyHawk.
Please, someone tell me that was a troll. I'm a long-time player and supporter of Greyahwk, but that would be a true kick in the teeth to all of the loyal FR players out there.
I'm no troll, if you had read the rest of the post and followed the logic to its natural conclusion you might conclude that in fact the incorrect info I posted earlier might be correct however.
It's clear from all of the Dungeon staff's posts here and elsewhere that, although they may have personal preferences for one setting or another, the thing they are most passionate about at this point is the success of the magazine, and therefore, they are passionate about pleasing as many customers of the magazine as possible. That is why I'm certain they get the conversions done as soon as they possibly can. But they have other priorities they have to meet, such as publishing the magazine every month.
My suggestion to those who want to have all of the conversion notes in hand first is to wait until the entire Adventure Path is published before running it. That is what I'm doing, even though its not even for that reason. Rather, its because I want the benefit of having reviewed the entire path, down to the last adventure, so I can run the whole thing with full understanding of its whole course.
i usually run a FR campaign but when the AP came along i decided that a simple aproach would probably be better. ive spent hours planning campaigns to 15th lvl only to have it stall around 7th. i thought using greyhawk would be simpler but must admit that the conversion notes didnt give me enough info for the setting as a whole but after tracking down my 4 piece map from dungeon and a quick download of the adventure begins that i think i have all i need to enjoy the whole adventure path for the year to come. :)