New rules applying to RotR seem unfair and not in the spirit


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


In a recent Paizo post about the new Skull & Shackles rules, Mike says We recommend that you use it as your main rules reference even if you're still playing Rise of the Runelords.

For the most part we don't have a problem with this but with regards to combat this seems pretty unfair. For example take Kyra's current weapon in our campaign:

Impaler of thorns

This says For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your strength or melee die +1d8 +2.

Now in the new rules, strength or melee die is taken to mean the DIE only of the applicable skill:

Rules: Skills, Dice and Modifiers

Take Kyra's current stats in our game.

So in the RotR rules for our campaign, Kyra can use Impaler of Thorns with a d6+3 + 1d8+2. However if we use the new S&S rules, Impaler of Thorns is just a d6 + 1d8+2, completely ignoring any skill buffs she has accrued along the way.

This applies for pretty much all weapons in RotR (at least up to deck 3) and possibly all attack spells etc.

It seems to us as a group that this new "apply the new rules to the old set" policy is pretty unfair and isn't in the spirit of Pathfinder which applies your new found skills to make your weapons deadlier as you grow in expertise. As it stands, Impaler of Thorns doesn't get any deadlier no matter how much Kyra practices with it!

Worth noting though that in Skull and Shackles, the new cards have been adjusted to take the new "die vs skill" rules into account so it feels like you're just punishing the RotR folk?

Phew longest post ever.

Thoughts?


The way I read it there is not actual change. It says that the +'s are still part of the melee check. If anything this is probably more of a clarification for weapons like the longbow, which probably says strength die rather than base strength die. As usual with such things when you try to simplify it can get more confusing.


In the same blog post, Mike talks about how cards are going to be worded differently in future releases. Impaler of Thorns would now say "For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Strength or Melee skill..."

It is easy for them to update the rulebook, but not so easy to update your cards. And I'm sure they don't intend the new way they are clarifying dice and skills to change anything about how cards in RotR worked before. Either make the "skills & dice" rule the one rule from S&S you don't apply to RotR or treat all your RotR cards that define a check like they say "skill" instead of "die".


Lantern wrote:
Worth noting though that in Skull and Shackles, the new cards have been adjusted to take the new "die vs skill" rules into account so it feels like you're just punishing the RotR folk?

You're not being punished, it's just that your old cards weren't updated to match the new rules/terminology. In RotR terminology, "die" and "skill" were used interchangeably, which is no longer the case. This does not mean that your old cards are now weaker, they just assume an outdated terminology. If they were printed at the same time as the new rules, they would say "use your xxx skill" instead of "roll your xxx die"; assume they do, and that "die" means "skill" and "unmodified die" means "die".

This is one exception; there are bound to be others. If something doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the game, it probably isn't.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

The "apply the new rules to the old set" should also assume that you take the new way of writing cards into account. If the Impaler of Thorns was to be printed now, it would say "For your combat check, reveal this card to roll your Strength or Melee check +1d8 +2."

So in other words, they never meant to punish anyone, they just updated their rules and cards for consistency. They can't magically go back and change your cards for you, so you've got to apply a bit of common sense to the cards.


Haha it's cool guys, i'm not attacking the game i'm just trying to get some clarity. Mike's suggesting we use the new rules, but he's not suggesting we make the requisite changes to our cards, so I just wanted to make sure how this was intended.

For what it's worth, we decided to not use the new rules for that specific usage and we were pretty sure that was what was meant to happen, but you know, when the designer of the game says "use the new rules" not "use the new rules but disregard the ones about die vs skill" you have to check!!

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Just FYI, we're going through all of RotR to update it for the Obsidian game. So whenever you find something like this, please let us know.


Thanks Mike, will do -- have you set up a specific thread for that or just make them as they come up?

Also, while I have your ear -- is that actually what you meant for this? That we do indeed disregard the new die vs skill rule for RotR and allow our buffs to improve our weapons/attacks?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Like I said elsewhere, we're still recombobulating from Gen Con, so we're taking a while to answer questions this week. We will catch up soon.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Hawkmoon269 wrote:

In the same blog post, Mike talks about how cards are going to be worded differently in future releases. Impaler of Thorns would now say "For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Strength or Melee skill..."

It is easy for them to update the rulebook, but not so easy to update your cards. And I'm sure they don't intend the new way they are clarifying dice and skills to change anything about how cards in RotR worked before. Either make the "skills & dice" rule the one rule from S&S you don't apply to RotR or treat all your RotR cards that define a check like they say "skill" instead of "die".

That. The new rules aren't intended to change the way anything actually works in any significant way—they're just making things more clear. You'll need to apply a dose of common sense when using new rules with old cards. For example, spells and other cards no longer have a recharge box, so the S&S rules don't tell you how to deal with it, but that doesn't mean you have to pretend it doesn't exist.


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Vic Wertz wrote:
You'll need to apply a dose of common sense..

this is such a good rule. I feel people can be incredibly obtuse sometimes

Sovereign Court

The_Napier wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
You'll need to apply a dose of common sense..
this is such a good rule. I feel people can be incredibly obtuse sometimes

Sadly the most important rule is often the most ignored.


Hey now I'm not being obtuse; like I said, we had assumed this was the case. Sometimes though it's nice to know actually what is intended rather than going "yeah this seems like it's wrong" and not checking.

Simple fact is, a post said "new rules apply to RotR" not "new rules apply to RotR but ignore X" so clarification was sought.

Ain't no need to be pulling out the obtuse bomb.

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