I started playing 3.5 in 2007, tried 4e and didn't like it quite as much, and then the year before I started college a friend of mine told me how the company that published WotC's "Dungeon" and "Dragon" magazines was making their own 3.75 game. We tried the playtest together, and have been Paizo/PF fans since. I started as the only person in my family who games, and two years ago had the incredible experience of organizing multiple tables of play, GMed by my siblings, at a family reunion.
I was only a player for a few years, and since college I've almost exclusively GMed. I've participated in a few PBPs, none that lasted more than a few months, have run several short games over VTT, and recently discovered PBD, which I am thoroughly enjoying. Despite how long I've been playing, the actual time I've spent at the table has been pretty patchwork, and I feel like I'm only a so-so GM, so I'm very interested in learning new tools and techniques to run great games across all platforms.
I'm interested in the PBP GM School! Will there be some kind of sign-up sheet posted here later, or is there somewhere I can go for more info now? Thank you!
Dotting for interest. It's been a while since I've played in anything other than Golarion, so I'll need to spend some time getting properly acquainted with the setting, but I'm definitely intrigued.
Ahhhh ok. I'm going to throw in on this with a revised version of my occultist, Aemon Grahame. I'll need to tweak some things, re-build him as an retired criminal/information broker rather than a retired adventurer/scholar.
Would you be open to letting me use this version of the Eberron Changeling? It was built using the Advanced Race Guide (build notes are at the bottom of the page), and it would really fit the idea of a creature that Lamm could force into servitude and benefit his organization, and would also be helpful in his current career as an information broker. If you're uncomfortable with a character that can disguise himself basically at will, I won't feel bad about keeping him human :)
Scaling casters back to cut out level 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells is a perfectly viable way to tone down casters, but what effect it has on "The World" depends a lot on how you envision your setting to begin with. It's generally accepted that casters of a high enough level to cast 7th+-level spells are really rare anyway, with less than a dozen level 17+ level wizards/clerics/druids in the entire world (not canon, just my guess-timate). So if you want to know what it would change about the world, consider what casters of that power are capable of, and decide how much they'd be affecting things normally.
Honestly, I would say the net change is negligible. Casters who are incredibly powerful are so rare that they don't often affect things in a meaningful way, and if they do (or did, as in the case of the Runelords or pre-deity-Aroden), then they could do those things because they were special and you said so.
If you're asking what it means for your game, that's an entirely different question. Most homebrewers agree that casters start to get out of hand with 4th- and 5th-level spells, relative to non-casters, which is why E6 (which, if you aren't familiar with, you should have a look at) is a popular play option. Mad makes a good point, in that most spells can be abused in a way that they weren't (or were, in some cases) intended to be, but removing the top three spell levels means that there won't be any Wishing or Gate-ing going on.
I actually really like the idea of advancing based on a set number of story beats rather than scaling experience points. I'm interested to hear how your experiments with this go! Also, I definitely agree with using the Automatic Scaling Bonuses. I've trained my groups for the last five years not to bother with looting.
It amazes me how many people jump up to say that the fighter doesn't need changing. It's like claiming that there's not a martial-caster disparity. It's just one of those things that seems self-evident to me anymore that the fighter is just incredibly dull as a class. Yeah, anybody can role-play, but . . . meh. Nevermind.
Ok, what I really jumped on to say is that I really like the Kirthfinder fighter. Between the changes to feats, the fighter talents, and other changes, building a Kirthfinder fighter was really the first time I've ever built a fighter and actually felt satisfied with the result.
Fighter v. Avenger Vigilante:
Also, man, I know I'm late to the party, but the avenger vigilante beats the fighter for me hands-down. Even if you completely remove the social bonuses. So many vigilante talents are either "a feat with extra stuff" (Cunning Feint, Favored Maneuver, Fist of the Avenger, Lethal Grace) or straight-up multiple feats (Shield of Fury[yeah, shield only, because that's somehow a bad thing], Signature Weapon, Strike the Unseen), not to mention the abilities that can't be replicated by feats (Mad Rush, Nothing Can Stop Me, Perfect Fall) completely trumps, to me, the bonus feats and other piddly bonuses (I'm looking at you, Bravery) that the fighter gets. Variety, mechanics, fun, the avenger wins hands-down for me.
