Just flicking through the adventure and I couldn't but help notice that Velikar one of the BBEG at the end of the adventure seems a little rough on a party of level 12 adventurer's.
Valiker is listed as CR 13, but as he is a Hill Giant with 12 levels of Cleric shouldn't his CR be 19 (Hill GIant CR7 + 12 level sof cleric) rather than 13?
Isn't that a little rough on a party of level 12? Is this a typo or is it correct? Or am i calculating his CR wrong?
TIA
Valiker is listed as CR 13, but as he is a Hill Giant with 12 levels of Cleric shouldn't his CR be 19 (Hill GIant CR7 + 12 levels of cleric) rather than 13?
No, you're miscalculating the CR.
As of the 3.5 Monster Manual, "associated" class levels for a monster add to CR at a 1:1 ratio, while "non-associated" class levels add to CR at a 2:1 ratio. As Valiker's base creature is a hill giant, the primary purpose of which is to smash stuff, fighter levels would have been associated, while cleric levels are not. Thus 12 levels of cleric -> CR (7 + 12/2) = CR 13.
Now, this system can be somewhat problematic, as it demonstrates that the present CR system over-rewards characters for defeating classed NPCs-- I don't think anyone I know would claim that a 13th level human cleric and Valiker are truly comparable opponents, even in light of the instant-kill effects 7th level cleric spells offer. Just by virtue of extra hit points and battle prowess, a monster advanced in a non-associated class is likely to prove a much bigger challenge than a human of 'equivalent' CR.
Just flicking through the adventure and I couldn't but help notice that Velikar one of the BBEG at the end of the adventure seems a little rough on a party of level 12 adventurer's.
Valiker is listed as CR 13, but as he is a Hill Giant with 12 levels of Cleric shouldn't his CR be 19 (Hill GIant CR7 + 12 level sof cleric) rather than 13?
Isn't that a little rough on a party of level 12? Is this a typo or is it correct? Or am i calculating his CR wrong?
TIA
In 3.5 the CR is adjusted based on whether the additional PC class levels play into the strength of the monster.
ADDING CLASS LEVELS
If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities.Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.
The CR is calculated based on the base CR of the Hill Giant = 7 plus 1/2 of the clerics (12/2 = 6) for a total of 13. Any more cleric levels would directly add 1 to the CR for each level of cleric because the hit dice of cleric would now exceed the original hit dice of the giant.
For Giants I would assume Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger levels (any class with a +1 BAB progression) would be considered associated classes for Giants while the rest of the PC classes are considered nonassociated.
Thansk for the replies. I re-read that bit in the back of the 3.5 MM. I must admit I find the "non associated" to be unbalanced to say the least. It's not balanced in anyway or form. I think i'll stick to my house rule, 1 character class level = +1 to CR regardless.
Using the Velikar example. He's a CR13 creature. If you used an associated class he could have 6 levels of Fighter for example with the follwoing benefits, +6 to his BAB, +6d10 HP, +5/+2/+2 to his F/R/W saves + 4 fighter feats and +2 general feats. Or he can be a 12th level Cleric (+9 to his BAB, +12d8 HP, +8/+4/+8 to his F/R/W saves, 4 addiotnal feats, + all attendant ans spell casting capabilities of this class).
I'm Sorry, but no way earth do they represent the same sort of challenge to PC's. Guess thats another house rule to be added. Its just too much of an exploit. I wasn't aware of this change i thought it was always on a +1 for 1 basis regardless of character class.
Thansk for the replies. I re-read that bit in the back of the 3.5 MM. I must admit I find the "non associated" to be unbalanced to say the least. It's not balanced in anyway or form. I think i'll stick to my house rule, 1 character class level = +1 to CR regardless.
Using the Velikar example. He's a CR13 creature. If you used an associated class he could have 6 levels of Fighter for example with the follwoing benefits, +6 to his BAB, +6d10 HP, +5/+2/+2 to his F/R/W saves + 4 fighter feats and +2 general feats. Or he can be a 12th level Cleric (+9 to his BAB, +12d8 HP, +8/+4/+8 to his F/R/W saves, 4 addiotnal feats, + all attendant ans spell casting capabilities of this class).
I'm Sorry, but no way earth do they represent the same sort of challenge to PC's. Guess thats another house rule to be added. Its just too much of an exploit. I wasn't aware of this change i thought it was always on a +1 for 1 basis regardless of character class.
