Aaron Bitman wrote:
You say that Harper Lee was no Mark Twain...
I went through an American Civil War and abolitionist phase and read a lot about John Brown, Harriet Tubman, etc. etc. There's an interesting book called Army Life in a Black Regiment or something like that by Col. Thomas Wentworth Higginson.
Higginson was an abolitionist who had funded John Brown during the Bleeding Kansas days and a bunch of other stuff. When the war came, he volunteered and ended up in command of the 1st or 2nd South Carolina Volunteers who were a regiment (? platoon? I have little understanding of the armed forces) of freed slaves. They kind of show up in the movie Glory, but the officer depicted is in no way an accurate portrayal of Col. TWH.
Anyway, this guy was demonstrably non-racist: throughout his life, he'd risked his reputation, his freedom, his business and now his life fighting for abolition. But when you read Army Life, hoo boy! Nobody in today's public life could get away with a quarter of the amount of racist patronizing that goes on in that book.
So what does this prove? That everyone before us was racist? Well, maybe. But it makes you wonder what attitudes and assumptions that we regard as commonplace wisdom that 100 years from now they'll look at with shock or smugness as ignorance and prejudice.
But it makes you wonder what attitudes and assumptions that we regard as commonplace wisdom that 100 years from now they'll look at with shock or smugness as ignorance and prejudice.
Oh, I have no doubt on that score. I often hear someone say "People used to THINK thus-and-so. But now we KNOW such-and-such." (Emphasis mine.) I doubt that we KNOW anything. Undoubtedly, people in the future will laugh at, or look contemptously at, what we "know."
EDIT: And another thing, which is important in considering the history of civil rights in the US: Abolition of slavery is one thing. Actual racial equality is something else.
I guess I'd better say something else, for fear of starting a flamewar: I'm not saying that my interpretation of To Kill A Mockingbird, or Huckleberry Finn, or any other work, is "right," nor that anyone else's is "wrong." In fact, my interpretation hardly ever matches the most popular one among readers of a given book. If anything, I would give my own opinion LESS weight, for that reason.
(Seriously, I once got into a debate elsewhere on these boards, about the interpretation of certain books. I was enjoying the debate, until one of the other people said "Well, I certainly didn't want to get into a fight about it. If I've expressed myself poorly, or seemed to have asserted any solid opinion on the matter one way or the other, or if my tone came across as superior or condescending, I apologize." I felt deflated. So if Samnell, or anyone else, doesn't enjoy talking about this book, or thinks that I'm coming across as superior or condescending, then I'll shut up about it.)
The big difference between the two stories are that the realm of hades has pleasant places in Virgil for the heroes and dead who earned a reward; but in Dante, Hell is for punishment only. [ It is quite interesting that both meet so many people they know in Hell; hehe; ah; the gate to hell is wide and its jaws endlessly hungery. Each is a critique on their societies values and judgements.
Virgil of course is writing the Epic of the Birth of Rome, Dante is not so lofty as he is mostly writing a jibe at corruption of his time; but Dante paves the work for Milton's Paradise lost; which if read should really not be read until you have AT LEAST read the Aeneid and the Divine commedy; as Milton refers to many other past literary works in PL and a reader would miss it.
It always bothered me that Dante meets so many people he knew throughout the Divine Comedy. All the dead people in the world, and all he ever meets are Italians?
In fact, in all the epics it seems like it's real easy to get around in the world of the dead. You can't go five feet without running into your dad, or your comrade, or the kid across the street who bullied you when you were five.
And I don't know about Dante's scope being less lofty than The Aeneid. He's mapping out medieval Christendom's planar landscape with more details than Gary Gygax ever did. (Who wrote the first Manual of the Planes?)
And finally about Milton: Great stuff. "Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven," indeed.
Jeff Grubb was cribbing Dante and Milton like mad.
I read Ambrose Bierce's Haita the Shepherd today...what the heck!? This is where Hastur comes from? Totally threw me a curve ball.
What makes Mark Twain so worth reading is not that he fits our current model of social justice but that he was extremely influential during the period in which he wrote. Much like Dicken's his value is as much about the important social movements of his era as it is about the stories in the books themselves.
