Completely out of left field... but I'm wondering if this might bother anyone else?
There seems to be a trend in DnD artwork (not sure how recent, but a fairly long time now) where the ears of Elvish characters are *really* super pointy, and they're all depicted to be rather short as a people. Does this seem odd to anyone else?
I suppose when I think of "elves" - their height or their ears - I usually think of LOTR elves from either the cartoons or movies (even the recent LOTR movie!), or maybe even something akin to vulcans from Star Trek. I've never really pictured them as being short. To the contrary, I've always thought of elves as being rather taller than humans.
For DnD art, my "picture" of an elf would be a lot more like the way half-elves are depicted in DnD: at least as tall as humans, with mildly pointed ears. And not having the really long 4-5" tapering ear-points... these in particular seem far too exaggerated, more like how I'd envision tiny Fey creatures from the brothers Grimm.
In creating the elves for DnD, was this a conscious decision? Was it to perhaps make them intentionally different from other games, books or movies? In my games, I usually just tell my players about "my world's" difference in elves from the standard PH descriptions in DnD. But I'm curious if the usual DnD artwork for elves has bothered anyone else. I don't mean to start a weird war or anything... I'm really just curious about others' impressions and the reasons for the difference.
Elves in Greyhawk are shorter than humans but taller than dwarves. Not sure why, could just be a way to distinguish them from Tolkien's elves, dispite resembling them in many other ways. In both the Forgotten Realms and DragonLance elves are actually suppose to be the same height (if not taller) than humans, drow being the exception in FR.
I have always pictured elves ears as a bit larger and more pointed than in the LOTR movies, but not quite as large as some of the D&D illustrations make them. LOTR ears to me look more like half elven ears.
I have to agree with you that ears are getting longer and pointier every year.
However, elves in standard D&D are definitely shorter than humans.
Male humans average 5' 9"
Male elves average 5' 0"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm
Human, male 4' 10" +2d10
Human, female 4' 5" +2d10
Elf, male 4' 5" +2d6
Elf, female 4' 5" +2d6
D&D PHB description of elves has always had them shorter than humans, with half-elves somewhere in between the two. Drow are shorter still than surface elves. Of course, it's just the standard size, so you can still have anomolies like you have in any race, but it's a direct contrast with Tolkien where elves are supposed to be slightly taller (though leaner) than humans.
Of course, elves in traditional mythology tend to be diminutive. More like halflings or even smaller.
I think that might be why FR elves ended up being taller than standard D&D elves. Ed started writing his stories before he played D&D, thus was more influenced by Tolkien. To be completely honest though, I never knew DragonLance elves were suppose to be tall until I read that the Qualinesti looked down on Gilthas in part becuase his short stature was one of the things that marked him as less than a full blooded elf.
I do think it's pretty cool that FR has human-height elves. I haven't read really much of Dragonlance... that's aweome! This gives me a whole new set of books to read.
I also suspect that the increase in ear pointiness might be an attempt to put more "Fey" back into the elves... but I just can't get my Tolkien iconic for elves out of the way. Maybe I should start viewing the Greyhawk elves as being closer to the Fey creatures than perhaps other worlds' elves?
That might be an interesting idea, actually. Isn't there a group of Greyhawk elves that looks a little more humanish (Valley elves or something)? Maybe those valley elves are a bit more like the elves of FR and perhaps Dragonlance? In FR, the book / history by Elaine Cunningham (Evermeet, I think), suggests that many (most?) of the elves come from other worlds. Perhaps different worlds could have slightly different ontogenetic effects on elves' biology?
Elves, trolls, goblins, gnomes, leprechauns... The general descriptions of all these fairy-like creatures differ greatly from culture to culture. In some cultures (like french), goblin and leprechaun and even elf are synonyms (goblin, farfadet, elfe). Gnome and troll could also be used as the same word. I guess they are what we make them to be because, after all, they were also part of someones' imagination in the old days.
Some even think elves live inside trees and bake cookies... I've tasted them and their pretty good!
Ultradan
Yeah, according to Evermeet, the elves that live in Toril actually came from a world that was doomed to a cataclysm, so they worked a major spell that created a gateway to the very young world of Toril. When they got there, they found there were already Wild Elves, Lythari, and Avarials, and the Illithiri (what would become the drow) came later.
Does anyone know how the elves were described in Tolkien's works? I remember them being taller than humans; I don't remember any references to their ears (pointed or not).
Also, remember how the elves looked in the animated Hobbit movie - those were some UGLY looking elves.
Does anyone know how the elves were described in Tolkien's works? I remember them being taller than humans; I don't remember any references to their ears (pointed or not). Also, remember how the elves looked in the animated Hobbit movie - those were some UGLY looking elves.
