In the "Warlock Class - Good or Bad?" thread, I asked a question that temporarily derailed the conversation into the realm of the pros and cons of wizards vs. other base classes. It was suggested several times that such a topic should be made a new thread, so here it is.
The issues about wizards are numerous and can be found within that thread. I find that the wizard is a perfectly powerful class, with plenty of options. Their versatility is better than that of a sorcerer, and the low spells/day is easily circumvented by Scribe Scroll, and with even just one Item Creation feat, the wizard can make up for money lost in learning new spells and such. Provided the DM allows downtime, there doesn't seem to be an issue with the days it takes to make items, either.
As discussed in the other thread, the utility of wizards largely depends on DM playing style, but there was a significant amount of discussion about changing them in some fashion. I'm interested to hear what other people have to say.
I personally run wizards as written, with the only changes being that specialization only requires one prohibited school, and their bonus feats can be anything I approve of that's directly related to magic/lore.
Another point in the Warlock thread was that, in 3.x, divine casters have just as powerful spells, and just as many levels of them, and more per day, than wizards. I think that would be the easiest facet of the class to change, and to preserve game balance, it would probably be easier to change the wizard's spell progression than every other caster's. Either that, or make wizard spells of various levels more powerful than the divine counterparts for that level.
Personally, I would start with Summon Monster. I really think more powerful summons should be available at every level- perhaps, say, shifting everything down a level (the summon monster 5 list becomes the summon monster 4 list). This would obviously need some tweaking, and the fact remains that summons can be made much better with Augment Summoning, but I still think it's worth looking into.
There's what I have to say so far. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter that anyone else might have.
Thanks for posting this, man. I have always loved playing Wizards, and they remain my favorite class to play in 3.5.
First of all, my thoughts on Item Creation Feats:
Overall, I think that they're balanced. I just don't think that the time, gold, and XP can be considered a negative factor. Yes. . . it will conflict with some campaigns, but if the DM has a Wizard in the campaign, I feel that some accomodation must be taken to give them time to use their abilities.
As a DM and a player, I think you have to mold your campagin a bit. . . it's like having a Rogue with maxed ranks in Disable Device and Search, and never putting in a trap. Or it's like having a Paladin with Mounted Combat feats and just given him tight dungeon crawls. Part of being a DM is accomodating the heroic archetypes of your players. Just as you take away opportunities to add to the excitement and challenges, you must also allow them to "show off" a bit.
I have many other ideas and concerns about the Wizard class, but I'll wait a bit and others chime in before posting more. I'll sum up by saying that choosing to play a low-level Wizard means that there is a good potential of getting b~*!! slapped alot. Sometimes by your fellow players. Don't let that stuff make you shy away from the class. . . use it. After all, doesn't being a bad-ass in every single game ever get old?
I think it depends on the people that play them. My sister swears by the sorcerer class, and will always choos it over wizard. She like the way the sorcerer can use any of his known spells at will, and thinks it's an advantage over the wizard.
I would tend to play a wizard over a sorcerer because I like the wide array of spells that are at my disposal. Sure I have to choose which one I'll be using in advance, but I like to count on myself to make the right choices (and I rarely miss).
Like I said, I guess it depends on who is playing.
Ultradan
Okay, I couldn't stay away. . . I wrote some rules for Wiarding Survival, which I was going to post on my blog. I also want to share them here, because I thought they were cool. I'm sure that every one of these is repeated somewhere else, and none of them are mind-boggling. Some may just be wrong.
Anyway, with all self-depriciating qualifiers aside, here are my 13 Rules of Wizarding Survival
*Ahem*
1. Don’t talk smack. If you try, you’re only going to get your ass kicked. In every situation where you try to do this, your adversary is about ten feet away. That is bad unless you're a Barbarian. If you absolutely have to do take some smack, use a billboard . . . 200 yards away.
2. Forget about armor. I KNOW that you want to be protected. Who doesn’t? But you don't have any, so deal with it. Don’t try to supplement things by buying magical protective items like Bracers of Armor, rings of protection, Amulet of Natural Armor and all of that junk. It’s too expensive, and the benefit isn’t worth it. If a warrior-type, or a monster with lots of hit dice and a good attack bonus find themselves right next to you ready to attack, then you’ve already done something wrong. Never let a monster roll a D20 melee attack on you. If this looks eminent, don’t waste your time with Mage Armor, use Displacement, Invisibility, or Fly to avoid the hit altogether.