Using this example, I would have to agree. Maybe the house rule would be having associated classes be +1 CR, non-associated classes +3/4 CR. Cleric being non-associated in this case making this a CR 16.
heh no pun intended Greg, but he still is a bitof a monster to a party of level 12 adventurers:) Definite TPK potential even as an 8th elvel cleric.
PS: Keep up the good work, great adventure btw. Again like the nods to the past especially the little sister encounter. That was always one of my favourite random encounters from Against the Giants, Big Johann riding into town on his wooly mammoth.
Also Veliakr being the son of the "The Keeper" the deformed huncback from the original adventure was a nice touch.
More kudos on the Big Johann connection - definitely one of the most memorable encounters in memory :)
The "Abyss" trio are very, very cool. Keep 'em coming.
My players hate me.
They were able to penetrate Velikar's fortress using the spell Invisibility Sphere, well, up until they set off the rubble trap. In the mouth of the fortress, they handled Velikars giant troops and the tigers with greater ease than I thought. This tactic by the PCs meant that the giants that would have fired their large crossbows from the 2nd level of the fort, now would stage an ambush from that respective room. The heroes killed them pretty easily also.
So I had a decision to make; does Velikar stand around and wait to fight a group of adventurers who was able to slay his entire force - alone? Or is their strength in numbers? Velikar is not only powerful, but intelligent as well. It made sense to me that he would make sure that he and Asiroxus would face the PCs together and have a better chance of survival. When the PCs decended into Asiroxus' cave to face both enemies, the fight was on. Two round later, the PCs decided to bargain for their life; Velikar and Asiroxus made quick work of the adventurers (5 PCs levels 12-14). The PCs had to sacrifice 25% of all coinage carried and one magic item per player of Asiroxus' choice. ***You can't kill eveyone all the time - sometimes you have to negotiate.***
Gleodites on the other hand - this guy had a death wish! :)
The PCs have recently dealt with the Malgoth, and now turn their attention to Velikar and Asiroxus (a potential more powerful foe): hopefully for the last time.
I know this is old but is probably still an issue and I just noticed it in my #118 last night as I was reading it over-
cr-13 is way way too low. Every other giant/cleric I have seen in any module, treated the levels as complimentary so the cr should be 18.
BUT
This isn't right either because this guy will get smoked by a bunch of 18th level characters.
The solution-
Take whatever class/monster hd, etc... that provides the least cr and add half of that to the cr of the creature so in this case a 12th cleric is cr-12 and a hill giant is cr-7. So add 12 plus 7/2, round down and you get a cr of 15 which is just about right for the challenge level provided by this NPC. This should alleviate alot of problems for everyone, let hop they make it RAW in 4.0 :)
That has to be the coolest trio ever. Me and my players say thank you. Do you think there is anyway for the Malgoth to come back? I got them all paranoid from it.
After stumbling on this thread yesterday, I had to reread Dungeon 118 and browse GDQ 1-7 to appreciate the adventure. A nice touch was the return of Mad Amos, too. (GDQ 1-7,p 19).
And adding a few level of ranger surely fits the idea for this character. Well written, again.
Stefan
That has to be the coolest trio ever. Me and my players say thank you. Do you think there is anyway for the Malgoth to come back? I got them all paranoid from it.You are very welcome. I'm glad it was a hit with your guys. Let's just say the Malgoth still lives somewhere in the depths of my mind. At one point in time I had some rough notes for a follow-up adventure (or three). I may have to dig them out sometime and take a whack at it. After all, we've still never seen where the Malgoth used to live.
Everyone write to Erik Mona, courtesy of Paizo, and demand such an adventure(s). Perhaps he'll make me an offer I can't refuse. :-)
Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions.
****Shameless Plug Alert****
For more unbalanced giant-clerics and giants of just about every other sort, be sure and catch "Kings of the Rift" in the adventure path coming this spring from Dungeon magazine.
(Teaser: If it passes the editorial test, there's another GDQ tie-in for you old-school gamers out there.)
1: I think its really cool we may have some more Malgoth action... I pictured him living on the 666 layer of the Abyss.
2: Mr. Erik, accept this and I will suscribe for a longgggggg time.
3: Kings of the rift seems really cool. I told everyone you were writing it and the got exited.
4: Would the Malgoth in latin translation be Mal: bad and Goth: Demon... hmm letting those stem tests get to me.
Goth = demon???
"Goth" means "German" or "Germanic" in Latin.
Malgoth = "bad German" :)
Goth = demon???