I think I posted in here sometime last year, has it just been bestiary stuff going on since then? Or have there been updates to the core rules as well?
I applaud your idea, and look forward to experimenting. While I agree with some of the things that your detractors are saying (like that it's nigh-impossible to really balance the system due to infinite variables involved), I think doing something is far, far better than doing nothing. Keep questioning, keep experimenting, and game on :)
That's understandable, I think. While the house rules are pretty much handled by Mittean, that initial announcement for them did underplay their significance. Well, hopefully after a few combats you'll be able to give us some more opinions :)
I'm curious, is it just the not knowing that bothers you? The changes don't affect the way you play in any way. There's no additional work you have to do, no changes to the way you would act during your turn. So is it just the lack of transparency that has you unsettled?
Yeah, Mittean and I have been doing descriptive combat for years, but we wanted more. It's not just a matter of description or abstraction, we wanted more off-turn player involvement, and we wanted combat to be more dynamic.
The inspiration for the direction we took was originally Shadow of Mordor, which in turn got us looking at Assassin's Creed and Arkham City. Defending in those games isn't about not getting hit, it's about temporarily putting the attacker out of the fight, and that's what we wanted to replicate. Shoving someone away, throwing them to the ground, breaking or taking away their weapon, making it so the other guy has to work to hurt you. We didn't want to just describe it, either--we wanted it to have tactical and mechanical impact.
EDIT
Obviously the off-turn player involvement thing isn't as apparent in play-by-post combat, since we all agreed early on to let Mittean handle the off-turn mechanics for us, but the difference at the table is pretty remarkable. People aren't just sitting and waiting for their turns, they're watching the combat and seeing how they can use the next attack against them to turn the combat in the party's favor. It's pretty awesome :)
Statistically, the 10.5 average of whoever is rolling in a normal game always beats the static 10 added to AC and Save DCs, so by your logic we shouldn't bother rolling when an attacker's and defender's bonuses are the same. I have my own reservations about rolling all the dice, but statistics don't represent round-by-round combat. We're also experimenting with attaching effects to the difference between the attack roll and the defense roll, which even between perfectly equal opponents can be a gap of 19 points. That's a lot of wiggle room to play with if we want to attach an additional effect to a 5-point gap versus a 15-point gap.
However, if it's OK with you I'd like to shelve the active-versus-static defense discussion for now, as it isn't really vital to the Reaction mechanic, which is about getting to do things when other people try to do things to you. If you're not clear on the distinction I'll be happy to explain :)
Alright, let me see if I can address your concerns about the system.
First, your point about monsters advancing faster and having a faster scaling CMD is valid. Our playtests with this system have all been level 5 or below, and we're aware that we may have to tweak some things as we go to keep the PCs competitive. However, that's really the only way the Reaction rules are skewed against the PCs.
One of the major balancing factors is that fewer than 10% of enemies even get Reactions. If you go back and read through the fight with the wagon party, you'll see that only the lead goblins was taking Reactions. That's on purpose. It's not a completely hard and fast rule, but generally speaking only named enemies will have Reactions, while the PCs get to take them against anybody.
As far as confusion about how it works, this is the post Mittean put up a few weeks ago with a brief explanation:
mittean wrote:
Rather than the goblins attacking your static ACs (RAW), or even [your] rolled AC's (active defense), you attempt a counter of some sort when someone attacks you. A parry, bull rush, disarm, trip...etc. Some counter, that makes your defense active and involved, rather than stand there boring. Most of the time you will not be doing damage with a reaction...you'll be using them strategically. Disarming opponents, re-positioning them to where they are threatened by other party members, knocking them over, etc.
We roll CMD because we're using the active defense rules variant, and that applies to Maneuver Defense the same as it applies to regular defense rolls.
