I am considering running a homebrew game where casters could potentially cast from different mental ability scores, and I'm wondering if I'll run into any significant issues with this. I know there are some archetypes that let you do this, such as sorcerers that cast from wisdom instead of charisma. The oracle is basically this for clerics.
Specifically the class I'm looking at doing this with is Inquisitors who would be casting using charisma. I have fairly decent story reasons for allowing this.
Now the obvious issue I would run into is that spells say specifically what ability modifier to add to your spell when that is applicable, but on the oracle page on d20pfsrd there is a FAQ that explains you can houserule change the cleric spells to apply your charisma modifier instead. Thoughts?
it shouldn't most casters in game have an archetype that lets them cast from another ability score i wouldnt see any harm with allowing vanilla casters to do it only thing that might get iffy is if an archetype starts to put to much focus into one ability score.
also would this apply to casters or caster like classes that use physical scores as well? and would barbarians get to choose which 2 stats their rage boosts? if you allow one group of classes to key off of another stat you should allow every one to do so.
I think it would probably be locked into mental scores for casting. Some others im bouncing around in my head are Int Shamans and Wis Bard/Skalds (I like these less because they seem generally less suited to the class, and bards/skalds with a wisdom base for casting would have to decide whether to focus on charisma for performing or wisdom for better spells and that's not a great choice!) Although I definitely see a benefit for letting rage apply to dex now that I'm thinking about it. I just dont know how broken the game could get if I start letting people change whatever ability scores they like.
Are you letting your players choose what ability they'll be using or just changing it to a defined ability score for everybody?
As it seems you are doing it from a roleplaying perspective and have a good reason for it.
Making the inquisitors cast with CHA doesn't seem abusive at all. Potentially, they will be losing Will saves and doing better in social situations.
I don't think that changing the casting ability will be game breaking and if it's fitting for your campaign go with it.
Are you letting your players choose what ability they'll be using or just changing it to a defined ability score for everybody?
Hoo boy that's a tough question without a ton of context required. The short version is it's an archetype available to players. The long version is going to get posted in this homebrew forum at some point because it's a whole topic in itself, I'm just working out the finer details at the moment.
I think every class should be evaluated. Spellcasters are designed around what ability score they cast from. Switching a them can be a significant buff to the class.
I, for one, have long desired an INT cleric. I doubt it would present a ton of problems, just make sure to replace class abilities where appropriate.
And perhaps then the Divine Strategist archetype will be worth a damn.
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Charge a feat!
Alternate Magic Source
Prerequisite: Must be a 1st level character
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class you have levels in and a mental ability score (INT, WIS, or CHA). Spellcasting from your chosen class is hereafter keyed to this ability score (including determining bonus spells, spell DCs, and concentration checks). Once chosen, this cannot be changed.
More feat taxes? I dont think it makes the game very interesting. If you're going to do it, use a trait at most.
More feat taxes? I dont think it makes the game very interesting. If you're going to do it, use a trait at most.
It's not a feat tax if it's a significant and useful boost. Every existing game option that lets you swap a casting ability score costs an option of some kind. Even the arcane (sage) wild bloodline requires you to give up your bloodline arcana and replace the arcane bond power with a less useful one.
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If a player wants to change their magic's key ability score from what's written at the start of the game, that should be fine (after all, I've always wanted to do this with Sorcerers, since I never agreed with the decision to make their magic Charisma-based). They shouldn't be able to change it around willy-nilly after that, though.
I like the idea of prepared divine are wisdom, prepared arcane are int, and all spontaneous are cha, but the game messes this up with things like Paladins and Inquisitor.
I wouldn't change unless you are also going to change the casting type.
I changed an inquisitor in my game from Wis to Cha. No issues so far and as the GM it seems to work just fine.
If you have access to it, check out the "Spellcaster" from Unearthed Arcana's generic classes section. You simply choose exactly what kind of caster you want to be (Arcane/Divine), and which ability score you use (Int/Wis/Cha); They are always Spontaneous.
Obviously, said classes would need updating to use in Pathfinder, given that most classes got better. For example, the Spellcaster should get a d6 Hit Die, and the Expert a d8.
In place of the extant "Bonus Feats" system of the generic classes, simply give each class a "Class Talent" at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter; chosen from a list of game elements for the level the talent was taken. Major scaling class features would only be able to be selected at 1st level (such as Sneak Attack, Bombs, Companions (Animal, Eidolon, Homunculus, Mount, Phantom, etc...)
For example, a Spellcaster be allowed to choose any Oracle Revelation, Shaman/Witch Hex, and Metamagic, Spell Focus, or other spellcasting related feats as Class Talents at any level, but only be allowed to choose to have a Bloodline, Domain, or Arcane School, or an Animal Companion, Eidolon, Homunculus, or Phantom at 1st level.
