What is up with all these people talking about amulet of mighty fists? That item is so garbage, real monks use +5 Brass Knuckles they want unarmed damage, or +5 Temple Sword if they want more power attack damage. Amulet is way over priced, that Item is sooo only core book only. For 50,303 gold, all your unarmed attacks get +5 to hit and damage, and it gets around almost all damage reduction.
Funny thing is that when I play a wizard (my fav class actually, second is monk). That I also understand that it is a teamwork game, and I'll cast things like haste and black tentacles or stinking cloud etc. After I cast these spells, I may do the odd thing here or there or cast another debuff/control/buff spell, but I understand that is a teamwork game and thus I still relie on those "useless" melee class guys to finish and mob up the enemies.
I just make sure that I don't get this sense of entitlement or that I am special because I am playing a caster and someone else isn't. There are games when I make the monk incredible disgusting at killings things by casting haste and singining inspire courage with my bard. I don't go around telling people that they are playing the game wrong because they aren't playing what I want them to play, I just work to thier strenghts and they work with mine while we cover each other's weaknesses. I like having a monk in a party because they can hunt down casters and any buffs are really good on them because they throw so many attacks. And I don't have to worry about him getting mind controlled and turning on us. He is reliable at not getting hurt and there are very little weaknesses to the class.
You guys know that a monk is actually pretty hard to grapple as they add thier monk ac, strenght, dex and 3/4 bab +10 + and dodge effects to thier cmd. Monk's are one of the hardest classes to grapple.
How is that magus' reflex save and evasion working btw? Oh yeah he doesn't have it. At GatfromKi. If I grappled you once as a monk and you demension door, what prevents me from doing it again, unless you are running away (cause the magus is better then the monk... :p) And that random stick that you grab that becomes a +3 weapon, you do realize that optimized monks run around with brass knuckles which also will get around damage reduction. Sure it costs money, but they are able to get around dr with weapons at the same rate everyone else a fighter or barbarian is. Btw the monks I play are ussually tanks, strikers and support characters all rolled into one because of thier versatility, mobility strenght and defensive abilities. And they good perception, stealth (cause everyone has see invisibility as the game drags on) and sense motive (a lil bit of role playing never hurt anyone). When I play a monk, I plan to disarm or trip any fighters, grapple/stunning fist enemy caster. Sure I can't do everything myself, and sometimes i'll need help from the wizard, but thats what he is there for to support me while I protect him. What does the magus do when my wizard buddy casts fly on me so I can hunt you down, or I use my boots of fly to hunt you down? You move 60, I move 60+my enhancement bonus. Because believe it or not, pathfinder is a teamwork game and you have to depend on your teammates to win.
TarkXT wrote:
Problem with that is that you need 15 dex for the basic two weapon fighting. Remember, they get improved at level 8 and greater at level 15. And now you have to qualify for the dex requirements, and if you read power attack, your off hand attack doesn't get +2/-1 normal rate, it gets +1/-1 instead and there is no feat to fix that, as double slice deals with the damage from strenght. And they don't flurry and would still use thier 3/4 bab. The math for flurry is as such
Adding haste and medusa's wrath and ki pool you are able to throw out like 8 attacks if you hit stunning fist by level 10 which is mid level. 6 of those are at your highest to hit.
This is what it comes down to with the monk. It is a decent class that hits hard, has good saves all around, and moves fast. It is also capable of some nifty tricks that allow it to move around. It has defense against BTW- It pretty much has a full BAB, with two weapon fighting for free, doesn't suffer the +1 damage/-1 to hit in his off hand for power attack, gets double slice for free, gets improved and greater two weapon fighting for free. If you want to grapple or trip or disarm, you do not need 13 intelligence to do this, which is huge. It also has a very good touch ac and flat footed AC. Ki pool (really good), Evasion (great), Still mind (great), + a bunch of other stuff which is ok and will come up once in a while. What does your fighter/barbarian have for defense? Oh yeah close to nothing but good AC, which I can match or surpass with ki pool a couple of times per day. How was that touch ac, how is that will save? How is your reflex save, do you have evasion? How is your perception check, your sense motive or stealth? Swim and climb any good in your armor? I don't know what games you guys play, but in the game pathfinder, I've used the monk as a Boss and almost TPK'd a party with said monk. I've used Vampire monks where as I flurry, they have to save vs stun fist, get tripped and still make a save vs level loss, or worse have their weapons stolen. While the wizard is having a problem casting offensive spells on said monk, the two mellee guys are having problems hitting him, and the ranger is lying on the floor cause he got grappled and his blood sucked nearly dry. If you know how to build a monk, they are devastating and fall behind fighters and barbarians by very little in to hit and that is because the barbarian has rage, the fighter has weapon training. You have stunning fist which is still useful. There are ways to get around the initial crappy ac of the monk with spells like mage armor, and scrolls that you give to your arcane buddies.
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 5
Some questions about this spell.