"Goth" means "German" or "Germanic" in Latin.
Malgoth = "bad German" :)
Daddy spank!
GGG
Goth = demon???
"Goth" means "German" or "Germanic" in Latin.
Malgoth = "bad German" :)
lol... The Malgoth is medival you know who.
I guess I need to get my stems better. I mean gothics seem kinda demonish and gothic style is all pointey, lol
but yes, it does sound cool.
****Shameless Plug Alert****
For more unbalanced giant-clerics and giants of just about every other sort, be sure and catch "Kings of the Rift" in the adventure path coming this spring from Dungeon magazine.
All I can say, having seen the first draft is 'wow'.
Rich
You are very welcome. I'm glad it was a hit with your guys. Let's just say the Malgoth still lives somewhere in the depths of my mind. At one point in time I had some rough notes for a follow-up adventure (or three). I may have to dig them out sometime and take a whack at it. After all, we've still never seen where the Malgoth used to live.
Let me add my name to your fanclub then. The trilogy of adventures inspired me to write a whole campaign around it. Funilly enough, the party entered Istivin last night (ok, actually they entered Newthrone in Eberron thanks to a transplant, but you get the idea).
It pretty much freaked them out :)
All I can say is ... more ... more ... more ...
Cheers, Chris.
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The trilogy of adventures inspired me to write a whole campaign around it.
Agreed here. My PCs, currently 5th level, are just now uncovering the nefarious plots of a bad-heiney wizard who they already think is going to end up the BBEG of the campaign. Turns out, this guy is just the Harbinger, the demented almost-priest of his Dark Lord who just happens to be the Malgoth. As it happens, 'Ol Mal is influencing (but not directly posessing) the wizard, as an attempt to have himself resurrected in physical form (I know, been watching too much Harry Potter, but it just works SO WELL!!!)
When the PCs bust up the "Big Ritual" that the wizard is trying to put together, they will know its tied to bringing back an ancient evil, but not exactly who or what. That'll be about 10th level. At that point, the PCs get a letter from their family in Istivin, asking them to come home. Things have been going badly and a family member has disappeared. By the time they get there (long travel time with an adventure along the way), 'Ol Mally will have tired of influencing and decided to go the actual possession route and the REAL adventure will begin!!
Interesting Fact 1: the PC who is from Istivin is actually related to the Malgoth, being the child of a man who assaulted a young woman while posessed in a previous plot over 20 years ago. He is currently gaining abilities based on the fiendish bloodline from Unearthed Arcana.
Interesting Fact 2: That PC is a paladin with no idea of his heritage. Looking for a fun "whos your daddy" scene in a later adventure.
The solution-Take whatever class/monster hd, etc... that provides the least cr and add half of that to the cr of the creature so in this case a 12th cleric is cr-12 and a hill giant is cr-7. So add 12 plus 7/2, round down and you get a cr of 15 which is just about right for the challenge level provided by this NPC. This should alleviate alot of problems for everyone, let hop they make it RAW in 4.0 :)
I'm in total agreement with this solution. By the time the other class has overtaken the monster's hit dice in levels, one should be thinking of the monster hit dice as the unassociated levels, not the other way around.
To make the case even more plain with an argument of extremes, consider an ogre shaman* at level 20. If we don't shift the focus to his class levels, he's a CR13 monster with all the abilities of a CR20 NPC and then some. Calling the cleric levels his "primary class" and counting his unassociated class (his racial hit dice) for half, we come up with CR21, which seems right.
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* Shaman, Cleric, Spirit Shaman, whatever.
Creative Director
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To make the case even more plain with an argument of extremes, consider an ogre shaman* at level 20. If we don't shift the focus to his class levels, he's a CR13 monster with all the abilities of a CR20 NPC and then some. Calling the cleric levels his "primary class" and counting his unassociated class (his racial hit dice) for half, we come up with CR21, which seems right.
Remember that a monster's class levels are automaticaly considered to be associated once the number of levels equals his racial hit dice.
Using the CR guidelines as detailed in the Monster Manual, the ogre's first 4 levels of cleric are non-associated. Once his cleric levels equal his Hit Dice, those levels become associated. Thus, a 20th-level ogre cleric's CR would be 21 (as you deduced using your system) and not a paltry CR 13.
We used the same system to determine the hill giant cleric's CR in "Shadow of the Abyss." The hill giant's base CR is 7. He's got 12 racial HD, so his first 12 levels of cleric count as .5 each for increasing his CR. Therefore, a 12th-level hill-giant cleric has a CR of 13.