King's Dragon, Crown of Stars book 1
Finished this one - fabulous book. Looking for the sequel. Rererereading The Arabian Nights in the meantime. Just finished the third calender's tale. Lined up next - Prince of Dogs, if I can find it, and if not, either Seeds of Betrayal or Shadow Gate.
What makes Mark Twain so worth reading is not that he fits our current model of social justice but that he was extremely influential during the period in which he wrote. Much like Dicken's his value is as much about the important social movements of his era as it is about the stories in the books themselves.
Yes and no. The first point of your sentence is obviously true. But I don't know how influential he really was (unless you're talking just about within the world of literature). I mean, yeah, he sold a lot of books and lots of people went to hear him speak, but I don't recall ever reading about how anything he wrote or said made any real effect on the doings of his time. For example, I believe he was a founding member of the Anti-Imperialist League and wrote some really damning critiques of America in the Philippines. But his words were usually laughed at and ignored (when they were funny) or just ignored (when they were not).
Also, I think you're selling Twain and Dickens a little short in the second sentence (and I don't even consider myself a huge fan). They were both masters of the art form that was the nineteenth-century novel. Or to put it another way, give them an idea for a humorous or melodramatic story with a lot of leeway for coincidences and mistaken identity and they could write the s!&* out of it.
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I have finished Iain M. Banks "Matter". While I love Banks' novels this one was a bit of a downer, because in the middle act it becomes very slow and nearly boring (a phenomenon I have not encountered in all the other Iain M. Banks novels).
Nevertheless I can give a good recommendation for the book as the framing acts are really well done and in hindsight many of the parts of the slow middle act are necessary. The end is surprising and comes faster than you'd expect. While this books may be one of the worst novels by Banks it is still way above most of the other books out there.
But if you want to start reading Banks' novels, pick up "Consider Phlebas" and "Player of Games".
After posting a bunch of times on this thread, I suppose I ought to answer the question.
I'm currently reading The Elvenbane, by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. I'm over 300 pages into it, and it's... all right. I don't plan to pursue the other books of the trilogy.
I'm also re-reading the classic Foundation trilogy by Isaac Asimov, again. I'm currently on the second volume of that trilogy, Foundation and Empire. I have named that trilogy the greatest science fiction epic ever, and would highly recommend the first volume of that series (simply titled "Foundation.")
You know, I don't know why I'm writing this. I'm not expecting to win this debate.
I didn't know we were having a debate. I considered my post a straightforward response to a reasonable request. :)
I guess I just wanted to make the point that there's more than one way to interpret a book.
Well yeah, obviously. :)
I'm reading Julie E. Czerneda's A Thousand Words for Stranger. Not bad but the characters often seem to act in completely arbitrary manners that don't seem to be adequately resolved.
Finished this and have, somewhat, changed my opinion.
The problem with the characters turns out to be part and parcel of a really cool plot twist that takes place 3/4's pf the way through the book.
Unfortunately the authors failings still mar this. Essentially what we have is a somewhat entertaining space opera that turns out not to be that at all because of this awesome twist deep in the book. In essence Space Opera is a shell over something cool and deeper...but the author is not actually capable of pulling this off. To make it work the whole style and delivery had to change into something much more serous for the final parts of the book and she simply is not capable of doing that. The result is that 'space opera' remains the style of delivery even after the awesome plot twist. Its really unfortunate because, if it had been handled a little better, she had a shot at a novel that was at least in the same ball park as Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game.
Really the kind of book where you end up asking yourself "where the f%#& was the editor"? With some help, direction and brutal critique this could have been a Hugo or Nebula award winner. It frustrates me that a novel could be so close and yet so far.
Finished up the following over the past couple of days:
Chalmers Johnson--Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire. A very good read, chock full of interesting 20th century history. Most of it involves the United States and its relations with East Asian nations (Japan, the Koreas, China, Indonesia) but also ranges out to deal with stuff like the Hungarian Uprising of 1956.
Not just history, though. For example, he takes a swipe at American economic theory over the past fifty years and points to how the political strategy of rebuilding postwar Japan ended up costing the U.S. its manufacturing base.
Good book, highly recommended.