3. Spells are better than a tower shield. Why do you bother trying to take attacks from missile weapons with your AC? Avoid the temptation to buy a bunch of items (tip #2) that won’t be useful, except in rare situations. Always have spells like stoneskin, windwall, protection from missiles, etc. handy to neutralize the attacks instead. Granted, if a Rogue draws a bead on you from long range and hits with a sneak attack, you’ll get hurt. Forget it and move on. Just don’t let him do it twice.
4. Be aware. You can’t stroll into a bar and prominently show your back to would be assassins. Check the corners. Meet strangers with suspicion. Be paranoid. Wizards sit unobtrusively in the corner with their backs to a wall for a reason. I know you want to be flamboyant and kick some ass, but your hit points suck. Guard them. You have a familiar that grants you alertness right? Use it and prevent some of the bad things that can happen in tip #3.
5. Buy scrolls. To repeat (tip #2) again, don’t waste money on protective gear that shouldn’t come into play for your character. So what to buy? Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls baby. If you can’t make ‘em, bite the bullet and corner the market by buying a bunch. Make sure some of your prepared spells are combat oriented . . . but buy scrolls for the rest! You also have a diverse list of utility spells, and you should have them all available, or as many as you can.
6. Know stuff. Gain trust, get discounts, build alliances, identify the weaknesses of creatures, etc . . . if a Rogue specializes in making the party safe through manipulating the physical world, then your job is to make the party safe through manipulating your knowledge of the rest. You can get through the secret door yourself, or use knowledge skills to provide a clue that gets the Rogue through a nasty trap or locked door.
7. Save your spells. Imagine this 9th level spellcaster’s battle strategy: round 1 – 5th level spell, round 2 - 4th level spell, round 3- 4th level spell, etc. If you forget #5 and have nothing left to use, your life boils down to you and a melee weapon. This is bad. Have other options at your disposal. There are plenty of offensive wands no the market these days, and since you don’t mind having an Armor class of 8, you can afford them. And see #5, ya knucklehead.
8. You suck at attacking. You will always suck. In fact, don’t even bother carrying a melee weapon; it’ll only tempt you to do something stupid. With ranged weapons, if it comes down to you loading a crossbow and missing three times, then don’t. Only attack if you have something specifically useful mind. Make 50 +1 giant bane bolts; sell 45 of them to your rogue or a merchant and keep a paltry 5 for yourself. THis way, you have some utility and can make True Strike a worthwhile spell.
9. Buff the tank. A 4th level caster can use 2 magic missiles, a melf’s acid arrow, and scorching ray for an average of 36 points of damage, assuming that both ray touch attacks hit with your paltry ranged touch attack bonus (See #8). On the other hand, you can use bull’s strength on the fighter with the two handed weapon. If he uses his extra +2 attack bonus from the spell on a Power Attack and hits 6 out of the next 10 rounds, you just did 42 points of damage right there. . . plus it’ll probably remain active long enough to be useful in one more encounter. Plus, you don’t have to have a line of sight, allowing yourself to hide behind the other meat shields. It’s not sexy, but it’s very effective.
10. ABC means “Always Be Casting.” A Metamagic Rod for Silent Spells is a beautiful thing. So is the Eschew Materials feat (if you don’t already have this as a house rule – I usually do). Keep you hands up and protect yourself at all times.
11. You are not mysterious. Make sure your fellow party members understand your capabilities. If you are loaded up with Fireballs on an overland journey, your fighter should not be charging into a group of 50 goblins because he thinks your going to cast Fly and use missile weapons. Always let everybody know what your capable of, so they can get the hell out of the way, or stand guard, as needed.
12. Team build. This means not screwing anybody over. Don’t Identity a magic item and then tell the party it isn’t worth anything. Don’t steal something and rnu away, trying to cover your actions with spells. Instead, let them know that their protection is important to you. Cast phantom steed for a fighter so he can charge heroically into battle on a bad-ass mount, or use Gaseous Form (instead of boring old invisibility) on the Rogue, and let her have fun scouting out the dungeon in an interesting way.
13. Have fun. Wizards are a cool archetype, so enjoy exploring the personality of a character whose abilities may pale by comparison to the rest of your party. And enjoy getting first access to some of the most unique and varied Prestige Classes in the game!
