Ricle Peakes

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505 posts. 12 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Just because you can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that you should do that thing.


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When my players play classes that do not get teamwork feats for free, they still take them.

They use them often and consider them quite valuable.

They often choose their PC concepts at the beginning of the game and at about third to sixth level look and see if any of the teamwork feats fit in between some of their concepts. If they find one they like then they take it.


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Carborundum, the reason that it is someones fault is because that someone piddled away his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.


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Mr. McBride dropped the ball on filling the niche market for "evil AP's" that he created.

Paizo picked that ball up.

This is nobody's fault but Mr. McBride.

He should have known this was coming eventually. I did.

Instead he piddled away his 15 minutes until Paizo took his niche market from him.


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I cannot believe that this is even being argued about, much less that it has gone on for 200+ posts.

The rules clearly state that using a long or short bow requires two hands.
A bow requires two hands to load.
A bow requires two hands to aim.
A bow requires two hands to loose an arrow.

Do not look now, but that bow wielder just used two hands to attack.

The intent is quite clear.

Any who wish may go back to pretending otherwise now.


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Sorry, but IMHO Combat Expertise is extremely useful in its current form.

It is useful for Sword and Board as well as two-handed warrior types.

I am not the only one with this opinion either. Ashiel recently went over its usefulness in depth in another thread.

I am prepping for my weekly Carrion Crown game at the moment though and do not have time to chase down that post.

Please be aware that this is a non-issue at many tables.


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Duiker wrote:
Is there any idea when this will be back in print? It is allowing backorders instead of just saying it's out of stock, so I assume that means there's actually a plan of some sort since the system is still willing to take money?

AAW still has a few copies left for sale on their site.


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What attack?

All I did was more evenly distribute the love being shared here.

In a small fraction of the time it took to list just over a dozen types of problem DM's I managed to list almost twice as many classifications of troublesome players. And I did it without even bothering to try and create an exhaustive list.


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Here are some suggestions just to get that player thread working.

1)The Gas-Lighter
2)The Rule Lawyer
3)The Mis-Quoter
4)The Partial-Language Parser
5)The Dissembler
6)The Optomizer-In-Denial
7)The "Fun" Tromper
8)The Penny Pincher
9)The "Creative" Crafter
10)The Alpha Optimizer
11)The Unprepared Player
12)The "Unwritten Rules" Hater
13)The Bad Handwriter
14)The Forum Freak
15)The "I know I bought this" Player
16)The RP Hater
17)The "I Only Play One Class" Player
18)The Developer-Rulings-Only Player
19)The Combat Hater
20)The Class-Guide Player (AKA The Color-Code-Cloner)

There, I figure 20 types of troublesome players ought to get the ball rolling.

Discuss!


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Funny thread.

Now do one about players, please.

You know, just to spread all that love evenly.


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It is not just about DPR.

Using these feats Dex becomes the only attribute to ever supply bonuses to AC, to hit and to damage simultaneously.

I am not saying that it is OP.

I am not saying that it is not OP.

I am only saying that there are other considerations besides DPR.


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Int 2 wolves are guided by 300 million plus years of evolution-driven instincts that are unclouded by the burdens of sentience.

Plus they use different rules.


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Hello all,

I recently posted the last portion of my own version of Throne of Night, Part 4 (The Politicians).

Feel free to plunder this for ideas or material for your own game.

:

So a few months after the party secures Dammerhall and begins attracting hordes of surface dwarves to their reclaimed capitol several political entities among the dwarves make their presence known. Among these are the dwarven clans of the HarrowHelms (the only clan with a surviving bloodline claim to the throne) as well as the influential Firebrothers and Stonetalker mercantile clans. In addition to these remaining houses of Dammerhall an organization of dwarven priests and priestesses known as the Children of the First Stone join them. When the HarrowHelms arrive (led by Harrig HarrowHelm LN Ml Dw Ftr 10/Aristo 7) they ask for an audience with the PC's to discuss their claim to Dammerhall. They feel that their family should be allowed the rule of this new nation and it should be obvious that they have support amongst both the mercantile clans as well as among the Children of the First Stone. If asked about their plans for Dammerhall they admit that they intend to seal the city from the dangers of the realms below for all time. They may demand an opportunity to challenge the HarrowHelms claims of sovereignty (after all they are Dwarven Lords and Ladies and they DID recover Dammerhall from the clutches of numerous monsters). This requires a Diplomacy test (DC 35+) to garner enough support from the Firebrothers, Stonetalkers and Children of the First Stone to grant them a stay of judgement on the part of the Children of the First Stone for the duration of six months. During this six months both the PC's and the HarrowHelms are each charged with providing proof that they alone are fit to rule. For the HarrowHelms this is a simple matter. Their bloodline contains all the right they need. For the PC's this is a much more difficult matter to address. They need a sign from the gods. They need something that, in some way, shows that their rule will be bold, decisive, wise and prosperous. In my own campaign I used this as a device for introducing a large number of side quests into the campaign. Let the players garner support in whatever ways they feel comfortable. I suggest having them prove their mettle by acquiring rare crafting materials from the realms below for the Children of the First Stone. They can also work to secure trade commodities from the other non-dwarven settlements in their kingdom for the Firebrothers and the Stonetalkers. They may even go so far as to form trade routes and treaties with both surface dwellers and the folk below to help garner support from the merchant clans. If they have curried enough favor from either the merchant clans or the Children of the Stone then have them shift their support to the PC's. This series of events is not meant to truly challenge the players as much as it is to keep them busy running around setting up trade routes and seeking ways to gain the merchants and priests favor while also running their kingdom and finishing their explorations of the areas of the map around Dammerhall. The HarrowHelms are not fools enough to disrupt the potential stability of Dammerhall over such a dispute even if the PC's are found to be more deserving of Lordship of Dammerhall than they are. But the PC's must learn that for themselves. Let them think the worst of their cousins, but in the end have the Harrowhelms bend the knee and acknowledge the PC's as Sovereigns. Then when the Drow finally get wind of the return of Dwarves to Dammerhall have the dark elves triple their military presence and patrols in the northern sunless sea. In my own campaign this occurred after a drow patrol encountered a large dwarven patrol on the north side of the sunless sea. Of course, at this point the HarrowHelms once again counsel their King to close the tunnels below (and if they do that is pretty much the end of the campaign) and retreat behind their hidden doors and collapsed tunnels to the safety of Dammerhall, but if they do so then their entire rest of their kingdom that they worked hard and bled much to build is forfeit. If they choose to keep the way open then they must prepare to deal with the hated Drow once and for all!


