A player in my group has a 5th level psion from the EPH. After a recent gaming session I was left scratching my head. It seems the other characters in the group look to him to take out the main bad guys.
He has a great character concept for him. He is physicall weak and slow with a superior intellect. If it were possible, his flatfooted AC would be higher than with his Dex mod :p
I understand the powerpoints he has are limited in user per day based on level and the amount of power points he can put in to any one power are also dependend on his level. However, I am starting to see some of the powers as overpowered. Example: in the mentioned gaming session, I had a pretty strong orog the party was battling. The psion used a power that required a saving throw from the orog. He failed and was forced to concentrate on breathing. If he did not concentrate on only breathing he would have to make another saving throw. If he failed that saving throw he would immediately drop to 0 HP at which point a character could easily perform a coup de grace on the hapless victim.
Well, after all that, my question for those that play psions is this: do things get worse or will the balance out? I am considering giving major npc villains psionic defenses of some sort. If they have physical and magical defenses it only seems fair, in a world that has psionics, that there be psionic defenses as well.
Thanks!
A player in my group has a 5th level psion from the EPH. After a recent gaming session I was left scratching my head. It seems the other characters in the group look to him to take out the main bad guys.
He has a great character concept for him. He is physicall weak and slow with a superior intellect. If it were possible, his flatfooted AC would be higher than with his Dex mod :p
I understand the powerpoints he has are limited in user per day based on level and the amount of power points he can put in to any one power are also dependend on his level. However, I am starting to see some of the powers as overpowered. Example: in the mentioned gaming session, I had a pretty strong orog the party was battling. The psion used a power that required a saving throw from the orog. He failed and was forced to concentrate on breathing. If he did not concentrate on only breathing he would have to make another saving throw. If he failed that saving throw he would immediately drop to 0 HP at which point a character could easily perform a coup de grace on the hapless victim.
Well, after all that, my question for those that play psions is this: do things get worse or will the balance out? I am considering giving major npc villains psionic defenses of some sort. If they have physical and magical defenses it only seems fair, in a world that has psionics, that there be psionic defenses as well.
Thanks!
Which power was used? My understanding is that the psioniocs themselves are roughly the equivalent of spells at the same level but psionic points are more versitile allowing one to more easily augument powers etc. Thus nmaking Psionics better then comparable magic if one needs lots of power in a very small amount of time.
I don't think this (crisis of breath, 3rd level telepathic ability) is overpowering. Compare it to blindness a 3rd level cleric spell, if you fail your Fort save you cannot see and a group could move away and pelt you to death with missile fire. Hold person is a 3rd level mage spell and 2nd level for a cleric if the orog would fail its will save then an ally or the spell user could coup de grace on the next round. The crisis of breath spell allows a will save but also a Fort save later usually creatures and characters have a good save in one of these.
If you are not familiar with EPH then I would ask the character to introduce another character and tell him you will look over the book and he can play his psion the next time.
I don't think psionics are overpowered. Well, Baramay already explained why the already posted spell isn't overpowered, and that's how it works for most spells. Also, the psion has to choose a discipline (more or less like a cleric's domain) at 1st level. Each discipline has unique spells that other psions can't learn (except by getting some feats). This helps to balance the psion, since he can't choose spells from ALL the list. Also, spell resistance also protect creatures from psionic powers (unless that the DM decides otherwise), so it balances it well.
IMO, psionics are well balanced and very interesting to play.
I ran a game with a psion in it, a wizard, and a cleric. The cleric and wizard were both played by experienced players and I am well versed with psionics, having enjoyed them since 1st ed. They are, however overpowered. Both the wizard and cleric characters (all 3 were 11th level) were amazed at the powers and what happens when you augment them (look at psionic dominate, and the errata for it on WotC boards).
You want to rebalance the game against your psion? Use a mind flayer or two. Then give them levels in psion class, an associated class that stacks with their natural abilities. I guarantee the flayers will stomp the non psion characters.
Don't allow psionic characters unless YOU are familiar with the rules for psionics and are going to use psionic creatures. And watch out for the Thrallherd PrC.
And of course there is the ability to cast psions as a sorcerer(no need to "memorize"), use healing "spells" on oneself, alter energy types used in abilities such as energy missile/burst/ball/whatever, and no real need to use meta psionic feats to emulate meta magic feats.
Can't wait until the complete psionics book comes out.
Psionics can be very powerful. Too powerful sometimes. There is a feat in there that grants you more power points the more psionic feats you have - is there an arcane equiv? NO!
Also the ability to spend your points on whatever power you have is super powerful. Consider what a sorcerer woudl be like if they started sacrificing 1-4th level spells to cast additional 9th level spells - crazyness!
