Kitsune Sorcerer (Enchantment Specialist) LV8


Advice


Could use advice on keeping him alive.

It's 20 pointbuy so stats will look like

STR:8 DEX:16 CON:12
INT:13 WIS:10 CHA: 20

I need advice on how to keep him from dying on not to use on playing a character with S6 Hit dice or low AC
.
I mean I'm thinking of buying a wand of mage armor but I'd like 18 or higher ac at least

Could buy a +3 Mithral buckler. Maybe that would work

Any one got advice on how I should play him in combat ?


The first rule of staying alive as a sorcerer is to not be in the direct line of fire when possible. Fly out of reach, use allies or terrain as cover/concealment (especially for an enchantment specialist who doesn't care if he gets penalties for attacking the enemy), try to avoid being targetable when you can and when you just have to be in front of a melee enemy cast mirror image or similar (horrific doubles, shocking image, empowered mirror image... invisibility of some kind is also an option.)

If you throw everything at AC it can work. Putting the bare minimum in can also work if you rely on other defences. Putting some effort into AC but not a huge amount is wasted on a sorc; AC 21 won't help much at level 8, I've been there. Everything means filling out the big six with a belt of dex, amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection besides your mage armor and shield, then looking for more: haste, maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone, maybe debuff enemies, get any buffs you can from allies. BTW: a sorcerer 8 will probably not run out of 1st level spell slots, you don't need a wand of mage armor.


Have a good Initiative. Going first = you get to crowd control.

As a Sorcerer, you don't have access to a lot of different spells like Wiz does, so take some time to decide what you're going to choose at each new level and write it out. It's okay if you change it later, but have a plan that you're working towards.

Grease, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Fly, Displacement, Haste, and Dimension Door are some of the best survival spells in the game, so definitely make sure these are in your spell list


avr wrote:

The first rule of staying alive as a sorcerer is to not be in the direct line of fire when possible. Fly out of reach, use allies or terrain as cover/concealment (especially for an enchantment specialist who doesn't care if he gets penalties for attacking the enemy), try to avoid being targetable when you can and when you just have to be in front of a melee enemy cast mirror image or similar (horrific doubles, shocking image, empowered mirror image... invisibility of some kind is also an option.)

If you throw everything at AC it can work. Putting the bare minimum in can also work if you rely on other defences. Putting some effort into AC but not a huge amount is wasted on a sorc; AC 21 won't help much at level 8, I've been there. Everything means filling out the big six with a belt of dex, amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection besides your mage armor and shield, then looking for more: haste, maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone, maybe debuff enemies, get any buffs you can from allies. BTW: a sorcerer 8 will probably not run out of 1st level spell slots, you don't need a wand of mage armor.

How do these look for feats?

Feat
1ST Agile (Racial Feat)
1ST Spell Focus: enchantment
3RD Dodge
5TH Spell Penetration
(Bonus) Improved Initiative
7TH Greater Spell Focus Enchant...


Also I have

5 1ST level spells known
3 2nd level spells known
2 3rd level spells known
1 4th level spell known

How many should I dedicate to enchantment spells
And what are some good ones I should grab?


I get that you want to be survivable, but keep in mind that as a squishy caster, good tactics will matter as much or more than your static defensive bonuses. avr gave you good advice there.

Not sure if it's optimal, but seeing as you're playing Kitsune AND focusing on enchantment I'd look at the Kitsune bloodline, and/or investing your feats into the Kitsune specific racial feats. I'm thinking of the magical tail feat specifically. That will get you more enchantment spells as SLA's, and free you up to take some of the handy defensive spells in your limited spells known.

This is one of my bucket list characters by the way, so enjoy. Sounds like great fun.


ThecrimeForceDragon wrote:

How do these look for feats?

Feat
1ST Agile (Racial Feat)
1ST Spell Focus: enchantment
3RD Dodge
5TH Spell Penetration
(Bonus) Improved Initiative
7TH Greater Spell Focus Enchant...