Okay, I couldn't stay away. . . I wrote some rules for Wiarding Survival, which I was going to post on my blog. I also want to share them here, because I thought they were cool. I'm sure that every one of these is repeated somewhere else, and none of them are mind-boggling. Some may just be wrong.
Anyway, with all self-depriciating qualifiers aside, here are my 13 Rules of Wizarding Survival
*Ahem*
I realize, reading this, that Chris and I play wizards completely differently. Mostly, I strongly disagree with #2 - not that they shouldn't buy them, mind you, they should be sure to MAKE them, or greedily take them when the party finds them. Most characters won't want bracers of armor +3 anyway. Especially scrolls of mage armor - minimal cost, fairly substantive benefit. At low levels, that +4 armor bonus can be the thread keeping the wizard alive.
Not that they should waste spell slots on it. It's all about the scrolls and potions.
- Ashavan
Okay, I couldn't stay away. . . I wrote some rules for Wiarding Survival, which I was going to post on my blog. I also want to share them here, because I thought they were cool. I'm sure that every one of these is repeated somewhere else, and none of them are mind-boggling. Some may just be wrong.
Anyway, with all self-depriciating qualifiers aside, here are my 13 Rules of Wizarding Survival
One word - priceless.
Well first off as a change I don't think any "adventurer" should have a hit die of less than a d6.
Heck, the local librarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker could all be level 1 experts that have a d6 hit die for all you know! :)
In any event, I think Rogues should be bumped up to the d8 that monks get, Clerics and Druids should be cut down to a d6 while wizards and sorc's and the like are bumped up to a d6. This would put all pure casters at D6, all versitile melee at d8 (monk, ranger, rogue), and the tanks at d10+ (war, pal, Barb)
Magic in D&D has always been questionable at best... the memorization system and very limited spells per day really don't live up well to the Gandalf, Elminister, Merlin, etc. of book and legend... but of course there is an issue of balance.
I realize these are pretty drastic changes, and that's why they are just ideas. Rebalancing an entire game system is tough work, and my ideas aren't set in stone.
as a side note... I think that wizards are OK other than the hit die... the divine casters are the problem in the 3.x balance. I say lower their hit dice and remove fort as a good save for divine casters is a good start... that or cut them back down to NO 8th and 9th lvl divine spells.
I realize, reading this, that Chris and I play wizards completely differently. Mostly, I strongly disagree with #2 - not that they shouldn't buy them, mind you, they should be sure to MAKE them, or greedily take them when the party finds them. Most characters won't want bracers of armor +3 anyway.
LOL. . . yeah, I do have a weird philosophy on this stuff. Playing Wizards for 20+ years has given me some bizarre survival techniques. :)
The way I see it, the difference between an AC 12 and an AC 15 is negligable against something with a +10 BAB. The best defense, IMO, is to stay out of arm's length (or line of sight) all together.
I guess if I found +3 Bracers of Armor, I'd want to claim it and sell it for 4,500 gp so I can buy up about 12 3rd level arcane scrolls. Even better, make 24 of them at the same price with Scribe Scroll.
Okay, I couldn't stay away. . . I wrote some rules for Wizarding Survival, which I was going to post on my blog. I also want to share them here, because I thought they were cool...
Very cool, Chris!
Back in days when D&D combat was more like fun than checkers, I probably broke every single rule Chris listed, except for the magical protective device one. All of my magical paraphernalia came off the smoking husks of my enemies whom I would often meet for one-on-one spell duels without party knowledge. I had a bandolier of magic daggers and a haste spell all warmed up for titanic swirling melees. My less abbrasive wizard was a bit of a ladies' man and fought with a quarterstaff. He was secretly the son of a wealthy vinter, so he never told anyone it was a buck-and-a-quarter quarterstaff.
Dodge, parry, thrust, spin - SPLASH,
GGG
Dodge, parry, thrust, spin - SPLASH,
GGG
You're dispicable. . .
:)
...he never told anyone it was a buck-and-a-quarter quarterstaff. Dodge, parry, thrust, spin - SPLASH, GGG
Painful! :-D
It seems to me that wizards are boy scouts, as they should have the same motto: always be prepared. A wizard shouldn't go anywhere or do anything without giving it a little thought first. Find out about the region you're travelling through, the people, customs, weather at a time of year, local monsters, etc. Have a strategy to deal with it. Always have a contingency if you get ambushed, or attacked from the air, or something like that. A wizard caught by surprise is a dead mage.