And someone already brought up the ability to buff powers with using a higher spell slot etc.
OK so psionisists (sp?) can be the ultimate artillery or domination piece in a party and in my opinion can quickly eclipse other characters of the same level. Unless the DM runs sessions that are not hack and slash the whole time. Throw in some social interaction and most psions are helpless.
igi
And watch out for the Thrallherd PrC.
That guys a killer...trust me my psion had some level in that before he ummm....was eaten....but before that anyone he encountered was either to afraid to fight him (with his 3 ogre body guards)or dropped before he had to 'cast a spell'. Oh the good ol' days...
As far as social interaction the dm could use the psion's psionic tatts to do something to npc's reaction....just an idea....and don't forget the djornes (something like that atleast) which function as scrolls/wands w/ 50 charged along w/ ion stones coupled with some big crystal that floats around a psions head w/ three little attachments to it (cant remember the name of them) but they increase pp's that can be held. Don't forget psionic crystals as well...when communication can happen between psion and crystal then thats just one more thing for the dm to worry about (although it is kind of like a familiar). The dm might want to limit the availability of gems for this very reason...
Oh well thats my advice but what do I know?
SHIBBY
I don't think this (crisis of breath, 3rd level telepathic ability) is overpowering. Compare it to blindness a 3rd level cleric spell, if you fail your Fort save you cannot see and a group could move away and pelt you to death with missile fire. Hold person is a 3rd level mage spell and 2nd level for a cleric if the orog would fail its will save then an ally or the spell user could coup de grace on the next round. The crisis of breath spell allows a will save but also a Fort save later usually creatures and characters have a good save in one of these.
If you are not familiar with EPH then I would ask the character to introduce another character and tell him you will look over the book and he can play his psion the next time.
Yes, a mistake on my part was to give only a cursory glance at the handbook.
Thanks for the information, everyone. I know what I must do....have him eaten :p j/k
Thanks!
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Basic point possibly missed, and possibly unimportant - a character on 0hp is not helpless or unconcious. Another point - while the Crisis of Breath power is scalable at higher levels, at 5th level it affects only one character (and only humanoids, unless scaled up at 7th level). So why not just have more than one enemy? And the psionic character in question, as you point out, is weak physically. Sure, if he is allowed to stand at the back and zap people, he is going to be powerful. But he would probably be challenged if the party is attacked from the rear by surprise or ambush. How about poison? How about assassins (sneak attack and death attck with Fort save)? How about area effect? How about things that don't breathe - undead or (every spellcaster's nightmare) golems? How about an enemy psion - see how much he enjoys choking to death? Obviously don't victimise the guy because he has chosen a psion, but don't give him a free ride either. As a DM you have plenty of options to deal with this and provide him and the party with plenty to challenge them.
This isn't a problem with the psionic rules - they seem reasonably balanced to me (compare Crisis of Breath with Phantasmal Killer - a higher level "spell" but also considerably more powerful with a "save or die" requirement). There are wrinkles and loopholes all over the place in the rules, not just psionics. Psionics is just not very clearly understood, so the average DM is playing catch-up more often.
I feel that psionics are too powerful. Plus I don't like the concept.
I compared A high level wiz with high lvl psion and the psion could use it's 9th lvl powers augmented fully (so basically tenth lvl spells) up to nine times per day, then the psion had to use weaker powers, Mainly teleport to get away from whatever couldnt be beaten by 9 tenth lvl spells.
A psion uses his advanced intellect to manipulat the forces around him directly
Thats awesome but as far as I'm concerned thats Exactly What a friggin wizard does. Does this mean that arcane magic is nothing but math with a cooler effect? I don't think so at least.
I don't allow anything from the psionic handbooks in my campaign (anymore.... I've had some bad experiances) and all psionics are treated as spell like abilities or special attacks which has not changed anything.
All my anti-psion opinion
I back the anti-psionics on this. I can respect the concept: Arcane Magic manipulate ley energies and such, while Psionics conjure the effect directly from force of will. It's a tiny bit of semantics that, when read right, allow for all the psionic stuff. But, just because I respect the concept doesn't mean I like it. I think it is outside the scope of D&D. Just an opinion.
But, there's also things like the ability to wear armor, since they have no spell failure that I know of. Sure, they only get light, and bards get that, plus shields, but with no spell failure and a horrifically weak physical build, what's to keep them from wearing medium or heavy armor? Not my idea of a caster unless we're talking cleric. Allowing anyone else to do that takes away from the priests, which I don't like.