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Legendary Planet! (of course)

More AP Plug-Ins! (Mythic Righteous and Metal Gods, please)

Kickstart a hardback Pirate AP Plug-in compilation!


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Cold Mountain & Horns of the Hunted.

These two were written by Legendary Games specifically to expand Kingmaker and mesh with it flawlessly. My players and I loved them.


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Legendary Games has already said that they will soon be releasing AP Plug-Ins for Iron Gods.

If you have not tried their AP Plug-Ins then I would definitely give them a shot. I have run or played nearly all of them and not only do I enjoy them but my players absolutely love them as well.


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In my experience it depends on the table you are at and the story being told.

Example: If I run a campaign extremely heavy on intrigue and political maneuvering, then Power Attack becomes less useful than Skill Focus.

Example #2: If I run a campaign set in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover setting then all thrown weapons become superior to all missile weapons because mere ownership of a missile weapon carries a death penalty in every civilized region.


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I never said that they did not want to. I said that my players do not want to.

I said if it is not your cup of tea, then play the game on easy mode. You were the one harping on the "uselessness" of PC's with a ten point buy (and by extension, disparaging a playstyle that you obviously have next to no experience with). You read way more into my post than was actually there (as usual).

I have run games for PC's with 10 pt buy. You, obviously, have not. PC's with a 10 pt buy are neither "worthless" or "useless", as you said they were. They function just fine. I have hundreds of personal hours of active playtime experience running games for such characters. You, obviously, have little to none. Literally, I have run two entire campaigns with 5 PC's each. The first to 18th level and the second to 14th and those PC's handled themselves just fine. They were not "Scooby Dooish" (More disparaging of others playstyles, huh? That's called hypocrisy, by the way, when you accuse others of something and then do it yourself.)

I, straight up, told BBT to play the way he preferred. That is a far, far cry from accusing anyone of "badwrongfun". By all means play the way you prefer, but you might just consider whether you have any real experience on the topic at hand before you start calling things "worthless" and "useless" when what you actually mean is "not as powerful as I LIKE to play, but I have next to no experience at this power level so I really have no idea".


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

Do not look now, but no matter who you are, some random hobo somewhere is better at something than you are.


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Update #30, posted by Gary McBride the 25th of April this year stated that print copies would "probably begin shipping in early May".

Sorry, but at this point I'll not believe print copies are on the way until after they arrive at my home.

Fool me once....


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I recently added Part 4 of my own version of ToN to the Facebook page where I was detailing it before. Anyone who wants feel free to plunder ideas for your own campaign. There was a good bit more to my original, but this gets the gist of it across.

