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Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
** spoiler omitted **Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
He does not want to mess with the formula. My source is James Jacobs. People always ask why can't we change _______ about the AP's. The answer is they don't want to mess with the formula for marketing reasons so if they ever deviate from it they would need a good reason.
I don't really care for level one, but a large number of gamers do, and there is no way to judge how taking that away would affect sales.
He will probably pop in here since these threads seem to get his attention.
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Because that's where most stories start. If you don't want to do it, don't. Start the group at 2nd or third level and let them steamroll the early parts of the story. No harm in that.
My other advice is simply to get better at surviving level 1.
A few suggestions-
I recommend War Dogs. (Blond Mastiff, from the PFSRD is a good choice). For an investment of 1 skill point in Handle Animal and *maybe* a trait (if you dumped Charisma) you've essentially got an extra melee party member or two for only 35 gold. Sure they become obsolete pretty quick, but it becomes an interesting character thing that may pay off later if your GM is cool (make it to 6th, take Leadership, take a dog as your Cohort and start piling on Barbarian levels).
Another suggestion is formation tactics. Color Spray and Sleep are really the only decent AoE spells you're going to run into, both of which you can be woken up from. A party with 3 characters carrying Tower shields can create a hemisphere of cover that is a real pain for enemies to deal with. (screw proficiency, carry them anyway. bonus points for the Deployable kind). While the bad guys are wasting rounds either trying to attack past them (good luck) or run around them, your archers/casters are busy pelting them. By the time they are an effective threat they're softened up. If your guys take a hit the healer is right there. This tactic is viable even past the advent of third level spells because Cover grants Evasion.
Finally, Combat Nets. Eat the non-proficiency penalty. It's a touch attack. If you have a high dex it should be about the same as making a normal attack roll on most enemies. Do this to casters and heavy melee types, they tend to have lower touch ACs. For added fun, tie the lead rope to the saddlehorn of a horse and slap it's ass as a free action after you net some poor sucker. At the very least it gets them out of your hair for a round or two while your crew mops up their buddies.
Surviving level one is about not getting hit. That doesn't mean having a high AC (though that helps). it just means keeping as much stuff between you and them as possible.
An adventure path is really a campaign; while I'm sure there are many reasons for starting play at 1st level, the big one for me was developing an attachment to your character, developing his/her personality from the beginning of the story to the end. Yes, 1st level characters are somewhat squishy, but that makes survival, and victory, more meaningful if you do survive.
I'm sure one could adopt any of the APs to begin with higher level characters. If you're the DM, there's no good reason you couldn't change any aspect of the adventure to suit your tastes, and the tastes of your players.
But for me, and my players - 1st level is a great place to start.
Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
** spoiler omitted **Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
Hmmm. WOuld it be possible to start an AP on the second book of the series? Just give the PCs a write up of 'the story so far' of the first book (heck most of the APs I've read usually start with a summary of what has happened up until that point). Most of the second books of the AP start at 4th level so its right in your 'sweet spot' for starting characters. Just make sure any NPCs the party was to have met already are introduced quickly.
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Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
** spoiler omitted **Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
I suspect the main reason is habit and history. Of course, the worst reason to not change something is it has always been done that way. Although, a related point is the worst reason to change something is it has always been done that way.
Hey, those are some EXCELLENT ideas. I am going to try that out... Thanks!
Glad to help.
Hmmm. WOuld it be possible to start an AP on the second book of the series? Just give the PCs a write up of 'the story so far' of the first book (heck most of the APs I've read usually start with a summary of what has happened up until that point). Most of the second books of the AP start at 4th level so its right in your 'sweet spot' for starting characters. Just make sure any NPCs the party was to have met already are introduced quickly.Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
** spoiler omitted **Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
It's the same as starting a television series from Episode 6 instead of Episode 1. You can do it. It's not recommended.
The first modules for almost every adventure path are either the best or the second best. The second modules are usually the best. Many third, fourth, fifth and sixth books are middling and lame, and none of them can compare to the first and second of their series. Don't skip the best parts.