Chris Hedges--War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning. Meh. War sucks, I know, and I've been a lifelong critic of militarism, so I didn't learn much from this book.
Michael Moorcock--The Mad God's Amulet. This book is the shiznit. Three adventures in one book packed with inventive monsters, imaginative settings and, in Huilliam D'Averc, one of my favorite fantasy anti-heroes. The whole macguffin about the Runestaff guiding Hawkmoon's destiny may be one of the most ham-handed DM plot devices I've ever seen, but it's not that intrusive. Highly recommended!
Huilliam D'Averc, one of my favorite fantasy anti-heroes.
+1,000,000
I am reading Tehanu by Ursala K. Le Guin which iw nomber four in the Earthsea set :) Interesting way to do magick too.
Just finished A Game of Thrones and am now on A Clash of Kings. Great book and it's follow up is turning out to be right up there with the first.
The next one (Storm of Swords) is even better.
The next one (Storm of Swords) is even better.
If only he would write the rest of the series, but we all know there won't be any more. Martin's out of oomph; the series is dead in the water.
If only he would write the rest of the series, but we all know there won't be any more. Martin's out of oomph; the series is dead in the water.
I think we will see A Dance with Dragons but that's it. I sure hope it's good after the wait and the mediocrity of A Feast For Crows.
If only he would write the rest of the series, but we all know there won't be any more. Martin's out of oomph; the series is dead in the water.I think we will see A Dance with Dragons but that's it. I sure hope it's good after the wait and the mediocrity of A Feast For Crows.
I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed A Feast For Crows (not as much as the first three, but it wasn't a huge drop off for me). And if his blog is any indication, he's close to being done with volume 5, and has excised a great deal of material to be used for volume 6.
I am optimistic, possibly naive and blinded by desire, but optimistic. Maybe if the HBO series takes off it will impose deadlines of a sort for the last two books.
I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed A Feast For Crows (not as much as the first three, but it wasn't a huge drop off for me). And if his blog is any indication, he's close to being done with volume 5, and has excised a great deal of material to be used for volume 6.
I am optimistic, possibly naive and blinded by desire, but optimistic. Maybe if the HBO series takes off it will impose deadlines of a sort for the last two books.
I enjoyed AFFC the first time, but I am currently doing a reread of the series and it's been damn painful getting through it again. The first three were sheer pleasure. I think GRRM fell in love with his writing and thought he could do no wrong after the success of the first three. It's incredibly bloated, too many info dumps and description, and the long stretches of dryness are enough to throw any pacing off. Or maybe the series got too big and GRRM tried too many story arcs at once. It's only his skill and talent as a writer that kept me plucking through.
But to his credit, the last third of AFFC is as good or better as any of the first three in the series. He must have had to rush it to reach a deadline or something and cut out all the filler. The thing is, do you want to wade through 600+ pages to get there?
I encourage you to read it again, Keith, if you haven't already and see if your opinion changes like mine did.
I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed A Feast For Crows (not as much as the first three, but it wasn't a huge drop off for me).If only he would write the rest of the series, but we all know there won't be any more. Martin's out of oomph; the series is dead in the water.I think we will see A Dance with Dragons but that's it. I sure hope it's good after the wait and the mediocrity of A Feast For Crows.
I love AFFC. Go figure.
I encourage you to read it again, Keith, if you haven't already and see if your opinion changes like mine did.I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed A Feast For Crows (not as much as the first three, but it wasn't a huge drop off for me). And if his blog is any indication, he's close to being done with volume 5, and has excised a great deal of material to be used for volume 6.
I am optimistic, possibly naive and blinded by desire, but optimistic. Maybe if the HBO series takes off it will impose deadlines of a sort for the last two books.
Oops! Meant to address Seabyrn, not Keith.
Oops! Meant to address Seabyrn, not Keith.
Who is "Keith"?
Oops! Meant to address Seabyrn, not Keith.Who is "Keith"?
Maybe I should stop now. LOL. It's been a long night.
I am reading Tehanu by Ursala K. Le Guin which iw nomber four in the Earthsea set :) Interesting way to do magick too.