Part 4 Throne, Done Right:
Part 4 is all Dammerhall, every bit. It was written so that it could be run simultaneously with part 3. As the pc's kingdom expands into the sunless sea area the pc's will undoubtedly seek out Dammerhall. I allowed them to both adventure in the lost city and explore the sunless sea at the same time, once they had learned the lost cities location. The reason for all this is because the next module is built around the war between the pc's new kingdom and the drow capitol located on the northern sunless sea. Taking Dammerhall provides the pc's with several huge advantages not previously available in the campaign. First, it provides their kingdom access to surface trade goods. Second, it provides the pc's with a large boost of Dwarven, Gnomish and Halfling colonists, miners and tradesmen who resettle Dammerhall from the surface. Finally, it gives their kingdom a powerful redoubt on the northern side of the sunless sea enabling their fledgling nation of Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings to finally prepare to deal a deadly blow to their long time nemesis, the hated drow.
Now, the secret door that the pc's found used to lead to a caravan supply outpost in the Undermines of Dammerhall (the lowest level). That outpost is now stripped near-bare, but provides a relatively safe place to base their expeditions into the lost city from. The undermines are about two miles across and surround a central rift that leads upwards to the UnderHall (the next lowest level and the former city of the deep dwarves). Exploring the Undermines reveals many dwarven undead now guard their death chambers. Some of these undead burn with a black fire ( I often refer to this as blackfyre treat this as a negative energy aura that adds 1d10 negative energy damage that Death Ward only protects from half of to the undeads attacks, and deals 1d10 negative energy damage to anyone who attacks them with a melee weapon or other non-ranged attack that does not possess reach.) Once the undermines are cleared they are not yet safe for use until Dammerhall itself is tamed. The Undermines function as a kingdom mining resource (and more at GM discretion, which I encourage in this case). The central rift leading up to the Underhall of the Deep Clans is covered with long ledges and bridges leading upwards and upwards to the underhall high above. This rift is the home of a powerful haunt. When the blackfyre burned through the Kings Halls above and tore downwards through the central rift thousands fled across these bridges. In the chaos many were pushed to their deaths, while most were burned alive by the blackfyre. Any who fail the save against the haunt (it should be pretty high depending on PC level) get confused for a round (and possibly wander off the bridge while experiencing their brothers push them off in the ancient panicked rush here). Additionally several greater shadows that burn with blackfyre watch these bridges and, aware of the haunt, they attack parties they see with pc's in distress. The haunt can only be removed by casting a consecrate spell to settle the lost souls here followed by a DC 21 caster level check. This can be ascertained with a DC 26 Kno: Religion check. Amongst the bones on the bridges they discover an ancient priests body with a powerful +3 ring of protection and a +2 ghost touch adamantine dwarven axe.
Once they ascend the central rift to the UnderHall they find a vast vault of ten story towers connecting floor to ceiling as far as the eye can see surrounding the rift, which continues upwards in a tangled mass of ledges and bridges to both the KingsHalls and the GuildHalls above. The UnderHalls surrounding them are a tangled mass of tight streets between towers. Shrewd engineers will notice that every fifth tower is accessible only from above and their bridges only connect to each other. It is from these towers that the initial threats will come. It will start as stealthy attacks from dwarven ghoul rogues using arrow slits. It will escalate to masses of ghouls raining missile fire down from bridges until the PC's seek shelter or see (do not forget stonecunning) the secret doors at the bases of the secure towers (DC 28). If they assault a tower hurl a large group of dwarven advanced ghoul fighters 4th with shortbows and a small group of dwarven ghoul rogues 5th with shortbows. If they repulse this attack then another group of twice these numbers attacks in 12 hours. If they still hold the tower at that time, they gain unopposed access to the KigsHalls and GuildHalls via the ledges and bridges of the central rift. It should be obvious that there are still ghouls nearby. The PC's will have to defeat another two or three packs before the UnderHalls are safe. There is much and more treasure here. Most is small value art objects left behind by the ancient dwarves (several thousand gold pieces worth at least). The underhalls used to have many functional lifts to the GuildHalls and the TradeHalls near the surface but these do not function because the CityForge in the GuildHalls is dark and the master drive piston is disengaged. Once the haunt below is gone, the cityforge relit, the master drive re-engaged, the ghoul packs eradicated and the KingHalls cleared, then the lifts can be used to access the TradeHalls, the GuildHalls, the UnderMines (restoring them to operation), the KingHalls, The HighHall and the Towers District. (More on the TradeHall, HighHall & Towers District later)
Now, about the GuildHalls and the KingHalls, this is where the catastrophe that destroyed the city started all those years ago, but it is no longer the center of the dark powers infesting this city. Long ago the masters of the city sought to tame the power of an artifact called the Jewel of the Ebon Flame. They envisioned their powerful lifts and forges powered by the mystical jewel and coveted the power they would possess were it so...but when they awoke the mighty Jewel the primal negative energy creature within found itself, once again, strapped into the heart of a mighty machine to power it and, in a moment of anger, judged them unworthy sending blackfyre rushing through every part of the massive citymachine that it had been connected to. Many were slain outright, but some few became undead and some of them coursed still with the blackfyre. The undead created in this burst of pure negative fire hunted the remaining few living inhabitants to extinction. On that darkest of days there was, imprisoned in the kinghalls, an umbral dragon. It was caught up in this burst of Blackfyre from the Jewel and transformed into a negative energy charged creature. It considers that day its rebirth in service to the Jewel of the Flaming Darkness and renamed itself ColdWing to honor its new master. The Jewel grants ColdWing the spell like abilities of Dimension Door, Tongues, Arcane Sight & Globe of Invulnerability (lesser) 3x/Day each at Caster Level 20th as well as Globe of Invulnerability, Dispel Magic (Greater) & an Empowered Enervation 1x/Day each at Caster Level 20th. ColdWing is a CR 14 Adult Umbral Dragon (CR 16 with the powers from the Jewel). It does not actually possess the Jewel, it is in the Towers District. If ColdWing is slain, the Jewel will use its Wish power (Ix/week) on the next day to return the dragon to life. It will continue to do so until the PC's destroy the Jewel (which takes ColdWings help, it must first be hit with the umbral dragons negative energy breath and then targeted by the spell like ability Greater Dispel Magic that it grants to the dragon (a dirty trick maneuver) the jewel can then be destroyed by any +2 or better adamantine weapon and has a hardness of 15 and 60 hp, this can all be worked out by a DC 30+ Kno:Arcana/Religion or alternatively by examining the dragons corpse and possibly using Legend Lore on it) ColdWing stalks the Kinghall and Guildhall areas and all the residents of Dammerhall rightly fear it and avoid the dragon whenever possible.
The KingHall is vaulted chamber after vaulted chamber of vast galleries and columns surrounding the Kings Tower (now the Dragons lair).
The GuildHall sits opposite the Kinghall across the roof of the great rift and contains the cityforge, master drive and smithies and smelters as well as alchemical storehouses and shops including gemcutters all wrapped in ascending array of shops and storehouses lining the vaulted walls overlooking the cityforge and guildmarket. There is much, much and more treasure in this area of the city. In addition to the dragons considerable horde there are another 70,000 GP worth of valuable trade goods scattered about the GuildHalls (including mithral trade bars and raw alchemical goods but they weigh 500 lbs!) Use the dragon and more packs of ghouls in these areas to keep the party busy. The dragon thinks strategically, and only watches the party until they either approach the KingHalls intent upon entry or they relight the cityforge (in preparation to re-engage the master drive it assumes) in either case it attacks preferably on the bridges outside the KingHalls or atop the master drive piston adjacent to the tower controlling the cityforge. To re-engage the piston someone must go onto the roof and across a flimsy (Dragon bait) bridge to the top of the piston and manually release the break there (Two Full Round Actions, Two STR checks both DC 16+) after the forge is up to steam to re-engage the master drive and power all the cities lifts and trollies. This restores function to the UnderHall, but the dragon must be permanently defeated and the Jewel destroyed to allow resettlement (which opens three FREE city grids consumption free once the UnderHall, HighHall and Towers District are all clear too!!)
The HighHall is another vast 100 foot tall vault filled with ten story tall towers and bridges. Big difference here is that within every fifth tower there were, in antiquity, stationed two carytid columns shaped like dwarven warriors. A dozen of them still impotently patrol the Highhall against all intruders in groups of four. The sounds of combat will attract the others quickly. Once they are all dealt with if the PC's try to use any of the lifts, elevators or trollies to get to the Tradehall or Tower Districts they get attacked by a huge negative energy infusedblackfyre fire elemental! Every week they remain within DammerHall the Jewel will summon another of these and set it against them. These will pursue them throughout the ruins even back to their camp, but once they defeat the first blackfyre elemental they may proceed to either the TradeHall or Towers District. There is much treasure in the form of small value art objects scattered about the ruins of all these towers. They total to about 12,000 GP but weigh 100 lbs.
The TradeHall is another series of vaulted hall after vaulted hall and connects to the surface (but the bridges are destroyed). Along it length and up its walls are the shops and trade-family homes of the ancient dwarves of Dammerhall. This district is home to a large group of dwarven cairn wights led by a powerful and charismatic dual-blooded fire/undead bloodline ghoul sorcerer. One of the dwarven corpses here is a member of the royal guard whose corpse still bears Dwarven Full Plate +3 and beneath the body lies a rotting quiver containing x12 +2 Evil Outsider Bane Crossbow bolts and x3 crossbow bolts of lesser undead slaying.
Finally, perched atop the mountain fastness of Dammerhall is the Tower Districts five groups of three towers each all formerly interconnected with bridges. Now one of the triple towers is isolated from the others and still burns with blackfyre! It is in this set of towers that the Jewel rests, placed here by ColdWing and guarded by its summoned army of life-stalkers (negative energy infused advanced invisible stalkers). This is where they must lure the dragon, ColdWing and trick him into helping them destroy the Jewel. That takes care of most of the adventure end of Dammerhall.
The kingdom building end follows. Dammerhall attracts a population of 29,000 pretty quickly and they get to detail x3 cost free city grids in addition the dammerhall city districts also receives these structures and upgrades for free. Sewer System, Paved Streets, Magic Streetlamps, Everflowing Fountain plus whatever else the GM approves. The Kingdom gets a new mine and a new quarry each worth x4 times the normal production per turn. As mentioned before Dammerhall operates consumption-free due to its surface trade connections. That wraps most of it except for the politics end of things. I will add that a little later. Enjoy and Happy Gaming!


