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Seems pretty optimized to me.
Honestly, with Dex 18, almosty any Operative build is close to optimized for combat. And, RAW, Ghost is indeed the best Specialization by quite a bit.
Going Priest for Mysticism isn't a bad idea at all, in addition to allowing disarming mystical traps, it's now one of the only two knowledge skills in the game for creature identification (okay, and an occasional Engineering roll for robots), which is (as always) actually super important and good for multiple people to have ranks in.
Feat-wise, Great Fortitude is an excellent choice to shore up your +0 Fort Save, though less necessary on Android than most other races. I'd probably still pick it over Weapon Focus, given that with Trick Attack your accuracy is already quite good.
Optimizing operative. Appropriate race, Max dex, bunch of skills, good specialization.
Yeah, there isn't a lot to say about most of it, the optimized operative (unfortunately) rather writes itself.
Though with trick attack, I'd take the laser to be honest. That huge range difference actually matters, and you'll likely do more damage with trick attack (2d4) rather than chance the double -4s.
Only quibble is weapon focus. It matters 5% of the time- if the dice roll is low enough to matter, it won't help. There has to be a feat that does more for you than that.
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Don't know how high level you're expecting to hit, but I noticed an easily missed change in the rules that made me think about abilities.
At level 5, 10, 15 and 20 you get an ability increase. And if your score is at or above 17, it's a +1, just like Pathfinder.
But if your score is 16 or lower, that increase is +2.
(Page 26 of the core rules).
Putting your Dex at 16 at creation will get you more points, at the cost of being a little weaker until level 5 and not hitting that Dex 20 ability score at level 10.
Something to consider if you want to spread your abilities a bit (and it really helps MAD characters).
If you're okay with a little less strength, a Damaya Lashunta could be a good optimized pick as well. No Dexterity bonus, but Intelligence and Charisma are good for a whole load of different skills, their Student Racial trait lets you boost two different skills of your choice in a way that stacks with everything else, and telepathy is a great tool for communicating with your teammates without speaking. Ambush coordination sounds like a good benefit for an operative to have.
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A 16 leaves you weaker at 1-4, stronger at 5-9, then weaker from 10-14, stronger from 15 to 19, weaker at 20. But in terms of being 'stronger' it gives some bonuses to secondary stats...which those vary in usefulness from class to class quite a bit.
A starting 16 in your attack stat is definitely a solid call on a MAD class like Solarian, but Operative is probably the most SAD class in Starfinder (it uses Dex for almost literally everything). Having Dex less than the maximum you can take is just a bad idea unless you expect more than half the game to be between levels 5 and 9 or something like that.
Putting aside the fact that an Operative will be good at acrobatics there is a level 2 exploit called uncanny mobility that pretty much lets you ignore op attacks unless multiple enemies are threatening you.
Expect the +4 to stealth from the ghost to be removed at some point.
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I assumed you picked android because you like the theme, or the spacewalk option both of which are perfectly good reasons to go that direction.
Drop strength to 11 and raise Int to 16 because your skills really are the point of the class.
If you want a purely optimized character you want halfling for the stealth skill perks.
The laser pistol's range is indeed better, and the silent fighting style, as well as easier ammo recovery.
The theoretical loss of 1 point of average damage is laregely menaingless when compared to the damage from trick attack for both the laser and your knife.
I like Themeless for operative because it allows you to have just about every skill in the game as a class skill because they start with most anyways.
Start 10str 16dex 12con 16int 12wis 10cha
You need wis for saves or/and you have to invest feats. The melee str damage is a miniscule bonus. Starting at 18 or 14 and increasing every time waste resources. All characters are mad because of saving throws. You don't want to dump cha because you will be good at cha skills too. You have nearly every skill in the game.
"Auto bluff when balancing, climbing, flying, or swimming."
Minor note but but the target also has to be doing one of those. So no flying above ground enemies and auto-bluffing.
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Expect the +4 to stealth from the ghost to be removed at some point.
Not sure why everybody expects this (yeah, I know the +4 wasn't there at some point in the rules development. That just means that they consciously chose to add it). All the specialties get pretty much a maxed out skill as their startle skill, I don't see why stealth is so much better. The skills match pretty well to the theme of the specialty so I'd expect pretty much everybody to have their skill maxed out, including a +2 racial bonus if they want it enough.