It's the same as starting a television series from Episode 6 instead of Episode 1. You can do it. It's not recommended.
The first modules for almost every adventure path are either the best or the second best. The second modules are usually the best. Many third, fourth, fifth and sixth books are middling and lame, and none of them can compare to the first and second of their series. Don't skip the best parts.
Yeah, but shouldn't it be the norm that every part is as good as the others?
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Yeah, but shouldn't it be the norm that every part is as good as the others?It's the same as starting a television series from Episode 6 instead of Episode 1. You can do it. It's not recommended.
The first modules for almost every adventure path are either the best or the second best. The second modules are usually the best. Many third, fourth, fifth and sixth books are middling and lame, and none of them can compare to the first and second of their series. Don't skip the best parts.
Then it should also be the norm that films or books in a series should all be as good as one another. Things don't typically work that way.
Besides, the dynamic for each installment is going to change due to the PCs advancing in level, which leads to more power/abilities and less squishiness. Because of this, not every installment will be to each person's liking.
I personally like low level adventures, as it is the period where the characters really begin their evolution to what they will become. Very high level adventures, IMHO, tend to turn into massive slog fests with less RP opportunity. Everyone has their own take as to what is the "most fun" level to play.
They start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.
They also end at the end, if you consider 20th level to be the province of BBEGs and not players (which I do).
You could always skip the first book, and explain it as backstory.
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Meh my group would rather have APs that started at 4th level and ended at 25th...
<offtopic>which is also my way of saying that I'm less than pleased that Paizo isn't putting out very high level (level 21+) rules in 2012.</offtopic>
As long as there are no more APs that end at 13th level like Council of Thieves my group will begrudgingly limp along with APs that end at 17th level, which seems a shame as I end up with scenarios like.....
...snip...
Perhaps you should try some 3pp stuff out, maybe Slumbering Tsar.
If you want to carry on after an AP then you could use the City of Brass box set to extend an AP, or send the PCs to Colliseum Morpheum.|
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Well the adventure paths are designed to be a full campaign. Each players guide has traits tying your characters to the story. If you think of it like a movies, not starting at level one is like missing the expositions.
Though some players will want to run the same character throughout ever adventure path. My suggestion would be to have that character take the leadership feat and play his cohort or a follower at a lower level, and play his much more powerful character at a more appropriate challenge. Give ths player some diverse gameplay and allows them not to totally off balance the gameplay.
Otherwise you look at having to rewrite every encounter till the encounters are appropriate for the party. Even so...smart gamers make CR look like a waste of time. However, if that's what you enjoy doing, do what will make you and your players happiest. Nothing wrong with using a Path just for it's story and throwing your own challenges tailored at the group.
Meh my group would rather have APs that started at 4th level and ended at 25th...
I guess what I'm asking: Why does one require an entire new rule set to continue playing beyond 20th? Isn't the capability already there (with some tweaks, of course)?
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Perhaps you should try some 3pp stuff out, maybe Slumbering Tsar.
If you want to carry on after an AP then you could use the City of Brass box set to extend an AP, or send the PCs to Colliseum Morpheum.We (my gaming group) are huge fans of the Necromancer Games stuff, in particular Rappan Athuk Reloaded. I purchased the City of Brass box set when it came out a couple of years ago and it is definitely gonna get run as a campaign extender soon...once Pathfinder has rules for 21+ gaming.
Slumbering Tsar from Frog God Games is on my list to run next year once the hardcover is released (I'm a premium subscriber to the Slumbering Tsar campaign).
Sounds like we have similar tastes in adventures Geraint!
Good gaming to all,
DJF
Great minds think alike, apparently.
I'm lining up City of Fire as a follow-up for my RotRL group.
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This is my problem with the Adventure paths. My players have 1st level characters that reach about level 4. Their level 4 character dies or they get bored with it. They bring in a new character at level 4 and using PF only books, their level 4 character is over powered for the AP.