Agile isn't a feat. Personally I'd put a metamagic feat in that list to give more use to your lower level spells known, possibly in place of GSF. Your spell save DC is going to be high enough with Cha maxed and presumably the kitsune racial favored class bonus, and possibly fey bloodline.

1 AC for a feat is a poor bargain but dodge is also a prereq for osyluth guile; get that next level to justify having taken dodge.

ThecrimeForceDragon wrote:

Also I have

5 1ST level spells known
3 2nd level spells known
2 3rd level spells known
1 4th level spell known

How many should I dedicate to enchantment spells
And what are some good ones I should grab?

Don't forget you have bloodline spells. If you're taking the fey bloodline for the save DC boost then that means entangle, hideous laughter and deep slumber; if you're taking undead to expand the possible targets of your enchantment spells then you get chill touch, false life and vampiric touch; or serpentine similarly gets you hypnotism, delay poison and summon monster 3 (crocodile).

Say you're going with the fey bloodline. That gives you a couple of enchantment spells already - you might grab confusion so you have a multi-target attack and charm person for persuading people (BTW using charm person for sex is a terrible look, don't do it.) Then you might get fly, haste, mirror image and mage armor for defense, scorching ray for use on enemies you can't enchant or entangle, and whatever utility spells you like for the rest.

Or if you want to be much creepier and play into the look of the undead bloodline then you might pick up babble and glitterdust as multi-target attacks, sensory overload for a single-target save-or-suck, then get horrific doubles for a solid defence/debuff, haste, levitate and mage armor for pure defence, and magic missile for those irritating creatures you want to do more than a debuff to.

Basically make sure you have at least one spell which affects multiple targets or an area, one which disables a single target, one which affects creatures immune to enchantments, and all the defences you need.


@ avr

What meta-magic feat would you recommend?

Also any particular traits or should I just go with reactionary and saving throw boost?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Persistent spell is good for a save-based spellcaster, especially a sorc or other with limited spells known. The +1 metamagics are often better as metamagic rods - yeah, probably persistent spell.

As far as traits go it's hard to beat +2 initiative, but you have improved initiative, 16 Dex and possibly the heightened awareness spell. You might not need it. Irrepressible for +Cha to some will saves is also high on the optimisation list. IMO at least one of your traits should be something you specifically want in your backstory or description tho', and there are plenty which fill that role while still possibly being useful to your probably very social sorcerer - dealmaker, affable, ambitious, resilient martyr, voices in your head etc.


How do these look for feats

Feat
1ST Spell Focus: enchantment
3RD Dodge
5TH Spell Penetration
(Bonus) Improved Initiative
7TH Persistent metamagic
.....
9Th level osyluth guile

Or

1ST Spell Focus: enchantment
3RD Magic Tail
5TH Spell Penetration
(Bonus) Improved Initiative
7TH Magic Tail
....
9th Magic Tail


The 3 magic tails get you: disguise self, charm person, misdirection. As an 8th level sorcerer this seems unnecessary, you can get those pretty easily via spells known, or even via pages of spell knowledge. That feat's more for rogues or fighters IMO.

The first set looks good to me.


avr is almost certainly a better optimiser than I am. I just really like the unique racial feats.

That being said, anything that gives extra spells or SLAs to a sorcerer helps make them more versatile. Frees up some choices so that you can choose other enchantments, or pick up useful utilities or defenses from other schools.


Sysryke wrote:
avr is almost certainly a better optimiser than I am. I just really like the unique racial feats.

Kitsune can get a racial feat which might be relevant to this character - realistic likeness. This can extend the character's abilities beyond what their spells can do.

Sysryke wrote:
That being said, anything that gives extra spells or SLAs to a sorcerer helps make them more versatile. Frees up some choices so that you can choose other enchantments, or pick up useful utilities or defenses from other schools.

Starting at 8th level sorcerer a couple of 1st level spells are irrelevant and a single 2nd level spell is fairly minor. A 1st level page of spell knowledge costs 1 000 gp (WBL@8th: 33 000 gp) and a 2nd 4 000 gp. Any time you're getting less than the equivalent of 5 000 gp for a feat stop and reconsider your plans.