The ghost is very good at what he does, but so are the rest. That is the POINT of taking an operative.
Expect the +4 to stealth from the ghost to be removed at some point.
Not sure why everybody expects this (yeah, I know the +4 wasn't there at some point in the rules development. That just means that they consciously chose to add it). All the specialties get pretty much a maxed out skill as their startle skill, I don't see why stealth is so much better. The skills match pretty well to the theme of the specialty so I'd expect pretty much everybody to have their skill maxed out, including a +2 racial bonus if they want it enough.
The ghost is very good at what he does, but so are the rest. That is the POINT of taking an operative.
The Ghost is the only one who gets +4 to a dex skill. It's the sole exception to the pattern that non-dex skills get the bonus, the others don't.
A possible consideration in your choice. There is a chain of exploits related to vision. At 2nd level Nightvision grants both low-light vision and darkvision. Enhanced Senses gives you blindsense 60 feet if you have low-light vision and darkvision. And that can become blindsight 60ft at 14th level. So android would let you skip the first step in that chain effectively granting you an extra exploit.
Wide Spectrum Ocular Implants or Retinal Reflectors would give the Ysoki the needed low-light vision. The Halfling would need advanced Darkvision Capacitors to skip that first exploit.
The Ghost is the only one who gets +4 to a dex skill. It's the sole exception to the pattern that non-dex skills get the bonus, the others don't.Expect the +4 to stealth from the ghost to be removed at some point.
Not sure why everybody expects this (yeah, I know the +4 wasn't there at some point in the rules development. That just means that they consciously chose to add it). All the specialties get pretty much a maxed out skill as their startle skill, I don't see why stealth is so much better. The skills match pretty well to the theme of the specialty so I'd expect pretty much everybody to have their skill maxed out, including a +2 racial bonus if they want it enough.
The ghost is very good at what he does, but so are the rest. That is the POINT of taking an operative.
Also I believe the developer has chimed in on this; the ghost isn't supposed to get the +4. Expect it to be errata'd (and in this case it really is proper errata, rather than the more common bait-and-switch changes).
The wisdom of that is up in the air, though; you're just not going to be so pinpoint focused on one stat that your dex will end up 8 points clear of your next highest stat, especially if you build towards your specialty, so the dex-based specialisations are going to end up worse at their trick attack than the others. I'm not convinced that's a good design decision, but then, the same goes for a lot of the starfinder design decisions.
You say that. But Operatives can easily be combat kings while also being great and most out of combat skills. An Android Hacker Operative with 18 Dex 16 Int will be one of the party's top damage dealers, Probably the best at pilot, gunner, science officer, mechanic, and if you take the scholar theme and Alien Archive exploit they will probably ID monsters better then any other party member as well.
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Also I believe the developer has chimed in on this; the ghost isn't supposed to get the +4. Expect it to be errata'd (and in this case it really is proper errata, rather than the more common bait-and-switch changes).
It was actually Mark Seifter that said it, and he has no official role in Starfinder at this point, so it's as little less official than this.
He did do the original Class Design though, so it's still pretty likely.
The wisdom of that is up in the air, though; you're just not going to be so pinpoint focused on one stat that your dex will end up 8 points clear of your next highest stat, especially if you build towards your specialty, so the dex-based specialisations are going to end up worse at their trick attack than the others. I'm not convinced that's a good design decision, but then, the same goes for a lot of the starfinder design decisions.
Eh. Assuming Dex 18 to start with and all the improvements you can wind up with a 28. Your second highest stat will be 24 at most. That's a +2 comparatively on Trick Attack, but it's a fairly superfluous +2, and requires not taking your +4 upgrade in, say, Str for extra damage or Con for extra survivability. It's not that big a deal, IMO.
Deadmanwalking did some theory crafting and it looks like Operative would be number 3 behind Solarian and Soldier (in melee). Not sure how ranged would stack up other than all damage would be lower due to no Str bonus to attacks.
This isn't completely true. My theorycrafting left off the bonuses various Classes other than Operative, Soldier, and Solarian get (Exocortex, Get Em, Spells, etc.)