2) during a full round attack, what happens to the consecutive attacks. Ex. tiger full round attacks (2 attacks) fighter, bard casts foe to freind on the tiger's first attack, tiger fails will save, what happens to the tiger's 2nd attack.
Necromancer wrote:
Ok, thanks, I figured a monk vampire with good grapple for biting, and solid unarmed strikes that have a chance of energy drain would be an interesting challenge for the party.
I am trying to make a vampire monk (I am the GM) for my next session but I was trying to figure something out. Vampires do not have a constitution score, so how does the sorceror vampire in the bestiary have such a high fortitude save? Do vampires get thier fortitude save modifier from charisma instead as that stat is keyed into thier health/level?
reefwood wrote:
You are the dm, jast make something up like a special vampire poison. Story before mechanics is what I always say.
reefwood wrote:
You are the dm, jast make something up like a special vampire poison. Story before mechanics is what I always say.
Asgetrion wrote:
Technically it's 5 arrows when that arcane caster casts haste on you. :) By 6th level a party should have access to haste, unless ur reling on a bard, then it's 7th.
There is one thing I noticed while reading these 400+ posts. There is an assumption that every rogue has to be twf to be effective. In the Game that I DM, I had rogue (based on the character Link from Hyrule) that pretty much ran at people with a two-handed great sword. The player had good damage, and could keep up with the rest of the party. She treated sneak attack dice as a bonus when she could, but did not rely purely on the sneak attack damage. Now she did use a lot of APG stuff, so I'm not sure if that negates my argument. If I remember correctly, she had the scout variant and the sniper variant.
ProfessorCirno wrote:
This argument is not directed at you, it's just that you cover most of the points being thrown at monks. So no disrepect. When you get to higher level play, you have to deal with enchantment spells which the fighter is generally not well equipped to deal with. What happens when I (the DM) try the following? I dominate person you with optomized vampire sorcerors every round until fail your will save, (and you will unless you have mystical dice). After your dominated, have fun cleaving/vital striking/Full round attacking your freinds the wizard and the cleric while my sorceror kills the rest of your party. A failed will save can TPK the party, especially on a fighter. OK, your a fighter vs my monk? What happens when I disarm you, take your weapon and continue to kick the crap out of with flurry of blows because I invested in a strong strenght modifer, my knuckles ensure that I am a little underneath you for damage/to hit, while my ac is near the 40's at level 12 because of my monk's robe and my ki point. And forget about touching my cmd, because unlike you, I add 3 stats to that+3/4 BAB to add to that which is greater then your 2 stats and full BAB. I don't know how you guys play, but the monks that I play with are the most durable and ussually the most reliable members of the party. If I feel like an ass, and I want to TPK a party, I will use a monk with PC gold (cr=to level) that is roughly 2-3 levels higher then the party's APL (a tough challenge), and go to town on them. Between evasion + reflex save, strong will saves, decent fortitude save, high ac, and a high touch ac, the highest cmd in the game, it is nearly impossible to take down a well built monk. SO what if they don't fly, drink a potion of fly, you have problems with dr? USE POWER ATTACK. If your to hit sucks, then have good strenght, spend your money wisely on things like brass knuckles and strenght belts. At higher levels, they get SR as an added layer of defense. This is a team game, so purchase a wand of mage armor, or get a pearl of power for your wizard/sorceror/witch/alcamist freind to cast mage armor on you. At later levels, you can get a ring of spell storing, and get shield cast on it, so that in a pinch your ac is that much higher. Monk's are not easy to play, you have to be smart, and you have to be frugal. Honestly, this hate for monks from people who don't know how to play monks is really annoying. BTW, due to the monk's high defensive nature, they are able to set off traps and not have to worry about it that much. THey have good reflex, good fort, godly will (only druids and some clerics have higher will saves). So all that talk about monk's being mobile and sneaky, but useless due to lack of disable device is kind of bunch because they can just set off the trap and most of the time not worry about the trap due to thier defenses. With regards to skills, ok you can spend money on swimming stuff, and you can spend money stuff that will help you climb (or just fly). What about sense motive when people are lying to you? What about perception, the MOST SINGLE IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME! monks on average should be 3-4 to hit under a fighter/barbarian, but you have to account for the sheer number of attacks that are bieng used+TWF aka flurry of blows.
Brass knuckles is a monk weapon that scales with the monk's unarmed damage and costs the same as any other weapon to enhance. So instead for paying 5000 for +1, 20000 for +2 and so on, you are paying 2000 for +1, 8000 for +2 and 18000 for +3 just like any other class, and this works for all of your flurry attacks. It becomes way for feasable for a monk to catch up to a fighter with damage when he can match the fighter for wealth in the offense department. Is he going to be a good as a fighter, no. Will he suck at dpr if he is flurring and has decent strenght+brass knuckles ( like a fighter with high strenght and a weapon with enchantment) so it's almost comparable, no... he'll be ok at dpr now.