You honestly don't need to worry about whether you're optimized for this system. Your standard tactics should still work fine, and we specifically made adjustments so that people who didn't optimize for combat maneuvers would still be able to be effective. If you'd like a detailed breakdown of exactly how these rules work and why we made the design choices we did, I'm working on writing one and I can post it here when I'm done, and I can answer any other specific questions in the interim :)
Also, I'd like to start a discussion about the Reaction system. I helped Mittean design it, and we've run it at the table a few times with really positive results and feedback. We're still trying to smooth out some lumps specific to the play-by-post format, but I wanted to hear this group's thoughts about it. Obviously the Docks party hasn't really had a chance to see it in action, but you can read back through the Wagon party's posts to get a sense of it.
For those who have actually gotten to try it, what did you think? Was the combat any more interesting for you? Did it feel more like a real fight? Was it just completely confusing?
Ehhh . . . Entitled to your opinion, but if the thing I'm fighting has better maneuverability than me, I'd want to fight it somewhere the terrain suited me a little better. Against something that can jump twice my height, run on walls, and smash through cover like it doesn't exist, fighting it in an open space makes way more sense, because I can at least confine the fight to two dimensions.
As to whether or not we'd run from this thing . . . I think that's kind of messy, honestly. I don't feel like Mittean gave us enough information about what the thing was doing/trying to do for us to make an informed decision about how we wanted to react. I mean, I can't think of a motivation for it that sticks. If it was starving, I would expect it to grab one or both of the corpses and backed up to eat them, maybe threatening us first. If it was just scared and wanted to escape, it probably wouldn't have given away its hiding place by attacking in the first place, and it wouldn't have kept making grabs at us.
Instead, it acted like a pretty standard monster, without real motivation, attacking somebody because it was there and then chasing people because they were running. Now, Garrick's reaction to seeing a monster might be to draw sword and face it down, because he thinks he's a bad*** like that, and I can't speak for WSBY, but Satinder 100% would have run. He's not a soldier, he's not a cop, he's not even a PI anymore. He's literally a clerk right now, and he knows exactly how dangerous that creature is. To him, fighting a monster like that without a plan is straight-up suicide, so he ran. Which, by the way, could be a great character moment if Garrick decides that Satinder is a coward because of that. Yay, in-party conflict!
By the way, this is an absolutely fantastic article about conflict and motivation in combat, starting at
"2: Conflicts – Because Nothing is Ever Easy"
I understand why you made the decision you did, but here's the thing: anything else you possibly could have been done would have been less railroad-y than taking my character away from me to railroad him to where you wanted to go. You're frustrated with how single-minded players can be when it comes to combat, but that's only of how the game is designed. If you want us to act differently, show us the other options.
If you had dropped info that said, "Fighting a giant spider in an enclosed space is a terrible idea and you will die," it would probably have been relayed to the party and we probably would have run. I realize you kind of did drop that information to someone, and site interruptions kept that person from warning the rest of us, but normally that would probably work.
If probably isn't good enough, you could have said, "The giant spider will kill you if you don't get out of the hold, so instead of a combat this will be a series of skill challenges to get on deck safely," and there might have been grumbling, but at least there's precedent for it with skill challenges and Angry's Chase suggestions.
I would have loved to have seen this quick-time-event idea so I could offer suggestions or critiques about it.
You've got a bunch of smart players here, or we wouldn't have made it through your selection process, so let us help you work these ideas out. Tell us how you want the game to change and let us try it.
I won't speak for any of the other players, but I'm really not comfortable with that. If you wanted to cut and say, "The Rhagodessa chases you up the stairs,", that would be one thing. But if you're going to put my character through, essentially, two rounds of an involved action chase scene, then let me play my character. That scene looks like it would have been a blast to play. Instead, because you didn't trust that I would make smart choices for my character, you took that option away.
If a decision I make for my character might get me killed, then I appreciate a nudge in a more believable or safer direction, but I need to have the final say in the actions of my character, especially in a scene that seems like it would have been really cool to play through.
I really love the story that's been happening, I love your narrative flow, I love how different it is from the other games I've been a part of and from RotRL as written. That said, please don't ever do something like that with my character again.
So . . . what exactly is going on in that combat/cutscene, mechanically speaking? I see the monster taking at least three separate actions, and Garrick taking . . . one? And Satinder took one or two as well, maybe? Sorry, it just seems like the crunch given doesn't really match up with the homebrew rules you told us to expect, so I'm a little confused.