Example one player brought in a Barbarian Invulnerable Rager. With class and feats most monsters could not damage him due to his DR. That being said I still like the Adventure Paths as are just have to work harder at making then challenging.
This is my problem with the Adventure paths. My players have 1st level characters that reach about level 4. Their level 4 character dies or they get bored with it. They bring in a new character at level 4 and using PF only books, their level 4 character is over powered for the AP.
Example one player brought in a Barbarian Invulnerable Rager. With class and feats most monsters could not damage him due to his DR. That being said I still like the Adventure Paths as are just have to work harder at making then challenging.
Why is the new level 4 character stronger than the old one. If it is because he hand picks all of his new gear then give him gp equal to what the surviving party members have.
As for them being too powerful, that is subjective. If combats are too easy for you then you have to modify them. The AP's are mostly plug and play, but every group is different and no AP works for everyone so GM's will have to make adjustments.
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If you think of it like a movies, not starting at level one is like missing the expositions.
Well I disagree, you can still have expositions without being level 1. Let's say you start a level 3 fighter, he could be a veteran of a conflict and is disgusted by the actions of his superiors so he doesn't renlist and moves to a small town where a group of goblins conduct a raid of a small varisian town during the swallow tail festival and commissioning of the new temple that replaced the burnt down temple.
Oppose to a Level 1 fighter who just enlisted as part of the town guard in a small varisian town and his first assignment is act as guardsmen for the swallow tail festive and the commissioning ceremony of the new temple that is replacing the old burnt down one. Little did he know the a group of goblins were about to conduct a raid on the first day of his job.
Why do adventure paths begin at level 1?
That's where the money is. Simple economics.
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Why do adventure paths begin at level 1? I been looking through the various Adventure paths and I noticed that they all begin at Level 1, which I find to be the most boring level, and in some cases causes stretches of imagination.
Rise of Runelords part 1 for example.
** spoiler omitted **Level 1 also tends to be kind of fickle, it's very easy to die at level 1, and thus your character is wasted. Not only that but several of the fun abilities PC have start coming around level 3-6.
Well the simplest of reasons is that level 1 as other posters is a good place to start.
I have to admit while it might be a little tricky to survive level 1…I don’t mind it…. you have to be creative and think on your feet to survive level 1…. it isn’t boring it keeps you on your toes…and then when you get to level 2 3 4 5 etc, you have a feeling of accomplishment when you get to those levels…otherwise your cool stuff has been given to you and you haven’t earned it.
Has anyone already mentioned that the first, low level book in every AP is usually quite nice to very good?
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Ok here is my 2 copper:
First of all an AP is set up as a hero's journey. In hero's journey a hero of group of heroes start from humble beginnings and though adventures and challenges the hero gain abilities and items that help them complete there goals. Thats the way that what is accepted as good heroic literature goes. Why because the reader (or in this case the player) has a point of reference from where to judge there later adventures.
Second the first module in an AP is there to set the mood and the stage for the later mods. It is much easier to get these set up with a 1st level adventure where the PCs can be fish out of water then higher levels where PCs should be aware of the setting there in. This dose put me at odds with the "Settings don't matter" crowd, and I am glad to be there.
Third there is the why doesn't NPC X deal with the issue at hand and why does the 1st level PCs have to be involved? This goes back to good story telling. The PCs are the heroes of the story not the NPCs. Yes there may be some super wizard out there that could end the threat with the snap of hi fingers. But where is the fun in that?
Forth the low level mods in the APs are some of the best modules that PAIZO puts out. Why? Because at low level you can be more focused because there are allot less variables when it come to what the PCs can pull out.
So there it is my 2 Copper.
I always understood that it was unwillingness to gamble with commercial success. From the discussions on the boards, it seems uncontroversial that low level adventures sell considerably better than high level ones (all other things being 'equal' as far as that is possible).
Starting an AP at a high level thus runs the likely risk or reducing demand for the flagship, bread-and-butter line which keeps Paizo running. They'd have to be really sure that such a change was not going to be detrimental.