In any event, no matter what method you use to estimate a classed monster's CR, you should adjust it as you see fit. I've said it before and I'll say it again—assigning a CR to a monster is more of an art than it is a science. In my opinion, the hill giant cleric in "Shadow of the Abyss" is either a high 13 or a low 14—in the end, we went with 13.
Will the Kings of the Rift be scaled for the survivors of the epic battle with the Malgoth? I've got a party of 13-14th level characters on hold while we do AOW, but it would be really cool to pick the story back up where they left off. The Shadow of the Abyss was a really awesome adventure arc!
Its TOUGH!
Oh, its so TOUGH...
I've been lucky enough to see the draft, its very reminiscent of the old days of D&D with a healthy spice of 3.5. Totally infuriatingly talented cad that he is one has to doff ones cap to him.
Totally infuriatingly talented cad that he is one has to doff ones cap to him.I have no idea what he just said.
It was a compliment, you might consider easing the reigns of your attack ropers in gratitude for such a thing ;)
But then, even if you don't, Richard is likely to compliment you anyway. He's nice that way.
- Ashavan
Totally infuriatingly talented cad that he is one has to doff ones cap to him.I have no idea what he just said.It was a compliment, you might consider easing the reigns of your attack ropers in gratitude for such a thing ;)
But then, even if you don't, Richard is likely to compliment you anyway. He's nice that way.
- Ashavan
Why do you think he's so nice? It's because he's scared...scared of ropers, that is. Heh, heh
Hey, Richard! What's that on your shoulder, a tentacle? D'oh, it's just some silly string. You can stop screaming now. Heh, heh.
Honestly,
you try to compliment a chap in the Queens English and he claims its incomprehensible.
Don't worry Ash, the mans ropers have been seen off by a couple of triceratop topiary guardians I've hired in for the weekend. Now there is nothing to fear.
Plus, here's all grumpy and nervous because he knows Prince of Redhand is miles better than Hateful Legacy. Hang on, whats that noise? Oh no it can't be - its rop
Leave it to the Queen to turn English into a whole other language. :)
And as to that bit about the so-called "Prince" of Redhand.
All I can say is that I playtested that sucker and did everything I could to save it. However, we can only mold so much out of the clay we are given to work with.
My prediction--Redhand voted worst chapter in the AP. Hateful Legacy voted most-wished that it could have been a chapter in the AP (specifically in place of Redhand).
Say that hedge wasn't there a minute ago, wha--
Ah, the hasty grammar of a nervous adversary! 'tis music to my ears. And now, my dinosauric/privet/fiends to work - ignore his pleas for clemency and let your vegetation-based wrath commence!
'All my embarrassingly bad grammer aside, the prince of Redhand...'
Yawn...
'So the whole Prince of Redhand adventure is just awash in controversy.'
Yawwwwn...
'I really don't know why anyone would even read it. In fact it'd probably be best for everyone to just read The Hateful Legacy twice in its place. In fact, everyone might as well buy two copies of the issue so that when they reread The Hateful Legacy it'll be fresh to them (okay Erik asked me to put in that last part, I can be shill too, ya know).'
Biggest Yawwwwwwwwn...
I think the giant dire flumph has some mileage though, although it doesn't unmake you as a cad, you cad.
Prince will be crowned prince of dungeon #131 (unless of course skip williams takes that honour). Your ramblings are just so much nervous babbling. And give me back what's left of my topiary guardians so I can remake them as hedge-cutting golems.
Oooohhh, they don't make typos across the pond.
They were delicious with a little balsamic vingrette and croutons.
Prince will be crowned prince of dungeon #131 (unless of course skip williams takes that honour). Your ramblings are just so much nervous babbling. And give me back what's left of my topiary guardians so I can remake them as hedge-cutting golems.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
Gotta love croutons...
Thanks for the response Greg. I've neither owned, nor read Monte's connection of Tharizdun and the EEG. It sounds like tracking the RtToEE will be worthwhile.
PS - It's been fun starting to visit these fora, especially with events such as "Prince of Redhand vs. The Hateful Legacy --Dungeon 131 Steel Cage Death Match." ;)
Foregone conclusion:)...
Sorry if this comes a bit late. One thing I noticed from the Istivin series is that Velikar has outstanding stats. Far above any other characters in most Dungeon adventures. I think this alone could have governed a +1 CR boost.