The damage isn't gonna go much higher than is listed there except with an Unwieldy weapon or spells that require setup...but to-hit can go up quite a lot (+4 or so for an Exocortex Mechanic).
A possible consideration in your choice. There is a chain of exploits related to vision. At 2nd level Nightvision grants both low-light vision and darkvision. Enhanced Senses gives you blindsense 60 feet if you have low-light vision and darkvision. And that can become blindsight 60ft at 14th level. So android would let you skip the first step in that chain effectively granting you an extra exploit.
Wide Spectrum Ocular Implants or Retinal Reflectors would give the Ysoki the needed low-light vision. The Halfling would need advanced Darkvision Capacitors to skip that first exploit.
Huh, so you can use augments to meet prereqs like that? What if you swap augments later?
A possible consideration in your choice. There is a chain of exploits related to vision. At 2nd level Nightvision grants both low-light vision and darkvision. Enhanced Senses gives you blindsense 60 feet if you have low-light vision and darkvision. And that can become blindsight 60ft at 14th level. So android would let you skip the first step in that chain effectively granting you an extra exploit.
Wide Spectrum Ocular Implants or Retinal Reflectors would give the Ysoki the needed low-light vision. The Halfling would need advanced Darkvision Capacitors to skip that first exploit.
I think you need both darkvision and lowlight to skip the exploit. Android grants only DV.
I'm really curious if I messed up any math or missed any bonuses. In any case it looks like Operative gets out damaged by the two full base attack bonus classes due to the worse weapons and half level specialization bonus to damage. If they had full weapon specialization damage they would average 210 which is still below the other two. Wonder if that will ever be revisited. If these numbers are right we can safely dump STR on the Operative which will increase either Con for Fort save or Cha for skills.
Your math is pretty much correct. Several of us have done it and come to the same conclution.
I think you need both darkvision and lowlight to skip the exploit. Android grants only DV.A possible consideration in your choice. There is a chain of exploits related to vision. At 2nd level Nightvision grants both low-light vision and darkvision. Enhanced Senses gives you blindsense 60 feet if you have low-light vision and darkvision. And that can become blindsight 60ft at 14th level. So android would let you skip the first step in that chain effectively granting you an extra exploit.
Wide Spectrum Ocular Implants or Retinal Reflectors would give the Ysoki the needed low-light vision. The Halfling would need advanced Darkvision Capacitors to skip that first exploit.
Negative, Androids get both.
Negative, Androids get both.I think you need both darkvision and lowlight to skip the exploit. Android grants only DV.A possible consideration in your choice. There is a chain of exploits related to vision. At 2nd level Nightvision grants both low-light vision and darkvision. Enhanced Senses gives you blindsense 60 feet if you have low-light vision and darkvision. And that can become blindsight 60ft at 14th level. So android would let you skip the first step in that chain effectively granting you an extra exploit.
Wide Spectrum Ocular Implants or Retinal Reflectors would give the Ysoki the needed low-light vision. The Halfling would need advanced Darkvision Capacitors to skip that first exploit.
My bad, you are right. Androids are really optimised for Operators
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Also I believe the developer has chimed in on this; the ghost isn't supposed to get the +4. Expect it to be errata'd (and in this case it really is proper errata, rather than the more common bait-and-switch changes).
The wisdom of that is up in the air, though; you're just not going to be so pinpoint focused on one stat that your dex will end up 8 points clear of your next highest stat, especially if you build towards your specialty, so the dex-based specialisations are going to end up worse at their trick attack than the others. I'm not convinced that's a good design decision, but then, the same goes for a lot of the starfinder design decisions.
The developer pointed out that, at one point in the history of the class, it didn't have the +4. As I said above, this was changed. One guesses deliberately.
I'd expect combat/stealth focused operatives to have very good dex. But I'd expect hacker based operatives to have good dex but very good intelligence. I'd expect daredevils to be very good at acrobatics (another dex skll, by the way, so that argument just went away). Etc.
At most, a stealth based operative may have a +1 or +2 advantage (+1 at start, +2 when you get your first purchased stat boost at which time it really doesn't matter much since EVERYBODY is succeeding on a 1 :-)). The levelling up stat boosts DECREASE the gap (the 14 or 16 that I expect EVERY operative to have in dex increases by 2, the 18 that the ghost MAY have only increases by 1).