I always understood that it was unwillingness to gamble with commercial success. From the discussions on the boards, it seems uncontroversial that low level adventures sell considerably better than high level ones (all other things being 'equal' as far as that is possible).
Starting an AP at a high level thus runs the likely risk or reducing demand for the flagship, bread-and-butter line which keeps Paizo running. They'd have to be really sure that such a change was not going to be detrimental.
Besides, that's the niche that modules fill. I think we're more likely to see a module that follows onto a specific adventure path than we are to see an adventure path that starts past first level - and I support that strategy; I think it's good to tell the story from the beginning.
Darnet summed up just about everything I was going to say and did it much more eloquently.
My only addition would be at lvl 1 the ap's provide alot more flavor of the surroundings and key npc's which tend to be glossed over at the higher levels because they aren't quite as important to pc's that can teleport,summon,dimensional travel etc.
Also the surroundings can be useful in other ways that higher level pc's over look. Herbs for curing disease or lycanthropy vs a simple remove curse spell. Lower levels are great for details and environment so a level 1 really has to think to survive.
As far as surviving, even as a mage I had no problems with just being a little creative.
Unseen servant to reload the light crossbow, duck behind a tree for cover and a wizard can be a very effective low level archer.
My spartan wizard(D&D in ancient Greece) never cast a single spell till he was 3rd level because he was doing more damage with his crossbow. The players and characters alike were surprised when I used color spray to knock out some bandits and then they were like "were you always a wizard?"
1st through 3rd levels are some of the best levels to really explore the players ingenuity in overcoming problems.
Has anyone already mentioned that the first, low level book in every AP is usually quite nice to very good?
That's kind of my problem. I have a lot of good starting adventures from Paizo. I have no qualms with a group of adventurers, fer instance, saving a lumber town from local undead kobolds over five levels and THEN getting into a larger story arc to take them to 20.
In fact, I actually rather like the idea of having an opening adventure (or mini-series) disassociated from the Big Bad super campaign villain. A) it gives a player a chance to love or hate his character before he's committed to a 15-level storyline with him and 2) it better represents the type of game world I prefer where stuff just happens that doesn't always necessarily tie into one central plot.
So yeah, I'd definitely be in the market for an AP that I could start *after* my players finished Falcon's Hollow or Price of Immortality or even the first book of another AP which just didn't catch on.
You're also not shackled to the AP if you'd prefer to start at a higher level. My current Kingmaker GM adapted the first module so we could start it at our characters' present level (4). From what I can tell he's just scaling up the encounters and keeping the storyline the same (but as I haven't "read ahead" so to speak, I can't 100% verify this).
I also would think it'd be possible to adjust an AP so that your group's characters can enter into the middle of an evolving plot. Maybe some other party completed the legwork but heroically perished (or betrayed the people depending on them, or are stone-cold mercs whose prices finally became unaffordable, etc. etc.) Or you could adjust the storyline to represent trouble brewing over an extended period that has been dealt with by different people on a case-by-case basis up until the point where the party enters the scene.
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Perhaps another series of modules akin to the Osirion arc (J1 and J4)would fill this need? You are looking for a second campaign arc, but not an Adventure Path.
This is something I would love to see more of. Linked modules that are not APs or PFS.
Hint hint...Nudge nudge...Poke poke.....
Perhaps another series of modules akin to the Osirion arc (J1 and J4)would fill this need? You are looking for a second campaign arc, but not an Adventure Path.This is something I would love to see more of. Linked modules that are not APs or PFS.
Hint hint...Nudge nudge...Poke poke.....
Especially in the 15-20 range. Too many APs rap up before then, and yet I still have players who want to get all the way to their capstone abilities.
Especially in the 15-20 range. Too many APs rap up before then, and yet I still have players who want to get all the way to their capstone abilities.Perhaps another series of modules akin to the Osirion arc (J1 and J4)would fill this need? You are looking for a second campaign arc, but not an Adventure Path.This is something I would love to see more of. Linked modules that are not APs or PFS.