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Rynjin wrote:
Breaking little things to fix nothing is still a net loss.

If the FAQ was to "fix nothing", then why did everyone tap on that FAQ button like a well conditioned hamster after a food pellet?

I will say it again.

Be Careful What You Wish For


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I wish all of you who are having problems with monks the best of luck sorting that out in your games.

This is a non-issue both at the table where I play and at the table where I GM.

Monks perform, play and prosper at both these tables just fine.


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Skillmonkey is definitely a primary niche in 3.X/PF

Many of the encounters that reward experience in AP's can be resolved with skill rolls (like Diplomacy or Intimidate) instead of combat.

So...just as many experience points for zero expenditure of resources means that those encounters are better solved through skill use than brute force. Especially at low level.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Weslocke wrote:
My players are tossing around concepts for an all Android party.

Rockman (Gunslinger)

Elecman (Air bloodline sorcerer)
Fireman (Flame Oracle)
Iceman (Winter Witch)
Gutsman (Barbarian)
Cutman (Slayer)
Bombman (Alchemist)

Their concept for the party is a group of SilverMount Androids who have been running from the Technic League since day one and have formed a "gang" for self-protection purposes.

They have tossed around ideas for two of the PC's (a slayer and an investigator) who have the skills to pass as human most of the time and who usually are the "go to town" guys.

The other two pc's classes have yet to be determined but current leanings are towards a Druid and a nanite-blooded Sorcerer.

I think they want to see if it is within the scope of the AP's story to redeem the android race in the eyes of their Numerian neighbors so that their kind are no longer viewed as second-class citizens (or first-class slaves!). It sounded like a fun idea to me so I told them to run with it.


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Just like every other Pathfinder book, Mythic Adventures is a toolbox.