I can't remember if this came out before or after Tales from Earthsea, but I definitely remember it feeling like Le Guin had decided to stop writing Geb stories for kids.
It's nowhere near as much fun as the first three, but a compelling and satisfying read in its own.
I love used book stores. I consider myself blessed to have five really excellent shops within a ten-mile radius (although I still miss Boston, which was used book store heaven).
Anyway, today I scored what I'm sure is going to be my find for the year: 10 volumes of the De Camp/Carter edited Conan stories for 2 bucks each! I even bought the ones I already had, they were so cheap.
Purists may sneer, but I love the De Camp/Carter editions. I think they were just as good as Howard. In fact, if those guys and their peers like Fletcher Pratt and Poul Anderson were still around, they'd be kicking most of the bestselling fantasy books off the charts.
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The next one (Storm of Swords) is even better.If only he would write the rest of the series, but we all know there won't be any more. Martin's out of oomph; the series is dead in the water.
I wouldn't say so. His new ASoIaF story, "Mystery Knight" shows a lot of oomph. If you are a fan of the series, you should read it. Also, his work on Wild Cards is excellent and I like that he puts a lot of effort in bringing new generation of writers to the series.
I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed A Feast For Crows (not as much as the first three, but it wasn't a huge drop off for me). And if his blog is any indication, he's close to being done with volume 5, and has excised a great deal of material to be used for volume 6.
I am optimistic, possibly naive and blinded by desire, but optimistic. Maybe if the HBO series takes off it will impose deadlines of a sort for the last two books.
I encourage you to read it again, Keith, if you haven't already and see if your opinion changes like mine did.
Oops! Meant to address Seabyrn, not Keith.
I definitely will, and will look to see if my opinion changes (I won't be able to get to it soon, but maybe before the next one comes out).
/what's going on with quoting in this thread? The quote tags in my last 3 or 4 posts have been way off.
"The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11", by Lawrence Wright. Recommended.
yep ;I would thumbs up it also
After posting a bunch of times on this thread, I suppose I ought to answer the question.
I'm currently reading The Elvenbane, by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. I'm over 300 pages into it, and it's... all right. I don't plan to pursue the other books of the trilogy.
I'm also re-reading the classic Foundation trilogy by Isaac Asimov, again. I'm currently on the second volume of that trilogy, Foundation and Empire. I have named that trilogy the greatest science fiction epic ever, and would highly recommend the first volume of that series (simply titled "Foundation.")
Ditto, and throw Count Brass in too
Huilliam D'Averc, one of my favorite fantasy anti-heroes.+1,000,000
Couldn't finish Chris Bunch's The Seer King. Not terrible, but as much depth as a kiddie pool.
Finished Guillermo del Toro's The Fall, the second in his vampire trilogy with Chuck Hogan. A fast, easy read, enjoyed it thoroughly, especially the background information on Setrakian. Looking forward to the last book in the series.
A reread of A Feast for Crows showed up some glaring weaknesses that weren't evident in my first read through. Bogged descriptions, bloated filler and a few too many story arcs made this obvious as the weakest of the series so far. Only Martin's superior writing skills kept me hanging in there.
Just finished Abercrombie's The Heroes. A great book, I enjoyed it much more than Best Served Cold but maybe 100 pages too long. A lot of anticlimatic pages after the end of the battle that I thought could have been whittled down somewhat.
On to Mark Sehestedt's The Hand of the Hunter, the second book in The Chosen of Nendawen series by WOTC and In the Footsteps of William Wallace by Alan Young and Michael J Stead.
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Just finished The Sword of the Dawn, part three in Moorcock's History of the Runestaff. The first half is excellent, taking a peek into the internal life of the Dark Empire of Granbretan. The Palace of Time is a thrilling locale, and Flana Mikosevaar is a great femme fatale.
The second part, in Amarehk, pits Hawkmoon and D'Averc against some nasty pirates. Not quite as exciting as the first part, but pretty good nonetheless.
Plato's The Republic, on the other hand, I gave up after Book V, because, frankly, I don't care what Plato thinks. "Allegory of the cave" blah blah blah; everyone should only do one thing so that they can do it well, blah blah blah.I begin to understand the reason for your simplistic political views -- sheer disinterest.