Use your massive Knowledge modifier, and those divinations you get. Be friends with the rogue, who can Gather Information, and the cleric, who's quite possibly as good, or better, at divinations as you. Then use that knowledge to you advantage, and have a near-unbeatable spell array prepared.
For this reason, wizards are obviously best suited for lawful alignments. Want to be chaotic, spontaneous, and flamboyant? Play a sorcerer, who has the charisma to pull it off. Either that, or "prepare for every situation": always have every spell you know in either potion, wand, scroll, or prepared form. That way, no matter what, you can do something, unless you have nothing in your whole repetoire to help. But, that gets really expensive, and is no where near as practical as taking the time to just use a little forethought.
Wizards appear, to me, to really be the most complex to play. Many people equate (correctly or not) fighters to the simplest class, and the best for beginners. Wizards are the polar opposite.
I would adjust familiars to make them more useful, to balance that I would also have them siphon of xp - between - 10 - 25%
I think that would limit who chose them as well as merit something really special for those who did.
I also think their should be more impact to specialization.
Maybe a feat that doesn't change the levle of the spell but that can be apllied to spells from that school.
|
so he never told anyone it was a buck-and-a-quarter quarterstaff.
Dodge, parry, thrust, spin - SPLASH,
GGG
You forgot Ho ha ha Guard, Turn...
Seriously though, I hav to agree with Chris' rules. Although I would go easy on the number two. Let's face it. If you're a wizard, you should be doing your best to minimize the number of times an enemy gets close enough to hit you.
he Wiz/Sor debate comesdown to one thing for me. Is it a one shot adventure, or a campaign? For a single adventure go with the Sor. For everthing else it's the Wizard. I love the survival tips above. Here are some I've used in the past.
The proper use of divination spells prior to an adventure and again in the adventure (scrolls) are priceless. Know your enemy.
Be the secret weapon. Strap a sword to your side and wear pants for God's sake. Everyone shoots at the guy in robes first. Those bandits grouped to charge the little party of fighters will have an "Oh sh!t" moment when they see the firball coming at them.
Be badder than you are. Performance, Bluff cost extra, but they're cool. Use those with some illusions and turn your 4th level into a 10th. For this, play the role. Oak staff: magic? someday. Fine robes: expensive but required. Lots of flash and bang: alchemy is your friend here. Let your enemy feel fear.
Most importantly, cast outside the box. Magic Missle, Fireball, Lightening Bolt. Effective? Yes. Boring? Very.
Look at your spells as one, two punches. Set and Spike. Use your surroundings to help your spells have more impact. Be creative and keep your enemy guessing.
Be the secret weapon. Strap a sword to your side and wear pants for God's sake. Everyone shoots at the guy in robes first. Those bandits grouped to charge the little party of fighters will have an "Oh sh!t" moment when they see the firball coming at them.
One of my players had a gnome wizard once who did this very thing. He made sure he dressed in traditional "rogue" garment, and kept two wands at his side, which were enchanted to look like short swords. No one ever saw the Scorching Ray coming. Not to mention, he found extremenly good uses for numerous illusion spells. He could scare off and entire group of hobgoblins by using his dancing lights and ghost sound to convince them a wraith had appeared to kill them all.
I love the survival tips above. Here are some I've used in the past.
Be the secret weapon. Strap a sword to your side and wear pants for God's sake.
Ach, damn the pants! It's kilts and 'airly legs or it's crap!
Where's me familiar? 'Ere Caber!, 'ere Caber!
GGG
Great thread. I've thought that the arcane casters still need a little tweaking in 3.x after all the good stuff done for the warrior and divine classes. i really haven't had many players run arcane casters except as cohorts or as replacement PC's for characters lost at mid-levels. i've run a wizard once and found i mainly was acting as tactical consultant once my few spells were spent. which was ok, but... i'm considering a few house rules in my campaign and could use input...
I personally run wizards as written, with the only changes being that specialization only requires one prohibited school, and their bonus feats can be anything I approve of that's directly related to magic/lore.
... divine casters have just as powerful spells, and just as many levels of them, and more per day, than wizards.