*Note*
Jack almost died while watching Templar Nation, but it was because Jack was gulping his gin at every mistake instead of sipping it. It's a pretty silly film, but it's fun to check out.
Satinder was almost through the door when he heard the distinctive crack of an open hand striking bare flesh, and he heard the young halfling woman cry out in shock. The sound halted him as abruptly as if he'd run into a wall. He stood with his hand on the door, Saint-Demain already walking away from the crowded brothel into the night.
"Run away from me, poppet?" snarled a male voice--that would be Malket, the half-orc proprietor. Well-groomed for a half-orc, just under six feet, short hair, clean teeth, scar over left eye--the description rattled aimlessly in Satinder's head as he heard the girl cry out again, followed by the sound of someone spitting. The crowd roared with approval, and Satinder's hand tightened slowly on the door knob. Saint-Demain finally realized he was walking alone and turned around, cocking his head at his apprentice.
"Something wrong, boy?"
The sounds continued in the crowded hall. He heard something wet splashing, the girl choking and gagging, and another voice--(Mags Crowley, madame, human, missing top left incisor, broken nose)--crowed, "What's the matter, girl? Didn't you miss our fine ale?" The crowd roared again, louder, as the girl coughed and spluttered and began to cry.
He turned, shifting his grip on his cane to a one that would let him draw the blade easily, and took all of two steps into the building before a hand on his shoulder hauled him back roughly. Another hand seized the wrist of his sword arm, keeping him from drawing.
"What the hell do you think you're doing, Satinder?"
Saint-Demain's grip was strong, and Satinder knew the older man could twist him into a sailor's knot if he wanted, so he didn't struggle, but he didn't relax either.
"I won't stand by while they torture that girl, master."
Saint-Demain gave an exasperated sigh.
"You knew she would be punished for running away, boy."
Satinder released the hilt of his cane, and Saint-Demain allowed him to turn so they could face each other.
"Punished, yes. But this isn't punishment, it's . . ."
He trailed off, looking back to where the small form was now being tossed from person to person in the crowd, hands tearing at her dress, her hands clutching at her rapidly disappearing clothing and her head flopping loosely as she was flung about.
"They're treating her like she's not even human."
Saint-Demain shook his head and leaned against the doorframe.
"Well, in point of fact, she's not," he began, and raised a hand when Satinder's eyes flashed.
"She's a runaway, Satinder. From a brothel. She's the next thing to property, and there's not a damn thing you can do about what's happening without starting a fight that will get you killed and her beaten for the trouble. Maybe there will be a time when a client wants Malket or Mags dealt with, but tonight is not that time."
He stared Satinder down, hard, until the young man's shoulders slumped. He didn't look back again as they walked away into the night, but that didn't stop him from seeing the fear and humiliation on the girl's face. Eventually, his anger faded, replaced by something else, something deeper. Malket and Mags weren't worthy of anger, he decided sometime later that night. They were nothing more than vermin.
And someday, he would stamp them out.
Yeah, this one got away from me a little, but I hate to cut a scene short when it's going so well. If it wasn't clear (and I'm not sure it was), what Satinder is disgusted by isn't necessarily abuse or punishment, but using embarrassment and humiliation as punishment. He considers that inhumane and vulgar and completely outside the bounds of justice in any sense.
Though she spoke softly in the crowded room, the warm, feminine voice slipped easily between the other sounds of the party--the murmured conversation, the clink of glasses, the instruments of the chamber musicians--to Satinder's ears, and he turned, already knowing who he would find.
"Milady Shelyn ir'Marasha," he said, giving the lovely young woman a brief bow. "How could I forget?"
Shely, a short woman with dark hair and dark eyes, smiled slightly, looking away as his eyes met hers.
"I hoped you'd say something like that. You made quite an impression on me at our first meeting, Master Hawkes."
"Did I?" Satinder raised his eyebrows, the corners of his mouth curling up in a smile. "What kind of an impression did I make?"
"Well,"Shelyn said, gesturing for him to walk with her as she turned to cross the edges of the room, "do you remember who was escorting me the last time we spoke?"