Hint hint...Nudge nudge...Poke poke.....
I think having APs wrap up before 20 still allows for players to get to 20 and get capstone abilities, and even a couple levels beyond 20 using the basic suggestions for post-20 play in the Core Rulebook. In my Kingmaker game most of my party has an excellent back story full of hooks that can go post-20.
I have a Dark Tapestry Oracle who is CG and resents the dark powers who have granted her unholy abilities, a former harem slave who escaped and wishes to plot revenge on her powerful, wealthy former owner, a former soldier whose powerful noble superiors tortured and killed an entire village believing they had information that was needed, a gunslinger who made enemies of a guild of ninja's and assassins, an up and coming cleric who will become a powerful force for her deity, a tiefling soulblade with no idea about his heritage and powers, and a half-orc who wants to someday overthrow his orc father and take over the tribe on his own.
Now, Kingmaker allows for the freedom to pursue these goals easily, but some of these goals(the Oracle wanting to take on the dark powers who grant her abilities and the tiefling with an unknown, powerful parent certainly) aren't going to be accomplished at lower levels. This allows me the freedom to weave in bits and pieces of their backstories into the campaign as well as end the campaign with an adventure or two centered on accomplishing these goals. To me these hooks are easily enough to get the group to, or even a level or 2 past, twenty, and I feel like I would have a harder time putting these threads into the game if the Kingmaker AP went to 20 before the finish.
Having run a few APs I've found some seem be a waste of time getting from 1st to 2nd like Cot and KM. Both these APs could have started at Level 3 and no one would notice.
Perhaps another series of modules akin to the Osirion arc (J1 and J4)would fill this need? You are looking for a second campaign arc, but not an Adventure Path.
Yes please, but only because the Osirion adventures you named were awesome just in and of themselves. Taken together, they become double plus awesome.
However, I do appreciate a good long-term AP. Hopping from one adventure to the other is too far to the other extreme. I guess what I'm saying is that a single story arc/villainous plot is too narrow, but multiple villainous plots becomes too scattershot.
My gut tells me that a six-level mini-Path followed by a 14-level Adventure Path (followed by a 5-level epic Path) is my sweet spot.
Not everyone is an experienced player aswell. And starting an adventure path at level 1 is great for new players aswell. My sister never played dnd, and she felt comfortable starting at level one when I ran Kingmaker. It's an easier progression for newer players then starting at level 2-20.
I'm also secretly hoping a late-start AP will be an option for new players just finishing the Starter Set.
I feel like it'll be kind of disappointing to graduate at level five only to find out you'll need to start a new character if you want to participate in the flagship line of Paizo's Adventure Paths.
I'm also secretly hoping a late-start AP will be an option for new players just finishing the Starter Set.
I feel like it'll be kind of disappointing to graduate at level five only to find out you'll need to start a new character if you want to participate in the flagship line of Paizo's Adventure Paths.
That's one of the best arguments I've seen for a late start AP. It's probably just as easily served by a 3 module campaign arc, but still - nice idea, imo.
Allow to start at level 2 but with the gold from level one?
It's the same as starting a television series from Episode 6 instead of Episode 1. You can do it. It's not recommended.The first modules for almost every adventure path are either the best or the second best. The second modules are usually the best. Many third, fourth, fifth and sixth books are middling and lame, and none of them can compare to the first and second of their series. Don't skip the best parts.
Yeah look at what fox did to firefly...
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but higher level statblocks necessarily take up more room on the page, and higher level tactics take more page space too. Any AP that started later would have to be shorter.
Creative Director
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I've answered this several times before, but I suppose it bears repeating:
We don't start APs at above 1st level because without including those first few levels, it gets increasingly difficult to build stories that have strong starts. At 1st level, we can assume a LOT of what PCs were up to before, since they weren't yet adventurers. We can use things like traits and the like to set up adventure paths, and we don't have to worry about where the PCs gained those first few levels. Furthermore, the vast majority of our customers DO prefer APs that start at 1st level.