Well, I went back and re-started The Republic. I had originally been reading the Benjamin Jowett translation, but I switched over to the F.M. Cornford translation and it's been much less tedious. Cornford removes all the "I agree"s and "Yes"s that were putting me to sleep in the Jowett edition. Makes it much less of a dialogue, but easier to read.
I'm slowly but surely making my way through The Deed of Paksenarrion omnibus, a series I first heard about somewhere over the course of this enormous thread. Everything you've heard is true: while the first book Sheepfarmer's Daughter is more a war story, the D&D influences in the second book Divided Allegiance are almost immediately apparent. It's also a damn good read, so I'll second whoever first mentioned it here.
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Well, I went back and re-started The Republic. I had originally been reading the Benjamin Jowett translation, but I switched over to the F.M. Cornford translation and it's been much less tedious. Cornford removes all the "I agree"s and "Yes"s that were putting me to sleep in the Jowett edition. Makes it much less of a dialogue, but easier to read.Plato's The Republic, on the other hand, I gave up after Book V, because, frankly, I don't care what Plato thinks. "Allegory of the cave" blah blah blah; everyone should only do one thing so that they can do it well, blah blah blah.I begin to understand the reason for your simplistic political views -- sheer disinterest.
I think Plato should have been translated more realistically -
Well, I went back and re-started The Republic. I had originally been reading the Benjamin Jowett translation, but I switched over to the F.M. Cornford translation and it's been much less tedious. Cornford removes all the "I agree"s and "Yes"s that were putting me to sleep in the Jowett edition. Makes it much less of a dialogue, but easier to read.Plato's The Republic, on the other hand, I gave up after Book V, because, frankly, I don't care what Plato thinks. "Allegory of the cave" blah blah blah; everyone should only do one thing so that they can do it well, blah blah blah.I begin to understand the reason for your simplistic political views -- sheer disinterest.I think Plato should have been translated more realistically -
Hee hee!
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I completed my guilty pleasure of the next Xanth novel: "Two to the Fifth".
Yes, the novels are a bit repetitive (and this one is especially naughty), but i like them.
Up in the batting circle: "Mächte des Feuers" by Markus Heitz, a German novel in a setting like "Arrowsmith" by Kurt Busiek, but in 1925 following a descendant of Saint George.
Joe Abercrombie's The Heroes. While I greatly enjoyed the First Law trilogy and absolutely loved Best Served Cold, I'm not getting the same level of enjoyment from Heroes. I think larger number and more diverse POV's aren't keeping the story quite as focussed as previous Abercrombie novels. Still, an enjoyable read, and I'm hoping with crossed fingers that Logen Ninefingers/The Bloody Nine makes a return appearance.
Just finished Abercrombie's The Heroes. A great book, I enjoyed it much more than Best Served Cold but maybe 100 pages too long. A lot of anticlimatic pages after the end of the battle that I thought could have been whittled down somewhat.
Interesting you say that as I thought some of the best stuff came after the battle... [Wasteland I shan't tempt you with spoilers]
With The Heroes think Abercrombie was trying something different with regards the cast, pacing and pov's... lest it just be written off as a rehash of his previous titles [Mr Salvatore I'm looking at you]
If anything it could have been a little more brutal...
Joe Abercrombie's The Heroes. While I greatly enjoyed the First Law trilogy and absolutely loved Best Served Cold, I'm not getting the same level of enjoyment from Heroes. I think larger number and more diverse POV's aren't keeping the story quite as focussed as previous Abercrombie novels. Still, an enjoyable read, and I'm hoping with crossed fingers that Logen Ninefingers/The Bloody Nine makes a return appearance.
Funny, I preferred The Heroes to Best Served Cold. I thought The Heroes capitalized on Joe's greatest strength which is writing vivid battle scenes. To myself, all the characters in Best Served Cold were the same personality in different shells: murdering psychopaths. In The Heroes, you have some characters with different motivations and personalities.
Tried to read the second book in The Chosen of Nendawen, WOTC's FR line, Hand of the Hunter but doesn't even remotely stack to the first one, The Fall of Highwatch. Thought it was too good to be true.