Elves per Tolkien were over 6 ft. tall, and they had pointed ears - though this was questioned for quite a while. But if I remember correctly, the reference for pointy ears wasn't until Tolkien's The Lost Road. Can't remember the reference for the height of elves offhand. But in the Rolemaster-like adaptation for Middle Earth Roleplaying (MERP), they were very tall, thin, and graceful with pointy ears. Just not as pointy as in modern DnD's illustrations.
I like the pointy ears and human level height.
It means that weapons, mounts, dwellings etc work for both, and their is more than enough range in normal variation for tailoring.
The bigger issue for me with elves is life span. If you had a a dozen decades of education and practice at something anything prior to reaching maturity, as opposed to a decade and a half, it seems that a clever individual should have a base of knowledge and experience that a human (or any other short lived race would have trouble matching.
Yes I am aware that humans and halflings are described as more aggressive learners - 12 decades to maturity compared to 1.5 is a BIG difference.
Does anybody else struggle with this?
Does anybody else care?
I noticed the severe pointy ears and shrinking stature myself (and was not pleased with it) but D&D artists have also been flirting with something akin to Japanese Anime' style of art/Manga cartooning (though thankfully they seem to be coming out of that phase) - none of which appeals to me.
Greyhawk (basic D&D) elves have typically been described as shorter than humans but I have always minimized this fact - the elves in my campaign aren't notably shorter than humans (in such a way that tailored clothes would be necessary) but averaging, say, around 5'4" - 5'6" for elven males. They are just light-framed; "petite". I too picture them in a Tolkien-ish way. Elven ears are pointed like they are in the recent LOTR movies with half-elves ears only mildly more pointy than humans. Half-elves IMC can pretty easily pass as human - only close inspection reveals their elvish blood.
On the second point about elven knowledge - I agree that the current "official" take on elven base knowledge seems a bit skewed to me and has always irked me a tiny bit (though not enough to come up with any real system to fix it). My only point is that all elves IMC have automatic knowledge(history). You don't have to study (under my theory) to recognize/remember events or chief NPCs that occurred in one's own lifetime. This also spreads over to your parents or grandparents' lifetimes. My father fought in WWII and if I never read a single history book, I knew quite a bit about the war (from his perspective anyway) and had heard many of his stories numerous times by the time I was a teenager. Why should an elf be any different?
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Take them as you will.
I've toyed with the idea that elves (and other long lived races) matured about the same time as humans; but when they reached maturity, their extended process would kick in (similar to the Baku in Star Trek: Insurrection)
I noticed the severe pointy ears and shrinking stature myself (and was not pleased with it) but D&D artists have also been flirting with something akin to Japanese Anime' style of art/Manga cartooning (though thankfully they seem to be coming out of that phase) - none of which appeals to me. (...) I too picture them in a Tolkien-ish way. Elven ears are pointed like they are in the recent LOTR movies with half-elves ears only mildly more pointy than humans. Half-elves IMC can pretty easily pass as human - only close inspection reveals their elvish blood.
That's the approach I've usually taken. The anime-manga angle didn't occur to me, because I never buy anime or manga, but I think you're exactly right: some of the 3.5-elvish art looks very anime!
In one of the Sembia (F. Realms) novels, they have one half-elf that can completely pass for human, and another that looks essentially the same as a wood-elf. I thought that was interesting, as it suggests that pointy ears are perhaps akin to a recessive (or non-dominant?) genetic trait. I liked the general idea on this.
On the second point about elven knowledge - I agree that the current "official" take on elven base knowledge seems a bit skewed to me ... My only point is that all elves IMC have automatic knowledge(history). You don't have to study (under my theory) to recognize/remember events or chief NPCs that occurred in one's own lifetime. ...
I like this approach, actually. Seems like there should be quite a few additional racial / skill benefits from living decades prior to one's adventuring career, beyond what's mentioned in the PH. On the other hand, I've never played an elf that didn't start out "really young" (e.g. in their 30-50s), so I think I've (and the DMs I've played with since the late 1970s) have unconsciously taken the "development" approach suggested above by thorindale and Kyr.
But if one does take into account 10-12 decades of learning, assuming that elves' children aren't just playing on the jungle gym all day (wouldn't that be excellent, for 100 years?), what kinds of benefits should one have as an elf? Seems like they should be akin to the dark elves, perhaps with a 1-2 level enhancement bonus, and a set of extras. If you did have a +1 or +2, what should be added? Perhaps 1-2 lvls in "expert", or allow these players a level or two in something that makes sense for their backstory?