Magical tails, with the trait which lets you use class bonus feats for them & the 1/6 of a magical tail FCB could be really fun on a kitsune fighter. You could get them all by 6th level. A sorcerer is slower to get tail feats and has less use for them.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Osyluth Guile only works while fighting defensively, meaning that you're making attack rolls at a penalty. And as an enchanter, you're probably never doing that, because you're casting spells that don't require attack rolls.

And yeah, the spells you get from the Kitsune tail feats aren't good picks for a sorcerer.


Spell Penetration is also probably not needed yet. Spell Resistance usually does not come into play until later in the game. Around 9th level is when I would start looking at it.

Another thing you can do to boost your AC is to get Silken Ceremonial Armor. Since there is no ACP or Arcane Spell Failure you can wear it with no penalty even without proficiency with light armor. While only gives a +1 AC it can be enchanted so the bonus can actually be higher. The Wand of Mage Armor gives a higher bonus but does not last so you end up having to cast it every hour which means it does not last that long.


@AVR is my math right for my spell DC

Level 4 Spell Confusion
DC = 25?


Your DC should be: 10 + ChaMod + SpLvl + KitsuneRacial + SpellFocus = DC

So at level 8, you should have a +2 Cha Headband (or +4 headband if you can afford it) and +2 Cha from lvl4/8 Abil Score progression, so your Cha would be 24 or 26, so your DC should be something like:

10 + 7-8ChaMod + 4ConfusionSpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus = 23-24DC

If you decide to get Greater Spell Focus, it will increase it by another 1DC.


Enchantment has some pretty cool spells, especially Touch of Idiocy. And since you have a decent Dex Mod for ranged touch attacks, you can debuff the daylights out of a BBEG with an Empowered Reach Touch of Idiocy and never even have to get near him. 1d6(+50%) Int/Wis/Cha damage can debuff Will Saves and even force an enemy caster to lose their high level spells and reduce their DC's, so use this liberally and probably plan on starting most combats with this in round 1. Depending on the combat in question, other good round 1 spells are Hypnotism, Confusion, Dominate Person, Mind Fog, Hideous Laughter, Deep Slumber, and Hold Person.

Also, as an Enchantment-focused Sorc, you are entirely dependent your enemies failing their saves, so Greater Spell Focus at level 3 will do some serious work for the entire game. I highly recommend it.

And as a Save-or-Die caster, Persistent Spell is the bee's knees, and the first level you can make this really work is about lvl 8-9ish because it's +3 spell slot and as a sorc, you don't have lvl 4 spell slots until lvl 8.

Also, as far as your feats, I would go:

Lvl1: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl3: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl5: Reach Spell
lvl7: Empower Spell (lvl7 bonus feat: Improved Initiative)
Lvl9: Persistent Spell
lvl11: Spell Penetration

I would also recommend considering a Crossblooded Sorcerer with the Arcane Bloodline so you can get a +4 initiative familiar with your lvl1 bloodline power. As far as traits, I would take +2 Initiative Reactionary Trait, and also take the Magical Lineage Trait and put it on Touch of Idiocy so you can put at least 1 level of Reach on all your ToI's for free. You don't want to be wading into melee range to debuff, so do it from a safe distance.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Your DC should be: 10 + ChaMod + SpLvl + KitsuneRacial + SpellFocus = DC

So at level 8, you should have a +2 Cha Headband (or +4 headband if you can afford it) and +2 Cha from lvl4/8 Abil Score progression, so your Cha would be 24 or 26, so your DC should be something like:

10 + 7-8ChaMod + 4ConfusionSpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus = 23-24DC

If you decide to get Greater Spell Focus, it will increase it by another 1DC.