What it is not is a brick which must be taken whole-or-not-at-all.

Far, far too many GM's here are acting as if you must allow every option in every book. This is a total and complete fallacy.

You know you group.

Paizo does not.

One of your jobs as a GM is to spot "options" which your players might use and cause in-game, numeric or mechanical trouble later and to deny or fix those options if you see trouble coming. Once again, only you can do this. Paizo cannot, because they do not know your group.

All you have to do is step up and act like a GameMaster and pick and choose a little instead of auto-greenlighting every single option simply because "Paizo wrote it".

So...learn to say no. It is an important part of your job.


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Manuelexar wrote:
Do you think this can be integrated in a S&S campaign?

I integrated this into the Pirate AP in the middle of Raiders of the Fever Sea. It works wonderfully.

In fact, I have had positive experiences with every Legendary Games AP plug-in that I have run or played. Those include: Horns of the Hunted, Tarin's Crown, The Baleful Coven, Road to Destiny, Cold Mountain and Under Frozen Stars.


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It is my pleasure, Jason. The excellent work and high level of quality present in every aspect of Legendary Games products really makes me want to see you all succeed in the fashion that you truly deserve. Your company truly elevates the quality of play in the AP's and Mythic games by a significant amount.

My Kingmaker campaign has strongly benefitted from Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle, Horns of the Hunted & The Coldwood Codex as well as from the occasional use of a Mythic Monster or three from your Mythic Monster PDF's. My players have just started War of the River Kings by the way.

Additionally, I am the player of a Vudrani Monk in a Jade Regent campaign that has made use of The Baleful Coven. We are currently playing The Hungry Storm and are in the midst of attempting to clear the StormTower and (provided we survive) as I understand it we will soon be starting Under Frozen Stars.

So, as you can see, in the group that I game with regularly Legendary Games has become just as integral a part of our communal fun as Paizo has. Your company has truly made these games Legendary for us and we appreciate it.


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I would not know what my breaking point would be.

I have never walked out on a game or on a GM.

I figure if you embrace the story that you are given and adapt your character concept to the story rather than attempting to force a GM to adapt his story to your character then you cannot go wrong. So far this seems to have worked perfectly for more than three decades.


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Werebat wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:


Archers can deal similar levels of DPR from 5 times the range with a far cheaper baseline weapon, far cheaper ammunition and no misfire chance. bows also benefit from a great amount of exclusive magic item and feat synergies, don't require as much feat investment to pull off, and area martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon.

Gunslingers aren't any more broken than archers, in fact, archers are more overpowered.

EXACTLY! Now THAT is some "common sense"!!!

What I'm hearing is a lot of whiner DMs who aren't creative enough to challenge a base class like the gunslinger. Half of them are coming out and ADMITTING that I am right because the rules DO NOT state the need for a free hand when clearing a gun!

As for how I am reloading, it is with the Reloading Hands spell. Get this -- the DM gave us each a special ability (SLA) that could be any 1st or 2nd level spell, 3 times per day. Pretty sweet! He was being less of a lamer that day.

Anyway now I have the proof that even his fellow negative Nancies are admitting that nowhere in the ACTUAL RULES does it state that I need a free hand to clear a weapon. Thanks!

The rules also do not state that a dead character cannot take actions.

They do not state that a toothless tiger does less bite damage than a normal one.

They do not state that a Roc with clipped wings cannot fly.

They do not state that declawed dragons do less damage on a claw attack.

They do not state that you can clear a weapon with only your gunslingers mind powers either.

Just because the rules do not say it does not mean that your DM was incorrect in making you use a free hand.


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Name: Valten Garess, High Chancellor of Narnia
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Rogue 11th/Cavelier 1st
Adventure: War of the River Kings
Location: The Silent Cistern

Name: Jillian Garnelgold, Grand Diplomat of Narnia
Race: Halfling
Classes/levels: Paladin 12th
Adventure: War of the River Kings
Location: The Silent Cistern

Name: Garain the Seer, Magister of Narnia
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Wizard 12th
Adventure: War of the River Kings
Location: The Silent Cistern

Name: Mikaila Dunrova, Warden of Narnia
Race: Half-Elf
Classes/levels: Ranger 12th
Adventure: War of the River Kings
Location: The Silent Cistern

Name: Andragor Leavy, High Priest of Narnia
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Cleric of Erastil 12th
Adventure: War of the River Kings
Location: The Silent Cistern

Gory Details: Well, my players simply fell apart under the Gardeners onslaught. Andragor was panicked and quickly captured by the Gardeners black tentacles spell. Makaila was grievously wounded by the scorching the will-o-wisps put on her. Valten broke free of the black tentacles only to succumb to the will-o-wisps unrelenting surges of punishing electricity. Jillian, upon freeing herself from the black tentacles, unwisely charged the Gardener ignoring the wisps and, already burned by their blasts, collapsed as soon as the Gardener touched her. With only Andragor left relatively unhurt, the Gardener turned his attention on him and touched the priest, destroying his mortal coil and sending him to his god. Mikaila tried to flee, but to no avail. The Gardener caught her in short order and she too fell to the ghosts wicked caresses.

Not quite a TPK. One of my players was not present this session. Long live Brynndolf Arnandyr, High Chancellor of Narnia!


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The Rogue functions just fine at my table.

I have two players who consider it their favorite class. Even over the bard, alchemist, ranger, and both versions of the investigator and slayer.