Getting away from fantasy for a bit, read In The Footsteps of William Wallace, then in The Footsteps of Robert Bruce, both by Alan Young and Michael Stead. The Bruce book reads much better, maybe because I am more familiar with the Wallace, but both books are disjointed by double page spreads of pictures and write ups, which became quite annoying after a while. Still, some great history stacked in those books.
Currently reading Alison Weir's Queen Isabella: Treachery, Adultery and Murder in Medieval England. Weir is one of the best historian authors there is and this is great subject matter. Thought it was funny that Isabella was between 7-10 years old when William Wallace was put to death, not exactly the queen Sophie Marceau portrayed in Braveheart. I love Braveheart, but there are some major historical inaccuracies portrayed in that film. The battle of Stirling Bridge, Robert the Bruce's role, Wallace's capture, etc., etc. William Wallace the father of Edward III? That might have changed Scottish history and the circumstances surrounding the Hundred Years War just a tad. That Mel Gibson is not only crazy, but a schmuck{on purpose} to boot.
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Joe Abercrombie's The Heroes. While I greatly enjoyed the First Law trilogy and absolutely loved Best Served Cold, I'm not getting the same level of enjoyment from Heroes. I think larger number and more diverse POV's aren't keeping the story quite as focussed as previous Abercrombie novels. Still, an enjoyable read, and I'm hoping with crossed fingers that Logen Ninefingers/The Bloody Nine makes a return appearance.
I'll have to check him out. At least one of his FB posts was pretty amusing (expressing bewilderment at his being castigated for "postmodern blasphemies against our mythic heritage"). At least he was in good company; I didn't read the article he was responding to, but apparently he was lumped in with Michael Swanwick, Steven Erikson, and Matthew Woodring Stover.
Tried to read the second book in The Chosen of Nendawen, WOTC's FR line, Hand of the Hunter but doesn't even remotely stack to the first one, The Fall of Highwatch. Thought it was too good to be true.
Would you mind elaborating a little bit on what you felt changed between one book and the next? I haven't read the Nendawen series yet, but it's been on my list for a while, so I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on what you liked about the first book and what stopped you from getting into the second.
Tried to read the second book in The Chosen of Nendawen, WOTC's FR line, Hand of the Hunter but doesn't even remotely stack to the first one, The Fall of Highwatch. Thought it was too good to be true.Would you mind elaborating a little bit on what you felt changed between one book and the next? I haven't read the Nendawen series yet, but it's been on my list for a while, so I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on what you liked about the first book and what stopped you from getting into the second.
The premise of the The Fall of Highwatch was very well done. Lost "princess" flees from fallen land due to a siege involving betrayal. She then finds herself in a remote wilderness with her man at arms, only to be overrcome by the enemy. Then she is saved by a mysterious winter elf who is related to her mother and finds she may be the answer to an ancient prophecy involving a "hunter" god. Meanwhile, back at her fallen "castle" the traitor responsible for the siege finds himself being manipulated and in over his head with a spell plagued sorceror. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many threaded story arcs it becomes quite fascinating. It's well written for WOTC (occasional clumsy dialogue and a few descriptions bog down the story, but minor complaints seeing the author is not as prolific and writing for a mature audience as someone like GRRM), well imagined and certainly more adult in terms of gore than any WOTC book I have read before. I was pleasantly surprised to say the least.
The second one, Hand of the Hunter, falls into cliche fast with the princess trying to fulfill her ancient destiny and encountering a yoda like creature who tries to teach her to be the "one". I groaned out loud. The story seems to have taken on a more childish and immature tone and I wonder was the author told to tone it down from the first book. Anyway, after 100 pages, I lost interest fast. I have a huge stack of fantasy and history books I am trying to blaze through and I wasn't going to waste my time. Maybe you might like it more? Maybe just my taste.
But the first one was a real jewel. Enjoy it while it lasts if you decide to pick it up.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated.
I'll go ahead with the first one and see how things shape up from there. I've liked the author's previous FR books but fell behind a while ago, so haven't read all the newer ones.
Hey Liane, just checked out your website and ordered your novel, River King's Road: A Novel of Ithelas. A little late, but congrats on the book publishing!