Satinder nodded. "Of course. Viscount Nathaniel ir'Demmel. I believe the party was being held in his honor. What about him?"
Shelyn glanced up at him as he walked beside her, her dark eyes dancing. The look shot straight through Satinder's body, and he suddenly found himself very warm and very aware of this young woman. The part of his mind that had been analyzing politics and alliances all evening faltered, and for a moment all he noticed was the gentle curl of her hair, the curve of her lips, and the way her dress wrapped around her.
"Do you see him with me now, Master Hawkes?"
They reached a doorway opening out into dimly lit gardens and walkways, and she paused.
"Master Hawkes, I would like to take a walk through the gardens. Will you accompany me? I would very much like to know you better."
Satinder hesitated briefly, turning and scanning the party for his master. He found Saint-Demain conversing with a group of nobleman. Saint-Demain's gaze met Satinder's momentarily, flickered to Shelyn and the open doorway, then back to Satinder. He rolled his eyes and returned to the conversation, though Satinder thought he saw the barest hint of a smile on his master's face. He turned back to Shelyn.
Can I just say, I freaking love how much we're digging into our characters and backgrounds here. I haven't seen RP this deep outside of World of Darkness and I'm digging it :)
Well, I already have my mom for my NPC, and I'll give a short description of Aemon as my replacement.
Aemon Grahame:
Aemon Grahame is a dark-skinned man in his late 40s. He adventured when he was younger, but he returned from his last expedition in his 20s harrowed and ruined. He was a drunk for years before his father's death motivated him to use the last of his funds to attend an academy and become educated. He retired to Sandpoint with his library and some knick-knacks, working as a scribe and occasionally selling things from his shop. He became Satinder's mentor shortly after Satinder and his mother arrived in Sandpoint, and they have remained close since.
And if I can double up on Aemon's purpose, I think it's perfectly reasonable that he may have had adventures on the Talenta Plains in his youth, and may very well have encountered Watches-Shadow-Behind-You, perhaps as a guide.
I also sent you some questions in email that weren't answered, so I'll go ahead and post them here.
Character Sheet/House Rule questions:
1. How are we doing bonus languages? 2. Are we using 4e style save bonuses? 3. Why do we have Defense, Touch, and FF on the template? Defense and Touch should be the same thing, shouldn't they? They're both 10+stuff that isn't armor.
Information/background added, but I thought you said we got a campaign trait as a bonus trait, so we had two regular traits, a campaign trait, and two traits from drawbacks if we take them. Did I misunderstand?
Mittean is about town and asked me to post on his behalf on the subject of Flaws, Feats, Drawbacks, and Traits.
We can each take up to two flaws and up to two drawbacks. Each flaw taken also allows you to take a bonus feat that you qualify for, and each drawback taken allows you to take an additional trait. Furthermore, Mittean is lifting the "only one trait per trait category" restriction, with a reminder to focus on flavor at least as much as crunch.
Link to the list of flaws that Mittean would like us to use.
Link to the list of Pathfinder drawbacks.
Link to the list of Pathfinder traits.
He also asked me to get us started linking our characters together and working out why each of us is in Sandpoint.
Satinder is 19, and while he's been away for a few years he is still, for all intents and purposes, a Sandpoint local. He's well-read and well-dressed, and tends to stick out in a town with a mostly uneducated working-class populous. He didn't have many friends even before he went Sharn, and since coming back he's found it even more difficult to fit in.
While Sandpoint is hardly a hotbed of political intrigue, the town's scandals and gossip are as close as he can get to the machinations he enjoyed in Sharn, and so he has taken to tracking the activities of people in town for fun. He's starved for culture and good conversation, and is likely to gravitate towards educated individuals while distancing himself from more "common" people. He's also likely to be envious of anyone of nobility, since he has claimed noble blood himself but has no real way to prove it.
Off the cuff, I can see him being intrigued by Three, Khravos, and Watches-Shadows-Behind-You as cultural oddities.
He's probably baffled by Daxur, as goblins are seen as dangerous in Sandpoint and thugs and thieves in Sharn. He wouldn't know what to do with someone who so blatantly shatters his expectations.