I think i'm going to try allowing wizards Specialization with NO prohibited schools. Clerics get a bonus domain spell so why shouldn't a wizard have a Major field of study (school) without loosing a chunk of available spells. These are brainy folks, right? i don't think a bonus spell is going to hurt much.
also, i currently consider all cantrips to be mastered and recalled from memory. if you haven't learned your cantrips by first level wizard you need to find a new class.i think 4 hours sleep to re-memorize spells is adequate. works for elves anyway and who ever gets a full 8 hours anyway? plus it slows the game down.
i'm kinda leaning toward d6 HD min for all adventurers as mentioned above, but understand the take on glass-jawed mages. really though what else has d4 HD except an asthmatic Fey?
finally, i really don't like xp cost for the Crafting Magic Item Feats. i understand not wanting mages to become little ACME wand factories, but it's a drag. there ought to be some sort of point system tied to the feat and caster level.
ok, that's all the heresy i can handle for now.
To be short:
If you are rolling up a wizard/sorcerer and you get two 18's, put one in Strength and invest in Improved Grapple and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). They won't know what hit them.
:)
G-Cube
To be short:
If you are rolling up a wizard/sorcerer and you get two 18's, put one in Strength and invest in Improved Grapple and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). They won't know what hit them.
:)
G-Cube
And if it's a wizard hitting them with that, even one with 18 Str, they won't care, either. :)
To be short:
If you are rolling up a wizard/sorcerer and you get two 18's, put one in Strength and invest in Improved Grapple and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). They won't know what hit them.
:)
G-Cube
On the following round they'll hit back; they can then examine the corpse at their leisure to figure out what hit them :)
Jack
PS definitely put that extra 18 into Dex -- if you have fireball and they have a battle axe, first one to the draw wins :)
...I love the survival tips above. Here are some I've used in the past...
Let your enemy feel fear.
My favorite, and certainly the most important in real life :)
Jack
PS definitely put that extra 18 into Dex -- if you have fireball and they have a battle axe, first one to the draw wins :)
Sorry Jack, doesn't fit the concept of a burly viking magic-user blacksmith with arms like tree trunks and so much hair you would swear he was wearing furry long-johns. ;) 'Sides at first level with Toughness and a descent Con he can give as good as he takes. And no fireball, you know how bad that is for the environment? :)
Perhaps if I where thinking of a dextrous wizard with levels in scout or ranger, duel weilding finessed daggers. Actually that's fairly decent too. Lot's of Knowledge (Nature), but maybe no Arcana. Access to haste later on. Animal companion and familiar....
Anyway the point isn't really to min-max (unless you belong to the RPGA). The point of most role-playing games is to have fun with friends and get some cool war stories in return. If every wizard has a monstered out Int, Con, and Dex they all start to look alike. So why not change the formula and try for something interesting?
I had a first-level wizard in a game who was rather flamboyant and while being chased through a busy marketplace during a festival by a pair of thugs he mounted a horse and sped through the crowd firing flame bolts (Swords and Sorcery) over his shoulder. He knocked one off his horse, but the second one gallopped after him right onto the jousting grounds in front of all the nobles and everything. He didn't have any skill in lance but he was kinda betting the same was true of my antagonist. We got one pass in (complete miss all around) before the guards came. The wizard even got a scarf from one of the ladies in the audience. He had a Con of 10, and a decent Dex, but Cha, and Wis where his fortes. Sure one hit and I'm dead, but isn't that the point of not doing stuff like that in real life? Besides it was kinda scary.
Hmmm, how about a dopey wizard whose known spells are left to chance and die rolls. Or a Sailormoon-style wizard with a heart-shaped wand and lots of summoning spells ("I choose you celestial badger!")? Or how about the "hairy blacksmith wizard" dressed up that way?
Try and get that out of your head.... ;)
GGG
Sorry Jack, doesn't fit the concept of a burly viking magic-user blacksmith with arms like tree trunks and so much hair you would swear he was wearing furry long-johns. ;) ...
Truth be told, I just want to be able to run away -- give me Dex any day :)
Sometimes, discretion is the only part of valor.
Jack
To be short:
If you are rolling up a wizard/sorcerer and you get two 18's, put one in Strength and invest in Improved Grapple and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). They won't know what hit them.
:)
G-Cube
Or, if you got the cash and a few levels under your belt, invest in a skillful weapon. It gives you proficiency with /that/ weapon and cleric attack bonus. Cast a fist of stone for a better Str boost than Bull's Str, and voila. You can hit someone, and /hard/ if they dare try to close to melee. ;>