I make no special considerations for their characters and they play and flourish perfectly well.

I wish all of you having this problem the best of luck sorting it, but it does not exist at my table.


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My players and I approve of pretty much everything altered in the revision. Kudos to the design team on their work on the Swashbuckler.


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To answer your question, TOZ, Nightmare Keep was a 2Ed module for four to six 22nd+ level characters. It had a great plot and it was the most fiendish deathtrap that I have ever run. I ran it three times and not one party got past the 70% completed mark. It ate them all for breakfast. The real kicker is that I hate these types of modules. I used it for one reason only and that was to answer the challenge of several different players that, "No published adventure could ever stop my (insert name, class and level of outrageously equipped monty haul character from another GM's game here)".

It had collapsing ceiling traps inside crawlways that buried PC's in the narrow crawlways and released gray oozes atop the piles of rubble pinning the PC's down. Of course the oozes would just ooze through the collapsed rubble and attack the pinned PC's. Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that there were custom 9th level darkness and silence spells in the crawlways placed by a 26th level caster didn't I? The poor players could not see what was eating them, could not move and could not call for help.

It had vast caverns composed of green glass, littered with glass stalactites and stalagmites in tight formations and broken shards of grain-sized to pinky-sized glass shards piled into drifts all through those caverns. Leather, cloth and paper items did not stand a chance once the various traps and air elementals in those areas were activated or let loose. For that matter just moving through these areas frequently destroyed cloaks, boots, & gloves.

It had puzzles that would make a player pull their hair out. The worst of which was a series of keys necessary to progress from one area to another the last of which was a golden key. The looks on the players faces when I described the 80' long, 20' wide, 4' deep stone trench filled with tens of thousands of glowing golden keys was absolutely priceless. Only one party that I ran through it made it that far, and right there is where they called it quits and said, "Please, Dave, can we just pretend we never played this?".

In short, it was a players nightmare (hence the name) that made the Tomb of Horrors look like a pre-school pizza party. I hated Tomb of Horrors. I hated Nightmare Keep. But not as much as the author and I hated monty haul style 20th+ level characters. He wrote that module to grind PC's down and kill them. Excruciatingly slowly so that they had time to savor the loss of each piece of their precious gear before they finally met their end at the hands of one of the keeps denizens. That is why I only ran it when a player would get too big for their britches and say, "No published adventure can stop me.", usually in response to me suggesting we try a published module for a change. They were all wrong, and most of them were dead wrong.


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Imma gonna say it again. Be careful what you wish for. A lot of people (people who should know better, at that) are asking the developers to "nerf" the swashbuckler without even realizing what they are asking for. Enough, apparently, that the developers are now "investigating ways" to possibly give them their wish.

Everything else appears to be moving in the right directions with the playtest though. IMHO. The developers, as usual, are demonstrating an enormous amount of patience and an extremely discerning eye towards playtest suggestions.

I pretty much missed out on the first week of playtest due to hectic holiday preparations. I will be contributing my thoughts next week on the class discussion threads though.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone! (And for those of you in other countries have a Happy Thursday, except, of course, for those of you whom our Thursday is actually your Friday, and to you I say, Have a Happy Friday!?!)


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Try dropping a few levels of rogue on an advanced will-o-wisp.

Good times. :)


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I picked up a copy of this one from the Legendary Games site when it released a few nights ago. This adventure should serve well to make the trip into the demon lands a much more memorable experience. The Equinox Crown is sure to be a big hit with players of this AP.

As usual the Legendary Design Team has done a brilliant job at expanding an AP. I am really looking forward to running this in the future. Outstanding work!


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I, personally, do not feel that the Rogue class has been invalidated. I cannot even understand why many seem to think so.

Not everyone wants to play a spellcasting "face" bard or an alchemy addicted "Holmes" knock-off or an exotic elite "assassin". The every-man theme of the common rogue has a powerful appeal to many players.

I cannot be the only Pathfinder GM who is constantly approached by his players with new Rogue PC ideas. I get at least one pitch for a Rogue PC at the start of each new campaign.

Comparatively, not one single player has ever asked to play a ninja. I have had zero requests to play an archetype that replaces another class's abilities with trapfinding. No Vivisectionists, No Archivists, No trapfinding Rangers. I have made sure that they are aware that they have a plethora of other options. When my players decide that they want to play a Rogue, they apparently want to play a Rogue.


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*Enters room*

*Weaves his way through the crowd and crosses the room while humming the theme to "The Incredible Mr. Limpet"*

*Exits room*


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Sure Orthos. I tossed them together quickly when I wrote them up so they are probably rife with mistakes, but these stats have served to vex and challenge my paladin PC. Especially they first two or three fights with them.