Since Garrick is noble and served in the war, making him at least 10 years Satinder's elder, Satinder will probably subconsciously connect Garrick with his father. This is likely to come across as a rivalry, with Satinder trying to gain Garrick's approval and respect while simultaneously trying to prove to himself that he doesn't need a figure like this.
Satinder also has a mother, Delara, who is in her late 30s, he works for the mayor, and he's friends with the town antiquarian and bookstore owner, Aemon Grahame.
Hello, all! I'm Jack, utah-based as well. I'm a freelance composer/arranger and amateur writer. I started gaming with 3.5 in 2007, and since then one of my hobbies has been collecting roleplaying games and studying narrative systems. I'm an avid reader, and my favorite authors lately are Jim Butcher, Brandon Sanderson, and Patrick Rothfuss. I'm very much looking forward to this game, I think this group is going to have a great dynamic and it's going to make for a great story :)
Interested. I've got this thought for an alchemist or occult character whose main drive is to investigate the weirdness surrounding the roses. S/he would see this as an opportunity to get paid to investigate a mystery, with acceptable risks. Would that work with what you have planned?
Hello! I've gotten a few different versions of this in the last few years, I was just wondering when the most recent update happened to see if I need to update as well :) Thanks!
Edit
I double-checked, and the version I have now is from last July. I don't suppose you have an official change-log somewhere . . .
Looking at the PF SRD I'm not really sure I want to use that feat the rules are all over the place for that and I think my DM won't be down for the gun portion
Just curious, what do you mean by "all over the place"? Is there something about the firearm rules that doesn't make sense to you, or are you just generally opposed to getting guns in your medieval fantasy? It's always a good idea for a caster to have a backup, only-for-emergencies physical weapon, and guns are kind of awesome for that.
As to the build:
Not super for optimizing, but great for RP, would be the Bruising Intellect trait (Intimidate as a class skill and use Int instead of Cha for the skill), flavored as Harry being an acerbic twit. I personally disagree with the Int to UMD trait, as Harry doesn't actually have a need for UMD. He crafts all of his own magic/wondrous items, and therefore doesn't really need to fake his way through requirements. Something to help him with crafting at some point would be great, though.
I'm also not sure I agree with Spell Focus:Evocation, as Harry points out several times (especially early in his career) that he's actually not very good at it. He has lots of raw power, but what he excels at is divination (lost objects found, gathering information, etc.).
The only focus power that jumps out at me for Evocation is Energy Blast, as most of the other ones are better covered by other abilities (Energy Ward vs Energy Shield) or just patently not Harry (Shape Mastery). For Abjuration, I'd say it's a coin-flip between Aegis flavored as the added protection on Harry's leather jacket(which could totally be an Armored Coat because of the lack of ASF for psychic magic), or Loci Sentry for Harry's "wards".
For your feats, I would say that one of Harry's defining traits is that he just. Keeps. Getting. Up. Toughness would make a lot of sense, as would Diehard depending on how nice your DM is about waiving pre-reqs/giving bonus feats for RP/background purposes (because, Endurance. Blech.) Also, picking up the Craft feats (especially Wondrous Item and Brew Potion) make a lot of sense. It makes me sad that the potion thing kind of died off a little ways in, but oh well.
It's too bad that there's not an option to base the occultist abilities on Wis instead of Int, as Harry's powers really come more from his willpower and sense of self much more than they do from book learning. He literally has an artifact/cohort to make up for the fact that he's not particularly knowledgeable, but he's incredibly canny and perceptive. C'est la vie.
I love the flavor of the occultist, but it's kind of unfortunate that there are so few good options for people who want to play it like a real caster. Most of the best builds people are coming up with are built around transmutation and bane abilities, which really isn't Harry.
Aside from those thoughts and opinions, I think he looks great! I don't think he's particularly sub-optimal, and I hope you have a ton of fun playing him!
EDIT
+1 for a Ring of the Ram. There's optional (possibly 3rd party) rules somewhere for wearing multiple rings, and if your DM would let you swing it then having multiples of those would be fun.