An interrogator is an Inquisitor who specializes in questioning.. That not only makes charisma their prime spell stat, it makes social skills class skills, and adds a judgement, burning question. Everyone who the question is posed to, must will save or take 1 point of fire damage for every 2 levels of interrogator(round up) if they answer falsely. The interrogator can choose the target's foot, hand, hair, or even set their pants on fire. While each question counts as 1 judgement, the question can be directed at any number of creatures that can hear and understand.
I'm looking through the advanced players guide and I cannot find a feat for additional judgements.
Judgemental would give you one more judgement per day. You can take it any number of times, if you can use judgements, and you can spare the feats.
If a class doesn't have an "Extra" feat for one of its major abilities - the way Paladins don't have Extra Smite, for example - it's almost certainly intentional. Such powers tend to be fairly potent, and allowing extra uses could make the class more powerful than intended. It's best to respect that limit.
(Broadly, powers with a low, fixed number of uses tend to not get Extra feats, while those with a high, variable number of uses - such as 3 + Ability Mod per-day - probably will get an Extra feat.)
Probably not allowed for PFS, but for home games the GM can decide.
I'd be more careful of allowing casting from Int, frankly, than from Wis for a class currently based on Cha. It depends on how many Will saves PCs make, of course, but everyone in every game uses skill ranks!
If it were me, I'd dig up all of those casting-stat-changing archetypes and see if I could figure out how much they charge for the change. I mean, an archetype swaps things out, and the actual 1-for-1 for the casting stat might not sound like much, but then the next item down might cost a doozy.
Btw, oracles are not "clerics that use Cha." They're spontaneous clerics -- a big difference. An interesting class for comparison is the hunter, a spontaneous but Wis-based divine class.
As long as you you keep them in mental seems ok to me. I did see a third party class once that had a full caster with arcanist like ability's but their spells were based on con. I Think it may be one of the most OP things i've ever seen. since the 3.5 S&S time wizard.
Charisma is the weakest of the three mental stats in terms of sheer gameplay value; swapping any of the Int or Wis-based classes to Cha would be a minor nerf, so there's no need to worry there.
Charisma is the weakest of the three mental stats in terms of sheer gameplay value; swapping any of the Int or Wis-based classes to Cha would be a minor nerf, so there's no need to worry there.
As I said before, it depends on the class. For an arcanist or cleric, that's a significant buff because it makes them less MAD. And as some of the strongest classes in the game, these are classes that definitely don't need a buff.
Every class is designed around the ability scores they rely on. It's a bad idea to change the ability scores without considering the impact it has on a class.
Charisma is the weakest of the three mental stats in terms of sheer gameplay value; swapping any of the Int or Wis-based classes to Cha would be a minor nerf, so there's no need to worry there.As I said before, it depends on the class. For an arcanist or cleric, that's a significant buff because it makes them less MAD. And as some of the strongest classes in the game, these are classes that definitely don't need a buff.
Every class is designed around the ability scores they rely on. It's a bad idea to change the ability scores without considering the impact it has on a class.
Sure, so for an archetype, there has to be a trade-off. The archetype has to pay by losing a valuable class feature in exchange.
Charisma is the weakest of the three mental stats in terms of sheer gameplay value; swapping any of the Int or Wis-based classes to Cha would be a minor nerf, so there's no need to worry there.As I said before, it depends on the class. For an arcanist or cleric, that's a significant buff because it makes them less MAD. And as some of the strongest classes in the game, these are classes that definitely don't need a buff.
Every class is designed around the ability scores they rely on. It's a bad idea to change the ability scores without considering the impact it has on a class.
The Arcanist and Cleric are a good point I didn't consider; making them charisma-based would certainly have an impact on their overall power level. I would say those classes are the exception rather than the rule, however. An Inquisitor like the OP is asking about gets very little from pumping charisma over wisdom, especially since a face-oriented Inquisitor can just take the conversion inquisition.
It's best to stick to the established rules and quidelines. If an archetype alters a caster's ability usage, then that is one thing, but going your own way leads to disaster. Don't do it.
I'd be more careful of allowing casting from Int, frankly, than from Wis for a class currently based on Cha. It depends on how many Will saves PCs make, of course, but everyone in every game uses skill ranks!This is absolutely my experience with an Archeologist Bard that my DM let me use Int rather than Cha. With a 24 Int (+4 Headband) @ 14th, he has 168 skill points (FCB every level).
WHAT? I didn't look up Archeologist, but... but... that's...
Oh, you didn't mean 168 ranks/level, did you?
LOL for real. Maybe I should go to bed now.
If switching clerics to charisma casting, then just move their channels per day down to 1+charisma like the oracle gets.
The arcanist is a harder nut to crack. It's got charisma woven throughout its abilities. The shaman is in a similar situation.
i wouldn't say that that is necessary they have an archetype that makes them cha based without changing their channels per dayIf switching clerics to charisma casting, then just move their channels per day down to 1+charisma like the oracle gets.
I mean sure, but instead it only channels to harm and takes a -2 penalty to saves vs. mind-affecting effects which is much, much worse.