Don't get me wrong, the ghost is wonderful. But it is more that Cloaking Field rocks than that its such an advantage to startle with Stealth.
Edit: I just noticed (from another thread) that the other 2 specialties that base off a Dex skill do NOT give the +4 bonus. That very considerably changed things. At this point, I agree that EITHER
ghost should lose its +4 or the others should gain it. I still think that the former is preferable but it really isn't a huge thing (my ghost operative has a +13 at level 1, after all :-))
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Having looked at the probabilities at 13th level, counting the penalty to hit o full attack, Trick Attack and full attack do the same damage, or very close, and that's not counting the debuff.
Examining attacking AC 35 (the AC of the Goblin Monark) at level 20, A maxed Operative will have an effective +28 to hit with Trick Attack. That averages 65.625 damage or so. Their attack with a full attack is +22, average damage is 76.5 or so.
That's slightly more damage on the full attack, however if, say, a Soldier or Solarian is attacking the same target, the debuff from Flat Footed adds something in the neighborhood of +30 damage to their attack. Even someone who only does half the damage of a Soldier will still add +15 or so, and more than you lost by not full attacking.
And even without allies to take advantage of the debuff, Full Attack's advantage lies almost entirely in 17th level and higher. Assuming equal chances to hit to the above (since we lack CR 15 monsters), at level 15 the damage is around 46.875 for a Trick Attack and 47.7 for a Full Attack, and less than a point of difference even by yourself.
I'd say the mobility stuff is definitely worth it of you want to go that route. It's less so for a ranged character than a melee one, but still quite nice.
Now, a lot of these calculations change if you have an Envoy in the party with Clever Attack. At that point, your full attack damage goes way up and your default debuff is meaningless (since they're already flat footed). In this case, you're almost certainly gonna mostly be Full Attacking, but that's a specific situation.
The Multiattack Mastery Exploit also changes this calculus since it lets you apply your debuff after making a full attack...but the key word there is 'after', so your actual attack damages don't change. This is a valid damage booster if you don't mind not being mobile...but it's hardly the only 14th level Exploit that's goods, and +10 DPR in exchange for all your possible mobility isn't a trade I'd be inclined towards, to be honest. It's definitely worth it to inflict some of the nastier debuffs if you're already Full Attacking due to an Envoy, though.
It's an average damage mark, so the bonus to hit means you hit more frequently giving you a higher average damage.
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How does flat footed add 30 damage, I missed that somewhere?
MDC
An optimized 20th level Soldier or Solarian does about 300 damage on a full attack if all their attacks hit. Giving them +2 to hit (which is what Flat Footed does) increases their odds of hitting by 10% (say, from 50% to 60%) and thus increases their damage by around 30 (from 150 to 180 if going from 50% to 60%).
This is only true if you have such a character attacking the same foe as you, but that's not super hard to arrange.
How does flat footed add 30 damage, I missed that somewhere?
MDCAn optimized 20th level Soldier or Solarian does about 300 damage on a full attack if all their attacks hit. Giving them +2 to hit (which is what Flat Footed does) increases their odds of hitting by 10% (say, from 50% to 60%) and thus increases their damage by around 30 (from 150 to 180 if going from 50% to 60%).
This is only true if you have such a character attacking the same foe as you, but that's not super hard to arrange.
300!? I'm only getting about half that. How are you optimizing it to be getting that much, exactly?
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300!? I'm only getting about half that. How are you optimizing it to be getting that much, exactly?How does flat footed add 30 damage, I missed that somewhere?
MDCAn optimized 20th level Soldier or Solarian does about 300 damage on a full attack if all their attacks hit. Giving them +2 to hit (which is what Flat Footed does) increases their odds of hitting by 10% (say, from 50% to 60%) and thus increases their damage by around 30 (from 150 to 180 if going from 50% to 60%).
This is only true if you have such a character attacking the same foe as you, but that's not super hard to arrange.
Well, that's if all attacks hit, and at 20th level, but the Soldier build is as follows:
Melee: Str 28, Dimensional Slice Curveblade, Melee Striker. That gives 12d10+33 at 20th, which averages 99 damage. Multiplied by three, that's 297.