I forgot about the Fey Bloodline Arcana, you get +2 to Compulsion spells. So for Confusion, add +2 to this ----^

Also, if you do end up going Crossblooded into Arcane, the Arcane Bloodline Arcana is +1 DC to any spell you've increased the spell slot by 1 or more (except not for Heighten Spell). So your Persistent spells will be quite a doozy to resist, especially if they're Compulsions O.o

At level 8, your WBL should be ~33,000gp, and a +4 Headband of Alluring Charisma is 16,000gp. You should definitely get one of these immediately, or as soon as humanly possible.

Also, consider getting a Belt of Dexterity +2 for 4,000gp. If you have Improved Initiative, +4 Init from your familiar, and +2 from Reactionary Trait, you should be rocking a 4dex + 4ImpInit + 4Familiar +2Reactionary = +14 Initiative. As an Enchanter, going first = you get to take out the scariest target(s) with CC/Debuffs before anything else happens. Having a high initiative also sets you up nicely for taking Readied Actions for Counterspelling with Dispel Magic.


@ Ryze Kuja

Ok with in reason I'll have wealth of a character starting at what ever level I start at

With in reason a +2 Cha boosting item will be a likely grab

Any particular other item for this enchanter that'll be useful?


I'd assumed you were taking the kitsune sorcerer racial alt FCB of "Add +1/4 to the DC of enchantment spells"; at L8 that's another +2 save DC to confusion.

I couldn't recommend crossblooded. You wouldn't have a 4th level spell known so confusion wouldn't be an option, and you'd also have one less 3rd, 2nd and 1st spell known. This'd continue to new spells known when you get them. It'd be immensely frustrating.

On items; if you're going the AC way a fair chunk of your budget is going there. 4K for a belt of dex +2, 10K for that buckler, 2K for an amulet of natural armor +1, another 2K for a ring of protection +1. You'd be getting a headband of cha +2 rather than +4 for now. Don't forget the cloak of resistance either. You may not have money for anything else much, but a ring of spell knowledge I is something I've found handy, a few scrolls of low level useful spells can be very useful; I don't think you'll be able to afford a reach (lesser) metamagic rod at 3K just now but put it on your wish list.


avr wrote:


On items; if you're going the AC way a fair chunk of your budget is going there. 4K for a belt of dex +2, 10K for that buckler, 2K for an amulet of natural armor +1, another 2K for a ring of protection +1. You'd be getting a headband of cha +2 rather than +4 for now. Don't forget the cloak of resistance either. You may not have money for anything else much, but a ring of spell knowledge I is something I've found handy, a few scrolls of low level useful spells can be very useful; I don't think you'll be able to afford a reach (lesser) metamagic rod at 3K just now but put it on your wish list.

Not arguing, just seeking understanding. This is why I had thought the magical tails would be a good idea. With the exception of a wizard or Arcanist in a theoretically generous spell book treasure campaign, I tend to assume more spells or SLAs are helpful for any caster type build. I understand that they also add diversity to non casters, just thought it was helpful/useful either way. If the character is investing all of its wealth resources towards defense, do the tails become more worthwhile?

Is it just sorcerers that the tails aren't good for, or all casters? If so, why?


Sysryke wrote:

Not arguing, just seeking understanding. This is why I had thought the magical tails would be a good idea. With the exception of a wizard or Arcanist in a theoretically generous spell book treasure campaign, I tend to assume more spells or SLAs are helpful for any caster type build. I understand that they also add diversity to non casters, just thought it was helpful/useful either way. If the character is investing all of its wealth resources towards defense, do the tails become more worthwhile?

Is it just sorcerers that the tails aren't good for, or all casters? If so, why?

For a fighter or rogue the feats are giving you the ability to cast spells at all. For a sorcerer they're expanding your repertoire but by less than the expanded arcana feat, which isn't great either. Two extra first level spells known and one extra second level spell known (or equivalent thereof), the last of which is terribly situational, is a waste of three feats for an 8th level sorcerer.

Above I suggested a ring of spell knowledge I which costs 1500 gp and adds a similar amount of utility to the sorcerer as the three magical tail feats. It's just one 1st level spell at a time but being able to change that spell makes it better than being stuck with charm person when you're talking to fey, or disguise self when you're fighting wild animals, etc.