Not only that, but I don't want to be playing catch up all the time. I know, a DM can incorporate anything, etc. etc., but when it's a new feat or spell, the rules are already understood and take very little thought on the DM's part. I don't have the time or the inclination to read through a whole other sourcebook about an alternate magic system, nor do I want to constantly use it to throw in new items, new creaturs, etc., just because the rules for those classes are almost too different to work solely with core rules- they require the addition of more and more "optional" material from that book to make them really balanced/interesting/whatever.
Here's another thing that rubs me: They can't use the same magic items as other casters. What? Look, divine magic is as different from psionics as it is arcane magic, in an in-game deffinition of its source and use. But a cleric can still use scrolls, just like a wizard! And staves, wands, potions, etc. Plus, they still use the same schools of magic, but not psionics. Oh no, that would make it easy to incorporate them!
And, somewhat along with what Sexi said, it's not the fact that the individual spells are more powerful than other spells of that level, it's the fact that they can be so easily augmented. And, like Ignimbrite said, they can use far too many high level powers per day. Thus, you have to look at the impact over the course of a whole adventure, not just one fight. The system is just broken. While I don't like the concept of psionics, I would allow them in my game if the numbers behind them weren't so off-kilter.
IMO, you should ban all further psionics, whether it's a hack and slash campaign or not. Let the player keep his character for now, but kill it at the first easy opportunity that doesn't look like you're singling him out. The only way to make psionics balanced is if the whole party is psionic.
Creative Director
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Psionics are tricksy.
I really like the flavor and rules for psionics, but that said, they're a poor fit for most campaigns. They only really work when everyone in the group's playing a psionic character, and when the DM uses lots of psionic encounters and psionic NPCs or monsters.
The main problem is the fact that psionic powers can be overclocked, allowing a psion to do a LOT more stuff in one encounter than any other class. Sure, he depletes his resources for the day faster, but this doesn't matter if you're doing only one or two encounters a day. And you can bet that with one psionic character in the party, that's the pattern your group will adopt.
In my experience, things get worse... MUCH worse... as a psionic character gains levels and they have more options for overchanneling their powers.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Psionics are tricksy.
I really like the flavor and rules for psionics, but that said, they're a poor fit for most campaigns. They only really work when everyone in the group's playing a psionic character, and when the DM uses lots of psionic encounters and psionic NPCs or monsters.
The main problem is the fact that psionic powers can be overclocked, allowing a psion to do a LOT more stuff in one encounter than any other class. Sure, he depletes his resources for the day faster, but this doesn't matter if you're doing only one or two encounters a day. And you can bet that with one psionic character in the party, that's the pattern your group will adopt.
How would having multiple psionic characters/NPC's affect the overclock problem? Wouldn't it just encourge more of that?
Sebastian
How would having multiple psionic characters/NPC's affect the overclock problem? Wouldn't it just encourge more of that?
I think what James J. means is that when one person is overclocked, it throws an adventure out of balance. When EVERYONE is overclocked, including the antagonists, you'd hopefully wind up with a balanced game again (albeit one in which everyone does crazy-awesome amounts of damage).
-James
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Creative Director
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The other James is right; once everyone in the group is of a similar makeup (as in, they're all psionic), then the game-balance issues go away. One person in the group won't be dramatically overshadowing the others, and the DM will be able to more easilly design challenging encounters since he doesn't have to worry about bumping encoutners up high enough to challenge one psionic character while leaving the others overwhelmed, or challenging the others and letting the psionic character overclock his brain and wipe the encounter out with ease.
Having all your PCs be more powerful than a standard D&D group is fine. It's when one character in a group is markedly more powerful than the others that things become a problem.
In my campaign, being psionic has its advantages, of course... but all my players are also painfully aware of the disadvantages. Use psionics, and you attract psionic monsters. If you're the only psion in the party, you are often on your own when they come calling. Consequently, those PCs try to be conservative in their use of powers.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
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Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent material (including a mini-adventure suitable for psionics at http://melkot.com/locations/dreadwood.html
My players seem started gravitating toward Psionics early on but they have begun to reverse course somewhat due to all the cool wizard stuff around. One of the ways I balance the class out is by not making much of an effort to add psionic specific magic to the treasure hordes. The stuff is still there but as Psionics are not nearly as common and is a much younger discipline as magic there is a heck of a lot less of it.
For this reason I'm glad psionic characters can't use scrolls etc. I'd think that would just unbalance them more then they might otherwise be.
If you feel that psionics are over powered then balance it out a little bit. Let's say, for example, that everytime they use their powers it hurts their brain. The stronger the power, the more damage it does. You could say that for every power point they spend does one point of subdual damage to the psionic character. Maybe this would keep them from blasting away so much and being a bit more concervative with their powers.
A bit from my Hoarde
Unearthed Arcana gives an alternative use of magic by spellcasters based in spell points. It could be useful to balance the psion's power points.