Ranged: Sharpshoot Fighting Style, Bullet Barrage, and a Reaction Cannon. At 20th, that gives 12d10+2d6+26, which is also an average of 99 damage, multiplied by three makes 297 damage again.
Solarian can't get nearly as high at range, but in melee can just have Str 28, grab Plasma Sheath, and Photon Mode with a Solar Weapon and 6d6 Crystal. That's 18d6+42, which is 105 damage, multiplied by three to 315. Grabbing a Dimensional Slice Curveblade replaces the 18d6 with 12d10 and ups that to 108 per attack and a total of 324, but that's usually not economical.
Most Solarians will have a bit less Str than that, but I'd still expect a 26 or so, which only downgrades damage by one point per hit.
Wow. For some reason I was thinking base weapon damage didn't go over 10 dice.
Hello everyone, I'm planning on playing an operative in our first campaign and like to get the most out of characters I play. I plan to max Dex and keep Int and Str competitive to be able to melee and fulfill the skill monkey role.
I'd like to know what people think about this build and if I should change anything. I'm open to all improvement suggestions.
Build:
Race: Android (Darkvision, Dex/Int, doesn't breathe, easier bluff, upgrade slot, and dump Cha). Biggest competition would be Ysoki for the cheek pouch swift action, stand up swift action, +5 tumble, and +2 to Engineering, Stealth, and Survival. Open to thoughts on these races or if there is another one I'm not considering.Theme: Ace Pilot. None of the themes seem amazing for optimization. Bounty Hunter and Outlaw also have interesting options. Open to suggestions here.
Stats: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8. Max dex for hit chance on all weapons, int for skill points, str for melee damage and grenade hit chance.
Specialization: Ghost. Skills Acrobatics and Stealth. +4 Stealth for trick attack (RAW). Cloaking field at level 5. This seems objectively the best but again open to opinions.
Skills: Acrobatics and Stealth from specialization. Other 10 ranks in: Athletics, Bluff, Computers, Engineering, Medicine, Perception, Piloting, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Surival. I considered switching Medicine for Mysitism to be able to deal with magical devices but I'd only have a mod of 2 which doesn't seem great. Could go priest theme to get Mysticism as a class skill...
Feat: Weapon Focus (Small Arms). I think ranged will be ideal at first. Later can pick up Versatile Focus to buff operative weapons and sniper rifles.
Gear: Second Skin, Tactical Semi-Auto Pistol (30 ft, 1d6), Tactical Baton. The small arm could also be the Azimuth Laser Pistol for the much better range of 80 but 1d4 damage dice. Curious what others think between these two starting weapons....
I think that is pretty optimized, I like the Stats, Specialization of course, skills and Gear but I think that the Ghost Specialization is useful at scouting and skill Monkey.
I'm making the pretty same build, just with different feat and Theme.
If you pick the Spacefarer theme, @6 you will get the Eager Dabbler ability that give to you a +2 UNTYPED Bonus on untrained skills that stack with the operative edge.
If you pick the Jack of All Trades Exploit, you will gain twice your edge in skills with no ranks.I'm Building Operative 3/Blitz 1/Operative the rest, looking at lvl 8 a +8 on skills with no ranks.
Picking Blitz, and Fleet @lvl 1, Mobility @lvl3 and Shot on the run @lvl5 and Jet Dash @7, you will look to get 70 ft speed and 420 on run, plus invisibility and make your trick attack on ranged while moving.
The most of the operative is scouting, retrieving informations and step away from melee or a lot of damage...
Useful Exploits: Alien Archive (No Ranks and +8 at lvl 8, or +17 Life Science or +14 Mysticism with 8 ranks), Jack of All Trades of course, Uncanny Mobility, Hampering Shot (if someone is trying to follow you) and Sure Footed.
It's pretty the same, but the true skill monkey scout.
Tell me if I made all right!
Thanks for reading it.
Edit: It's up to your GM to approve if Jack of All Trades and Alien Archive doubling your edge stack, if it will stack, you will get another +3 @lvl 8 to identify creatures...
Yeah, I did something similar as well with my skill monkey.