And due to the way XP works and how higher-level encounters take up more space... if the hope was to have an AP that reaches 20th level... I suspect we'd have to start at like 10th level to get there.
But the MAIN reason we don't start them at above 1st level is that we've NEVER done so, and the popularity of the AP line continues to increase, so that tells me we're not doing much at all wrong with it, so I'm very hesitant to make significant changes like not starting at 1st level.
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Furthermore, the vast majority of our customers DO prefer APs that start at 1st level.
Indeed!
Also, while I may play a 'one shot' mod with higher PCs, when I recruit, join or run a campaign I always want to start at 1st level.
When I first started playing I was all about getting to the high levels, I could not wait to hit 'name level' or higher.
"Hey at level 18 I can cast Wish, lets get to the Abyss and kill stuff."
But as I have matured ('cough' aged 'cough) I realized that the story was just as important, and stories can be told at any level. I love getting to start at level 1, now I just don't feel the great need to rush to level 20.
(Interestingly enough, even through several edition and even entirely new game system changes, as long as I can remember, my favorite levels to DM and to play as a pc have been levels 5 to 7.)
I've answered this several times before, but I suppose it bears repeating:
We don't start APs at above 1st level because without including those first few levels, it gets increasingly difficult to build stories that have strong starts. At 1st level, we can assume a LOT of what PCs were up to before, since they weren't yet adventurers. We can use things like traits and the like to set up adventure paths, and we don't have to worry about where the PCs gained those first few levels. Furthermore, the vast majority of our customers DO prefer APs that start at 1st level.
And due to the way XP works and how higher-level encounters take up more space... if the hope was to have an AP that reaches 20th level... I suspect we'd have to start at like 10th level to get there.
But the MAIN reason we don't start them at above 1st level is that we've NEVER done so, and the popularity of the AP line continues to increase, so that tells me we're not doing much at all wrong with it, so I'm very hesitant to make significant changes like not starting at 1st level.
All good reasons; there is absolutely no harm in those groups that are keen to start their AP from part 2, 3 or 4 onwards. Sure there is great build-up and history if an AP is played from its proper start. But if a group wants to play with level 10 characters; there is nothing stopping them from starting at the appropriate part of the adventure path.
At least 3 of the Modules line are linked,
Start at crypt of the Everflame work to Temple of Golden Death.
These start at level 1, but they do show a precedent.
I like the APs to start at lvl1. When the AP is done if you need more beyond the "continuing the campaign" section just have the players make an attack at the heart of the World Wound. TPK mwuhahaha.
Printed high level adventures(18+) are lame most of the time. They're hard to write because individual games are so different at these levels.
A few points here that didn't seem addressed that I felt I could chime my 2 coppers on. It was mentioned that starting an AP at a higher level couldn't really hurt them that much if it isn't well recieved. Mr. Jacobs has refuted this idea, as a bad AP hurts them very much, since it is an entire half a year of their flagship products. That is why they are VERY careful about changes and availability of plot. They have made missteps before and are careful not to again (Off the top of my head I believe the missing level between adventures in Second Darkness or Legacy of FIre I believe, and the Set Piece adventures are the big ones they decided not to do anymore). Honestly I would prefer they keep with the 1-16/17 advancement for APs, but I would also like to see more linked modules for mid level arcs and more high level modules as well. There was an arc in Dungeon called something akin to "Scars of Sehenine or Secrets of Sehenine" or something of that nature involving demonic warping of creatures and toxic creatures that was cool and I think it started at like level 5 and went to 12 or 14. I would love to see more module series like that...
On another point, I really enjoyed their first 3 APs in Dungeon Magazine, pre pathfinder. They went to 20ish and were very long as a result (12 or 13 issues worth but still clocking in at something akin to 40 pages IIRC) I haven't seen a lot of games hit those levels and definately not many APs survive the whole thing. Also sometimes the encounters are just more than casual players can handle