Magical Tail is marginally better for a sorcerer than most other full casters because it runs off Cha. It'd be better for a 6-level or 4-level spellcaster than a sorcerer because it's closer to their best spells in level, and because they have less spell slots than a sorcerer and a couple extra 1st level spells per day is noticeable for a (e.g.) bloodrager.

BTW Kurald is of course right about Osyluth guile, please ignore my recommendation for it for this character.


Ok if I don't want to completely invest in AC but want it to be about where should be for a character of my type at level 8

What would be consider an ok amount of Ac at my level.

Any meta-magic rods I can afford and if so any Worth it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Don't invest in your AC unless you're planning on putting it in the clouds. Mediocre AC is the same as Bad AC. You can rely on Mirror Image, Displacement, and Fly, and smart positioning/tactics to stay alive.


Purchase a +1 Silken Ceremonial Armor and a +1 Mithral Bukler for 3,185 gp. That gives you a +2 armor bonus and a +2 shield bonus for a total of +4 AC. For AC that is the absolute best return on your investment you can get. Any other way to get a bonus to AC starts at 2,000 gp per point of AC. Now get all the normal +1 boosters. You should be able to afford a +2 belt and a +4 Headband and still have almost 6,000 gp left assuming standard wealth by level.

That would give you a 20 AC which should be adequate for a sorcerer. You are still not going to get screwed if you try to be a front line combatant, but if you avoid that you are not going to be a sitting duck.

If you are going for the Fey Bloodline picking up dodge as your first bloodline feat is not a bad Idea. Most of the other bloodline feats are not much use for a sorcerer anyways. Quicken Spell is useless at this level. Improve Initiative is about the only other one to consider. Dodge boosts your touch AC so that helps deal with touch spells and rays, something you will need to worry about.


Ok so from on reading is either go all in on Ac or rely on positioning / cover and then like

I think I'll go with the former. Now that we actually use battle maps this'll be easier to accomplish.

Feats to consider

Improved Initiative
Persistent spell

What I currently have listed
Feat
1ST Spell Focus: enchantment
3RD Dodge
5TH Spell Penetration
(Bonus) Improved Initiative
7TH Persistent metamagic

Dodge a im a little iffy on
Well I've think some said I shouldn't have to take spell Penetration till my 9th level

Ryze Kuja @

Mention these feat. I'm not to sure what the empower spell is for...

Lvl1: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl3: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl5: Reach Spell
lvl7: Empower Spell (lvl7 bonus feat: Improved Initiative)
Lvl9: Persistent Spell
lvl11: Spell Penetration

... Would not

Lvl1: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl3: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
lvl5: Reach Spell
lvl7: Persistent Spell (lvl7 bonus feat: Improved Initiative)
Lvl9: Spell Penetration.

As for spell I'm trying to figure out the best ones that meet what AVR said

"Basically make sure you have at least one spell which affects multiple targets or an area, one which disables a single target, one which affects creatures immune to enchantments, and all the defences you need."

I obviously want my highest level spell to be a compulsion enchantment
I know I want Mirror image.
Any other suggestions for spells known at my level ?


Empower is for your damage spells. And it's also for Touch of Idiocy. 1d6(+50% for Empower) penalty to Int/Wis/Cha will wreck enemy casters because lets say you have an enemy caster with 22 Int, and you roll a 6 on the d6, +50% makes that -9 Int/Wis/Cha, so now his Int is 13, now they're limited to 3rd lvl spells and lower-- at least until the penalty expires or is removed. It also debuffs their will saves, making your Enchantment spells even more potent, and lastly, it reduces the DC's for their spells as well, making their offensive prowess go from Tiger to Kitten.

Also, there will be times where you gotta put out the hurty hurt with a fireball or scorching ray, and spending 1 feat on Empower to make your dmg spells have more umph is worth it.

If you choose Enervation as one of your spells, you can Empower that as well, 1d4 +50% negative levels is atrocious.