Hey I was just thinking if it is better to run around two handing a temple sword (1d8, 19-20 crit) then it is to just use fists? For instance by two handing a temple sword you would get more damage from stenght and power attack and less variable damage due to dice. I figured by level 20 (15 with monk's robes) you might aswell go for the 2 d10's worth of damage but what about before hand? But at what level is it not worth using a weapon anymore? I am also a fan of jedi's and I figured a Ghost Hungry Monk running around with a temple sword tripping and kicking people is the best the closest you'll get. (Maybe Eldritch knight with telekinesis and lightning bolt, but thats a different thread).
If you want, you can run the game in a way that only certain things are available in a shop. Another tactic I used is that the shop keeper wasn't interested in the item that the pc's wanted to sell cause he didn't think anyone else would come along and buy it, it was an obscure role playing item not neccessarily a powergame item.
I noticed discussion about grapping a wizard at level 13, and how they had 30 intelligence at that level. How does a wizard get 30 intelligence at level 13? I am currently playing a level 13 wizard, and have 29 intelligence and am wondering if I missed something. Starting 20 intelligence, + 3 permananent stas for levels (4,8,12)
Cos1983 wrote:
I'm sorry Cos :( In retrospect, I should have just kept the charisma and intel at 10. I'm still trying not to be a dirty power gamer, but it's soo hard.The strenght was the main stat for that character, and the dex/wisdom would have dropped a lil bit. (One of em would have been a 16) and Hey I still took profession sailor, so I wasn't that super munchkin. I on the otherhand as a GM keep on moving down the point buy... the players I play with now are all power gamers, and 15-20 point buy is where the game should be for expereinced players.
A character that I built for fun was a arcane trickster, at higher levels I would cast greater invisibility on myself and do full round actions with sneak attack dice that would apply. It wasn't optimized or anything, but the character was versatile and fun to play with, as it was super stealthy and would be able to do many things that an average wizard or rogue would do.
there are tons of ways within the game to foil casters, the simplest way to jump the party before the casters have thier spells prepared, or you push the pace of the day to something like 5-6 fairly difficult encounters and make the casters run out of spells, if they cast something that lasts minutes/rounds per use, then wait till it runs out and then attack the casters again.
The best damage dealer in the game is either the ranged ranger, ranged fighter or ranged inquisitor. Ranged Combat is the way to deal the most in pathfinder, and you do far more damage then a melee combat.
Turin the Mad wrote:
If the players I played with started doing anything remotely like that, I show them the door and tell em go to play WOW. The other thing I have done, when people are creating characters that have crafting feats that are higher level (level 5 onwards), I tell them they only get a 25% bonus on items so that they aren't that much stronger then the people who don't have crafting, as I don't think that a feat should give you an extra 2-4 extra major items.
The first book of kingmaker should have some magic items, a couple of +1 weapons, there is even a fae bane weapon in the first book. The boss also gives you a significant amount of magic items. I do have to say, that game does encourage high perception in order to find your magic items and what not.
Anguish wrote:
This is the best suggestion, let the player bury themselves, thats what I would do. Honestly, I wouldn't put up with this at all. I would let the player know that would not be welcome anymore. The boyfreind can leave too, and when he handles his relationship problem a bit better, he can return.
Kamelguru wrote:
I did some RPing where the king with the assistance of the council, had to determine had to officiate some claims/dispute kind of like King Solomon. If you ever played Dragon Age: Awakening you could take some ideas from that. The other thing is that the spymaster sometimes goes out to spy on the citizens or goes investigates certain events in Book 2 and does some intel on the loud guy and on the girls to figure out stuff about them. I do understand what you mean though, but if they put in those rules into the books, it would mean that they would have to remove stuff to make space or charge us more for the content, like that story at the end of the book (the prodical son) is really good. There's also the various history lessons and blurbs on various deities which are fantastic reads.
Kamelguru wrote: I am the primary offending party, and from what I saw at the time: A Gm making a paladin _FALL_ (which was the original issue) in an AP I have played, on a check I know to be next to impossible.... The Paladin is not the ruler, the party had a vote, and everyone vote for the Bard, as they felt the paladin would be too strict and impose his very strict LG views on the party. The bard on the other hand is CG and they felt that was more suited to the kind of Kingdom they would like to build. The composition of the party was mostly C and good with two CG members (a cleric of Cayden Cailen, and a bard) a druid (CN) and Paladin and LG Cavalier (he didn't want his brother the paladin to be incharge of him, so he voted for the bard out of spite). I am of the belief that paladins are one of the "stronger" classes in the game, but it comes at a steep price of being honor bound and the paladin code, hence why I would not play a paladin myself. I've seen really bad RP'er make horrible choices with paladin's and DM's taking thier powers away, it generally makes for bitter players, players leaving tables, or the best one i've seen is a player straight up changing thier character.
|