Black Eyed Children (CR 10)

Type: NE Small Outsider
Init: +9 (+5 Dex, +4 Feat)
Senses: Darkvision 120', Low Light Vision
Perception +13

AC 24 (+1 Sz,+5 Dx,+1 Dodge, +7 Natural)
HP 65 (10d10+10) (Fast Healing 10/Holy Water, Divine Damage)
Fort: +10 Ref: +18 Will: +13
Immune: Wisdom Drain/Damage, Confusion effects, Poison
Vulnerabilities: Holy Water(does 1d6+3/vial)
Resist: Acid 10, Cold 10, Electricity 10
SR: 21

Speed: 30'
Melee: x2 Claws +18 (1d4+1+1d4 Bleed)
Space: 5' Reach: 5'
Special Attacks: Bleed (1d4), Befuddling Gaze (see below)

Spell Like Abilities: (Caster Level 10th-Concentration:+14)
At Will-Detect Good, Detect Magic, Message, Read Magic, Acid Splash, Greater Teleport (Self + 50 lbs. only)
3x/Day-Suggestion, Charm Person, Dispel Magic, Protection from Good, Minor Image (often used to disguise summoned Hounds of Tindalos)
1x/Day-Modify Memory, Unholy Blight

Str: 8 Dex: 20 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 14
Base Atk: +10 CMB: +8 CMD: 24
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Combat Casting, Ability Focus(Befuddling Gaze)
Skills: Bluff+15, Kno(Planes)+15, Spellcraft+15, Kno(Arcana)+15, Use Magic Device+15, Perception+13, Acrobatics +18, Stealth+22, Intimidate+2
Languages: Aklo, Abyssal, Common, Infernal
SQ: Alien, Embryonic Spawn, Invitation, Odd Presence, Magic Claws

Alien(Ex): All Black Eyed Children take a -4 circumstance penalty to all Charisma based skill checks

Befuddling Gaze(Su): As a free action once per round a Black Eyed Child can utilize their alien telepathy in a maddening and will sapping attack against any creature with a mortal soul. The target must make a Will save (DC 19) or take 1d4 Wisdom damage and become staggered for one round. Making the save allows the victim to bypass the Wisdom damage but they still gain the staggered condition for one round. Additionally any who pass the save become immune to that childs Befuddling Gaze for 24 hours.

Embryonic Spawn(Su): Anyone whose Wisdom is reduced to zero or that is slain by a Dark Eyed Child are taken by any surviving children to be made into Black Eyed Children themselves in a profane ritual taking 2d4+2 days time. Once 18 black eyed children have been created total (including the original host) a similar ritual taking 1d4+1 hours can be performed by the children. At its conclusion their heads burst open and many, many shoggoth fragments spill out and forming a young shoggoth (Bestiary Pg 249, Pg 295)

Fast Healing(Su): Black Eyed Children heal at a near unbelievable rate. Spells or weapons which do divine damage (Such as the bonus +2d6 from a Holy weapon) deal damage which the creatures cannot so easily heal. Additionally they are vulnerable to holy water and this type of damage is not easily healed either.

Invitation(Su): The antithetical nature of a Black Eyed Childs existence manifests as a Magical Circle Against Evil which takes form around the entire outside of any occupied residence or vehicle that they approach. They can bypass this Circle only by receiving an invitation by the occupants to enter. Most Black Eyed Children utilize persuasion or trickery to gain this invitation, but they are not above using threats, displays of power or the torment and torture of loved ones and pets to gain it.

Magic Claws(Su) Their claws function in all respects as +2 magic weapons

Odd Presence(Ex): A Black Eyed Childs odd mannerisms, body language and actions add a +4 Circumstance bonus to Intimidate skill checks

Summoning(Su): Two or more Black Eyed Children are capable of focusing their will to summon a Hound Of Tindalos (Bestiary 2, Pg 158) to do their bidding one time per day for one minute. This summoning takes both children a standard action to accomplish.

Telepathy(Su): Black Eyed Children can communicate to each other telepathically at will as long as they are within sight of one another. This telepathy cannot be used to communicate with non-children. For that they must use language.

Black Eyed Children are the result of crazed or maddened cultists who make deals with insane alien entities of the realms of nightmares. In exchange for promises of immortality and power they give their bodies, minds and souls to these alien creatures only to become not just possessed by them, but actually impregnated by their embryonic presences.
The cultists body serves as incubator for the first of a potential plague of Black Eyed children which the parent nightmare beast uses to build a bridgehead of souls so that it may birth a fragment of itself into the prime plane to wreak destruction, death and unending, maddening despair.
Black Eyed Children appear as children of any humanoid race of adolescent age but all have dark, black eyes lacking pupils. Their mannerisms are odd and come across as strange or alien and they often lack knowledge of simple ordinary subjects related to everyday mortal life.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Oh, and Candlemere is the home of the Candlemere Academy for Magically Gifted Youngsters.

I tried to warn them against building a magical academy atop an unstable Elfgate that had already drawn the attention of Yog-Sothoth AND the Fellnight Queen but NOOOOOO, who would listen to me. I'm just every NPC ever >:-D

Too funny. My players did almost the same thing. They decided that Candlemere should be renamed Candlekeep and become a center of learning. They then proceeded to build a Historical University, a Magical Academy, a Bardic College, an Observatory and a Military Academy there. Even though I allowed them the opportunity to close the Elf-Gate I wrote up some custom monsters based off the Black-Eyed Children urban myth and have been using them as embryonic shoggoth hosts to occasionally threaten the settlement. Man, this has really kept our resident Paladin on her toes.


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Oops. Sorry all. Thought I would give it a shot. :)

This adventure does look exceptionally intriguing. I remember thinking, when first reading the second and third modules that there was a lot of room for expansion amongst all those diverse encounter areas. At the time I had no idea that the very same authors who wrote those modules intended to do exactly that personally. I am really looking forward to this expansion. I am anticipating it taking the plot beyond "Mythic" to "Legendary".


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I suggested the default name of "Narland".

My players liked the "Nar" portion.

So they named their new CG aligned kingdom "Narnia".