Also, you should put Persistent Spell at level 9 or 11 feat, and NOT at level 7. It's a +3 Spell Slot MM, so the first time you could put that on a lvl 1 spell is with a 4th lvl spell slot, and you won't have 4th lvl spell slots until level 8. And, you'll probably want to put a 4th level spell in there, not a 1st level spell with Persistent. So 9th level is the first chance you could use Persistent if you have something specific in mind for a 1st lvl spell, but you'll have more 4th level spell slots when you're 11, and you'll have the option to make a 2nd level spell as Persistent at lvl 11 as well.

So, I would put Persistent at level 9 but only if you have some specific 1st lvl spell that you have in mind to make Persistent. But lvl 11 you should have plenty of spell slots to make good use of Persistent, so I would definitely get it by lvl 11.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Empower is for your damage spells. And it's also for Touch of Idiocy. 1d6(+50% for Empower) penalty to Int/Wis/Cha will wreck enemy casters because lets say you have an enemy caster with 22 Int, and you roll a 6 on the d6, +50% makes that -9 Int/Wis/Cha, so now his Int is 13, now they're limited to 3rd lvl spells and lower

The downside with Touch of Idiocy is that if you don't roll a 6 on the d6 (you know, like you usually won't) then the spell doesn't do a whole lot.

On average, Empowered TOI gives a single enemy -3 to will saves and -3 to his save DC, which is pretty bad for a fourth-level spell slot.

Yes, locking an enemy out of his higher-level slots is great, but that's really not that likely.


Persistent is a +2 metamagic feat. Not +3. Persistent 2nd level save-or-suck spells can be seriously effective.

Empowered spell is also +2 and won't be any use on enervation until you reach 12th level; enervation is not great without it. That said, empowered mirror image is occasionally useful; empowered scorching ray/magic missile on a fey sorcerer still isn't great but it makes your emergency damage option slightly better. I'd put off empowered spell until later than 8th.

Enchantment spells to note: If you're going with fey then you already have slumber and hideous laughter - both of these are spells you'll use. confusion is the best 4th level attack spell. Charm monster is useful but not as good in a fight. Babble is a good 3rd level BFC/attack spell, suggestion is the best 3rd level spell outside fights. Sensory overload is a 2nd level save-or-suck which loves persistent spell but which comes close to duplicating the effect of hideous laughter, hoodwink is close to mass invisibility for escape or bypassing enemies. Charm person is the 1st level out of combat spell (well, hypnotism can work too), about the only 1st level combat enchantment spell you'd consider is deja vu because it has no save at all.


Depending upon the level you will play to consider:

a. Arcane Bloodline (the bloodline arcanae and School Power abilities can potentially add +3 to save DC's.
or b. Dreamspun Bloodline (potentially adds +4 to the save dc for sleep spells).

But assuming Fey, for feats I'd go:

1. Spell Focus,
3. Greater Spell Focus,
5. Piercing Spell,
7. Persistant Spell & Improved Initiative (Bloodline),
9. Extend Spell,
11. Combat Casting or Silent Spell or Still Spell,
13. Combat Casting or Silent Spell or Still Spell & Quicken Spell (Bloodline)
15. Spell Perfection.


Yeah, Persistent is +2, not sure why I misremembered it as +3. So getting Persistent at level 7 or 9 would be a good idea.

As far as Empowering Touch of Idiocy, your avg roll is going to be a 3 or a 4, so that becomes a -4 or -6 penalty to Int/Wis/Cha on average with Empower. Since we're cranking up the Enchantment DC to nigh-godlike, having that enemy make his Will Saves with a -2 to -3 Penalty is pretty darn good. It's essentially adding +2 to +3 to already incredible DC's, while simultaneously taking his offensive casting down by the same amount.

And as an added bonus, if any of those ability scores are dump stats, like Wizards who dump Cha to 7, you have a decent chance of turning him into a drooly cross-eyed mess with 1 Cha left, and hopefully your GM roleplays "Barely conscious, appears blank and expressionless" and "Capable of only minimal independent decision-making" appropriately. If nothing else, you get to nickname that evil Wizard "Droolbucket" and press on with the campaign.