Then they made everyone a King/Queen and proceeded to try their best to build C.S. Lewis's Narnia all the way down to an Army of rangers with animal companions and a band of Centaur mercenaries who serve the collected Crowns.


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Loved the vid, Ciretose.

I should have mentioned, naturally, If a GM tears up a bunch of gear then he should give the players a chance to gain WBL in order to go about replacing it.

But...that WBL definitely need not be in a form particularly useful to them at the moment. They may have to return to the civilized lands, barter for special materials and even undertake quests for rare magical components in some cases before they are able to replace/reforge their lost and sundered "precious".

As I said before, back-ups are not just a good idea, they are the unwritten law of the wild. In the annals of American history the legendary Mountain Men often carried two or three of everything that they could not make themselves. Adventurers would be wise to take note of their example.


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Anyone here ever play Nightmare Keep?

I have seen a party remove everything they were carrying and put it in a pile and redistribute gear because half of them had armor and no weapons and the other half had weapons and no armor.

That module destroyed gear so quickly and thoroughly that they had to repeat this process a total of 3 times.

That is a dick move. Breaking one piece of gear is not.

If a PC over-specializes and/or decides not to purchase any back-up weaponry or equipment that is their failure and absolute lack of vision and foresight...not the GM's. The life of an adventurer is hard and requires planning. That planning includes what to do when stuff gets broken...at least it better. Otherwise you just built an Achilles heel into your build and an intelligent well prepared and informed enemy will find it and exploit it eventually.

"Optimized" characters that do not carry back-ups are not optimal. They are a liability to the sensible members of the party who do think to do such things.


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Sorry, but the "reasonable" number is going to vary from game to game. Play style to play style. Group to group.

Letting the GM determine that number is the best solution, IMHO.


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BigDTBone wrote:
Weslocke wrote:

this FAQ has empowered GM's to shut down any argumentative, rules-savvy player bent on exploiting free actions in his tracks.

In my humble opinion, that is what all this uproar is really about.

Your opinion is wrong. And frankly, your opinion is what is what caused the flame war last weekend. People with your holier than thou attitude "came to the defense" of the almighty paizo staff and started throwing around ridiculous off-the-cuff insults like this one. Insults that attacked the motives of people you have never met. Ever.

You have NO IDEA what anyone's motives are, but you come in here like Santa Claus the Firefighter, ready to judge good and bad and save the world. Stop it. Just stop it. You are being a jerk. And the tone of every one of your posts wreaks of it.

Just for your own knowledge, I only DM games. I don't have a single gun-user in my games. But I do have new players who I encourage to seek out answers on their own. And as it stands, if they were to find this FAQ, they would believe that their archery builds that use 4 free actions drawing arrows at level 6 to manyshot, rapidshot, and iterative are cheese. Because nothing the development team says in that FAQ would give them ANY BLOODY INDICATION that they HAVEN'T crossed the line.

Sometimes the hardest part about getting people into our community to is the "badwrongfun" barrier. People are worried they are doing it wrong. Being told by a developer that your build is cheese [and don't try to skirt this, the way the FAQ is currently written, THE DEVELOPERS ARE CALLING MORE THAN 3 OF THE SAME FREE ACTION CHEESE-ABUSE] even if it is still legal doesn't exactly inspire people to keep playing, or invite others to play.

This doesn't even get in to the discussion about how discouraging people from talking at the table (a SOCIAL gathering) effects people wanting to return. That part is beyond asinine.

So the next time you decide that you want to assume you know what is motivating people,...

I caused the flame war? Wars are conducted by many people. I am but one. Additionally, I was only here posting for an hour or two. That war lasted all weekend, right?

I think that you fail to understand causality and responsibility in a major way. I cannot be responsible for events that I did not coordinate, participate in or witness. Additionally, I did not post the query about the FAQ. I just copied and pasted it to the thread asking about it and notified a few posters that I knew would be interested as they were talking about a free-action-intense subject in another thread. When everyone started over-reacting (like they still are!) I tried to calm people down by pointing out that this FAQ is just a Guideline (you know, like EVERY OTHER RULE IN THE BOOKS).I was off the boards for more than an hour before SKR ever posted the fist "removed some posts" post. That is far from starting a flame war and accusing me of being responsible for it is not only disingenuous, but an outright manufactured falsehood stated by someone too busy posting to bother to check their facts.

Maybe you should explain the FAQ to your new players. I did to mine. That is one of the most important aspects of being a GM, teaching the game to others. The late Gary Gygax thought it the most important aspect. New gamers are not birds to be pushed out of nests to fly or fail on their own system knowledge.

My opinion is just as valid as yours. Period. No more. No less. I will tolerate yours if you will tolerate mine. Your opinion is that I am "Santa Claus the Firefighter (Name calling? Wow, just...wow.). My opinion is that you are deliberately overreacting about the FAQ and that is all. Now, which one of us is violating the "most important rule of the message boards" again?

Show me where it says, in a post from a developer, that any build that uses 3 or more repetitive free actions is abuse. You cannot . Because there is not one. There has never been one

Have a wonderful day,
Weslocke of Phaz-Daliom


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Now, as much as I would just love to stay and debate this. My Kingmaker campaign will be starting in about 45 minutes and I need to go set up to, you know, actually play the game.

Do not abuse free actions and there is no need to worry about your GM capping them.

Have a great day,
Weslocke

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