With 8 levels of Kitsune Sorc 1/4 FCB, SF/GSF, +4 Headband of Charisma, we're looking at Enchantment DCs between 24 to 29 DC.

Level4 Compulsion Spell:
10 + 8ChaMod + 4ConfusionSpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus + 1GreaterSpF +2 8/8FCB + 2FeyBloodlineArcana(Compulsion) = 29DC

Level1 Enchantment Spell(non-compulsion)
10 + 8ChaMod + 1SpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus + 1GreaterSpF +2 8/8FCB = 24DC

Level 8 Cleric w/ 24 Wis = +13 Will Save
Level 8 Monk w/ 22 Wis = +12 Will Save
Avg lvl 8CR Monster with Good Save: +11 Will Save
Avg lvl 8CR Monster with Poor Save: +7 Will Save
Level 8 Slayer w/ 12 Wis = +3 Will Save

At level 8, his Level4 Compulsions vs an equal CR with a strong Will save are 18-20, and Empowered ToI pretty much makes it impossible unless they roll a 20. 20's are auto success, so there's nothing we can do about that. Only high-Will characters like Clerics or Monks would even be able to save with a 16-19 roll, and CR8 with Good Will Saves will save on 18-19. Empowered ToI turns this into 18-20 only for Clerics, and 20's only for everything else.

But his level 1-3 non-compulsion spells can still be saved, albeit this is still tough to do. So, Empowered ToI can all but assure his lvl 1-3 enchantments land 95% of the time vs. low/med-Will targets, and then turn a ~35-50% Save Chance into a ~20-40% Save Chance vs high-Will targets.

If you're not satisfied with Empowered ToI, then consider getting Maximize Spell Lesser Metamagic Rod for 14,000gp, and now you can Maximize lvl 1-3 spells 3x per day. Maximized Touch of Idiocy is just a flat -6 Int/Wis/Cha. Empowered Maximized ToI would be flat -9 Int/Wis/Cha, and that's pretty brutal. This is where having Magical Lineage in Touch of Idiocy is nice, because you can have Empowered ToI's as 3rd level spells and still have the Lesser MM Rod affect it normally.


Oh and one thing I forgot, if your DM allows Leadership geta COURT BARD follower for their satire performance (which negatively affects will saves vs fear and enchantment).


Ryze Kuja wrote:
...

Wait?

I can use Empower to increase the save DC of my spells?
This I did not know....


JuliusCromwell wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
...

Wait?

I can use Empower to increase the save DC of my spells?
This I did not know....

You can't. Ryze's talking about empowering a spell which gives penalties to mental stats including Wis - the penalty gets increased by empower which lowers their saves in future.

The exact combo suggested requires that the caster spend a round of setup, and touch of idiocy is a melee touch spell which means that setup needs to be done from far too close (unless further resources are spent), and empowered ToI is one of the casters highest level spell slots beign used to set up another spell... I wouldn't do it, but it is possible.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Ryze Kuja wrote:
As far as Empowering Touch of Idiocy, your avg roll is going to be a 3 or a 4, so that becomes a -4 or -6 penalty to Int/Wis/Cha on average with Empower. Since we're cranking up the Enchantment DC to nigh-godlike,

Since your save DCs are already incredible, you should use your first turn to hit that caster with a save-or-lose spell; spending your turn (and a high-level slot) to give him -3 to will saves is redundant.


Cries in unfinished guide.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
As far as Empowering Touch of Idiocy, your avg roll is going to be a 3 or a 4, so that becomes a -4 or -6 penalty to Int/Wis/Cha on average with Empower. Since we're cranking up the Enchantment DC to nigh-godlike,
Since your save DCs are already incredible, you should use your first turn to hit that caster with a save-or-lose spell; spending your turn (and a high-level slot) to give him -3 to will saves is redundant.

It is worth seeing what the other characters in your party can do to assist you and likewise, e.g. a good intimidate martial.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Kitsune Sorcerer (Enchantment Specialist) LV8 All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice